Aggression - suggestions?

[gar-dog]

I went hunting for a few days with a friend who has an 18 month old female GWP/Dratthar. Every time we encountered anyone, or pulled alongside other hunters in the truck to say hello, the dog would get to growling and barking. I understand this happens generally at all encounters - particularly other dogs when on leases, and people wearing big hats, always something, etc. It's a great dog, but frankly this behavior is a real pain. It makes it awkward and stressfull at times. The guy is doing all the right things with the dog - training, hunting, obedience. We encountered a guy and his kid and it went up and growled at the kid. It got after my very submissive dog and rolled her 3-4 times when we got together a couple of weeks ago (I left her behind this trip as she is in heat). I am worried this guy is going to sink so much time and effort into this dog only to end up having it put down after something happens. What is the best way to deal with this issue?

[Greg Jennings]

It's a touchy issue. People, especially me, are biased about their dogs. My advice to you is to considerate when you talk to your friend about the dog. Gently tell him that hunting with the DD isn't good for your dog. He'll get the picture.

[AzDoggin]

It's a touchy issue. People, especially me, are biased about their dogs. My advice to you is to considerate when you talk to your friend about the dog. Gently tell him that hunting with the DD isn't good for your dog. He'll get the picture.

Agree with what Greg said. You might also suggest he check out some Dog Whisperer episodes (National Geographic channel). Cesar deals with these dogs regularly.

At 18 months his dog will only increase in aggression without some pretty serious attention toward the problem now. It's definitely time to get going on it if he intends to keep the dog and ever wants to be around people or other dogs.

[windswept]

Tell your friend that you met a guy on an internet forum that had a dog just like his once.
She was the best hunting dog I've ever had. I swear she was magic. She found birds were there were no birds! The only problem was two or three times a year she would get growly with someone or someone's dog. I waited until she attacked my son to put her down. Stupid, stupid stupid.

[prairiefirepointers]

Tell your friend that you met a guy on an internet forum that had a dog just like his once.
She was the best hunting dog I've ever had. I swear she was magic. She found birds were there were no birds! The only problem was two or three times a year she would get growly with someone or someone's dog. I waited until she attacked my son to put her down. Stupid, stupid stupid.

Then Tell your friend that you met ANOTHER guy on an internet forum that had a dog similar to his once. And she was a fantastic birddog. Was his buddy and they were so closely bonded that it somehow skewed his vision and point of view towards her. The dog ended up attacking his expensive brood bitch, and chewed her up real bad. He decided against putting her down, but then again a year and a half later unprovoked it happend again. Even worse. Tell him this guy had to pry the jaws of the attacking dog off his brood bitch with his bare hands. Tell him I was covered in blood from my fingertips to my elbows. Tell him I had to drag the dog out of the pen and shoot her in the head in my front yard. Tell him I cried for days, and I somehow I still wish I could have done something different.

Agressiveness & Birddogs Don't Mix.

[Greg Jennings]

Jess, Tom: Thank you for posting. That situation can't be easy and it can't be easy to talk about.

Greg J.

[Birddogz]

I find that normally it is a lack of assertion by the owner. The minute a dog of mine growled at a person or passive dog is the minute the wood is dropped on that dog. Picked up, put on back, and stare into the eyes until they look away. I have owned many dogs, and have never had one that was mean. I don't know if it is coincidence or not.

[BigShooter]

The issue is that dogs like that can be trained not to display aggression when you are around but what's going to happen one day when he's either not there or not close enough for the dog to mind.

You can also tell him about another guy that got a seven month old ES. Once fully grown and walking on a leash, the bitch postured when encountering any other dog. If the other owner brought their dog over and that dog made any challenge at all the ES would take it on or try to take it on, Doberman, German Sheppard, size & breed didn't matter. This dog also constantly barked and the barks sounded like vocal challenges to other barking dogs in the neighborhood. The dog always carried an electronic bark collar when outside. The dog was sweet tempered otherwise, never growled, was a good hunter. No aggression was displayed towards humans. Then one day at about five years of age, the neighbor boy who had been around the dog off and on its whole life approached the dog from the front and suddenly decided to bend over the dog's head to pet it. Without a sound the dog bit him in the nose. He still carries the scars today. I was at work at the time. I didn't immediately destroy the dog. A few months later my wife was driving the kids on a three hour trip. It was dark, The dog was asleep in the middle of the back seat. My youngest son bent over the dog to hug it. The startled dog bit him in the lip. He also carries the scars. I think the no bark collar conditioned the dog to react by trying to bite at that stimulation around its neck, just like when they try to bite at a bee or biting insect on their skin. Others on the forum have said they didn't believe that could have been a cause and have said you can't ever really trust an aggressive dog.

On the other hand one of my bachelor great uncles had a mixed breed dog on the farm. Inside, under the kitchen table with my uncle seated alongside that dog would sound like it would tear you apart if you made a wrong move and I believe it would have. We hayed for that uncle every summer for years & stopped by several times in the fall to visit so the dog knew us. The dog never bit anyone that I know of but man oh man was he protective and my uncle had to stay on him all the time if someone else was around.

I wouldn't ever own an aggressive dog again.

[prairiefirepointers]

I find that normally it is a lack of assertion by the owner. The minute a dog of mine growled at a person or passive dog is the minute the wood is dropped on that dog. Picked up, put on back, and stare into the eyes until they look away. I have owned many dogs, and have never had one that was mean. I don't know if it is coincidence or not.

Ya know Bdogz, I just don't know if that is a "cure all" for every dog in every sitiuation. On paper, it looks like it should work all the time. However some dogs are just wired different, just like us humans. That's like saying therapy and a Correctional Facility will fix Charlie Manson, because it worked for so and so, because they've found Jesus and now minister to troubled youth.

The issue is that dogs like that can be trained not to display aggression when you are around but what's going to happen one day when he's either not there or not close enough for the dog to mind.

Bigshooter IMO is dead on here. "Brownie" my dog, was like a soft hairy pillow to cuddle with 90% of the time, and a walking minister of death the other 10%. I had tried the aforementioned method by Birddogz. Didn't work. It worked while you were there ahold of her, then turn your back and see what happens. That dog was the toughest, meanest, Most wonderful Dog ever. Yes I intentionally put that sentance together... I never once heard that dog yelp in pain. I had knocked the crap outa that dog for displaying aggression and not a peep out of her. She would wince and that's it. You could turn a collar up on the highest setting and burn her with it, and she'd just look at you. It was like a switch had flipped, and Brownie was gone and this other dog had checked in. I didn't like that dog at all, but I loved Brownie dearly.
I'm not knocking Birddogz's method, I'm Just saying I know first hand that it isn't a "one size fits all" fix.

[Greg Jennings]

Aggression is one of those, "it works except when it doesn't and you can't afford the doesn't" things.

My older dog early on tested us with some possessiveness growling. I let him know that it didn't work. Didn't work with me or the family. It went away. Came back later. Same consequences, same result. We've had no problems since.

Would much rather not have to deal with it. Like dogs that have that perfect disposition.

Greg J.

[Birddogz]

I find that normally it is a lack of assertion by the owner. The minute a dog of mine growled at a person or passive dog is the minute the wood is dropped on that dog. Picked up, put on back, and stare into the eyes until they look away. I have owned many dogs, and have never had one that was mean. I don't know if it is coincidence or not.

Ya know Bdogz, I just don't know if that is a "cure all" for every dog in every sitiuation. On paper, it looks like it should work all the time. However some dogs are just wired different, just like us humans. That's like saying therapy and a Correctional Facility will fix Charlie Manson, because it worked for so and so, because they've found Jesus and now minister to troubled youth.

The issue is that dogs like that can be trained not to display aggression when you are around but what's going to happen one day when he's either not there or not close enough for the dog to mind.

Bigshooter IMO is dead on here. "Brownie" my dog, was like a soft hairy pillow to cuddle with 90% of the time, and a walking minister of death the other 10%. I had tried the aforementioned method by Birddogz. Didn't work. It worked while you were there ahold of her, then turn your back and see what happens. That dog was the toughest, meanest, Most wonderful Dog ever. Yes I intentionally put that sentance together... I never once heard that dog yelp in pain. I had knocked the crap outa that dog for displaying aggression and not a peep out of her. She would wince and that's it. You could turn a collar up on the highest setting and burn her with it, and she'd just look at you. It was like a switch had flipped, and Brownie was gone and this other dog had checked in. I didn't like that dog at all, but I loved Brownie dearly.
I'm not knocking Birddogz's method, I'm Just saying I know first hand that it isn't a "one size fits all" fix.

I agree that one size doesn't fit all. I think my method works better if you start it at puppyhood and use it weekly. Still may not work, but it is worth a shot.

[prairiefirepointers]

I agree that one size doesn't fit all. I think my method works better if you start it at puppyhood and use it weekly. Still may not work, but it is worth a shot.

Definately worth a shot.

I've done this before with by 2 boys (lab & pointer stud) and it works fine. As a matter of fact I thought I might have to utilize it tonight with the 2 boys. My Brood Bitch is in heat and I'm waiting for the right time to breed her with my pointer stud. "Sooner" the lab gets insanely jealous and tried (idunno why) to bow up and fight my Stud. "Cy" my pointer stud is a solid 70 pounds, give or take, and has about 5 pounds of muscle and a couple inches in height on the lab. My stud just rocked his world tonight in all of about 2 seconds, and the lab had it coming. I don't think they've ever sought out to really tear into one another, It's like they have a "gentlemans code". It always happens when a female I have is in heat. Cy just puts him down and stands over him with a threatining look like "what's up now tough guy".

Tonight, I just walked up as my Pointer was standing postured over my lab who was belly up growling like lucifer, and I walked up put my foot on Sooners (the labs) Chest and gently pulled Cy away and in a firm tone said NO!. Cy could tell by my body language and tone of voice he wasn't in trouble, so pulling him off was no deal at all. Sooner I gave a wrap up side the noggin and he shamefully dusted himself off and slunk into the house. (all this happend as I was headed to bible study) :roll:

When I came home, they were nestled up in the mud room as usual, best buddies, like nothing happend. Funny how females make us do stupid stuff we ordinaraly never do.

[Sully]

Hi, my boyfriend pointed me toward this topic, and although I usually don't post anything on here, I couldn't help but say something in regards to this. I grew up in a home with a professional dog trainer, and do some positive reinforcement training myself now. I was taught, and truly believe, that training with aggressive tactics, ie: shock collars, hitting your dog when he/she growls, and the "alfa roll", will and do breed aggressive issues in 99% of dogs. Yes you get the few dogs that respond quite well when these are done, but for the most part, if your dog growls at a dog at 6 months of age, and you hit it, the dog will most likely give no warning the next time to avoid being hit, and this continues in a vicious cycle until eventually the dog attacks a family member or another dog without warning.

If you want good, professional advice about this problem, you need to spend the time and money seeking out a professional trainer that has experience working with aggressive dogs. I understand this is not your dog, and perhaps your friend is not willing to do so, but I can guarantee the dog will be worse if he/she is allowed to continue this behaviour, or aggression tactics are used to deal with it. In that case my only recommendation would be to give the dog to someone who is willing to. The dog is still more than young enough to learn how to be a polite dog, but not if it is allowed to continue in this direction.

I cannot get over the amount of advice given on here on issues that really do matter to the health and life of another dog. Please for the sake of this dog, and others in the same boat, do not take advice from people who do not have the certification to deal with the issues at hand. 9 times out of 10 you will end up making the problem worse, not better.

A very concerned by stander,
T.

[Greg Jennings]

What do you think many of the people on this board do for a living? I can think of 25 professional trainers off the top of my head.

Doesn't mean that you're wrong in this case, just that you're not well informed about the folks here.

[Sully]

I'm very aware that there are Professional Trainers on this form, don't get my wrong, but how many of those trainers posted a reply to this topic? And to be honest, I believe most of those trainers train hunting dogs, to be better hunting dogs. They may deal with agressive tendancies because they have a lot of dogs at their kennel at once, but their main goal in not to fix those problems, it is to make a better hunting dog. I'm not on here to argue with you, or to call out anyone on their training tactics, I just wanted to open this guys eyes that it seems MOST of the people that have replied to this inquiry don't know what they are talking about when it comes to agression, and you if you want to solve the problem, you have to seek a professional that knows what they are talking about.

I apologize if I offended anyone, but I am only concerned about the dog...

T.

[AzDoggin]

I apologize if I offended anyone, but I am only concerned about the dog...T.

I've seen this type of response alot on other dog-related forums.

Unfortunately, the dog isn't sitting at the keyboard, responding on the internet. Dog trainers therefore have to work with people to train dogs, unless you are training a dog you own.

Recall Cesar Millan's intro..."I rehabilitate dogs, and I train people."

[BigShooter]

Sure, it's always good advice to seek the help of a professional when faced with a difficult situation, especially where some risk is involved. Having said that, if an owner isn't able or willing to handle it themselves or pay to have a professional's assistance then what is the advice and what are the options? With an aggressive dog: pay a professional, read as much as you can & try the training yourself, put it down, give it to someone that will have the dog pretty much in isolation out in the country or transfer the dog to someone that wants the dog & has the experience & expertise to train the issue to resolution.

I think the universal advice in the thread has been to just not allow an issue with an aggressive dog go unresolved.

The other advice heard from professional breeders is, "don't breed an aggressive dog".

[AzDoggin]

Sure, it's always good advice to seek the help of a professional when faced with a difficult situation, especially where some risk is involved. Having said that, if an owner isn't able or willing to handle it themselves or pay to have a professional's assistance then what is the advice and what are the options? With an aggressive dog: pay a professional, read as much as you can & try the training yourself, put it down, give it to someone that will have the dog pretty much in isolation out in the country or transfer the dog to someone that wants the dog & has the experience & expertise to train the issue to resolution.

I think the universal advice in the thread has been to just not allow an issue with an aggressive dog go unresolved.

The other advice heard from professional breeders is, "don't breed an aggressive dog".

Mark, I can't speak for her, but I suspect it was the "put it down" option that caused the heightened reaction.

Truth is, there are so-called amateur dog trainers on this forum that I would trust far before other so-called professional trainers in the community. Once again...it's the individual, not the breed (or classification).

I don't mean to minimize the serious of problems caused by aggression in dogs. It's serious business and should be treated as such. Unfortunately, I've just seen the results of a couple of so-called "professional" trainers - made the problem worse, not better.

[BigShooter]

AzH,

I hear what you're saying and don't disagree. I think that falls under the category of, "read as much as you can (books as well as advice from this forum) and try the training yourself". The big concern I heard from Gar-Dog (the OP) and virtually everyone else is to " tell your friend that doing nothing is not an option".

[AzDoggin]

doing nothing is not an option"

Yep.

[prairiefirepointers]

doing nothing is not an option"

Yep.

Oh its an option all right. Unfortunately, one alot of irresponsible people take.. Its just a really bad option.

[ezzy333]

Sully, I doubt if you offended anyone but there will be many of us that will disagree with your assessment that you know better than the ones of us that have had dogs for many years, have dealt with this and other problems many times, and have corrected them using the methods that you say won't work. Yes, most of us have worked primarily with hunting dogs but they respond to training exactly like any other dog. Their breeding is different so their inherited qualities are different but they respond to training just like any other dog. If I correct a dog so it is a better hunting dog it will also be a better pet and companion. The truth is education is a help but it does not replace experience. The two compliment each other and are not an either/or component to training.

There are many trainers on here that make a living training dogs or horses, plus many more that do it as a hobby but have done it for many years. Most of them have been successful and believe it or not many have worked with other dogs besides just hunting dogs. So I hope as you read the posts on here you go away having learned something about what works and what doesn't and add that knowledge to what you have learned previously. It will make you a much better trainer if you realize there are many different methods that work and all dogs are not going to respond the same to a set procedure and may require the trainer to know a lot more than what they have been taught by just going to school or just being able to understand one method of teaching our dogs.

By the way, welcome to the board. Hope you enjoy, learn, and also teach us your ways as we will teach you ours.

Ezzy

[Tas]

There are all different levels of "aggressive" dogs. Some are all show, some are easy to correct, and some are truely aggressive and you trying to "dominate" over the dog will only cause it to raise it's level of aggression. I've learned you have nothing to gain with trying to deal with an aggressive dog. There is one good option that is best for everyone.

I think a more important matter is on this comment:
The other advice heard from professional breeders is, "don't breed an aggressive dog".

The bloodlines of this dog should be known to everyone interested in the breed. The only way to eliminate, or at least greatly reduce, this behavior is to breed it out. Unfortunately this knowledge will be hidden from the breed community and the source of the aggressiveness will continue to be used for breeding. You can only hope it wasn't a popular stud because if it is many pups will carry on the problem.

[prairiefirepointers]

The truth is education is a help but it does not replace experience. The two compliment each other and are not an either/or component to training.

Very well put. A very good point.

[gar-dog]

Thanks everyone for your input. I may just forward this link to my friend. Touchy subject.

[prairiefirepointers]

Thanks everyone for your input. I may just forward this link to my friend. Touchy subject.

Good Idea.. That way he doesn't think its just you, and you're picking on his dog..
Don't forget to point him to the thread "Mean Dog" and "A Heavy, Heavy Heart..." IF that doesn't get his attention, nothing short of a tragedy will. I hope it doesn't come to that. Because I know first hand that it sucks.. big time.