Gun Dog Forum

Would one of you gentlemen please share with me the definition of biddable?

It means to me a dog that is willing to listen and obey. Any definition with the word "obey" or even "submissive" in it would be accurate.

Willing to please.

When I say biddable, what I mean is a dog that handles in silence. I have to say nothing to the dog. If I make a 90, or even a 180 degree move, I want that dog in front of me within 60 seconds. If I say "whoa!" they whoa. If I say heel, they heel. A biddable dog is one that makes hunting a less stressful event. Dogs that have to constantly be called for/whistled for/etc. are not biddable in my book. I like my dog and I to be able to hunt in pure stealth.

It means a dog that is nice enough that if put up for auction, you would bid on=biddable

phermes1 wrote:Willing to please.

Then no dog is "biddable" then. A dog is not capable of knowing how to please but a dog that obeys is a pleasure.

To me a dog is exhibiting "biddable" behavior, when it does my bidding.

That means...to me... that it comes when I call, more or less directly and more or less right away. It goes where I send it again more or less directly and more or less in a hurry.

A biddable dog(to me) is one that will try to do what you ask it to do.

RayG

Doesn't NAVHDA use the term "Cooperation?"

mcbosco wrote:

phermes1 wrote:Willing to please.

Then no dog is "biddable" then. A dog is not capable of knowing how to please but a dog that obeys is a pleasure.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

Describing it in humans terms is not accurate. Dogs do things because they are conditioned for that behavior or they are submissive (or dominant) and its a natural behavior.

I would like to think that my dog jumps in a pond in January because it pleases me but the truth is when he was younger he got pieces of freeze dried tripe or a pat on the head for doing it. He still will nuzzle my jacket when he obeys.

I just don't buy that dogs really do things for you, they do many things for themselves, kinda of, without a human's thought process.

Dogs are genetically designed to please the Alpha dog. If you are the Alpha they please you so as to cement their worth to the pack.

There are genetically programmed to submit to the Alpha dog, but to say there is a cognitive process where "pleasing" as we know it comes in to play is a stretch.

I used to think that dogs didn't or couldn't think enough to want to please one either, but I've changed my mind 100%.
I own a dog that brings me little teeny tiny pieces of paper, unless you open his lips you can't see them. He is just pleased as punch to bring these to me, he is trying in his doggie way to make me happy. It's his way of sharing, of offering ME, the Boss, an offering if you will. If that's not trying to please me......

Biddable- wanting to go along with what you ask. It's sort of like porn- hard to describe but you'll know it when you see it.
Fuzz

fuzznut wrote: It's sort of like porn- hard to describe but you'll know it when you see it.

I turn the dog loose to hunt and it chooses to go with me. Criteria number one.
I can train the dog to do things it won't naturally do with a minimum of effort. Criteria number two.
That is all it takes to make a keeper. If it doesn't pass #1 I won't know if it makes #2 or not.

RayGubernat wrote:To me a dog is exhibiting "biddable" behavior, when it does my bidding.


RayG

Ditto.
By the definition of some in this post, a puppy would not be biddable, though it is trying it's "bleep" to do what is asked of them, but are not mature and experienced enough to know what it is you are asking it to do.

mcbosco wrote:There are genetically programmed to submit to the Alpha dog, but to say there is a cognitive process where "pleasing" as we know it comes in to play is a stretch.

+1

Charlie

The reason a dog does things to please you is because they get a reward for doing it. i.e. a pat on the head. A smile or laugh, a bird a retrieve, a treat. Or they do things to avoid disipline. They may be pleasing you but they are doing it for their end. IMHO

Biddable;
Easy handling, willing to work, willing to listen and follow commands either silently or verbally. Cooperative.

Rick

Well, seriously, if we really want to get down to it, all animals are 100% selfish, including humans. Dogs do things because they get treats. Or they obey because they don’t want to get punished. It’s all about either getting a reward or avoiding correction. I’m nice to my wife ‘cause I don’t like it when she’s ticked off. I mow the lawn because I don’t like seeing it 2 feet high. I let people into traffic in front of me because it’s nice and I just LIVE for the customary hand-wave/thank-you. We try to drive safely not solely out of regard for the drivers around us, but because accidents suck and injuries can really ruin your day. We help other people partly because it makes US feel good. If we got nothing out of it, chances are we wouldn’t be doing it quite as often. Don’t get me wrong, that doesn’t make it any less noble and I applaud those who go out of their way to help others, but let’s face it – that warm, fuzzy you get after helping an old lady change a flat tire on the side of the road is a definite part of the reason you stop to help.

So back to dogs – sure, they do things because it makes them feel good, or to avoid punishment, whatever. I say so what. My oldest dog that is absolutely thrilled to work with me – he actively looks for what exactly it is I want him to do, and he tries to do it. If he’s acting selfishly because nothing makes him feel better than me praising him at the end – then I’m totally fine with that. He’s still doing it, he’s still enjoying himself, he still makes my life easier, and we’re still working as a team. As far as I’m concerned, it’s all good. That attitude, regardless of the core motivation, is what I consider biddability.

Just another thread where we have turned a simple question into a, "what did he say that for" mess.

Biddable = Trainable. Some dogs are very trainable and some dogs aren't.

I'm sorry if that came across the wrong way. I guess my main point is that it's a little silly to debate the why's on this.

I still think the best post was the comparison to porn.

phermes1 wrote:I'm sorry if that came across the wrong way. I guess my main point is that it's a little silly to debate the why's on this.

I still think the best post was the comparison to porn.

What is this porn thing of which you speak?

Sorry also: as long as they do what you want, make you happy and are happy doing it then it does not matter why?

What is this porn thing of which you speak?

It's the reason Chuck Norris created the internet.

I thought Al Gore invented the INET. After his latest escapades I think it is true.

I'm pretty sure the porn reference is in regards to the famous words of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart writing on the pornography case Jacobellis vs. Ohio in 1964: "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it."

Greg J.

It is definitely not an obedience thing.

As you spend time with the dog, it is a knowing from both you and the dog, "a go along to get along", it is a highly desirable trait and comes from being handled by the master in special ways and the acceptance thereof.

Pepper

Hotpepper wrote:It is definitely not an obedience thing.

As you spend time with the dog, it is a knowing from both you and the dog, "a go along to get along", it is a highly desirable trait and comes from being handled by the master in special ways and the acceptance thereof.

Pepper

Right on the money. It is not obedience.

Greg Jennings wrote:I'm pretty sure the porn reference is in regards to the famous words of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart writing on the pornography case Jacobellis vs. Ohio in 1964: "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it."

Greg J.

I have a friend who is pretty quick with a comeback.One day he was at the video store in our small town,and one of the movies he picked out to watch was a porn movie.The guy at the counter stated to my friend,"I don't know how you watch that stuff",my friend quickly replied,"One handed".Still cracks me up

RayGubernat wrote:To me a dog is exhibiting "biddable" behavior, when it does my bidding.

That means...to me... that it comes when I call, more or less directly and more or less right away. It goes where I send it again more or less directly and more or less in a hurry.

A biddable dog(to me) is one that will try to do what you ask it to do.

RayG

Thanks to all for the responses, makes sense.

It's a good thing I used this word in my thread about Nature, Nurture or Training so you guys could define it over here. Now if you want to tell us if you think it is primarily due to inheritance, nurture or training please take those thoughts to the other thread. If you want to see what Hotpepper told me about it a few years ago, check it out.

live4point wrote: I have a friend who is pretty quick with a comeback.One day he was at the video store in our small town,and one of the movies he picked out to watch was a porn movie.The guy at the counter stated to my friend,"I don't know how you watch that stuff",my friend quickly replied,"One handed".Still cracks me up

Oh man ... soda just went everywhere. I'm gonna write that one down...

Brass,
Some real nice explanations of biddable here, here is what it means to us here at Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers. A dogs biddability to us is part of the dogs
instinctive hunting genetic imprint, that makes the dog smart enough & instinctive enough to hunt as a companion Grouse hunting dog. It is repetatively bred for, as part of the breed lines instinctive hunting imprint. A biddable dog must instictively hunt for the master without major discipline of any kind, and want to instinctively work for the master as part of a hunting team. The biddable dog must fit into the family home life, in the off season without causing trouble. There is defnitely more to this but
this is a wide over view of our requirements for a biddable gun dog.
RGD/Dave

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Brass,
A dogs biddability to us is part of the dogs
instinctive hunting genetic imprint, that makes the dog smart enough & instinctive enough to hunt as a companion Grouse hunting dog. It is repetatively bred for, as part of the breed lines instinctive hunting imprint. A biddable dog must instictively hunt for the master without major discipline of any kind, and want to instinctively work for the master as part of a hunting team.
RGD/Dave

My thoughts exactly RGD, to me this is because of the pack mentality that the alpha leads the hunt and they are their to just help. I dont think biddability of a dog has anything to do with its desire to please us, if that were true, then they would not chew the garden hose, jump on the kids, or bark when in the kennel, and ect. These are all things my dog knows I dont like, and yet he does them anyway.

George

George,
There are a lot of people who argue with me about this all the time, in my opinion the e-collar although a great training tool when used corretly, has allowed a lot of low grade gun dogs to be produced, who are very unbiddable, and are being controlled and repetatively disciplined with e-callars while actually hunting. If we have a mature trained gun dog who needs repetative discipline to keep him hunting with us, we know we have purchased the wrong kind of genetics for the Grouse hunting that we do here in our mountains. Having a biddable dog is a major part of having a great hunting companion, in our case it is one of several requirements that makes or breaks the
retention of the dog in our home/kennel. If by some chance a dog has been incorrectly chosen it is my responsibility to find that dog a good loving home, that it fits into properly, its not that the animal is bad it just does not meet the requirements of a companion gun dog, and gets a new loving home.
RGD/Dave

Another part of bidability, notice these two fully trained gun dogs are not raising all kinds of heck, as they sit in their cages as we hunt, even with two fine Grouse laying just outside their cages.
After many years we understand this is not just a matter of training, the dog who constantly throws up while riding and can not settle down
is not meeting our biddability requirements either. A dog can be hi-strung and still be biddable however, we do not expect this from puppies
but do demand this of our fully trained gun dogs, especially after the hunt. An owner should not be required to manage an unbiddable gun dog after they have hunted together all day, morning ect. The biddable gun dog should, upon command return to its cage and sit quietly, not give the master trouble especially when he is tired from hunting all day. Part genetics, part training all biddability.

My two definitions of biddable....

1) Exhibiting a willingness to try and do what is asked.

2) Tired

Mountaineer,

2. Tired - Adjective word meaning weary. Having a serious vocabulary I do get myself in trouble at times, but not this time.
There is a great deal of difference between tired and biddable.
RGD/Dave

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Mountaineer,

2. Tired - Adjective word meaning weary. Having a serious vocabulary I do get myself in trouble at times, but not this time.
There is a great deal of difference between tired and biddable.
RGD/Dave

Oh....ok, shoot I see now.
Thanks a bunch.
It's just that sometimes my dogs are tired and they lie quietly in their crates after hunting, even with birds within sniffing distance.
Here I have been thinking them biddable because they are tired...ie tired = biddable.
Even tired dogs will always jump and cavort in a crate with a dead bird nearby....unless they be biddable.
I'll have to learn the difference.

Mountaineer,
I do believe you like to argue just for the sake of arguing.
RGD/Dave

Arguing? or just trying to make sense of the incomprehensible.

mcbosco wrote:It means to me a dog that is willing to listen and obey. Any definition with the word "obey" or even "submissive" in it would be accurate.

I guess I'm slow, but it seems to me that obedience/submission can be achieved with almost any dog, regardless of their willingness to initially comply with a command. The difference is the amount of outside influence required to achieve that compliance.

'Dog A' will obey and submit to a command after multiple repetitions with much coaxing from frozen tripe or many corrections from an e-collar. 'Dog B' (B stands for Biddable) obeys and submits to the command after a few short repetitions with very little coaxing or correcting and maintains the training at a high level without having to be coaxed or corrected. In my mind either dog can certainly be trained to perform at very high levels, that has very little to do with biddability.

Biddability - A dog that does my bidding.

I do not see it as trainable. Most all dogs are trainable, but biddable seems to be constantly attentive to me, watching and waiting for my signals and quick to try to do what they think I want. Though often, if still untrained, their guess at what I am saying is wrong, but they'll keep trying anyway.
Unfortunatly, alot of dogs that people describe as biddable are actually very submissive, making them harder to train. They do constantly watch to see what I want, but over interpret my signals and respond with overly submissive actions rather than trying again to figure out what I meant. I do not think it is what biddable really implies, but I wonder if over breeding for biddabliity makes for overly sensitive soft dogs. Perhaps like overbreeding for sharpness can sometimes lead to dog aggressive dogs.

Well,

Here is my 2Cents, Wildrose Kennels, Seymore,Tx has some of the most Biddable dogs I have every seen, Thank you Charlie Rose, for some beautiful dogs.

Ok ! To me no matter what Breed of Dog I am working with it is the dogs willing ness to to do what is asked of him or her, and being attentive, and most of all the shear willness to please his or her Master/ Partner.

mountaindogs wrote:I do not see it as trainable. Most all dogs are trainable, but biddable seems to be constantly attentive to me, watching and waiting for my signals and quick to try to do what they think I want. Though often, if still untrained, their guess at what I am saying is wrong, but they'll keep trying anyway.
Unfortunatly, alot of dogs that people describe as biddable are actually very submissive, making them harder to train. They do constantly watch to see what I want, but over interpret my signals and respond with overly submissive actions rather than trying again to figure out what I meant. I do not think it is what biddable really implies, but I wonder if over breeding for biddabliity makes for overly sensitive soft dogs. Perhaps like overbreeding for sharpness can sometimes lead to dog aggressive dogs.

Very good post. Biddable is a dog that is a priest and you are his God. He/she is always trying to please/work with you. NOT submissive, bold and loving.

Birddogz,

Right on the money, Biddabdable and Submissive are not interchangable terms when speaking about gun dogs. A biddable bird dog can be either submissive or
bold, and still be biddable. In fact most Grouse hunters want a biddable bold dog who instinctively works as part of a hunting team. We train many of both type dogs and
a mans Individual preference can run to either dog, depending on the mans personallity. My brother Kurt likes a more biddable submissive Grouse dog, that matches his B typical personallity, I like a more bold biddable Grouse dog, which matches my A typical personality. In reality it changes the style of Grouse hunting we do. Neither one is more correect or better than the other, just different. Over Kurts hunting life time, he has taken just as many Grouse as I have, however we enjoy our animals in different ways, as they hunt. Some people believe the submissive dog is easier to train, I have found this not really to be true. There is nothing harder to work with than a passive dominant Grouse dog, who likes to play mind games with his master. I know this is getting a might complex, but this type of biddable passive dominant gun dog does exist, and they can be very very good Grouse dogs. Most times you find these dogs in the Setter breeds, but I have seen a few Britts and Weimars also.

RGD/Dave