Gun Dog Forum

Not looking for any answers on this, or necessarily any replies, I just need to vent some frustration.

I take my 6 month old French Brittany down to the off leash dog area on a regular basis (at least 3 times a week). Lets her explore and run through grass and I get to work with her outside the backyard. No, I don't expect much. But it sure is fun when I can give the two whistles and swing my arm and she changes directions.

Tonight, we had a great time. She did well and had fun with the other dogs (the primary reasons for my going their is socialization and energy use). However, at dusk it was time to go so I clicked on the leash and start heading out. On the way out, there was a large dog coming in (mix breed of some sort, actually a well built dog but ALL muscle, probably 100-150). I recognize this dog. This dog doesn't like pups and a month ago gave my poor 5 month old (at that time) pup a serious roll... not just one, but multiple and had to be pulled off by the owner. He appologized and said that the dog just has issues being around pups, and was just showing dominance. Had there been blood, I would have called it an attack and called 911. As it was, I just cataloged this dog as one to note and steer away from in the future (40 acres; plenty of room for all). Well, the dog is jogging at us, with a few other dogs around. The owner and his buddy (burley construction workers still in their orange shirts) walking slowly behind. Having watch the dog whisper, I know I am not supposed to show fear and treat each instance as a unique on as far as the dog is concerned. Given that my dog is nearly twice as heavy as last time they met, maybe it won't think she is still a pup.
Well, as you can guess, within 10 feet the dog goes into "dominance" mode. Serious growls and charge. My dog (correctly and naturally) goes into submissive... the problem of course is I have her on a fairly short leash so she can't realy do much to properly roll. As she hides behind me, I decide to take the aggressive stance in between, at which point the dog appears to growl at me. Now, I could be wrong, maybe he was growling past me, still at the pup; but his eyes shifted up in the middle of the growl and the tone changed. At this point the owner starts yelling and the dog backs down. The problem: his friend yells "I saw what you were going to do! I swear had you hit that dog I would have kicked your ***". Given the dogs are back to "normal" state, I turn to this guy and say something to the effect of "what? I wasn't going to hit him, I was standing in between him and my pup, showing a domin" at which point he the owner and the friend cut me off with threats and vulgarity. Ending with "he is just showing dominance, you are at the dog park, what do you expect". To which I reply, "I remember this dog, he only goes after puppies. You need to start controling your dog". At which point the owner again retorted with vulgarity, finally giving me the bird - no not a quail.
Now, I realize dogs will show dominance. In fact my little girl is about as submissive as the come (only seen 2 more submissive out of the hundreds of dogs at the park) and that makes lots of dogs go dominant around her. And I realize off-leash parks intail risk. I also realize I did not mitigate but helped escalate the situation with the owners. That said the comment I wanted to make was very simple: 'If your dog "dominates" my dog and blood is involved, I will be calling 911. If in the future your dog decides to go for me for any reason, and his teeth break my skin, I will be seeking to have your dog put down.'
I realize this would not have helped the situation, and would probably been seen as a threat. However, I really think someone is going to get bit by that dog.
Argh.
Frustrating.
Not that the dog was dominant, but that the owner was so belligerent about it... though as I think about it, it could be the fault of the friend, because as I said, the last time there was an interaction he was much less belligerent... still, frustrating.
Thanks for letting me vent some anger.

Wow what an ignorant owner...
I feel sorry for the time his out of control dog unleashes and causes someone or someones dog serious harm and it sounds like it is a matter of when not if with that idiot. And the poor dog will have to suffer the owners ignorance of how to be a good owner

We frequent a dog park thats just outside of town. Probably 100+ acres (grass & trees), not fenced and the dogs can run off leash and all the owners/dogs are great, never had a problem. We stay away from the dog parks that are in town as it seems like the majority of the dogs are out of control and even worse the majority of the owners just sit at the picnic tables and don't do a thing about their dogs. The last time we were at one of the parks I told a guy to control his f'n dog....he didn't say much, just apologized and gave me the line that old fluffy normally doesn't do that...really? Some people don't deserve to be dog owners.

...and that's the reason that I will never go to a dog park

Greg Jennings wrote:...and that's the reason that I will never go to a dog park

Same here (though I'm in a city area - don't have a 100 acre park). Ed Frawley, long-time trainer of police and "protection sport" dogs, absolutely HATES dog parks. All it takes is one interaction for a developing dog - one attack to change how a dog forever interacts with other dogs. Ed doesn't think it's worth the risk.

Here's an article by Frawley: http://leerburg.com/pdf/dogparks.pdf

Pepper spray the dog and owner and friend.

Have you considered that the owner is actually seeking out those situations because he gets off on his dog being dominant?

Greg Jennings wrote:Have you considered that the owner is actually seeking out those situations because he gets off on his dog being dominant?

...and has a similar personality himself. Ignorance and dominance should never co-exist.

The pepper spray idea is not bad. You can order a "bear spray" off of ebay - comes in a holster - sprays out this huge stream. That would probably take care of the problem (but plan to be caught in the overspray).

Greg Jennings wrote:Have you considered that the owner is actually seeking out those situations because he gets off on his dog being dominant?

Bingo Greg... Qwernt you need to call your local dispatch center for emergency services and find out who does the enforcement for the dog laws in that area. I understand that he may not have violated any laws as of yet, but a pre-emptive warning will shore up your argument if this goes any further in the future. This is unacceptable behavior from a dog owner and if this dog was willing to stand his ground with you then it will probbably take a dominant position with any child that may be walking her puppy too. Hopefully a call from law enforcement will let this moron know that you will not tolerate it. Your dog may be submissive, but you don't have to be! A mauled child is a much more serious matter and a real possibility in a public park.
Good luck and let us know how this pans out...

Greg Jennings wrote:...and that's the reason that I will never go to a dog park

Ditto

Yes, the guy was a jerk and needs to control his dog. sounds like he and his buddy are probably trying to compensate for something. some people just get off on confrontation.

on the other hand, the whole situation could have been avoided by picking up your pup and continuing to your car when you saw the dog coming. No, you shouldnt HAVE to do that, but why press the issue?? sounds like that other dog is big enough to end your dogs life in about 3 seconds, so why take that chance??

around here 911 would laugh at you when you said you were calling about a dog fight.

please dont take this post the wrong way, i am not trying to criticize you (i know it sounds that way). i just think a little discretion could have avoided a second confrontation. good luck with your pup!

dog dr I didn't say call 911 for a dog fight. nothing of the sort. :roll: I said find out who the local dog law officer was and report it to them. Emergency services of some sort will deal with this dog sooner or later. An aggressive dog with an irresponsible owner is a problem. There is a dog law officer who would be responsible to handle this sort of thing. He may be attached to a local or state police department, or a local ordinance officer. But the quickest way to determine who handels it in your area is to call your local dispatch center. Not on the emergency line, but the dispatch center none the less. They have non-emergency local numbers.

Qwernt, if you pm me I will be happy to find out who addresses this type of issue in your area... it's not hard to do.

-Dan

i would say if you feel threatened and pepper spray is legal to carry i would just carry a small can which i do when i go on runs with my gsp. you dont even need to spray the dog to make him turn and run. overspray isnt that bad it just kills when it is a direct eye hit.

i wont go to a dog park though. too many people with dogs they dont know how to control.

SHORTFAT wrote:dog dr I didn't say call 911 for a dog fight. nothing of the sort. :roll: I said find out who the local dog law officer was and report it to them. Emergency services of some sort will deal with this dog sooner or later. An aggressive dog with an irresponsible owner is a problem. There is a dog law officer who would be responsible to handle this sort of thing. He may be attached to a local or state police department, or a local ordinance officer. But the quickest way to determine who handels it in your area is to call your local dispatch center. Not on the emergency line, but the dispatch center none the less. They have non-emergency local numbers.


-Dan

I know you didnt, and i never said you did. The OP mentioned calling 911 more than once. I agree your idea would get ALOT better results than calling 911.

I don't go to dog parks for that very reason. Your average pet owner is just clueless.

If you run into the guy again, get his license plate number and call animal control on him. Most dog parks have pretty strict rules about the dogs being friendly.

Karen has exactly the right idea going forward. Get the license # and report that there have been multiple instances of an aggressive dog and an abusive owner.

Next time carry a tape recorder too. One of those little ones that fit in your pocket. Betcha he wouldn't want to explain a string of four letter words to a judge.

If pepper spray is not legal, wasp and hornet spray will be and it does just about the same job...on dog or man without the danger of overspray. That and you can hit what you are aiming at from nearly twenty feet.

RayG

I see storm clouds brewing... Something bad is on the horizon if this issue isn't addressed properly.

What the owner was doing falls under criminal menacing in some places. Get the tag number, call the police and let them know what's going on. It'll be in the general public good.

I won't go to most dog parks. There's a dog beach near my house which doesn't get very busy, so I can usually get my dogs some exercise without encountering too many idiots.

It it amazing the # of people out there with dogs and absolutely no clue.

Short of carrying a S&W 9mm, the spray will help. You and your dog have been assaulted. Threatening to batter is assault. Definitely report the human and dog to the cops to start a paper trail so that if it gets out of hand, the cops know what is going on. Do you have a copy of your local laws. Some people don't understand the financial and legal implications of a dog attack.
Some jurisdictions want all calls to law enforcement to start with 911. Check and see what your cops prefer.

In my line of work (locating underground utilities ) i encounter a lot of aggressive dogs and after my wrist was broke 2 months ago by a pit bull i was talking to mu buddy who is a vet and he said wasp spray is the best it shoots farther and stops em quicker i haven't had to use it yet but i fully intend to next time a big muscular pit comes after me.

Dog parks are a joke, most people who visit them think that all the dogs will just get along. They don't know the first thing about reading a dogs intentions prior to actual fight happening, after the fight starts they know even less about breaking one up! Most wont do anything to prevent a dog fight, and will get angry/belligerent/aggressive if you do something to their dog even if it is the aggressor.

I read that Leerburg article several years ago and have turned several people on to it.

ACooper wrote: They don't know the first thing about reading a dogs intentions prior to actual fight happening, after the fight starts they know even less about breaking one up!

I had an ol coyote hunter tell me the other day the best way to break up a dog fight was to grab them just in front of the back legs by the flanks and start walkn/pullin em backwards. He said there was a pressure point there.. Anyone know if this is legit? This ol man has raised coyote hounds and ran em forever. If it works, that'd be the way to seperate em and stay away from the "business end" of the dog.

I use the flanks for all kinds of control not just breaking up fights.

Once I get ahold of the flank of the dog I am responsible for, I then get the collar and start twisting and choke the living you know what of it with my other hand. I have found this to very effective way to break up a fight. Its important to get their feet off the ground (probably the biggest reason it works). Obviously this takes two people. Also very effective for a one man job are hot shots (if you have one handy).

IMO fighting dogs should be handled quickly and punished severely!

DougB wrote:You and your dog have been assaulted. Threatening to batter is assault. Definitely report the human and dog to the cops to start a paper trail so that if it gets out of hand, the cops know what is going on. Do you have a copy of your local laws. Some people don't understand the financial and legal implications of a dog attack.
Some jurisdictions want all calls to law enforcement to start with 911. Check and see what your cops prefer.

Exactly. It is the same here in Canada. Once he told you what he was going to do (kick your #$%&), the damage was done. You don't have to press charges, but the paper trail goes a long way for any possible future events. An accurate description of the indiviudals and plate #'s if possible can go a long way. I hope it doesn't happen again. It happened between my dog and my sister-in-law's dog. Mine was a britt, her's was a chocolate lab. Lucky for her and the dog no blood was drawn on my girl, but it was a heated argument between us and made for a tense family dinner that night!!

prairiefirepointers wrote:

ACooper wrote: They don't know the first thing about reading a dogs intentions prior to actual fight happening, after the fight starts they know even less about breaking one up!

I had an ol coyote hunter tell me the other day the best way to break up a dog fight was to grab them just in front of the back legs by the flanks and start walkn/pullin em backwards. He said there was a pressure point there.. Anyone know if this is legit? This ol man has raised coyote hounds and ran em forever. If it works, that'd be the way to seperate em and stay away from the "business end" of the dog.

Anywhere you can get ahold of those back legs, then start pulling back. If the dog still has fight in him, swing him in a circle until he quits. Here's how the police dog trainers do it: http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

better grab them by the legs or the feet. you grab a dog by the flanks and they can turn around and bite you before you know what happened.


OR, when you see a dog coming that you have had trouble with before, pick up your dog (or leash him) and head in the other direction. Avoid the whole mess in the first place.

dog dr wrote:better grab them by the legs or the feet. you grab a dog by the flanks and they can turn around and bite you before you know what happened.


OR, when you see a dog coming that you have had trouble with before, pick up your dog (or leash him) and head in the other direction. Avoid the whole mess in the first place.

Avoid the mess is best. Sometimes picking up a dog isn't a total solution if the other dog is amped up. We had a neighbor's Jack Russell over a few years ago - a dominant male dog. When he started messing with our mini-dachshund, we picked up the dachshund. "bleep" JR jumped up and latched onto the doxie's ham. Six stitches later...

That said, I totally agree with you about avoiding the whole mess. I think the bigger the dogs are, the further down the road you have to look to foresee possible trouble an plan accordingly. This summer we socialized a dominant Akita/GSD mix. When I took him out for runs/walks/bikes, I always had my head on a swivel watching for other dogs, and changed our route to keep the distance necessary. Eventually, our training started to take hold, and I was able to pass closer and closer to other dogs, cats, whatever.

I know that this is my first post, but you have to remember that when you start pulling on one or two dogs that are locked together you are going to cause more damage than is already happening. The teeth will be sunk in and then rips will happen when you pull. I have raised big game hounds that are tuned up pretty high so when there are young males this is a situation I have always been on the look out for. When it happens I usually try to get right next to the heads and wait for an opportunity to grab both collars at the same time, or at least the neck area. When I do this, I simultaneously slam both dogs to the ground and hold them there until they decide to let go. Usually they let go when they hit the ground due to the surprise. Holding them by the neck is a show dominance on your part as well and they have no choice but to submit to you at that point. They might struggle a little but you cannot let them go. By now you should also have a hold of the collar.

Next I get real vocal and let them know that both of them are wrong, the instigator and the retaliator. When I say real vocal I mean loud, real loud. I also at this time have still not let go of the collars so I am still in control of them. If one is still growling and being aggressive it will get shook to know that what they are doing is not acceptable in any way. When that is done I will next rub the two dogs faces together and reinforce that any show of aggression is not acceptable at any time. The dogs may not be buddies and play together, but they will not be aggressive towards each other, and most likely will not want to even look at each other. But they cannot leave each other until they are tolerable of each other. This all takes at the most 5 minutes. It has to quick and immediate.

I want to also emphasize that the dogs should not actually be hurt with any of your corrections. The yelling and shaking will scare the heck out of them but not hurt them. I also know that this sounds a little extreme but to me dog fighting is an intolerable act from any dog. They should not be aggressive towards anything, except maybe their quarry, but that is not acceptable in a bird dog.

STICK WITH THE PEPPER SPRAY! WASP SPRAY is not a viable option! Police departments worldwide use pepper spray because the inflammatory effects of this agent work on those which cannot feel pain (very important). The inflammatory effects of pepper spray cause eyes to close involuntarily and produce a loss of breath sensation. Pepper spray has been proven effective on deterring and incapacitating aggressive, combative, intoxicated and drug induced individuals for over 20 years. There are many home defense pepper spray options which will deploy up to 25 feet and unlike WASP sprays, these pepper sprays do not require the user to be as accurate because their spray pattern will cover an entire doorway. Pepper spray is a safe, proven option which is trusted and relied upon by police officers worldwide.

See link below for more info on MYTH:
http://fortwayne.bbb.org/snopes-25-urban-legends/

See link below for more info on MYTH:
http://fortwayne.bbb.org/snopes-25-urban-legends/

Evidently a lot of people haven't read about Snopes. They are just an older couple who started this service but don't really check anything. They are a legend that people thought really had a means of checking whether things were accurate or not. All a myth!!!!!

Ezzy

You were threatened with bodily harm. That in itself is reason enough to call the police.

I don't go to dog parks because 95% of the owners who take their dogs there are clueless about dog behavior.

I've never had major problems with the dog park here (3 acre and a 7 acre). Most people see me with the shock collars, dummies, etc and figure I know what I'm doing. But just yesterday I had a few dogs going after my 4.5 month old. I just took her out of the area. 99% of the dogs are decent enough but the owners are idiots.

Now I was impressed by a guy with a rotty yesterday. He knew the dog had problems but wanted to work them out. He had him on a short lead just walking him around.

ditto the pepper spray.

A friend and I hike on land owned by Cornell. In one place we were confronted by 3 loose, out of control aggressive Rotti's with owners that were as ignorant and nonchalant as they come. Luckily nothing happened but my friend's hubby ordered us pepper spray immediately. It is illegal to use in NY but we will take the chance. I would prefer to carry a pistol but that is not looked upon very well!

Why on Earth is PS illegal in NY? You mean if you are hiking in the woods around Lake Placid, and a bear charges you, you aren't allowed to pepper spray the bear? What kind of crap is that? :roll:

Just tell the aggressing dog No politely. Then if that doesn't work use a newspaper or fly-swatter. Just Kidding. I can't believe you can't use pepper spray. However, then again with some of the idiotic laws out there, yes I can.

Being in Law Enforcement, the only solution I can see is to stop going to the dog park or at least make sure you keep your space from that party. Here, Animal Control along with the PD would handle a dog bite situation involving a person. Dog fighting is illegal obviously, but two dogs getting into a fight at a public park where dogs are allowed to run free is not even a police call out. To be completely honest, the idiot saying if you would have kicked my dog, I would have kicked your *ss probably would not even be considered a threat by normal police standards.

I know you were just trying to blow off steam, and I sympathize with your train of thought and agree with it, there is just not much you can do until a crime of some sort is committed. Unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots out there that have no business owning dogs that screw a lot of stuff up for everybody.

Good luck, Steve

In these dog parks: Is there any type of monitoring by Animal control or Police? If not there should be to help nip these things in the bud. Yes it would cost money but in reality there is some one (probably a city worker) who manintains the property and could double as an Animal control Officer with authority to keep idiots out or give written warnings. (Obviously they would need to be trained.

Just a thought while reading this.
Rick

Well you handled it pretty well. I would have went into dominance mode myself and would probably have been behind bars at the county jail where I work because I would have given someone and "old fashioned" education on messing with someone else's dog.

Tommyboy, I have seen you in person before. I would be willing to bet you would have a hard time finding someone at a dog park to talk to you like that!

ezzy333 wrote:

See link below for more info on MYTH:
http://fortwayne.bbb.org/snopes-25-urban-legends/

Evidently a lot of people haven't read about Snopes. They are just an older couple who started this service but don't really check anything. They are a legend that people thought really had a means of checking whether things were accurate or not. All a myth!!!!!

Ezzy

It's interesting that you have such a bias against an unbiased source that publications like the NY Times, Hoax Busters, The Jem Report, and others swear by.

How about some proof?

I'd be interesting in reading what you're drawing from also, Al.

Greg Jennings wrote:I'd be interesting in reading what you're drawing from also, Al.

Ditto. This is the first I've ever heard of this. Ever.

It's not the first I've heard, but everything that I've heard that carries a dismissive tone has had a political agenda.

No urban legends site is going to be infallible. Best to go to several, scan any attributed sources and make up your own mind.

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/off-topi ... posed.html

For the past few years www.snopes.com has positioned itself, or others have labeled it, as the 'tell-all final word' on any comment, claim and email. But for several years people tried to find out who exactly was behind snopes.com. It is run by a husband and wife team - that's right, no big office of investigators and researchers, no team of lawyers. It's just a mom-and-pop operation that began as a hobby. David and Barbara Mikkelson in the San Fernando Valley of California started the website about 13 years ago and they have no formal background or experience in investigative research.

Hochman, David. "Rumor Detectives: True Story or Online Hoax?" Reader’s Digest, April 2009.

I think some of the info about this is typical internet garbage but there is enough to also make you realize that two people just can't do all of the investigative work to know what is true and what isn't in my opinion. It is not an organization that might have the resources to do it.

There's a lot more info that you can read and make up your own mind.

Ezzy

When I first glaced at Ezzy's post, I thought, holy #$(*$# that's your source? A right-wing concealed carry forum? I looked at it, and clearly was disappointed, but saw the second and feel like that's more legit. I don't have time today, but sure would like read the article and hope to dig it up tomorrow. Thanks Ezzy.

ezzy333 wrote:http://www.usacarry.com/forums/off-topi ... posed.html

For the past few years http://www.snopes.com has positioned itself, or others have labeled it, as the 'tell-all final word' on any comment, claim and email. But for several years people tried to find out who exactly was behind snopes.com. It is run by a husband and wife team - that's right, no big office of investigators and researchers, no team of lawyers. It's just a mom-and-pop operation that began as a hobby. David and Barbara Mikkelson in the San Fernando Valley of California started the website about 13 years ago and they have no formal background or experience in investigative research.

Hochman, David. "Rumor Detectives: True Story or Online Hoax?" Reader’s Digest, April 2009.

I think some of the info about this is typical internet garbage but there is enough to also make you realize that two people just can't do all of the investigative work to know what is true and what isn't in my opinion. It is not an organization that might have the resources to do it.

There's a lot more info that you can read and make up your own mind.

Ezzy

I read the article. It doesn't support your hypothesis at all. In fact, it shows them as capable researchers who doggedly pursue the truth.

BTW, I was a private investigator for over 10 years. How "good" an investigation is has nothing to do with huge investigative teams, lawyers, or other such "resources". But everything to do with the tenacity to turn up leads, track them down, and determine fact from fiction.

I read the article. It doesn't support your hypothesis at all. In fact, it shows them as capable researchers who doggedly pursue the truth.

BTW, I was a private investigator for over 10 years. How "good" an investigation is has nothing to do with huge investigative teams, lawyers, or other such "resources". But everything to do with the tenacity to turn up leads, track them down, and determine fact from fiction.

Any chance in your experience that it might take more than two people to have the tenacity to turn up leads, track them down and determine fact from fiction of many cases a day? Think I read somewhere that they has sometimes up to a hundred request a day. Even if they only have 5 a day I would think it would be impossible to perform a thorough investigation but you would know better than I.

I just repeated what I had read and it made sense to me but I am sure many of you would have a better understanding than I.

Ezzy

SubMariner wrote:I read the article. It doesn't support your hypothesis at all. In fact, it shows them as capable researchers who doggedly pursue the truth.

BTW, I was a private investigator for over 10 years. How "good" an investigation is has nothing to do with huge investigative teams, lawyers, or other such "resources". But everything to do with the tenacity to turn up leads, track them down, and determine fact from fiction.

ezzy333 wrote:Any chance in your experience that it might take more than two people to have the tenacity to turn up leads, track them down and determine fact from fiction of many cases a day?

Actually, it doesn't. Most investigators (myself included) worked multiple cases every day. Information doesn't always present itself in nice neat linear lines in nice compact time frames. You have to be able to multi-task.

ezzy333 wrote:Think I read somewhere that they has sometimes up to a hundred request a day. Even if they only have 5 a day I would think it would be impossible to perform a thorough investigation but you would know better than I.

Refer back to my previous statement. Also, I'm sure that there is a prioritization of requests: you don't start working on each one as soon as it comes in; it goes in a queue. No where does it indicate how long it takes them to process a request.

[quote="SubMariner
It's interesting that you have such a bias against an unbiased source that publications like the NY Times, Hoax Busters, The Jem Report, and others swear by.

How about some proof?[/quote]

SubMariner,

If you think Snopes is unbiased, then you need to browse through their website. They are far from unbiased, extremely liberal, and their 'research' has been disproved time and again.

How about some proof? That is exactly what you should be asking snopes.

Sorry if I stirred the pot on this, but you can't blame me for hijacking the thread, it was already a bit off topic!