Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

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Ecw21
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Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Ecw21 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:52 pm

Hey all...I know there are a lot of shorthair fans on here and thought I would reach out. A buddy of mine is getting a shorthair pup and he just put a deposit down on a pup. I believe that the kennel is Winkelman's in Rockford, IL....Anyone know anything about them?

Here is the pedigree...I'm a Brit person so I'm hoping for impressions (general, of course....no way of predicting much!) Thanks all!

Eric

Sire:

http://www.winkelmansgundogs.com/filez/TURBOMAX.pdf

Dam:

http://www.winkelmansgundogs.com/filez/ ... ee0001.pdf

Pup will be a foot hunting dog and family pet.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by remmy » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:18 pm

I've never heard of this kennel. Doesn't mean it ain't good. As far as the pedigrees go, I've only heard of maybe one or two dogs in both peds...and that's way back in generation. No titled dogs in there, although the couple I heard of should be titled, I believe, and do not appear titled on the pedigree. Doesn't look like a pedigree I would consider. However, it doesn't mean these dogs don't hunt though.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Tejas » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:03 pm

The Caden stuff on the sires topside three and four generations back is good.....other than that I've got nothing.
Three and four generations back is way back....

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Elroy's Bandit » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:11 pm

Sire- I know Windrow's Saddle Tramp (Cecil), Rowdy Rudy, & Shooting Starr's Mandy which are also in my dog's pedigree....good stuff there.
That is about all I recognize.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Elroy's Bandit » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:44 am

Joseph wrote:Back yard breeding of a bunch of rejects. Good luck!
Joseph,
This could be by far the most ignorant statement I have ever seen on this board & apparently you are clueless if you are lumping the entire line as a "bunch of rejects". You should also be careful trash talking dogs that 1) you obviously know nothing about 2) could be someone on this boards dog 3) does not know the kennel or their qualifications or track record.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Elroy's Bandit » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:24 am

Joseph...opinions are one thing, but calling an entire pedigree a "bunch of rejects" & the breeder a "back yard breeder" seems a bit over the top. Unless you know the dogs and the named breeder, you should be careful with statements like you made. Seems a bit rough on both fronts. Not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion, just thought how you said it was a bit over the top......JMO.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by SD Pheasant Slayer » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:13 pm

Joseph - is every untitled dog worthless in your eyes? There are literally THOUSANDS of great dogs bred every year that come from non-titled parents. Some of the best dogs I've hunted with have nothing of note in they're pedigree - generally because the owners either lacked the time/finances to play the games or they just weren't interested. I own one of them. What's to say the dog doesn't come out of a pair of good guide service dogs that could pass as MH or FC's if you didn't see their pedigrees? Unless you've seen the sire and dam, you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about this litter, and lashing out with terms like "rejects" makes you look like either an uneducated wind-blower, or worse. It's pretty easy to look at a pedigree and recognize a good breeding, but without seeing the dogs, there's no way of knowing that it's a bad breeding. The man (or woman) asked for an opinion, not a putdown. Regardless of whether you think it's an "honest response" or not, you were rude.

Ecw-21 - Pedigrees are a great tool that help us hedge our bets on what type of dog we're going to get, but there is more to a breeding that isn't shown on a pedigree than that is. I don't recognize anything in the last few generations either, but that doesn't mean anything. I probably wouldn't pay a premium price (anything more than $400-$500) for a dog with that breeding, but that's just me. If you're friend has done his research and is looking to get a hunting buddy and family pet, I'm sure he/she will be perfectly happy with the choice. Tell your friend to enjoy the time with the new pup and to give it every opportunity to surprise everyone they meet out in the field.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Ridge-Point » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:21 pm

Joseph wrote:The man asked for an opinion, other than Cecil there is nothing in this ped. to think that these pups are going to be anything other than maybe some nice pets. If you don’t like an honest response than don’t ask!
The same could be said for DC Odyssey's Saint Blitz MH. Yet what did she produce?

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Ridge-Point » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:15 pm

Joseph wrote:Oh did I ruffle someone’s feathers I am so sorry! First of all I will say again if you don’t want an honest answer than you shouldn’t ask. Second I am a lot more familiar with these breeding than any of you. Caden kennels is Dennis Brath an up and coming pro that I know very well. I strongly doubt that any of these dogs are any good, if they were they would be in Eureka with Dennis right now, and they are not. If all you are looking for is a pet that may or may not find a bird, go for it. But if you are looking for a first rate bird dog I would say keep looking. There is very little to nothing to suggest that, in this pedigree. If you think you have a first rate bird dog than go out and prove it, and untill you do you have nothing to say.
You didn't give an honest answer. Unless you have personal experiance with the dogs being bred or with the breeder? Your opinion is actually quite ignorant. If you have an honest opinion then give it, if not why even post in this thread? Only 1/4 of that pedigree has anything to do with Cadens Kennel.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Greg Jennings » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:52 pm

Cecil himself was only a MH. If people had relied only on his title, he would never have been bred. Instead, Dennis and others relied on their judgement of his potential. The rest is history.

No, there is nothing up close in the pedigree that makes me want to drive up there to see them. OTOH, that doesn't mean that the pups don't have potential. It just means that you have to look at the parents first hand

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by briarpatch » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:17 pm

I have to agree with GB
I'm familiar with the Caden, Dixieland , Greif. The Hege Haus, and Wittekind is good German DK blood.
and saddletramp and shooting starr as well in the background ..also clown is mentioned in a dogs name in one of the background dogs names wouldnt be surprised if ya went a little deeper into the pedigree if ya wouldn't find some clown blood...
looks like a few generations back it was a cross of some really good German Blood with some Really Good Field trial Blood ...
Would really need see the parents work since their arent any AKC titled dogs in the close generations as others said... Or find out if the parents have been tested in any venues as others have stated like NAVHDA ..Is there any health testings that have been done on the parents"? Does the pups come with any kind of written Guarantee ?? these are some of the things i would be asking...

But good luck

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by kninebirddog » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:07 pm

Basically a ped is only Icing to a cake no matter how pretty it looks it won't make a cake taste better

what are the Dam and Sire like and the breeders program like

I have seen some outstanding pedigrees where the pups produced weren't worth feeding.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by tro182 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:51 pm

If the breeder tests in NAVHD this may be an indication of the type of pup he is getting. There are alot of things to look at when you get a new pup. The whole ACK things make no difference to me because my new pup would not even be recognized at this time. I would not listen to some know it all on the forum listen to the more moderates.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by PntrRookie » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:58 pm

Joseph wrote:Caden kennels is Dennis Brath an up and coming pro that I know very well.
If you have known Dennis for any extended period of time you would know he is no longer an "up and comer". Very well known and quite a successful record. You would also know it is not "Caden Kennels", It is Cadens. The Remi female he ran years back, that produced Ruger, is a result of a breeding that was not known other than by Cecil. http://www.cadenskennels.com/Pedigrees/ ... eister.pdf Pedigrees do not tell the entire story...

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Greg Jennings » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:49 pm

I've not seen a pedigree point a bird yet. They are like circumstantial evidence.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:08 pm

The litter pedigree also goes back to Esser's Chick, one of the great German bred foundation sires of the modern German shorthaired pointer in America. You'd have to be a pedigree junkie to catch it, though. I believe one of the great trial champions and sires of recent history came from untitled parents. Sanjo Sin City Slicker was his name.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Ecw21 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:18 pm

Thanks everyone for their responses....I really do appreciate the help. The dog will primarily be a pet...he had a chance to go up and see the dam and sire. Didn't see them hunt, but this will primarily be a 'recreational' hunting dog--certainly not looking for an FC champion.

I'm confused as to why Joseph felt he needed to post what he did but I did ask, so I suppose I deserved it. If it were me, I wouldn't have really said anything....but again, he is entitled to his opinion. The man cast his stone, but it seems that most posters were much more constructive in their feedback--I appreciate everyone who weighed in...I discounted Joseph's post almost immediately.

Great information for my friend....he picks the pup up in 2 weeks. He is excited and I, as his 'bird dog' friend, intend to help him anyway that he needs. By this time next year, I hope to have the little fella out on the farms we hunt here in NE Illinois, pointing some pheasants!

As always, humbled by the amount of knowledge and (usually) discretion that everyone on this site has.

Happy Halloween,

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by birddogger » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:11 am

I am going to chime in a little late here, but I have a great hunting GSP and his pedigree doesn't show much until a few generations back. He is a pleasure to hunt with and one of the easiest handling dogs I have ever owned, FWIW.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:43 am

Ecw21 wrote:....he picks the pup up in 2 weeks. He is excited and I, as his 'bird dog' friend, intend to help him anyway that he needs. By this time next year, I hope to have the little fella out on the farms we hunt here in NE Illinois, pointing some pheasants!
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by mcclinj » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:57 pm

As far as the Dam determining 60% offspring, Id suggest you revisit genetics 101...there's a interesting thread of this nature on the board in the last week or two. So your suggesting that it is the field titles that make the dog...not the genes / training? You do realize that with the number of dogs born each year only a small percentage are ever trialed or even hunted for that matter. Potentially dogs with great genes are laying on somebodies living room floor right now, never having been given the opportunity to do more than run around the city park. Likewise, maybe John Doe down the road isn't interested in "dog games" but his dog will hunt and point every bird in the field. It won have a title simply because the owner wasn't interested. I think your comments about untitled dogs being rejects is pretty shortsighted. And what is your definition of reject anyway...no title...no MH...no FC...what? The dog that cant find a bird to save it's life and yet is some little kids best friend...is it a reject?

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:00 pm

Well...some horses are real strong out of the gate but not made for the stretch run...
Some good thoughts and opinions lost in very poor communication skills.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:01 pm

Can I prove my dogs without trialing or do I have to prove them by your standards? Sorry you feel you need to quit but I do understand why you feel that way. Hope you find a forum that has such a narrow understanding of what a sporting dog really is as you do.

Good luck

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by postoakshorthairs » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:05 pm

Joseph wrote:Oh Boy…..Greg if you feel you need to ban me from this site you go right ahead, I am sure Obama will support you all the way.
First, as far as I am concerned only dogs that have proven themselves should be breed. Now just look at the pedigree of these 2 dogs, the sire’s side started as titled dogs, and the Dam’s side for 5 generations has NONE, (the Dam is at least 60% of the pups) so what do you think the next National Champion is going to come from that? I am going to assume, in the beginning that they were breed by field trial people trying to improve on what they had. But the titles stopped, do you think it’s because they were so good that they did not need to prove it any longer or is it because they didn’t pan out? Well can you call them anything else other than “rejects”? Then take into consideration that some of these dogs went through Brath’s hands, do you really think that Brath would have let a first rate dog go. An unproven breeding is nothing more than a back yard breeding.
Now for those of you that think you know Cadens Kennels let me educate you. There are not very many good trainers in the GSP world, there are few that can take an average dog and turn it into a good dog and there are those that can take a good dog and turn it into a great dog and there are trainers that can that a great dog and turn it into a legend I believe that although Brath is fairly new to the sport he will one day become one of the best GSP trainers in the country. I have judged, seen and been braced enough times with Dennis to know that he understands what these dogs need to do and that his dogs are very well trained. This was Denis’s first National Championship, as far as I am concerned he is still up and coming, and I will say “look out”.
Now let’s analyze some of these posts, as I see it you have people on this site that go out and prove that their dog is of high quality and I don’t care how you do it, FC, AFC MH, SH, CH, DC or any other way of putting a field title on a dog, it shows me that your dog hunts, points and is trainable. Now for those of you that say your hunting dog is just as good as the National Champion or for that matter equal to an FC, until you prove it you are delusional and only lying to us and yourself.
HARSH, let me hit you right between the eyes with that one! If you are not breeding to improve on, what I will say is a nice bitch you have NO business doing it, the pounds and GSP rescue is full of pups that where breed by people that just wanted to see what they would get, or puppy mills, or I just wanted to make a few dollars, or just wanted their dog to have a good time. Harsh is an understatement in comparison to what those poor dogs have to endure all because of delusional dog breeders.
You think you have a good dog than prove it, but until you do all you are doing is blowing a lot of hot air.
By the way Greg you don’t have to ban me I QUIT!
Few things...

The OP said from the beginning the interest of the buyer was simply for a companion and personal hunting dog....NOT a national champion. The breeding was already completed so your argument that those dogs shouldn't have been bred (past tense of breed for your future reference) is pointless...the deed was already done.

Educate me on how the bitch gets to put in 60%of the genetics...i'm unfamiliar.

I guess if your intent was to give your opinion in an obnoxious, offputting way you succeeded. I don't disagree with all of what you said but your point is lost in the tone of the message. I don't know Dennis Brath but i hear nothing but good things about him. From what i've heard about him he would have enough class not to trash someones dogs like you did, and i'd be willing to bet he could get endorsements from better sources. As far as "do you really think Brath would have let a first rate dog go" comment...there are several on this forum with dogs from Mr. Brath's breeding program that he "let go" that are pretty accomplished.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:42 pm

User's request granted. Poof!

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:55 pm

Puff was before my time, but I'm plenty familiar with Spectre and Spooky (U model. 25mm replacing the two 20mm Vulcans).

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by lvrgsp » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:17 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Puff was before my time, but I'm plenty familiar with Spectre and Spooky (U model. 25mm replacing the two 20mm Vulcans).

HA!!!! I got that....I'm an Air Force Alum.......

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Ecw21 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:29 pm

I told my bud to check out the thread...he and I got a kick out of it...Thanks Greg!

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by redman25 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:07 am

I'm willing to bet that guy is still ranting and raving to some poor soul about this...... So unfortunate that good folks have to be subjected to jacka$$es like that.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:10 am

Let's let it go. He's no longer here to defend himself.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Wildweeds » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:44 pm

For whatever it's worth..........................Got me a Field Champion in the kennel right now,he was begot from a no namer and a no namer,their parents were also no namers as were their parents, great grandsires were something but that's where the first titled dogs were 4th generation,Got a field champion from backyarders that attained his rank at a whopping 2years and 3 months old, this is a setter,natural dog not manmade 100% birddog.....................the whizbang AF multiple X over AA CH sired dogs I've tried since then................not worth .I'm going to side with the paper ain't squat.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by briarpatch » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:28 pm

by Wildweeds » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:44 pm

I'm going to side with the paper ain't squat.
Well I agree and kinda disagree with the above statement weeds ..
I agree the best way to evaluate what a pup may be someday is to see the parents in action , but even with seeing the parents you dont know exactly how the pup is going to turn out , it still could be a dud , generations of successful dogs tested and proven in a particular area lessons the odds of the dud in the particular area you are hoping for your dog to work in...dont get me wrong you can still get a dud and the paper behind it look real good ..but think looking at the ancestors testing does help to lesson the odds ...

this pedigree for example dogs havnt been tested that we know of in generations and ...generations back is a mix of DK blood and FT blood, two totally different animals,(if ya ask me) so who knows what ya will end up with , pup could be the next hall of fame field trial type dog , or could be a NAVHDA or DK type dog ..or could be a complete dud and end up being a very nice housepet ...without any real evidence of the parents or grandparents themselves or siblings in some type of testing, who knows.. The odds are a little more in your favor if for generations the dogs have been tested and proved themselves in certain areas that would be simular to that which you intend to use the dog for.....
So I believe the paper does mean something...Gives you a little better odds of getting a dog that turns out to work similar to its ancesters...Its all a gamble when buying a pup the object of looking at pedigrees and sizing up the parents and all ..is just about getting the odds more in your favor of getting a dog that turns out to work the way ya hope for..but its still a gamble


Just my thoughts

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Wildweeds » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:03 am

Briar,

I should clarify that I wasn't talking about the OP papers. From my personal experiance with the supposed hot rod papered dogs, From here on out I'll be leanining more towards getting a pup from a female that performs rather than a kennel bound brood bitch who sports a great pedigree.

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by Don » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:33 pm

I'd go look at that litter. Suggestion of Rawhides Clown, Dixieland Luke I believe was out of Dixieland Rusty and that dog was a God in the shorthair world. Very dominate breeder! The von Grief stuff was great stuff, often mixed with Erdinreich's blood from where came erdinrich's Heckla von Griel and that will lead back to Moesggaards Dandy! The Radbach blood is very good blood. Don't believe for one second that because there are no champions to speak of the breeding is bad. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The breeding is still there it just hasn't been shown off. If Rusty had gone to a hunter and been a common dog would his off spring have been any less? I don't think so. You could say that because of his success he attracted better females. Maybe so. In the Setter world two unknown's were bred years ago aand the outcome was Tekoa Mountain Sunrise, an uncommon dog from common parent's. The breeding seem's to be worth looking at in the above litter's to me.
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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by TAK » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:57 pm

It's all Murphey's law! My best dogs have come from well titled/breed dogs! But my buddy has better luck with the dogs his wife brings home! True story! ONE of his best dogs came from a litter that the owners named the dog after them! Ya as if it was a sister or daughter to them, but they went to a stud that had a big name like "Smoke!" Nothing more... Just SMOKE!
Well I stand here to tell ya the "bleep" pup that his wife paid $35 for was a dandy... Did I mention the dog had a tail that was docked like a heeler! The litter owner, young 14 year old kid thought all dogs get the green band at the butt.... Abu learned to wage his arse rather than his tail..... But could he have been a FC... NFC! My opinion yes! And to be honest I hated ALL GSP's after the first few hunts with that dog! Run off, no come-back, flash pointing SOB! Yet in time he began to win me over and he never ever really had any formal training, yet he sure trained the me and the buddy! At that time I ran Brits. It was not long after that I had my first GSP!

So it's not the papers that help... Its if you have that shiit house luck an turn everything you touch into gold!

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Re: Shorthair Advice-Do you know this pedigree?

Post by ACooper » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:50 am

I 100% agree with those that said you have a better chance with dogs that have proven performance, but remember the dogs made the papers good, never have papers made a dog any good.

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