crossing english and german pointer

itsturkeytime · Post by **itsturkeytime** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:47 am

i have a male german and a female english pointer i was thinking of crossing them both are average hunting dogs and wanted to see what everyones take on this is

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:55 am

Economics - In this day and age it is tough to sell purebred Pointers and GSPs I would bet it would be tougher to sell these. Unless you have 5-6 buyers I would think twice.
Why mix - There are a ton of great sires and dams out there, why the need to mix breeds? You stated they are average hunters. Breeders usually breed UP not horizontal or down. If mine and I sold them, I would make sure they will all be spayed or neutered.
Free Country - Ultimately it is your decision, but I bet if you were honest and weighed the pros and cons, your answer would be pretty loud and clear.

Again, this is just my humble opinion...since you posted, I figured you wanted to hear thoughts.

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:56 am

I am interested in why you would want to cross them as well.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:02 pm

If they are both "average", why would you breed them even if they were both the same breed. Breeding avg. to avg. won't get you better than avg. pups. Sorry. I think it is not a good decision at all personally. But I guess that is what you asked for, everyones take.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:02 pm

Not only why cross breed? There are plenty of mutts in the pounds to choose from. This also keeps anyone from being abel to play many games if one desired.
But why breed just average hunters unless you have people that want them?
Rick

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:08 pm

itsturkeytime wrote:i have a male german and a female english pointer i was thinking of crossing them both are average hunting dogs and wanted to see what everyones take on this is

Hey that might be a pretty good cross....not sure anyone has ever done it before though

itsturkeytime · Post by **itsturkeytime** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:28 pm

i was just thinking i like some of the traits from both dogs and i would not be selling the pups if i did just train and hunt them maybe give a few to freinds that have hunted behind both dogs it just dont sound like any one thinks it would be a good thing to do

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:33 pm

Ya just don't breed two average dogs. You breed the best.

bowhunter1221975 · Post by **bowhunter1221975** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:39 pm

I have a female gsp and she is in heat now i have her locked up tighter then a drum becuse i have a male english and he is a rock star in the feild but i would not think of crossing them she is a pup but showing promiss

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:44 pm

I will have to say most of the folks have the right Idea here, also when breeding you want to add to the Breed .
I have been doing Rescue work along time, I have seen Weims Crossed with a Poodle- Lab-GSP- Vizsla- Pit- Mastiff-Gr Dane
None of these added to the breed when they out live their cute ness we got them in Rescue or the pound got them.

SO, Unless you are ready to keep all those Pups and the Bitch could have as many as 12 and as small a litter as 2.

Please Think about it Before you Breed.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:13 pm

itsturkeytime wrote:i have a male german and a female english pointer i was thinking of crossing them both are average hunting dogs and wanted to see what everyones take on this is

TROLL

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:16 pm

Maverick57 wrote:I will have to say most of the folks have the right Idea here, also when breeding you want to add to the Breed .
I have been doing Rescue work along time, I have seen Weims Crossed with a Poodle- Lab-GSP- Vizsla- Pit- Mastiff-Gr Dane
None of these added to the breed when they out live their cute ness we got them in Rescue or the pound got them.

SO, Unless you are ready to keep all those Pups and the Bitch could have as many as 12 and as small a litter as 2.

Please Think about it Before you Breed.

Ditto! Thanks for the post.

I have a Vizsla/Perdigo here in rescue. She is a doll, but honestly, her mom shouldn't have been bred to the Perdigo.
Sad, really.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:50 am

Sir,
I will come right out and say it, your idea of cross breeding two average hunting dog stinks.
RGD/Dave

BrittGSP818 · Post by **BrittGSP818** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:17 am

As a mixed breed owner (gsp/brittany) I would say it is not a bad idea IF you have taken into consideration certain things. Not alot of people would like a mix breed, what charateristics will each pup inherit (could be the bad ones), and most importantly what will happen to them if no one takes them. With that said there are deffinately advantages to mix breeds, which is why I got my boy. He is 6 months and shows so much potential, he is everything I wanted in a hunting/companion dog. Living in LA I dont have alot of land or time to spend exercising him so I needed a calmer dog than a gsp, also I wanted a smaller dog. I got those and then some, he is a great retriever, pointer, and very biddable. He is also a great looking pup! Another plus is the price of the pups, with this economy many people that want just a hunting dog are not able to afford high priced champion bred pups, so a mix breed offers them a good chance of a good hunting dog at a low cost. It is ofcourse your decision but if you have taken everything into consideration then you shouldn't be dissapointed with your decision, what ever it may be.

George

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:42 am

Find someone with a male EP that is of good hunting stock and use him as a stud. Your freinds you were going to give a pup to will probley gladly pitch in to pay any stud fee. They get a low cost pup and possibility a better hunter. I would think carefully before you cross them but in the end your choice.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:41 pm

Nothing I would consider
All the world needs is another litter of mutts

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:01 pm

Not a good idea for several reasons. Just to touch on a couple that were already mentioned. You do not get a quieter calmer dog by cross breeding. For a matter of fact you do not get a better dog in any aspect. That doesn't mean that you wont get some nice pups that will hunt but you have lost all control of what genes will be passed to each puppy that controls size, type, color, or temperment. The advantage for the buyer of a cheaper pup is real but that means it is a disadvantage to the breeder since the pups will be worth little when time to sell them. If you dog is an average hunter it is questionable if you should ever breed her but if you did the only way it should ever be done is to a purebred dog within the same breed that is outstanding in most areas so at least we could hope the pups are better than mom. Just remember there is quite a bit of expense to raising a littler if you can't do most of the requirements yourself and there is also the possibility of unexpected expenses when unexpected problems arise. I will guarantee you that you will lose money on the whole thing before all of the pups are gone so be prepared to spend money producing some pups that have little value and unknown worth. Not a plan for success in my book.

Ezzy

BrittGSP818 · Post by **BrittGSP818** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:08 pm

I am not saying that this is a good idea but people need to stop bashing mixed breeds. After all, all those "purebreeds" where created through mixing breeds that share the characteristics of what one is lookinging for. The goal is to make a hunting dog. One more thing, contrary to ones belief you do get a better dog if you mix the right breeds, and if one breed is a calmer breed then that characteristic can pass down to its offspring. Maybe a biology lesson is needed for some. As a result, most if not all ididarod dogs are mix breeds, aswell as most hog dogs. This is because the mix produced characteristics that the purebreeds individually dont have. As long as the op is not looking to create a breed, which doesnt sound like he is, then there is no real problem. Just MHO.

George

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:33 pm

I really have not seen anyone bashing mixed breeds simply pointing out problems that face placing them in homes. When one thinks of the fact that only about around 25% of dogs that enter animal shelter are adopted, and the odds are even worse for a mixed breed pup it is not something that needs to be done. Sure none of the pups in this coupling may end up in a shelter but why even encourage it at any time. Many of the people on this forum run FT's and hunting tests with their dogs for this you need papers. Other people like myself that want pets first and hunting dogs second opt to adopt our dogs from shelters. Still other are breeders that work to improve the breeds they work with by selective breeding to weed out health and behaivor problems. All are important to keep the demand for good dogs strong so that breeders will be carefull and mate only the best avialable dogs and as dog loving loving group of people we try and find homes for the ones that for some reason where left to fend for themselfs. So no one is bashing mix breed dogs just pointing out why it is not a good from their experience.

BrittGSP818 · Post by **BrittGSP818** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:03 pm

I generalized by saying "people" but I was directing it towards this quote, "For a matter of fact you do not get a better dog in any aspect." I didnt see the "fact" that was spoken that is why I brought up my facts to support my stance.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:00 pm

The stance that dogs don't get better in any aspect references specifically the genetic influence that makes dogs what they are today. The time frame escapes me, but there is a theory that states if you left a number of pure bred dogs of any breed on a deserted island to hunt and forage for themselves, in X number of years their look and their behavior would be more wolf and feral like than it would look like a domesticated dog.

Pointing, retrieving, tracking, etc... Are behaviors that have been cultivated via genetics. Perpetuating genetics is a matter of odds and dogs from similar genetic backgrounds have a much greater opportunity of matching the proper genes to enhance or maintain a given trait. The more successful dogs of any breed are arguably a product of line breeding, unfortunately the less desirable genetic traits are also enhanced this way including health issues which is why many people that are heavily involved either as volunteers or pros are very concerned when pairings are made without the proper foresite and background for breeding.

The point is that a multi-breed outcross is a crap shoot. While you may love the individual behaviors of both dogs combining them in one would take generations of breeding to capture and a great deal of "culling" to achieve. If it happened otherwise it is truly lightening in a bottle. The question was a legitimate one and sometimes the answer and or the delivery of the answer aren’t what we hope for on the WWW. I do truly believe that most aren't meaning to be critical of an outcross, more to the point they are trying to accentuate the importance of good breeding in the gun dog world that keeps dogs out of the pound and in the hands of those that can help them perform in the manner they were bred for.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:14 pm

What if it goes badly? What if your female has to have a c-section, or one of the puppies dies during pregnancy and infection sets in in the uterus. If your plans were to give away the pups, then you could end up with a $1500 vet bill, that is required to save the life of your Momma dog -- And then even if you do the surgery and pay the money you may still end up with 10 puppies that are near impossible to sell for money and you'll still be giving them away. It might take longer than you think to find homes. You already have to get their shots, wormers, heartworm prevention all started to keep them healthy, but if you have some until 3-4 months you'll have to continue all that for each puppy. Also if you have them longer, do you really have the space and time for 12-14 dogs with puppies being very needy and growing fast?
There is so much that can happen that you can't plan for. There is alot of risk, and good breeders try hard to be prepared. They only breed when the feel it is an asset to the world, not just more puppies. In this world with so many unwanted dogs, bringing about 10 + more puppies is a big descision not to be taken lightly. If you are going to breed any dog you need to be able to deal with these issues, and also be able to deal with issues later. Say you give 2 puppies to a buddy and another to a co-worker, and then still have several. Then the buddy ends up getting a divorce and moves to an apartment where he can't keep the 2 puppies that might be now 6 months old. Are you going to take them back? You might still have 2 adults and several 6 month old puppies still and now you take in 2 more. Or can you tell him no, and watch those puppies go to another horrible home or the shelter?
Think. Think about it all, and make the best choice. A lot of lives are in you hands and if you are bringing them into the world,t hen you are taking on alot of responsibilty. It could go well, but what if not! It's a bigger descision than you may think, and not one to be taken lightly.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:24 pm

BrittGSP818 wrote:I generalized by saying "people" but I was directing it towards this quote, "For a matter of fact you do not get a better dog in any aspect." I didnt see the "fact" that was spoken that is why I brought up my facts to support my stance.

That is my quote and I will stick to just that. You get some different characteristics but the litter as a whole will not be better than the breeds theat were used. When you said your Gsp/ Brit pup was calmer than a GSP that may be true as an individual but not because it was crossed with a Britt that is smaller and as a breed probably are more hyper than the GSPs. That is my point. And I do understand genetics and I understand why and how crossbreds might differ or a few of them be better for some special purpose. But in most cases the purebreds will be the best performers and certainly produce a much higher percentage of good performers.

It's fine to gambvle but it is not smart to do it intentionally when there are much better options. And this isn't bashing crossbreds but reather just stating fact that has been proved over the centuries.

Ezzy

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:46 pm

As far as money goes, they get $1500 for a Labradoodle...so it reall only a marketing challenge

I find the thought to be really a compliment to the german dogs...think about this....120 years ago, there were a bunch of German using the Pointer and other breeds to develop something for their needs. Not it appears that the Pointer folks are ready to do the same!!!!!!

Talk to some of the field trial folks....they may be able to put you onto some breeding in that direction that has already taken place.

M1Tanker · Post by **M1Tanker** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:39 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Ya just don't breed two average dogs. You breed the best.

Ditto

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:54 pm

I have heard of some research that you could possibly create a dog with a more well rounded and stronger immune system as well as perhaps eliminating some of the problems that some breeds are predisposed toward such as hip dysplasia and glaucoma, etc. by crossbreeding. I am not a supporter of crossbreeding, just stating that I had read some research concerning this.

For all of you out there that say that you only breed best to best, when was the last time you bred your world champion female to THE world champion stud not just A champion or some winner of some local trials or a dog that has passed some field tests but the THE UNDISPUTED CHAMPION OF THE WORLD TRIAL OR HUNTING DOG? That is the only way to breed best to best. I do not support breeding a couple of dogs of different breeds that are average hunters but don't blow smoke up some new guy's a$$ either. If everyone only bred the best dog to the best dog then there would need to be a way to establish which female and which male were the 2 best in the world and then there would be very few people that ever got to own those dogs much like in the middle ages when only royalty owned the BEST hunting dogs. On top of that that would severely diminish the gene pool. The BEST is very subjective and is based solely on opinion unless you breed 2 undisputed world champion dogs. JMO.

BrittGSP818 · Post by **BrittGSP818** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:33 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:I have heard of some research that you could possibly create a dog with a more well rounded and stronger immune system as well as perhaps eliminating some of the problems that some breeds are predisposed toward such as hip dysplasia and glaucoma, etc. by crossbreeding. I am not a supporter of crossbreeding, just stating that I had read some research concerning this.

For all of you out there that say that you only breed best to best, when was the last time you bred your world champion female to THE world champion stud not just A champion or some winner of some local trials or a dog that has passed some field tests but the THE UNDISPUTED CHAMPION OF THE WORLD TRIAL OR HUNTING DOG? That is the only way to breed best to best. I do not support breeding a couple of dogs of different breeds that are average hunters but don't blow smoke up some new guy's a$$ either. If everyone only bred the best dog to the best dog then there would need to be a way to establish which female and which male were the 2 best in the world and then there would be very few people that ever got to own those dogs much like in the middle ages when only royalty owned the BEST hunting dogs. On top of that that would severely diminish the gene pool. The BEST is very subjective and is based solely on opinion unless you breed 2 undisputed world champion dogs. JMO.

EXACTLY!
Just because a dog is a mix breed does not indicate that it will be of lesser quality then the purebreeds that made it. If anything it could be better. Its all genectics, if they are pointing dogs then the pointing gene is in both parents, and therefore, will be passed down to its offspring, not matter what the breeds are. I have seen quite a few purebreeds that most will consider as a wash out, and they came from good hunting stock. Its all genetics, the breed has very little to do with it. This is how the purebreeds came about in the beginning, people saw a characteristic they liked, found another dog that had that characteristic as well, and they breed them. There was no concept of a purebreed at the time, just a concept of what they were looking for.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:58 pm

Sorry Hip dysplsia is in all breeds and even hybrid dogs
http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html in truth of a list of 157 breeds which have had a minimum of 100 dogs evaluated Hybrid aka mutt dog are listed 31 the number one dog for HD issues is the Bulldog
the English setter is listed as 50 and the Brittany 58 the pointer is at this time listed at 105

where a breed is listed will change some as more dogs are evaluated the lower down the list the better

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:44 pm

I wasn't going to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, but here goes...

tommyboy72 wrote:For all of you out there that say that you only breed best to best, when was the last time you bred your world champion female to THE world champion stud not just A champion or some winner of some local trials or a dog that has passed some field tests but the THE UNDISPUTED CHAMPION OF THE WORLD TRIAL OR HUNTING DOG? That is the only way to breed best to best. I do not support breeding a couple of dogs of different breeds that are average hunters but don't blow smoke up some new guy's a$$ either. If everyone only bred the best dog to the best dog then there would need to be a way to establish which female and which male were the 2 best in the world and then there would be very few people that ever got to own those dogs much like in the middle ages when only royalty owned the BEST hunting dogs. On top of that that would severely diminish the gene pool. The BEST is very subjective and is based solely on opinion unless you breed 2 undisputed world champion dogs. JMO.

TELL EM REVERAND TOMMYBOY!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:24 pm

When you decide to breed any dog to any dog, you basically are telling those in various breed organizations to kiss off. I sure as heck am not going to put my sweat and $$$ into a mutt program and other won't either. So you'll be on your own or waiting for the "crumbs" to fall of the table...or does anyone honestly think you just go to the GSP Nationals and ask the winners to breed their dogs to your mutts....heh maybe it will work.

You need people to build a good pool for breeding stock....so what do they get for helping you???

Dumb discussion....the Pointer has been bred with the GSP more than once...so why would this be new???

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:19 am

JKP wrote:When you decide to breed any dog to any dog, you basically are telling those in various breed organizations to kiss off. I sure as heck am not going to put my sweat and $$$ into a mutt program and other won't either. So you'll be on your own or waiting for the "crumbs" to fall of the table...or does anyone honestly think you just go to the GSP Nationals and ask the winners to breed their dogs to your mutts....heh maybe it will work.

You need people to build a good pool for breeding stock....so what do they get for helping you???

Dumb discussion....the Pointer has been bred with the GSP more than once...so why would this be new???

It would be assinine to assume the majority (or I) think your aforementioned post about breeding "any dog to any dog" is okay. I"m a breeder, and I would never do that. Nor would any self respecting person do this in regard to the welfare and future well being of the said animal or prospective buyer of the animal.

I agreed with tommyboy's statement of opinion 100% regarding the "only breeding the best to the best" nonsence. That's one of the stupidest statement's ever.

I would have said a person should be "breeding to meet (or more preferably) exceed the breed standard" If a person would have coined that phrase, I would've agreed with it 100%.

I believe that the guy might not have the best idea in mind, (to put it mildly) but we don't need to feed this guy Rabbit Sh*t and tell him its M&M's either. JMO

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:03 am

tommyboy72 wrote:
For all of you out there that say that you only breed best to best, when was the last time you bred your world champion female to THE world champion stud not just A champion or some winner of some local trials or a dog that has passed some field tests but the THE UNDISPUTED CHAMPION OF THE WORLD TRIAL OR HUNTING DOG? That is the only way to breed best to best. I do not support breeding a couple of dogs of different breeds that are average hunters but don't blow smoke up some new guy's a$$ either. If everyone only bred the best dog to the best dog then there would need to be a way to establish which female and which male were the 2 best in the world and then there would be very few people that ever got to own those dogs much like in the middle ages when only royalty owned the BEST hunting dogs. On top of that that would severely diminish the gene pool. The BEST is very subjective and is based solely on opinion unless you breed 2 undisputed world champion dogs. JMO.

Just for clarification:
since when do titles make the best dogs?
When BEST is limited to ability are we really doing a breed justice?

The BEST for one bitch may be a poor choice for another.

Pryor Creek Okie · Post by **Pryor Creek Okie** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:42 am

tommyboy72 wrote: For all of you out there that say that you only breed best to best, when was the last time you bred your world champion female to THE world champion stud not just A champion or some winner of some local trials or a dog that has passed some field tests but the THE UNDISPUTED CHAMPION OF THE WORLD TRIAL OR HUNTING DOG? That is the only way to breed best to best. I do not support breeding a couple of dogs of different breeds that are average hunters but don't blow smoke up some new guy's a$$ either. If everyone only bred the best dog to the best dog then there would need to be a way to establish which female and which male were the 2 best in the world and then there would be very few people that ever got to own those dogs much like in the middle ages when only royalty owned the BEST hunting dogs. On top of that that would severely diminish the gene pool. The BEST is very subjective and is based solely on opinion unless you breed 2 undisputed world champion dogs. JMO.

Maybe we could use the BCS computers to decide the two best dogs!

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:00 am

i'm just wondering, and out of pure curiosity... where did all of our current breeds come from?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:36 am

Shortfat

Of course they began through multi breed crosses over a number of generations and then through selective line breeding of the animals with the sought after attributes. So somebody bred a cross for a legitimate purpose and then refined it. Evolution takes time whether through natural selection or selective breeding.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:43 am

Lets get back to the point. If this guy had all the pups spoke for and both dogs were great hunting dogs. Do it. Go crazy. Neuter and spay the pups and sell em to your buddies. BUT!!!!!!!! The owner said that these are avg. dogs!!! For crying out loud the dogs are avg. even in the owners eyes, which means they probably aren't worth a lick. And BTW, 95% chance this is just Trolling by this post. Half the GSP, ES, and some Vizslas have pointer in them. Before DNA who knows what was going on. And these dogs are out winning trials.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:02 am

SHORTFAT wrote:i'm just wondering, and out of pure curiosity... where did all of our current breeds come from?

They came from the need to have a canine do a job or help with a job, that existing breeds could not do well enough.

Do you think this guy is planning to embark on a life lonng mission to create some type of hunting dog that can not be best met by existing breeds? Do you think his goal is to fill a gap that is missing? Do you think he has planned to choose the healthiest, best dogs, and is willing and able to keep them all and select for the best traits, and cull (we'll say ethically by spaying or neutering each one) the ill and poorest traits? Why aren't all the pointer/GSP accidentals that are in shelters and rescues becoming the nations next fad? Can you honestly tell me that he has some form of hunting need that other breeds can't accomplish with tremendous skill?

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:20 am

mountaindogs wrote:Do you think this guy is planning to embark on a life lonng mission to create some type of hunting dog that can not be best met by existing breeds? Do you think his goal is to fill a gap that is missing? Do you think he has planned to choose the healthiest, best dogs, and is willing and able to keep them all and select for the best traits, and cull (we'll say ethically by spaying or neutering each one) the ill and poorest traits? Why aren't all the pointer/GSP accidentals that are in shelters and rescues becoming the nations next fad? Can you honestly tell me that he has some form of hunting need that other breeds can't accomplish with tremendous skill?

mountaindogs... didn't mean to rile anyone and I don't pretend to know anything... but I did pose the question for a reason. I think the answer to his original question is obvious. They are only average dogs according to the owner and there is nothing to be gained by crossing them. I would think there are plenty of pets to be found already. I personally trust the breeding to those more knowledgable than I and will not breed my EP runt even tho' she's beautiful and shows lots of potential as a hunter... I hope his questions have been answered. sometimes, it's not just a question of purely right or wrong, but what is best...

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:08 am

This post was started to cause arguments, no one in there right would do this breeding, and anyone defending it (BrittGSP818) needs a reality check.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:03 am

In the case of pointing dogs I do not see the necessity of crossbreeding 2 different breeds of dogs because as has been stated you can get what you are looking for in one of the purebred strains easily.

On the other side of the coin though in the case of waterfowling I could see the desire to breed a lab and a chessie. Both have fantastic retrieving drive but most of the chessies I have ever been around have the personality of a log where as most of the labs I have ever been around are very outgoing, personable, family type dogs. If you were to live on the east coast and were hunting sea ducks and wanted a hardier, more robust, harder dog that could retrieve in very cold, rough water but a dog that was a family type dog at home I could see crossing these 2 breeds but in the case of crossing 2 pointing breeds I don't see a need in it just didn't care much for the "only breed best to best statement".

BrittGSP818 · Post by **BrittGSP818** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:08 am

BrittGSP818 wrote:I am not saying that this is a good idea but people need to stop bashing mixed breeds. After all, all those "purebreeds" where created through mixing breeds that share the characteristics of what one is lookinging for. The goal is to make a hunting dog. One more thing, contrary to ones belief you do get a better dog if you mix the right breeds, and if one breed is a calmer breed then that characteristic can pass down to its offspring. Maybe a biology lesson is needed for some. As a result, most if not all ididarod dogs are mix breeds, aswell as most hog dogs. This is because the mix produced characteristics that the purebreeds individually dont have. As long as the op is not looking to create a breed, which doesnt sound like he is, then there is no real problem. Just MHO.

George

ACooper, if you had read my posts thoroughly then you would know that I am not "defending" this idea (read my previous post above), just saying that just because a dog is a mix breed doesnt not mean it is of lesser quality or of no quality. Plus, who are we to say a person is right or wrong in choosing to breed or to what type they should breed them to. All we can do is let people know the pros and cons and I think many posts have done just that, but some people are going beyond that.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:37 am

Designer breeds are not about need but about either ego or money. Labradoodles, CocKapoos and Great Shitz (cross between Shitzu and a Great Dane!!) aren't about doing anything good for the dog world.

If someone can't find the dog they need and the serious breeder that wants to breed it...among all the working breeds today...and the various interpretations of those breeds...in all the various formats.....adapted for all the parts of this country....they most likely haven't left the house.

I agree...this was a Troll chumming the water...stupid thing is that the Pointer has been crossed into all the german breeds at one time or another and some of them not all that long ago....some folks just want to recreate the wheel and call it magic.

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:41 pm

I think that some people are coming down a little hard on this issue. The guy wants a good hunting dog, if he is happy with the way his dogs hunt so be it.

I am not saying that I agree, just some people can not spend the money to get the "Best." Which someone else already covered that topic so I will not go into it. (see Tommyboy72 post)

Also, I think that we all now this would not be the first time these 2 breeds have been put together. Sometimes I have a real hard time distinguishing a "purebred" GSP from an EP.

Brandon

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:55 pm

The point is that there is no reason to breed two average dogs. Especially not when there are outstanding pups out there right now for $300-$400.

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:52 pm

Check with your local shelter or rescue and see how many crossbred hunter based dogs they have in stock. They adopt them out for anywhere from $50 to $300 with shots, spay or neuter, probably a report on their disposition, maybe housetrained and socialized. They also adopt out purebreds for the same price, some with papers. Why deliberately produce more. It has been mentioned that pups are expensive, if done right. Chances are you won't make money on them. What do you do with left over pups?
If you intend to leave them at a rescue, they frequently want a donation to cover their costs to clean up your problem. Take a look at Petfinder.com sometime.

I saw a mention of $1500 for labradoodles. Also available in shelters for low dollars. I saw an ad for labs-$2000. Not AKC or any respectable registry, no show or field titles mentioned. Just lots of pups. No hips, eyes, EIC or any testing. P.T. Barnum was right.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:43 pm

I can understand someone wanting to breed 2 dogs that belong to them, that they raised, trained and hunted but if he says they are just average then there is probably really no need to breed them. If they were 2 exceptional dogs that would never be trialed because the owner does not trial therefore the venue was not there to showcase their talents and there was a huge demand from friends and the local public for pups out of these 2 exceptional dogs simply for hunting then perhaps yes. The entire reason I found this website was because I had some "droppers" from my Elhew Jefferson pointer male and my Ragged Hill Nip setter female. Both good bloodlines and both very good hunters. The breeding was unintentional and when I asked questions about it I was almost crucified on this website. The members of this website along with some very good friends made me realize the error that had occurred but give the guy a break. Sometimes people just don't understand the harm in it until they really begin to delve deep into the birddog world and to learn more about it from the trialing aspect, the hunting aspect and the breeding and training side of it. Just cut him some slack. He was just asking a question. Sometimes good things can come from unexpected bad events. I found this website and am very happy to be a contributing member and the only reason I found it was because of a litter of crossbred pups who by the way all went to very good hunting homes and made excellent hunting dogs for those people. The problem with crossbreeding pointers and GSP's and Setters is you can't tell them from the purebreds at least you couldn't with my droppers. They all looked like purebred pointer pups and there unscrupulous people out there that will sell them like that and register the litter to a purebred female. Some home breed registries have even allowed EP's to be bred into select litters in order to bring back the hunting traits at least that is what some of the info. I read stated i.e. the Red Setter and English Setter registries. If I am incorrect then I apologize but I am just stating some of what I have read. I can't even remember where I read it but I will look and see if I can find it and post it if anyone is interested.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:40 pm

Pryor Creek Okie wrote:Maybe we could use the BCS computers to decide the two best dogs!

On a really bad day where I don't think I've smiled once, that made me chuckle.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:11 pm

Made me laugh too but I happen to like watching the BDC and would someday like to compete in it.

Sorry I know everyone here hates it and is a big proponent of NAVDHA, NSTRA, and NBHA venues but I like the simplicity of the BDC forum. No finds without shooting, no looking for a 12 o'clock tail, no grading based on the look of the dog while it is on point, nobody accusing judges of being partial other dogs and competitors, no points without retrieves just a dog finding as many birds as they can in alloted amount of time, pointing those birds, the handler shooting those birds, and the dog retrieving the birds back to the handler, fastest time wins. Sorry guys I know you hate it but I like the idea behind it. I don't like the running by the shooters, the poor flying birds, throwing birds in the air and shooting them, etc. I think the venue could use some refining but I like the general idea of it. Please no tomatoe throwing.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:17 pm

I went to a BDC event once in Reno, Nv. It wasn't my cup of tea but it was very well attended and had a loyal following. I think any support that those competitive venues can get is positive. I do not like the televising of it...the running and timed nature of killing animals as quickly as you can comes across distasteful to the masses and that is bad business for us.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:23 pm

...and it was fun to watch live