GSP Line Generalizations

[BigShooter]

Greg Dixon's training a couple of early maturing, easy to train dogs from a line now. Pretty sure we're talking gun dogs if that's your interest, Greg.

On another note, Chip pointed to a heavy influence of Rusty & Moesgaard in John's dog Spot. Spot matured fairly early & so did my bitch, littermate to Spot. However, I bred her to a stud that is a Rusty grandson, Sport grandson & Rockin' Rollin Billy great-grandson (see pedigrees below). My pups matured quickly physically but Dixon would tell you they are harder to train than what he's used to in Midwest GSPs & they are maturing slower mentally. Now they run big so it could be they are better suited to bigger grounds out west. Some dogs can look screwy in the Midwest and look great out West. However, the heavy influence of Rusty & Moesgaard in these dogs doesn't seem to have produced early mental maturity or else it's been offset by the Sport, RRB & Quailrun's White Angel. Just trying to be honest here.

Yes Chip, a couple of the pups surprised me with a smile just like their uncle's.

[Meller]

My Rusty and Moosegard, dog's seem to mature early, I crossed with a Grief bread Female and the pup's in this cross also matured early.

[scott townsend]

Greg Dixon's training a couple of early maturing, easy to train dogs from a line now. Pretty sure we're talking gun dogs if that's your interest, Greg.

On another note, Chip pointed to a heavy influence of Rusty & Moesgaard in John's dog Spot. Spot matured fairly early & so did my bitch, littermate to Spot. However, I bred her to a stud that is a Rusty grandson, Sport grandson & Rockin' Rollin Billy great-grandson (see pedigrees below). My pups matured quickly physically but Dixon would tell you they are harder to train than what he's used to in Midwest GSPs & they are maturing slower mentally. Now they run big so it could be they are better suited to bigger grounds out west. Some dogs can look screwy in the Midwest and look great out West. However, the heavy influence of Rusty & Moesgaard in these dogs doesn't seem to have produced early mental maturity or else it's been offset by the Sport, RRB & Quailrun's White Angel. Just trying to be honest here.

Yes Chip, a couple of the pups surprised me with a smile just like their uncle's.

Mark that has also been my experience with the Rusty and Moesgaard stuff, physicaly mature early, but mentally late, tons of run , real biddable, lots of speed and bottom.Pretty much it is all I run in the NSTRA format. The same line has produced 4 different national champions.Why change what works.

[northern cajun]

Well most of my dogs go back to the Mooesgaurd and Rusty lines (he is from mooesgard stock himself if not mistaken) and Saddle.

Those Mooesgard dogs do mature early.

[BigShooter]

Moesgaard is behind every grandparent of my young dogs with Rusty behind three fourths of the grandparents as well. Furthermore, there aren't many young dogs today sired by a Rusty grandget.

If I remember the info from the Wildrose site correctly, Charlie asserts his Rusty offspring mature early as well. Maybe exposure, stimulation & training is the difference but who knows.

So there you have it Greg, gross generalizations, supported by differing observations.

[Troy08er]

I've gotten some good feedback on Slipknot. I guess the best thing to do there would be to talk to Leroy.

I would also call Larry Lowell from Lowellsgundogs.com , I know Larry leased a linebred BE female Goonie http://thegreifcorps.blogspot.com/2007/07/goonie.html that he's breeding his Bean dog too.I have a deposit on a female.The stuff I like,bitch- FC AFC Billy Dee's Blues in A "Blues"

Carl's also has BE lines.
ttp://www.huntingdogtrainer.net

http://www.lowellsgundogs.com/pb/wp_b1c ... 050f6.html

[LBH]

I've gotten some good feedback on Slipknot. I guess the best thing to do there would be to talk to Leroy.

I would also call Larry Lowell from Lowellsgundogs.com , I know Larry leased a linebred BE female Goonie http://thegreifcorps.blogspot.com/2007/07/goonie.html that he's breeding his Bean dog too.I have a deposit on a female.The stuff I like,bitch- FC AFC Billy Dee's Blues in A "Blues"

Carl's also has BE lines.
ttp://www.huntingdogtrainer.net

http://www.lowellsgundogs.com/pb/wp_b1c ... 050f6.html

If you like Blues talk to Keith and Bobbi .... foundation of their breeding program right there.

[Troy08er]

I'm interested in hearing about some of the western dogs. I haven't heard much about Rockin Rollin Billy, etc.Greg J.

When Rockin' Rollin Billy was paired with Great Clips Peta the trialed dogs of the litter included NFC Rockin' Rollin Jane, NFC Rincon Slick Willy & Sport Von Rowekamp. Many said Sport was the best of the litter but died young of accidental poisoning. What I've heard is tough dogs, hardheaded, stylish, lots of stamina & run, harder to get a handle on but when you do they really perform. NFC Prairie Wind's Comeuppance (Penny) & the other two AA members of the "Blue's Crew" have a fair amount of Rockin' Rollin Billy so I'd expect you to get some better first hand info from Eldon Hongo or Keith & Bobbi Richardson.

Blues and BE lines.

http://www.lowellsgundogs.com/

http://landmarkennels.com/

http://www.merrellkennels.com/

http://www.prairiewindgsps.com/index.html

http://www.huntingdogtrainer.net/programs.html

http://www.hbv.netkennel.com/

[Troy08er]

I've gotten some good feedback on Slipknot. I guess the best thing to do there would be to talk to Leroy.

I would also call Larry Lowell from Lowellsgundogs.com , I know Larry leased a linebred BE female Goonie http://thegreifcorps.blogspot.com/2007/07/goonie.html that he's breeding his Bean dog too.I have a deposit on a female.The stuff I like,bitch- FC AFC Billy Dee's Blues in A "Blues"

Carl's also has BE lines.
ttp://www.huntingdogtrainer.net

http://www.lowellsgundogs.com/pb/wp_b1c ... 050f6.html

If you like Blues talk to Keith and Bobbi .... foundation of their breeding program right there.

I plan on it one of these days.It's Larry's foundation also. I would really like to talk with Leroy too. I have talked with Lynn and she's really nice. I'll be watching http://www.merrellkennels.com/MKPedigre ... eeNewt.htm . I am no expert,I just ran my first NSTRA event last weekend,my Gator dog did really well.Never done any horse back trial or seen one.Lynn said, see let me know when they have one in our area.Thanks,Troy

[kbshorthairs]

It is always best to go to people with those dogs......or watch them perform. One's own perception is reality. If you want to walk out 40 acres and move a few birds before thanksgiving dinner then your idea of the ideal bird dog is going to be markedly different than someone than runs the prairies. Everyone has opinions, but oftentimes they are based on hearsay rather than spending time in the saddle or hunting behind a dog. I have never liked generalizations and John made a good point about "lines". People often say they have a Rusty bred dog when he shows up once in three generations. Genetics are way more complicated than I understand, but I have had good luck watching dogs run and then breeding to the ones that not only exhibit the traits that I am after but also repeatedly THROW those characteristics.
Sometimes you just get lucky!
When we bred Rockin Rollin Billy to Great Clips Pita......it wasn't the result of years of research. Billy was lighting up the countryside and we were friends with Bob Deitering. Pita was bred nicely, but wasn't broke and had never been out of the kennel much. Everyone knows the results of that litter. We repeated the breeding after seeing how fantastic all of those dogs were doing.
I am rather green about lots of things so I also talk to people that know more than I do. Most people are going to brag on the dogs in their kennel, but when there is a dog that truly sets itself apart.....even their biggest rivals will give them their due.
Sometimes you get unlucky.
The second dog on my signature was bred like a dream on paper. Unfortunately, he had more severe health issues than any dog I have ever been around.

[lvrgsp]

It is always best to go to people with those dogs......or watch them perform. One's own perception is reality. If you want to walk out 40 acres and move a few birds before thanksgiving dinner then your idea of the ideal bird dog is going to be markedly different than someone than runs the prairies. Everyone has opinions, but oftentimes they are based on hearsay rather than spending time in the saddle or hunting behind a dog. I have never liked generalizations and John made a good point about "lines". People often say they have a Rusty bred dog when he shows up once in three generations. Genetics are way more complicated than I understand, but I have had good luck watching dogs run and then breeding to the ones that not only exhibit the traits that I am after but also repeatedly THROW those characteristics.
Sometimes you just get lucky!
When we bred Rockin Rollin Billy to Great Clips Pita......it wasn't the result of years of research. Billy was lighting up the countryside and we were friends with Bob Deitering. Pita was bred nicely, but wasn't broke and had never been out of the kennel much. Everyone knows the results of that litter. We repeated the breeding after seeing how fantastic all of those dogs were doing.
I am rather green about lots of things so I also talk to people that know more than I do. Most people are going to brag on the dogs in their kennel, but when there is a dog that truly sets itself apart.....even their biggest rivals will give them their due.
Sometimes you get unlucky.
The second dog on my signature was bred like a dream on paper. Unfortunately, he had more severe health issues than any dog I have ever been around.

Good to have yo back on here man......

Very well said and so much truth, unfortunately it gets washed out sometimes in these forums

[Carl Porter]

Just wanted to add a my two cents. I bought Blues (FC/AFC Billy Dee's Blues in A) from Eldon Hongo right after she turned 2. That was one of the most exciting dogs I have ever run or owned to date. She was a fantastic bird dog and a great companion. I became good friends with Bob and Sandy over the years and always tried picking Bob's brain about Billy. He was a magnificent dog and to bad didn't live long enough to be bred much. Bob told me Blues was very much like him except a Shooting Dog not All Age and she was much like Billy in her personality. . When I had her we bred her to NGDC HK's Rockin Rocky. That breeding produced Larry Lowells FC Blues New Creation "Neo" dog. That sire has produced some of the finest hunting dogs I have seen and trained. For years now I have chased that breeding of Billy and Beier's Evolution that produced Blues. I believe that Neo is the closest we will see to Blues. Blues had it all in my personal experience and opinion. She handled kindly at extreme range, had a fantastic nose, great style and a wonderful disposition. I believe she was my dog of a lifetime, much like Billy, Willy, Jane and for other people that owned that line of dog. Neo was bred to a Johnny Merrell bitch that produced "Goonie. I trained and ran her for a few years before her owner got out of the game. Now that bitch really reminded me of Blues. If anyone has a chance to get one of her pups don't hesitate. I was told Blues was much like Billy. I never saw him run personally. I had just got in the game when he was killed. I did see Jane run and she was really nice. Willy of course, a NFC and deserving of it. Neo was a true gun dog but what a great bird dog. Goonie could have been a great Shooting Dog had they continued to run her. The last time I ran her she went RU at Region 11 and was in first place in the AGD in the same week. She is a really nice bitch and should produce great pups. I believe that line of dogs produces some of the best dogs in the country today.

[ultracarry]

Nice to read that one. Good to hear about all the dogs in my girls pedigree.......

[kbshorthairs]

Carl Porter, Eldon Hongo, Bob and Sandy Dietering........those folks know their business. I miss Bob!

[Carl Porter]

He's not gone yet. Just not doing very well. Still sharp as a tack when he's on his game.

[Carl Porter]

Nice dog ultracarry.

[DGFavor]

Good report Carl. I love that stuff - good tough, western bird dogs. Chukar hunters dream.

[Carl Porter]

Is this Doug Favor. If so, how have you been.

[Troy08er]

Carl,thanks for the great post on Neo and Blues. I have those dogs and yours in my pedigree.

[kensfishing]

Hey Carl, haven't heard from you since the Northen Az. Club ran that trial up in Northern Az. Glad to see you're still running around.

[LarryLowell]

Carl, thanks for the nice words about Neo, and Goonie.

I'll agree with Carl in that Blues is a dog I could only aspire to owning and and hopefully through her pups hope to produce dogs of her caliber. Carl Porter owned Blues all but a few years of her life and I was lucky to be able to get a pup from her first breeding to Rocky, from him. Then when the Richardsons bought Blues they bred her to Spekk and I was again lucky to be able to get a pup out of that litter. Next to the Richardson I'm the only other person to have the privilege of owning a dog from both litters Blues produced. My breeding foundation is all based on Biers Evolution, Billy, Blues, Rocky, Spekk, Neo and Bessy (Neo and Bessy being my Blues/Billy dogs)

There are two Dogs that opened my eyes to what a Birddog really is. FC Billy Dees Blues in "A" (Blues) and NFC Slick Dixies Tarkus. Blues was always my favorite and the dog I wanted to aspire to reproduce.

Doug Favor said it exactly right, in his comment that these are some tough hardcore westcoast chukar dogs at their best. I'll also add their hardcore on westcoast desert Quail, Huns, Pheasant, Grouse. Solid Birddogs that work hard, fill your bag, and look good doing it. To top all that off they are GREAT indoor pets as well.

Larry Lowell
http://www.PointingDogTrainer.com
http://www.LowellsGunDogs.com

[DGFavor]

Hey Carl - Just got in from near one of your favorite places in the world!! We hunted some birds horseback in eyesight of the Milepost 9 grounds today. About 8" snow, windy and fog. Sage hens, chuks and huns...and they won!! Still warmin' back up!

[Carl Porter]

Yea, I am a gypsy at heart. Love traveling with the dogs to trials and camps. Luckily for me I have the perfect wife for what I do. I was a gypsy when she met me so she doesn't expect much different. Just got back from No AZ two weeks ago and going back in the spring. How bout you? Coming out to the desert this year?

[Carl Porter]

Doug, Thats the scariest place I ever rode a horse. Was scouting for Eldon back in 02 at the Region 9 Championship and was on top of the ridge to the east of the place they run the trial. It rained, snowed and blew for 4 straight days. I was cold miserable, tired and scared all at the same time. I rode so high after one dog I was in the clouds and couldn't see anything. Scared the crap out me. What a place. Aside from that, How did you guys do up there. Oh I see, Chukars won. Gee thats a surprise......lol. good luck, hope to see you soon.
Carl

[ultracarry]

Just got back from a hunt test and those who knew you Carl said nothing but good things about you and your dogs.

As for Larry I'm still waiting for a phone call and your voice mail is full lol.

[Carl Porter]

Sorry, my phone was off all day and I didnt realize it.
Did you compete or just go for the fun?

[ultracarry]

Sorry I was writing about Larrys phone.... can't get a guided hunt these days..

I ran kimber in some senior braces and she did well. Straight 9's on the first brace and some 8,9, and a 10 pointing second brace. One more and she will get her SH. 3 for 3 so far.

[Carl Porter]

Good luck. Keep up the good work.
Carl

[snips]

There is a dog we bred on our website we are currently getting semen collected on...He is BE/APB up close...Listed under Brags, "Gambles Blick Von Grief" , he is in N.Ca owned by Bruce Lyon...He is about 8x NSTRA Ch now and an awsome dog.. We have hunted with him since he was very young..Dog is about 6 now. His Dam and Sire are listed on our Kennel...