French Britts

[Birddogz]

I have talked to 2 trainers that are very good at what they do. They have mentioned that French Britts can be on the soft side. I have hunted with many, and have NEVER seen one that was soft. I am thinking about owning one in the not too distant future. Have any of you ever heard this before? I have nothing but high praise for the breed personally.

Also what American Brittany breeder is the best in NAVHDA? I would be curious to know. Thank you.

[AzDoggin]

I have talked to 2 trainers that are very good at what they do. They have mentioned that French Britts can be on the soft side. I have hunted with many, and have NEVER seen one that was soft. I am thinking about owning one in the not too distant future. Have any of you ever heard this before? I have nothing but high praise for the breed personally.

Also what American Brittany breeder is the best in NAVHDA? I would be curious to know. Thank you.

I can't speak to the trainers' experiences, but maybe they are speaking in terms of their training methods, and the FB's response in contrast to other breeds' response? Everything I read about the FB's includes descriptors like biddable, willing, cooperative, wanting to please, and so on. Some might consider those characteristics as indicating a "softer" dog.

Heck, I had an American Britt many years ago who would yelp for her momma if you just LOOKED at her as though you were going to put physical pressure on her.

I would bet there is alot of individual variation in the FB breed - some dogs can handle more pressure, some less, but on the average, I'd bet "softer" is probably pretty descriptive.

[ohmymy111]

Hello,

I breed, train and compete French Brittany's. I guess I wonder what you mean by soft? They don't need the harsh discipline maybe some of the other breeds need for training and if you use harsh methods theyt can shutdown.. They are eager to please and as such, frequently pick up training quickly. I just got back from hunting with my dogs in Iowa and Minnesota. They were hunting in some very nasty cover, lots of thorns. They just charge right in and hunt. Frequently after a hunt I find scabs from where they were cut by thorns barb wire or whatever, you don't know it even happened until after the days hunt when you feel the scabs, they showed no sign of it happening.

I had a dog get wacked by a porcupine, he was not a happy camper while we pulled the quills out. He had some we didn't find for almost a week, and couldn't fully use a front leg as a result, as they were in his ankle. Did that stop him from hunting, not a chance, he ran like nothing ever happened, and then would limp the next day. I pulled him out of the field and wouldn't let him run, so he could heal. Boy was he pissed at me, and he let me know it.

I think they are very tough little dogs.

[Greg Jennings]

Birddogz, you might could do as well as Mark as a breeder of the French Britt, but I submit that you will not do better. Give it a go.

Greg J.

[ezzy333]

As a breed the Brittany probably tends to be softer than most other breeds but that is not true of every dog just like any other group you try to but in a box. As Mark explained, there are virtues to being soft as well as disadvantages. Softe just means different and is not a plus or a minus.

Ezzy

[Birddogz]

It is coming down to a French Britt or a PP. I have been researching like a maniac, and just can't decide. I have always had a Britt, but never a FB. I have hunted with them, and LOVE the way they hunt. I also love the PP as well.

When they said soft, I think they meant they would shut down on FF and steadying on a barrel. I personally have never seen one that didn't retrieve or back.

[Ruffshooter]

Physically not soft, pretty darn tough.
Hunting will hunt all day.

Training will put up with most proper training. FF they act soft but really are just playing on your soft side. Just don;t give in. Know what you are doing. Don't get sucked into that pout and big brown eyes.

I got to say though, I like my French Britts but always thought some day, maybe a PP is in the cards.

Rick

[AzDoggin]

Training will put up with most proper training. FF they act soft but really are just playing on your soft side. Just don;t give in. Know what you are doing. Don't get sucked into that pout and big brown eyes.

THAT is the way it was with my Am. Britt. Well described.

[quailrunner]

What is Cooper's pedigree look like. How much does he weigh? Height? Fine, Med, or heavy Bone?
Same questions for Vern.....
I've got 4 females.
2 out of Titus (Plum Creek also kept his daughters as breeding stock)
2-females out of Pepper (Keller's stud dog)

[djloder]

French Britt’s will just try to fool you as they think their smarter then the handler at time and they might be right.

I put my EB through a 12 week force fetch program (my own program) which is in between a conditioned retrieve program and the NAVHDA force fetch program and my pup loved every moment of it. This breed doesn’t need to be broken like some other breeds might need. Most EB’s will do what you ask as they love to please their handler.

gpblitz,
Cooper's best bet would be to start running UKC and getting seen by more EB breeders. Has Copper recived a conformation?

[AzDoggin]

French Britt’s will just try to fool you as they think their smarter then the handler at time and they might be right.

I put my EB through a 12 week force fetch program (my own program) which is in between a conditioned retrieve program and the NAVHDA force fetch program and my pup loved every moment of it. This breed doesn’t need to be broken like some other breeds might need. Most EB’s will do what you ask as they love to please their handler.

Hey, dj, how old was your pup when you did the FF?

[djloder]

He was 17mos old I waited right after his second hunting season. This year he retrives great, woodcock, ruff's, shrapies and hun's havent got him a phez yet.

[kninebirddog]

Just about all of the Eb's I have seen and worked with that are getting away with things many with great drama acts Bottom line..Wrap owners around little paw and have them suckered....I find them to be very smart and if they can figure out how to do what they want and get away with it they play their games to the fullest...I think most should get Oscars and Sag awards for their acts

[AzDoggin]

French Britt’s will just try to fool you as they think their smarter then the handler at time and they might be right

I think most should get Oscars and Sag awards for their acts

Too funny!

[ohmymy111]

Vern's pedigree can be seen here. http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=471 Vern is a medium build dog, very powerful. He is 19 1/2" at the withers, and weighs in at 36lbs

[Neil]

I believe Vern to be worthy of careful consideration, he has done things no other dog has come close to doing.

But I have seen no difference in French and American Brittanys, other than marketing hype. They all come from the same foundation stock.

Pick a good breeding like Vern, and go for it,

Neil

[AzDoggin]

But I have seen no difference in French and American Brittanys, other than marketing hype. They all come from the same foundation stock.
Neil

You must be seeing more black and roan 30 pound American Britts than I am, Neil.

I just found this:

Some Breeders will claim there is an acceptable percentage of American Brittany, but that is now kindly referred to as a myth as the Club of the Empagnuel Breton-US requires a dog to demonstrate that it has no non-UKC registered Epagneul Breton in five generations before the dog can be approved for UKC single registration as a purebred Epagneul Breton. Thus, any breeder that tells you that a small amount of non- Epagneul Breton lineage is acceptable is most likely breeding pups with mixed bloodlines which cannot be registered as an Epagneul Breton. A purebred French Brittany (properly called “Epagneul Breton”) has no acceptable percentage of American Brittany in it.

Source: http://www.coteaukennel.com/UKC_Registr ... s_New_.pdf

American and French Brittany's may have come from the same distant roots, but the branches of the tree have grown in different directions. Definitely there are more similarities than differences, but there appear to be some important differences as well.

[Birddogz]

French Britts are more square. "Cobby" they call it. The color differences are huge, and the natural ability to retrieve is higher in my opinion in the French. The FB also typically doesn't run as big as some of the FT ABs do. I think the FB is a closer working dog on average also.

[quailrunner]

Well I'm a convert. Had Amers for 30+ years and I see a big difference.
I am a Huge Brittany fan to say the Least!!!

[ezzy333]

French Britts are more square. "Cobby" they call it. The color differences are huge, and the natural ability to retrieve is higher in my opinion in the French. The FB also typically doesn't run as big as some of the FT ABs do. I think the FB is a closer working dog on average also.

I think you are right. But the Brits I started with a few years ago were just what you see in the recent imports. The difference today is the result of the dogs being bred for the characteristics that most people wanted to see here in this country. A little more bold, more stylish, more range, less coat, and clearer colored. In a few years you will see the same changes in the recent imports and then someone will want to import more dogs and call them French Brits. It's much like the difference in a DD and GWP or a DK and a GSP. All the same breed but separated by a few generations of dogs bred for a somewhat different environment. As far as the color differences, there certainly are some as the French have included the additional colors that you didn't see back in the days of the earlier imports. Look at the old time pics of dogs in France and all you saw was orange and white with a high percentage of them roan. But color is not a difference that affects the performance characteristics of the breed so should be of little importance in their abilities.

Ezzy

[AzDoggin]

All the same breed but separated by a few generations of dogs bred for a somewhat different environment.
Ezzy

That's well stated, Ezzy, and I have seen that conclusion made elsewhere. It's interesting that it doesn't seem to take too terribly many generations before you start seeing consistent differences if those differences are targeted in the breed stock.

And you're right, color doesn't affect performance, but if coloration is one consistent difference between the AB and the FB, it stands to reason that there COULD BE other characteristics (less obvious) that differ as well. Genetics is a curious phenomenon.

[ezzy333]

All the same breed but separated by a few generations of dogs bred for a somewhat different environment.
Ezzy

That's well stated, Ezzy, and I have seen that conclusion made elsewhere. It's interesting that it doesn't seem to take too terribly many generations before you start seeing consistent differences if those differences are targeted in the breed stock.

And you're right, color doesn't affect performance, but if coloration is one consistent difference between the AB and the FB, it stands to reason that there COULD BE other characteristics (less obvious) that differ as well. Genetics is a curious phenomenon.

There defined differences that are the results of what the trialers and show people call improving the breed while many of the French dogs are still just backyard breeders who breed for the hunting performance that is frowned on by so many here in this country. It is all in what you want and what you consider desirable. Over all I can't argue that we haven't improved the breed but we also have gotten away from some of the good characteristics that the common foot hunter wants in his dog. Think we have confused the terms run and hunt in the past and maybe still are but the added style bolder personality and less coat fits our hunting requirements here that was not as important in France.

Ezzy

[quailrunner]

I used to think color didn't matter much either until I started reading different articles about how pigment effects toughness of the pads. Also, read where darker pigment also contributes to sense of smell.
The article stated that albino dogs have nearly no sense of smell at all. So, if pigment does play a role in these 2 factors, maybe "coloring" does effect performance.
I do think that if a person was to look through the ABC magazine you would see that 90% of the show/field champions pictured are not cobby. American Breeding has stretched the body, to give more lung capacity and longer gait. Most pictures are taken with the dogs rear away from the camera to make the dog appear square. I also think that many of the top field trial lines are putting "setter heads" on their dogs. Just my opinion so don't get your panties in a ruffle.

[ACooper]

Maybe it's more than the head they are putting in?

Just a joke. Couldn't help it!

[AzDoggin]

There defined differences that are the results of what the trialers and show people call improving the breed while many of the French dogs are still just backyard breeders who breed for the hunting performance that is frowned on by so many here in this country. It is all in what you want and what you consider desirable. Over all I can't argue that we haven't improved the breed but we also have gotten away from some of the good characteristics that the common foot hunter wants in his dog. Think we have confused the terms run and hunt in the past and maybe still are but the added style bolder personality and less coat fits our hunting requirements here that was not as important in France.

Ezzy

Definitely smaller numbers of EB's being bred, by breeders that have fewer dogs in general than most major American hunting kennel operations. Even the breeders that breed only, for example, field trial stock from Europe are getting dogs that are closer workers, with cooperation a high priority.

I tried to copy and paste the French field trial format from this site but couldn't - the description is at the bottom of the page: http://french-brittany.com/titles.htm The bottom line is that even the imported field trial champs are closer workers since that characteristic is desired in competitions in France.

Fortunately, the responsible EB breeders have a fairly diverse gene pool given the availability of import dogs. Some of the breeders even go to France to compete in trials, and to continue to build relationships and scout for dogs to improve the breed. Don't know whether Mark has been there, but I'd bet he could take old Vern over and show the Frenchies a thing or two.

[ohmymy111]

I agree that the lines diverged, I suspect primarily as this country was looking for bigger running dogs, that could compete with Setters and Pointers. Will this happen again? Perhaps, but the breeders who are serious about it in this country, which is A LOT of the breeders, are also serious about "standard". We bring a Conformation Judge over from France, to evaluate the dogs during the Nationals. Pretty much everyone that goes to the Nationals puts their dogs in front of the expert for a determination about conformation. We also have a breed seminar at every National event, which is attended by the vast majority of the people that attend the Nationals. Have you ever compared the FCI and UKc breed standard for Epagneul Bretons to the AKC standard for Brittany's? Our standard is WAY more detailed than AKC and we care about the standard. I have talked to people that show dogs, and Judge American Brittany's. Even they admit that conformation of American Brittany's is changing in the ring. They see my dogs, and comment that they are the "OLD" style dogs in the American Brittany world. Very few trialers give a "bleep" about conformation, and have told me so. There are some that do, but most do not, and that is changing the breed a lot.

AKC and more, ABC do not recognize French Brittany's as a distinct breed. That use to bother me, but it doesn't a whole lot anymore. We have a sanctioning body that recognizes them for what they are "Epagneul Breton" which translates to "Spaniel of Brittany". AKC went as far as to change the name of the breed, dropping the Spaniel, a number of years back. I find it humorous that that a Black dog can be registered as a Brittany by AKC even thought it is a breed disqualification, the same goes for a black nose on an Orange dog. If they (AKC and ABC) were actually serious about the standard, they would have done what the French and UKC have recently done, with "Sable" colored dogs, and no longer allowed them to be registered.

AT the end of the day a good dog is a good dog, be it an American Brittany or French Brittany. But to maintain a breed it takes more than that, it takes dedication to breeding to what the definition of that dog is. At this time we are pretty good about it in the French Brittany world. Not perfect, but nothing is perfect, but we are working to keep our breed what they are, and not change them so we can win at some games, e.g. Field Trials...

End of pontification

[quailrunner]

Yeah we have really improved the Am. Brittany's characteristics.
They kinda remind me of a chain smoker that hasn't had a cigarette in 2 days. SSSSShhhhhhaaaaaakkkkkkeeeeee it if you got it.

[ohmymy111]

BTW in this country the French Brittany kennel operations are smaller than some of the American Brittany ones. But in France that is not necessarily true. I visited a breeder who had 100 dogs. He produces a LOT of dogs every year. Most people here, hear 100 dogs, and immediately say puppy mill. That kennel was not by any stretch of the imagination a puppy mill. Those dogs all got training, they had good living accomadations, and many competed either in the ring or in the field.

[ohmymy111]

Yes I have been to France to compete, only just once, and once to buy a dog. I plan on going back to compete the next time with a dog I produced. And yes Vern did well. The French were very nice. They were tickled pink that an Amrican would come all that way to compete in their trial. Even in the trials where Vern did not do as well, they would have us stand up, and thank us for coming.

[quailrunner]

Mark,
Could you tell any difference between dogs produced by one breeder or another? Do you see "lines"?

[ohmymy111]

There are some differences, such as I have a prefernce for Roan colored dogs. I have never produced a clear coated dog, and most likely never will. But to say I can look at a dog and tell you what kennel it came from, no, I can't do that, perhaps with the occasional exception of some of the dogs that have American Brittany in the background. The dogs with American Brittany in the last 5 generations can not be registered in UKC, and there are more dogs out there than you might think that have been crossed.

[ohmymy111]

I would also ask, that please do not think I am the definiative authority on French Brittany's I am far from that. There are people that know more than I do, and people that know less.

[ezzy333]

I agree that the lines diverged, I suspect primarily as this country was looking for bigger running dogs, that could compete with Setters and Pointers. Will this happen again? Perhaps, but the breeders who are serious about it in this country, which is A LOT of the breeders, are also serious about "standard". We bring a Conformation Judge over from France, to evaluate the dogs during the Nationals. Pretty much everyone that goes to the Nationals puts their dogs in front of the expert for a determination about conformation. We also have a breed seminar at every National event, which is attended by the vast majority of the people that attend the Nationals. Have you ever compared the FCI and UKc breed standard for Epagneul Bretons to the AKC standard for Brittany's? Our standard is WAY more detailed than AKC and we care about the standard. I have talked to people that show dogs, and Judge American Brittany's. Even they admit that conformation of American Brittany's is changing in the ring. They see my dogs, and comment that they are the "OLD" style dogs in the American Brittany world. Very few trialers give a "bleep" about conformation, and have told me so. There are some that do, but most do not, and that is changing the breed a lot.

AKC and more, ABC do not recognize French Brittany's as a distinct breed. That use to bother me, but it doesn't a whole lot anymore. We have a sanctioning body that recognizes them for what they are "Epagneul Breton" which translates to "Spaniel of Brittany". AKC went as far as to change the name of the breed, dropping the Spaniel, a number of years back. I find it humorous that that a Black dog can be registered as a Brittany by AKC even thought it is a breed disqualification, the same goes for a black nose on an Orange dog. If they (AKC and ABC) were actually serious about the standard, they would have done what the French and UKC have recently done, with "Sable" colored dogs, and no longer allowed them to be registered.

Great post and true as far as maintaining a breed. As far as AKC goes though, they didn't change the name or anything else. That was the American Brittany Club that did that. Akc just maintains the std book but it is up to the ABC members to set the standards and like so many clubs they haven't done a real good job of it. But I sure like the idea of combining the conformation and performance standards and checking the dogs to see they meet at least minimum requirements.

Ezzy

AT the end of the day a good dog is a good dog, be it an American Brittany or French Brittany. But to maintain a breed it takes more than that, it takes dedication to breeding to what the definition of that dog is. At this time we are pretty good about it in the French Brittany world. Not perfect, but nothing is perfect, but we are working to keep our breed what they are, and not change them so we can win at some games, e.g. Field Trials...

End of pontification

[AzDoggin]

Interesting that the EB club brings a conformation judge over from France. Is there a similar evaluation of hunting ability and temperament or does that evaluation come primarily from performance in trials and/or observations from hunters?

I know that some of the German breeds (e.g., DD, DK) have strict conformation + temperament + performance requirements before a litter can be produced.

The Pudelpointer standard is almost entirely temperament + hunting performance, and as a result there is quite a bit of variability in coat, facial furnishings, etc. Choosing for hunting ability certainly does create a capable hunting breed, though, judging from all the NAVHDA titles on the PP's.

[ohmymy111]

The evaluation for hunting is done via Field Trials. The National Club when bringing over someone, looks for someone that can Judge ring and Field. This year Jean Carpentey, who is not only a Judge in the ring and show, but also is a trainer of Judges came over. He was joined by Serge Guilbert, who is a Field Trial Judge in France, and past President of the French National Club. Both were very personable and easy to approach, along with being very knowledgable.

There is no temperment judging per se, but that being said, when two dogs began to be aggresive at the start of their run, both dogs were immediately disqualified. This was the run to determine which dog would recieve 1st Place during a Stake at the National Trials this year. As a result no placements were given, as there is no tolerance for that. In a different trial, the run to determine 1st place was ended early. Vern was one of the 2 dogs in the run. The other dog bumped him 3 times, and Vern turned, growled and was about to attack the other dog. I called Vern off immediately, and Vern was awarded 1st Place, as the other dog was provoking him, and he came off as soon as I told him too. So provacation is taken into consideration in determining whether to disqualify a dog.

[Neil]

I find it humorous that that a Black dog can be registered as a Brittany by AKC even thought it is a breed disqualification, the same goes for a black nose on an Orange dog. If they (AKC and ABC) were actually serious about the standard, they would have done what the French and UKC have recently done, with "Sable" colored dogs, and no longer allowed them to be registered.

"Humorous" ? The fact that most of us would never own, let alone breed a dog with a disqualification, we are OK with the AKC position that Registered to Registered = Registered, the breed warden concept has never caught on in the freedom loving US.

And if you will take time to view some of the old photos and films of the first Britt imports to the US (1920's) you will see that there have always been at least two distinct types/lines; the longer legged setter type and the shorter coupled more spaniel type. It was the French that changed the breed, not us, including the change to allow black.

And as Mark knows Ken Blackman has an All-Age Field Champion French Brittany that has ran at Ames Plantation, proving that they will run as big as needed to get the job done. Like most things it is more environment and training, not just genetics.

Field trials may be a game, Mark, but it is an independent measure of a dog's ability. A game you seem to think important when you win.

Neil

[ohmymy111]

You can ask most people that know me, I think It is a game when I have a dog win, and it is a game when I have a dog that doesn't win. The latter is more common that the former, as it is with any dog. I think that Field Trials are important, but are they an accurate judgement of hunting in a dog? Personally I don't think so, but they are what we have, and I enjoy playing them. Well most of the time, as I have been frustrated a time or two.

So you are saying we shouldn't be breeding French Brittany's as they have a breed disqualification? I have seen a number of dogs that are being bred by reputable Brittany breeders, that are out of standard. They don't seem to care, because they are winning, and that is all that matters isn't it?

I am not going to get into a debate over whether the older dogs from France look like the American Brittany of today. You have your opinion, I have mine, and that is that.

I do agree, that training, especially at the very early stages, 6 months and earlier have a great impact on range of a dog. Do I believe this breed is meant to have dogs that have an All Age run, no. Do I believe there will be the occasional one that does, yes. Should we breed with that goal in mind, not a chance, because then we will be breeding away from what these dogs were originally bred for, and hence changing the standard, and the definition of what this breed is.

[Neil]

I am saying that those that believe in the dual standard will not breed dogs that have a disqualifying fault, there is a reason that there are more Dual Champion Brittanys than any other AKC breed, by a large margin.

Mark, I guess you can argue with photographic evidence and history if you wish. But I have two AKC registered AB's, in my kennel right now; one, if it had a long tail, could pass for a setter, the other, if it had a black nose, would pass for an EB. Both are from NFC DC's. I have studied the AKC and the French Standard, and I fail to see the specificity you state, they are pretty close, other than the black and the EB can be a bit larger.

I have seen a number of EB's and in my learned opinion, they are Brittanys, just different lines.

I do not think field trials are the perfect measure of a dog's value in the field, but they are the only independent, published records we have. They maybe a game, but they simulate what I, and most others, prize in a hunting dog.

We do agree that both lines (or in your mind, breeds) are nice dogs, let's leave it at that.

Neil

[fourtrax]

Just got back from South Dakota. Hunted all 3 of my Breton-s during the two days of Blizzard like conditions of 40+ MPH winds steady with higher gusts.
Sloppy wet snow & ice balls whacking me in the face. Dogs hunted all day both days. Pointed birds close & intensly. Hunted hard. Miserable, cold, wet, nasty
about sums up the conditions of the 26-27th of October. We were doing well despite the weather. Soft --- definitely not. Also definitely not
KNOT headed. You don't need a 2x4 to get a French Britts attention. What kept mine hunting in horrible conditions was conditioning & pure desire.
The intensity in all 3 was high. Bird finding I thought was very good considering the wind. It was so "bleep" windy it was like walking up a steep hill.

[fourtrax]

As far as Black being a breed disqualification.................
Where exactly do you think the Brittany Breed came from? The AKC?
Last time I checked French Britts were around before American Britts. The same as France was "around" before the US.
They are separate breeds designed for separate jobs - purposes. Both are / can be good at what they are bred for.

To consider them as the same breed is old, dated news.

I only hunt them, no games. The Breton's work GREAT FOR ME. I would hunt an American Britt. just as proudly if I had one that hunts like a Breton.
There are plenty of Great American Britts out there as there are good dogs in all the hunting breeds.

Two of mine are rescue dogs of good lineage and one I have had from a pup. The two rescue dogs just needed a chance to
get in the field, a little traiining & a lot of opportunity to do what they are bred for. They hunt great & I would not trade them for any other dog.
Alas, all our little hunting buddies are not with us long enough to waste time not hunting, trialing, training them when an opportunity exists.

[slistoe]

As far as Black being a breed disqualification.................
Where exactly do you think the Brittany Breed came from? The AKC?
Last time I checked French Britts were around before American Britts. The same as France was "around" before the US.
They are separate breeds designed for separate jobs - purposes. Both are / can be good at what they are bred for.

If you want to believe it....... there is ocean front property in Arizona as well.

Funny thing is that I recently found a parallel in Language. My father learned Norwegian as a first language. It was Norwegian as was known in ND and SK. It was the Norwegian of his ancestors. He went to Norway to visit relatives but first brushed up on his Norwegian with his brothers and sisters. When he arrived he had trouble understanding them and they him. In Norway the language had evolved through the past century since his ancestors had emigrated. Some of the oldtimers remembered pieces of the phrasology and the dialect he was using. To the younger ones it was a horribly "bleep" version of their language - they had no concept of its conformation to the original tongue.

[Neil]

Fourtrax,

Either you don't know and are just believing the breeder hype or you just want to argue.

Black was not allowed in the French standard at the time it was adopted in the US, in fact we pretty much adopted the French standard in total, that is why they are so similar. The French changed it. We have, here in the US, tended to breed to those dogs that best hunted how and where we hunt, so we went more to the longer legged line.

Some more history, at the time of their first import, the Brittany was able to beat pointer and setters in field trials. We did not as Mark says, change the breed to do so, they have always been able to.

As for spaniel in the name, that was a translation thing, by the French, it was called that as it was believed to be from early Spanish pointers, as were the first spaniels. From the time of it earliest development the Brittany has always pointed, and should never have been called a spaniel.

There are some very nice French Brittanys and if you want to pay a premium for them, buying the marketing of the importing breeders, I think it great. But there is a very real reason that the American Brittany Club does not recognize it as a separate breed, it is not.

Neil

[ezzy333]

Fourtrax,

Either you don't know and are just believing the breeder hype or you just want to argue.

Black was not allowed in the French standard at the time it was adopted in the US, in fact we pretty much adopted the French standard in total, that is why they are so similar. The French changed it. We have, here in the US, tended to breed to those dogs that best hunted how and where we hunt, so we went more to the longer legged line.

Some more history, at the time of their first import, the Brittany was able to beat pointer and setters in field trials. We did not as Mark says, change the breed to do so, they have always been able to.

As for spaniel in the name, that was a translation thing, by the French, it was called that as it was believed to be from early Spanish pointers, as were the first spaniels. From the time of it earliest development the Brittany has always pointed, and should never have been called a spaniel.

There are some very nice French Brittanys and if you want to pay a premium for them, buying the marketing of the importing breeders, I think it great. But there is a very real reason that the American Brittany Club does not recognize it as a separate breed, it is not.

Neil

Thee is not a single thing in this post that is not accurate if you go back and read or listen to some of us that have been around most of that time. My first dogs had French dogs in the pedigree and were judged against the then French standard that we adopted. Brits are great dogs as they have been for years and will continue to be whether they were hatched in France or here in the US.

Ezzy

[AzDoggin]

you just want to argue.

Dogs, lines, breeds, call them whatever you want for the sake of argument, it's an academic one that you have obviously had before, and likely will keep having. I'm not aware of a prize for "winning" this argument.

Put out a prototype EB and a prototype AB and they look mostly the same, but some different.

They hunt mostly the same but some different.

EB's are seperated by a minimum of 5 generations and in most cases many more generations from AB's, but they originate from the same source.

The breeding goals of EB breeders and AB breeders show some differences, and there appears to be a market of dog buyers for both.

As far as buyers "paying a premium" for an EB, I have an AB breeder here that charges more than any EB breeder that I'm aware of, so there seems to be variation there as well, although the "average" AB pup probably does cost a little less than the "average" EB pup - I don't know that for sure and don't really care. As you know, the price of a pup ends up being pretty insignificant in the long-term cost of hunting/trialing dog ownership.

Chances are pretty good this discussion has gone on in other breed groups as well. For example, English setters, where there a couple different lines that have evolved to meet the needs of the folks who fancy 'em. You have the sleek, fast, AA variety and the larger bodied, slower moving so-called "old fashioned" setter - the Ryman/Old Hemlock lines. It's clear that the two oringated from the same stock, but have clearly evolved over time to meet divergent needs of different folks.

[Birddogz]

[quote="ohmymy111"]You can ask most people that know me, I think It is a game when I have a dog win, and it is a game when I have a dog that doesn't win. The latter is more common that the former, as it is with any dog. I think that Field Trials are important, but are they an accurate judgement of hunting in a dog? Personally I don't think so, but they are what we have, and I enjoy playing them. Well most of the time, as I have been frustrated a time or two.






I couldn't agree more. How can it be the honest test of a gun dog when nothing is retrieved, shot, and many times people hunt on horses. Of course most of us hunt off of horses. Walking trials are better, just not the test of a HUNTING dog.

[AzDoggin]

Walking trials are better, just not the test of a HUNTING dog.

Maybe not the test, but I would argue still offer the benefits of extending the season, giving training goals, experiences hunting with a bracemate, proofing training amidst distractions, and so on. Same with the hunting "tests" as in NAVHDA. To me, it's hard to argue against activities that cause you to work a longer season with your dog, and amidst distractions that you might not face when hunting. It also gives at least something to help discriminate one breeders dogs from another breeders dogs without having to go hunt with each. Gives some "external validation" of many of the characteristics that make good hunting dogs, IMO.

[ohmymy111]

As usual this is devolving into the same old arguement, sad.

Some people think that just because people such as myself, who is in the French Brittany world, and others that I won't name, as they don't need to be pulled into this if they don't wish, in the American Brittany world, think that the dogs are NOT the same breed, then we must be attacking the other breed. Personally, I currently have 2 American Brittany's at home. I don't desire to breed American Brittany's, but I can recognize the good qualities that they have. I have been a member of the ABC, but no longer am, and have been a member of, and on the BOD of a local American Brittant Club, so I think it would be impossible to say that I don't like American Brittany's. One of the American Brittany's I have IS a Show Champion. If she were not injured at the moment, I would take a picture of her next to ant of my French Brittany's, 4 of whom are Show Champions, and let you compare the 2 breeds for yourself.

Both Breeds have great qualities, but the dogs are different. Yes there are dogs from both breeds that look like the other. They came for the same place and lines, so of course that is going to happen, but the majority do not. There are people that cross the 2, Follensby in the past, and I know of one doing it now, and I am sure there are more. How well are those dogs being accepted in the American Brittany World? I know they are not accepted in the French Brittany World.

[Birddogz]

Walking trials are better, just not the test of a HUNTING dog.

Maybe not the test, but I would argue still offer the benefits of extending the season, giving training goals, experiences hunting with a bracemate, proofing training amidst distractions, and so on. Same with the hunting "tests" as in NAVHDA. To me, it's hard to argue against activities that cause you to work a longer season with your dog, and amidst distractions that you might not face when hunting. It also gives at least something to help discriminate one breeders dogs from another breeders dogs without having to go hunt with each. Gives some "external validation" of many of the characteristics that make good hunting dogs, IMO.

Totally agree, the "games" are very important to the imrovement of all breeds. I just think that they are far from a COMPLETE test of a hunting dog. Unfortunately, many folks think trials=hunting, and that just isn't the case. NAVHDA comes the closest in my estimation to what a hunting dog should be able to do. Again, I will restate this as I'm sure someone will attack me, FTs and other games have helped contribute to the evolution of the bird dog, in a meaningful and positive way, in general.

[AzDoggin]

Birdogz, maybe in some parts of the country, trialing options are about all they have given the lack of wild birds? Trialing at least you have some control over the opportunity to "hunt," - hunting, per se, not so much.

[quailrunner]

Once upon a time there was a native dog in France called the Epagneul Breton. These dogs were owned and bred by the common every day man as well as the rich estate owner. They were cobby, had black in the coat, and had naturally bobbed tails. Along comes the French government, they open the country to tourism, and the rich estate owners are financially able to capitalize on the new laws, and open up their estates to foreign sportsman. With the sportsman come their dogs; setters, springers and whatever else they had at they time. These dogs breed with the Epagnuel Breton and the rich estate owners call the offspring by the same name, although obviously they are not, but having the wealth, power and influence they get away with it. Now it's time to set up a breed standard, The first draft is written by the common every day Epagnuel Breton owner, who still have the native type dog. The wealthy disagree with this standard, and change it to suit their dogs and eliminate the little guy. It takes 50 or so years for the French Native Epagnuel Breton owners and breeders to get the official standard back to what it should have been in the first place.
Meanwhile we Americans see the Wealthy Estate owners version of the Epagnuel Breton as we are their kicking some German butt. The dogs look regal, running around abandoned Estates, and they are all orange/white. So they say to themselves: These dogs must be the real pure bred French Brittany, not the multicolored, black mutts running around the poor farm houses.
So we import some of the dogs, and the wealthy man's standards, we don't have enough of the dogs to have a good gene pool, and we want to change some things to suit our needs so we throw in a little more setter blood here and there and cull like crazy. Then we fight amongst ourselves over the same things the French fought over more than 50 years ago. Go figure!