GSP Line Generalizations

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GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:53 am

Realizing that they are gross generalizations, the Miller pointers have a rep for being big running and for toughness while the Elhew have a rep for style and biddability.

So what gross generalizations can you provide about shorthair lines?

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by ACooper » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:10 am

Hustler dogs are soft boot lickers but make good "foot hunting" dogs, Rusty dogs have more natural run and less natural point, clown dogs are more versatile than other "FT" lines but will sometimes throw a rouge run off. Pottseipen dogs run more than most other german lines but are hyper.

These are some that I have heard over the years that I can think of right off the top of my head.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Chaingang » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:17 am

There are Hustler dogs out there that are definitely not boot lickers I can assure you that.

I have always equated Hustler bred dogs (at least ones heavily so) to be very biddable and easy to train. Very comfortable to walk behind and they hunt for the gun which is important to me. Most will back naturally and retrieve etc.. Albeit some can be a little on the softer side depending on the breeding, but in no way a puddle of mush.

Just an observation.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by mcbosco » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:30 am

What are the physical differences in the lines. The GSP's I am used to are fairly good-sized dogs, blocky heads with pretty heavy bone. Is there a GSP line equivalent to a Ryman Setter? Do you find geographical differences, East - vs -South -vs -West?

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:52 am

I've always heard that Hustler was biddable and had a terrific nose but was soft and needed to be crossed with tougher stuff.

I've not heard that Clown stuff was more versatile in the NAVHDA sense. If you look at NAVHDA lines many are Hustler based.

I'm interested in hearing about some of the western dogs. I haven't heard much about Rockin Rollin Billy, etc.

Greg J.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Ditch__Parrot » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:46 am

nvm
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Chaingang » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:39 am

mcbosco wrote:What are the physical differences in the lines. The GSP's I am used to are fairly good-sized dogs, blocky heads with pretty heavy bone. Is there a GSP line equivalent to a Ryman Setter? Do you find geographical differences, East - vs -South -vs -West?
Big body with blocky heads is describing the old time GSP look from years ago. Somewhat of a hound look more or less. Today you might be describing a dog with a lot of german blood or maybe a DK as they would probably more closely resemble the old time traditional look.
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by rollick » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:10 am

I sure miss those good old-timey GSP's...

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:30 am

I grew up hunting quail with pointers and setters. I'm talking in the mid 60's through 1980. The GSPs that I saw then were heavy, hound-bodied plodders that were hard-headed and surly tempered. They didn't fit our hunting very well.

So, I just don't have a good feeling for old-timey GSPs. Like the latter-day version much better.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:42 am

Since we are on generalizations...it appears that many of the popular 'dual or continental breeds", well maybe all pointing breeds. Seem to have a definite evolution going on? Field bred dogs in most breeds are getting more athletic through selective breeding or other arguable methods. I was at a local pros place yesterday morning using his grounds and walked over to his chain gang. There were 5 GSP's on it and he was training them for HT and hunting dogs. Three looked like the GSP's I am used to seeing, well defined, shorter ears, etc...the other two belonged to some local show dog folks I have met that are extremely nice but I had never seen their dogs. They looked like 1/2 hound to me. They were big, blockier heads, long ears...and had to really be coaxed to like birds... :D

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by markerdown » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:26 am

I like that old school, big boned, short back, blocky headded, long eared, hound looking GSPs. That pretty much describes the attributes of the v grief line. I found mine to be a close hunter, soft mouth, easy to train and with a passion for water. :mrgreen:
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by BigShooter » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:34 am

Throwing a little water on the party, we've already talked about dogs or lines so far back their blood is diluted to the point of hardly being able to call it a line or even be able to declare substantial enough influence on present dogs. What are the real lines of today with active breeders that have been doing some serious line breeding?
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Dirtysteve » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:39 am

I think you could now call Cecil a line of his own even though he comes by way of saddle.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:57 am

Dirtysteve wrote:I think you could now call Cecil a line of his own even though he comes by way of saddle.
I concur and I have a healthy respect for what I've seen of Cecil's get.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Ditch__Parrot » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:48 pm

In my earlier post I was poking a bit of fun at the ridiculousness of some of the generalizations of the lines within the breed. Whilst giving a bit of compliment to a few people's dogs on the forum. As well as express my gratitude for the fine breeding of one of my own.

It occurs to me now that these line generalizations are being taking more seriously than I would have thought. So please accept my apologies for disrupting Greg's thread. I'll go back to lurking in the corner now.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by ACooper » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:01 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Realizing that they are gross generalizations, the Miller pointers have a rep for being big running and for toughness while the Elhew have a rep for style and biddability.

So what gross generalizations can you provide about shorthair lines?
Ditch__Parrot wrote:In my earlier post I was poking a bit of fun at the ridiculousness of some of the generalizations of the lines within the breed. Whilst giving a bit of compliment to a few people's dogs on the forum. As well as express my gratitude for the fine breeding of one of my own.

It occurs to me now that these line generalizations are being taking more seriously than I would have thought. So please accept my apologies for disrupting Greg's thread. I'll go back to lurking in the corner now.

[/]
I agree I figured this would be a fun thread, per the orginal post we were talking "gross generalizations".

I never said clown dogs were succesful in navhda, what I said was I have heard they were more versatile than the other FT lines. BTW I own hustler dogs and am aware they are not all boot lickers.

Man can anyone have fun or are you all just fun haters???? :lol:

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by kensfishing » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:09 pm

Ditch__Parrot wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:So what gross generalizations can you provide about shorthair lines?
:mrgreen: Any with the words " VD Himmel" "Gamble's" or "Snip's" in the pedigree are bad A$$!!! :P

Clown dogs are runoffs, Rusty dogs won't live past 5, With Saddle dogs you'll need a fast horse and Slick dogs are tough as nails and like 100 degree days. Oh ya and anything too "German" has a bad habit of eating little kids for fun :roll: :oops: :roll:
Some Clown dogs are runoffs and some are not. I've hunted behind a Clown son for over ten years, big running dog, yes . Slick dogs are tuff as nails. I own and finished a Grand son of Clown on top and Grandson of Slick on bottom. Big running dog on horse back and foot hunt him all over the country. Az. on four species of quail, chukar pheasant and every thing else in the west and midwest. He throws great pups with natuarl bidability. As far a Rusty is concerned, I own a male who's line bred top and bottom. He's going on eleven and one of the best wild bird dogs I've ever owned. I also owned the Popsiepen, great with kids and very protective of family.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Ditch__Parrot » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:18 pm

kensfishing wrote:
Ditch__Parrot wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:So what gross generalizations can you provide about shorthair lines?
:mrgreen: Any with the words " VD Himmel" "Gamble's" or "Snip's" in the pedigree are bad A$$!!! :P

Clown dogs are runoffs, Rusty dogs won't live past 5, With Saddle dogs you'll need a fast horse and Slick dogs are tough as nails and like 100 degree days. Oh ya and anything too "German" has a bad habit of eating little kids for fun :roll: :oops: :roll:
Some Clown dogs are runoffs and some are not. I've hunted behind a Clown son for over ten years, big running dog, yes . Slick dogs are tuff as nails. I own and finished a Grand son of Clown on top and Grandson of Slick on bottom. Big running dog on horse back and foot hunt him all over the country. Az. on four species of quail, chukar pheasant and every thing else in the west and midwest. He throws great pups with natuarl bidability. As far a Rusty is concerned, I own a male who's line bred top and bottom. He's going on eleven and one of the best wild bird dogs I've ever owned. I also owned the Popsiepen, great with kids and very protective of family.
Exactly :wink:
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:56 pm

I don't see anyone doing a better job of breeding and producing good dogs than Brenda and Rick at Walnut Hill. Looks like they have stuck pretty much to the Hustler dogs and the results have been outstanding in the show ring or in the the field trialing or hunting for the average hunter. Just plain outstanding dogs that are bred to be the complete GSP.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by lvrgsp » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:13 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:I think you could now call Cecil a line of his own even though he comes by way of saddle.
I would say that would be an honest statement Brandon.
Although Cecil came by way of Saddle he was not your typical or producing Saddle type dog, he has had a great influence in alot of breeding programs. One thing about Cecil was he was in a program where alot his get were trained and evaluated under one training program, whether it was navhda, nstra, ft, ht, they were able to be developed in an array of different venues and evaluated to further the breeding program. One in particular crossing was that of Cecil x Hoosier Buddy, to me it is the perfect combination of dog for my application, you get the exceptionally hard pointing, backing from Cecil and the famous nose and patience on game from Hoosier Buddy. It has also been my experience that alot of Hoosier Buddy get fully develop there legs once they hit about 3 years old, they also seem to me to be a great house dog with intelligence and a calm demeanor around the family. As evident by my own dogs and the litter I just had which is a doublebred Buddy x Girdy and 4 or 5 can't remember shots of Cecil, they seem to be the perfect fit for me, it was a very consistant cookie cutter type litter, now we'll have to wait and see if thats gonna be good or bad :D

I also had a Chicoree Hickory Doc x Greif bitch bred male that was very natural point and retrieve hated to back and exceptionally hard headed and had what I call a blue collar nose not the best by far but he always produced birds.....

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I don't see anyone doing a better job of breeding and producing good dogs than Brenda and Rick at Walnut Hill. Looks like they have stuck pretty much to the Hustler dogs and the results have been outstanding in the show ring or in the the field trialing or hunting for the average hunter. Just plain outstanding dogs that are bred to be the complete GSP.

Ezzy
Their dogs are crossed out as I mentioned earlier. Rip was a Hustler x Wildburg. Rick's have other influences as well.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:28 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I don't see anyone doing a better job of breeding and producing good dogs than Brenda and Rick at Walnut Hill. Looks like they have stuck pretty much to the Hustler dogs and the results have been outstanding in the show ring or in the the field trialing or hunting for the average hunter. Just plain outstanding dogs that are bred to be the complete GSP.

Ezzy
Their dogs are crossed out as I mentioned earlier. Rip was a Hustler x Wildburg. Rick's have other influences as well.
Linebreeding always have other influences from the very forst litter and as you go down the generations you have more outside influence but if you keep going back to the dogs that have Hustler in their pedigree you keep reinforcing that line while the other influences play minor roles. We sometimes forget that we want a certain line in our dog but then frown on the people who actually inbreed to keep that line as pure as possible. And I do realize that when yu have a certain dog back 3 or 4 generations you have lost a great deal of their influence unless you do keep bringing it in as you go don the road with each generation.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by redman25 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:00 pm

My pup is from the Poettsiepen lines. He's hyper for sure, but only 11 weeks so we'll see how that progresses. Beautiful liver roan with blocky head.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by redman25 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:06 pm

Was just looking back through my pup's pedigree and there is also a heavy influence from the Hustler line along with the Poettsiepen line.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by bruns333 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:32 am

I have a female from Regardless lines which is based on Rugerheim stuff, she is pretty tightly linebred at 23%. I have seen/been around several and seems like traits would be, great pointing, softer, medium run, not brush busters. Have another female that is half Regardless and half Higgins(double bred Hustler/Wendy). She got the biddability of the Hustler stuff with more toughness and run than my regardless female.

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Rugerheim FT/MH/DC
Walnut Hills FT/MH/DC
Top Gun MH
Sharp Shooter VC/MH
Greif bred FT
Stillwater VC/MH
Odyssey FT/DC
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:53 am

Anyone know anything about what BA Buckshot is throwing?

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by lvrgsp » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:18 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Anyone know anything about what BA Buckshot is throwing?
Greg only 1 person in the country can answer that, it would be Bobby Grove at Fieldmaster. He
Has the only litter out of Buck, from our many conversations he is happy with that litter so far.
Pups are young yet but showing well, a couple with trial placements also. Bobs got some really nice stuff
He is commited to producing a true dual type dog give him a call you won't be dissapointed.
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:46 am

You guys know that I'm committed to Rick and Brenda's stuff. I've just been trying to talk them into bringing some BE back in. Buck has it. Just don't know how/if he's passing it on.

Anyone seen him run?

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by lvrgsp » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:02 am

Never saw Buck run, have to talk to the west coast guys about that. I did spend some time talking with leroy about Buck, a great guy, he had a lot of nice things to say about Buck. If your wanting BE, Buck has about as much of it and close as your gonna get.....Bucks pushing 10 now I think and I'm gonna guess what is on the ground out of Buck is all your gonna see......
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by BigShooter » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:46 am

Greg Jennings wrote: I'm interested in hearing about some of the western dogs. I haven't heard much about Rockin Rollin Billy, etc.Greg J.
When Rockin' Rollin Billy was paired with Great Clips Peta the trialed dogs of the litter included NFC Rockin' Rollin Jane, NFC Rincon Slick Willy & Sport Von Rowekamp. Many said Sport was the best of the litter but died young of accidental poisoning. What I've heard is tough dogs, hardheaded, stylish, lots of stamina & run, harder to get a handle on but when you do they really perform. NFC Prairie Wind's Comeuppance (Penny) & the other two AA members of the "Blue's Crew" have a fair amount of Rockin' Rollin Billy so I'd expect you to get some better first hand info from Eldon Hongo or Keith & Bobbi Richardson.
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by mountaindogs » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:32 pm

I guess I am still pretty new to this, but it seems with many of the lines The happy medium between "Drive" and "drive me crazy" is a teetery tottery one at best. I will share my newish observations. Hustler dogs often have a good amount of "able to be chill and listen" but can swing to too much "chill," and not enough "go" at times in some individuals. Also seem to be slower to mature mentally. I have also been told that heavy line breeding on hustler can bring up underbites, if not careful. Shooting starr, I see as high energy but attentive dogs. More ground scenters than some other lines, but I have not seen too much more liek just enough. I have seen a tendancy towards east/west fronts in several. Also seem to tend to finer boned, where as hustler dogs would tend toward heavier boned.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by mountaindogs » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:11 pm

true but they seem to have deviated from those that stayed away from 'tramp. I like the shooting starr stuff alot. Have not seen one of them that did not impress me in some ways. On grief lines and what they bring in, I don't know enough to make stuff up :wink:

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by snips » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:24 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Anyone know anything about what BA Buckshot is throwing?
Rick recommended that Robert breed to Buck, and I have emailed asking how he likes the pups but he did not tell me. Also looking at Prairie Winds Zack dog, Hulk, and Back to Zack. Also carrying BE....
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:49 am

I'd been talking to Rick and he'd talked about a couple of BE-ish dogs. I'll talk to him more later this week. I'm hoping that Sophie turns out for him...if you haven't managed to steal her away from him, that is... ;)

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by The Zephyr » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:55 am

BA Buckshot bred bitch, Fieldmaster's Oregon Road Phosphorus "Regon". 11 months of age, 4 placements, 2 wins.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by lvrgsp » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:03 am

Thats a good looking bitch John, you know Bob and I talked and talked when he made that decision to breed to Buck, and I kik myself hard for not taking a pup out of that, a very very nice litter. With only being bred once I guess if your wanting to know what he throws, your probably gonna have to call Bob up or take a female to him. I know Goegan is pretty excited about Bobs pup he has out of Buck, and the other string of dogs from Fieldmaster, they have been tearing up the horseback trials this fall......just a few points shy of a couple of duals right there, and more coming...... :wink:

Oh yea congrats to you sir and all of Natashas winning here as of late, shes on a roll and as I understand it she is just shy of finishing both ways by a point or two. Quite a few NSTRA CH's coming out of that program as well, the whole programs just been tearing it up lately...
Good job there Roberto

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by lvrgsp » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:18 am

snips wrote: Rick recommended that Robert breed to Buck, and I have emailed asking how he likes the pups but he did not tell me. Also looking at Prairie Winds Zack dog, Hulk, and Back to Zack. Also carrying BE....
If your looking to add some power in your program, probably not a bad place to start

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Wagonmaster » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:21 am

There is a much more fundamental issue here. Both the pointer lines mentioned are both actual "lines" formed by line breeding. It took two separate, dedicated individuals to do that, and a fair amount of money, over an extended period of time. One of the things that is necessary in creating a true line, is culling. If you run into a genetic dead-end, a negative characteristic, an genetic disease or predisposition to a disease, if the line is being created by a single individual and individual is a good line breeder, the line will be continued forward without the trait. But in doing things the way we do today, there are not many such individuals, watching the outcome of their breeding and guarding against those traits while creating their particular type.

This is not a criticism of the breed as a whole. It is in pretty much great shape. But there are not alot of true lines, not in the way their once were.

There are some people in GSP circles who have been working on the development of a line, but for the most part they are only one or two generations into the effort. The older line breeders are not around so much anymore.

We have discussed this pretty much ad infinitum, but there really are not any "lines" out there in GSP circles. When talking about "Rusty" dogs or "Clown" dogs, people are talking about dogs that have been many years, and are now a tiny genetic contributor to the present dogs.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by lvrgsp » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:41 am

John,
I would say they have linebred on Cecil enough, Gulledges have linebred on Slick for sometime now, and look at all The RR Billy/BE stuff Richardsons have, IMO I would consider them a line so to speak, and its all relatively close...

Maybe it's just me John but Spot has enough Rusty in him and close enough for me to call him a Rusty bred dog, Timmy was doublebred Rusty x Checkmate and Lee's Heidi was out of Luke I do believe, all within 3 gens? Rusty had to have some influence how much is the question. Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong.

You can still breed to Clown, gettin it might be tough, but its there......and has been used, The NSTRA guys seem to like it.
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by BigShooter » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:57 am

Wagonmaster wrote:There is a much more fundamental issue here.

There are some people in GSP circles who have been working on the development of a line, but for the most part they are only one or two generations into the effort. The older line breeders are not around so much anymore.

We have discussed this pretty much ad infinitum, but there really are not any "lines" out there in GSP circles. When talking about "Rusty" dogs or "Clown" dogs, people are talking about dogs that have been many years, and are now a tiny genetic contributor to the present dogs.
I said the same thing back on page one, but more briefly & with less authority.

There seems to be more mix & match going on, not that some really nice dogs haven't been produced. Unless you can identify more than a handful of true lines that are producing almost all of the great GSP dogs of today that have all the qualities you want, one unfortunately is drawn back into a parallel discussion regarding "who are the individual blue hens & studs of today that have produced consistently nice pups in two or more litters, regardless of pairings". Furthermore, I think it becomes relatively harder to identify and discuss the true lines of non-field trial dogs.
Mark

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:10 am

Gee, I thought I covered that with the weasle words "gross generalization".

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by BigShooter » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:17 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Gee, I thought I covered that with the weasle words "gross generalization".
Nice try! :lol:
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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:31 am

Danged lawyers. :mrgreen:

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by BigShooter » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:49 am

I always thought it'd be fun to have a few of the more knowledgeable fellows on the forum take a look at my Spot's or another live dog's pedigree & rate the characteristics they think the littermates most likely inherited from 1 least likely to 5 most likely. Traits including but not limited by: lots of bottom, big run/range, stylish, biddable, fast maturing, good nose, natural point, natural retrieve, field intensity & trainability.

Then have those same folks rate a few breedings, check the subsequent pups produced & see how good they are at prognostication. :P
Mark

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TALL PINES MOONBEAM

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by lvrgsp » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:17 pm

To many variables and opinions in there Mark. Good idea though. You forgot to ad
Spots smile in there with that. :D

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:33 pm

Are there any "lines" that are known for early maturation?

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Meller » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:38 pm

Dixieland Rusty and Moosegaurd

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Fieldmaster » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:49 pm

Rick recommended that Robert breed to Buck
For the record, Rick and I spoke when I was considering breeding to Buck. He knew nothing about Buck before our conversation. He did however contact a lady out West about Buck and some other BE Stud Dogs. She knew nothing about Buck and recommended Papion or Joe Dirt to add the BE influence. Rick advised me of her recommendations and said he would breed to Papion or Joe Dirt also. He said Buck was a Gun Dog and a "Gun Dog bred to a Gun Dog will produce average Gun Dogs"

Guess they will turn out to be Gun Dogs :D :D

Robert

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:05 pm

I've gotten some good feedback on Slipknot. I guess the best thing to do there would be to talk to Leroy.

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Re: GSP Line Generalizations

Post by snips » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:40 pm

Woops, he thought he recommended Buck..Getting a little :? in old age... He was thinking of the conversation of Grief lines x Blankenburg.....
brenda

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