Best nose on an EP?

Truthseeker
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Truthseeker » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:38 pm

so if you dont agree with the venue and dont think it proves a whole lot other than "run and point" why do you continue buying pups from these guys?

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Yawallac » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:57 pm

...and have been told by at least one of them who has raised some champions in his venue which happens to be a horseback venue that they don't even shoot the birds that are pointed. The dogs run huge, find wild birds, point them, the dogs are graded on style and finds, the handlers dismount flush the birds, the dog stands for the flush and watches the birds fly away and they are graded on steadiness and then the dog are released to find more birds. These dogs are not gunproofed nor are they required to retrieve or ff trained or even to handle to any extent because of the size of the fields these dogs are running on. Basically the handlers just follow the dogs on horseback and allow the dogs to find birds themselves and sometimes they won't see the dogs for several minutes to an hour.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Greg Jennings » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:01 pm

Tommyboy, that's a huge misunderstanding and generalization of horseback venues.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:06 pm

Yep Tommyboy, that is way off base. Does that white dog in your avatar have a pedigree you can post?

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by scott townsend » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:58 pm

[quote][/quote] A dog with a marginal nose but great ground speed, that can be handled, will beat the best nose in the world because I can keep that dog in front of the other dog and he'll get to the birds before the other dog every time.

Ross that statement just does not make any sense. If a dog has great ground speed and wants to find ANY birds, it had better have a good nose. I would think it wouldn't matter what venue it runs in.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by hustonmc » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:03 pm

There is a difference between just running to run and running smartly, hunting objectives, hunting the wind, etc. Horseback trial dogs are going to show stamina, stamina and more stamina, exactly what I need hunting ridge tops and canyons for 3-5 hours. Shows the dog is biddable..........very biddable. Not only were they trained to be steady WSF, they took that training and maintained STYLE!!!!!!! Some dogs just don't have what it takes to be broke WSF and then maintain that for a trailing career. Absolutley the dog has to be able to handle, you have a course the dogs has to run, not just run over 3 ridges a go on point, don't won't get found and your not going to win. You can't judge a dog on his run if you never see the dog, should ride an AA or SD stake Tommy, not as out of conrol as you imagine. AA/SD you name it a venue I definatley look at.

As for letting the dog run and find birds, that's exactly what I do....he's hunting, not me. I make sure he doesn't go where I'm not tough enough to go.............(sometimes), so I do make him handle it's a must. But I just walk along enjoying the view, waiting for the dog to go on point, go to the dog, and shoot ther birds, off too the next birds.

What this all comes down to, and has been mentioned time and time again. There are good dogs, bad dogs and great dogs in each venue. You do not gauge the dog by the games they play, but judge the dog by the dog and what they produce.

IMO the dog with the best nose, is the one with the most brains.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by scott townsend » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:19 pm

Yawallac wrote:

I owned the SC Region High Point Dog, SC Dog of the Year and a NSTRA Champion that I don't remember ever finishing out of the ribbons. He was an incredible NSTRA dog and he was bred once and produced a DOY, High Pt Dog and Multi-time NSTRA Champion ...but as great a NSTRA dog as he was, he was also a very mediocre wild bird dog and I wouldn't want to base a breeding program on his NSTRA record.


Ross, like you, I also had a NSTRA champion and region high point dog, plus the region finals winner.But until I left the state and started trialing at the nationals where you compete against good dogs from all over the US and Canada I never really got a taste of how good some of those NSTRA dogs were. I was merely getting a sampling at the region level.

I agree with Brends statement of there really are no NSTRA bloodlines. Almost all of them orginate back to the horseback stuff. The same goes for CLJ.
With that said I handled a son of CLJ for several yrs(Burchels Dutchman) the dog had an incredable nose, was incredibly intelligent as well as tons of bottom.. Even managed to win some with him. I wish I could find another just like him.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by scott townsend » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:22 pm

hustonmc wrote:
IMO the dog with the best nose, is the one with the most brains.

Amen to that, well said every great bird finder I have seen has alwys been uncommonly intelligent.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Maurice » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:40 pm

Tommyboy and others interested in the CLJ or Slatecreek Doc type dogs should give my friend Mike Branscum a call. Mike lives in Nancy Ky. It was not long ago that he raised a frozen semen litter out of Branscums Nickel. He is still breeding this line of pointer. I was at his place not long ago and he really has some impressive dogs at his kennel. Yeah one came home with me, I have always been a fan of this line of dogs. You can email me if you would like Mike's phone number. They are great wild bird dogs that have won in horseback, walking and nstra trials. Mike was real strong in NBHA trials for many years.

Mo

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by snips » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:51 pm

He probably bred Copper Nickle Mo?
brenda

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by gunner » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:21 pm

Tommy me Lad, regarding those horseback dog trials...

Advice from Poppa.....

"In order to write about life
first you must live it."

Ernest Hemingway

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Ron R » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:23 pm

Maurice wrote:Tommyboy and others interested in the CLJ or Slatecreek Doc type dogs should give my friend Mike Branscum a call. Mike lives in Nancy Ky. It was not long ago that he raised a frozen semen litter out of Branscums Nickel. He is still breeding this line of pointer.
Is he still able to cross it with Pike Creek Mike stuff, if so I'm very interested. I believe that the heavy Pike Creek Mike influence (via Pike Creek Spikette) is what makes the CLJ stuff so special and the same goes with Slatecreek Doc.
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Maurice » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:25 pm

snips wrote:He probably bred Copper Nickle Mo?
Brenda I think maybe he did. I will ask him. I sure liked the Copper stuff too. Hope you and Rick are doing well.

Mo

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by gunner » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:46 pm

Crow's Little Joe's pedigree shows he decended from a line of a number of great horseback trial champions. Branscom's Nickle < Pike Creek Mike, HOF Red Water Rex, Tiny Wahoo, Ennis Drug Delivery, The Texas Squire, Riggin's White Knight etc....The fruit does not fall far from the tree.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Ron R » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:52 pm

gunner wrote:Crow's Little Joe's pedigree shows he decended from a line of a number of great horseback trial champions.
Along with EVERY pointer in the world :wink: .
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:29 pm

Yawallac wrote:
...and have been told by at least one of them who has raised some champions in his venue which happens to be a horseback venue that they don't even shoot the birds that are pointed. The dogs run huge, find wild birds, point them, the dogs are graded on style and finds, the handlers dismount flush the birds, the dog stands for the flush and watches the birds fly away and they are graded on steadiness and then the dog are released to find more birds. These dogs are not gunproofed nor are they required to retrieve or ff trained or even to handle to any extent because of the size of the fields these dogs are running on. Basically the handlers just follow the dogs on horseback and allow the dogs to find birds themselves and sometimes they won't see the dogs for several minutes to an hour.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ross I agree. I have heard alot of terrible things about horseback trials but this is the WORST explanation I've ever heard... Don't knock it until you tried it heck even witnessed it... An All-Age pointer needs to have the best handle of any dog or else you just loose them and don't win, most people would notice it if they saw it or even appreciate it for that. Off base sorry but had to say something...
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by tommyboy72 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:18 pm

Fellas I am only going on what a buddy of mine , who also trials in a horseback venue and breeds horseback trial dogs told me. I have not been to a horseback venue because as far as the ones around here go I do not believe they allow walking observers, you must ride, and I hate horses. Maybe where you compete they are different. Sorry I am only repeating what was told to me by a competitor.

I continue to get dogs from them because for what I want they make good wild quail and pheasant dogs. They run big, start early, learn fast and find birds. I said ,if you read my statement, that I liked the dogs but just didn't think that type of venue proved much and that left a bit to be desired for every day hunting dogs. The dogs themselves have proven themselves at least the ones I have owned.

Chukar if you look at the bottom of my posts in my signature you will see a link for her pedigree. Her name is Annie.

I wasn't trying to stir the pot or become the target of everyone's wrath here.

You horseback guys are a bit touchy aren't you? :lol:

Seems to me you guys are a bit elitist as well. There is only one way of evaluating a dog and that is it. If it isn't done your way then it is wrong. At least some of the guys from the other venues are willing to admit there are different ways of doing things when it comes to dog. Get off your high horses. Pun intended. :) Relax fellas.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:23 pm

WOW! :o :o
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by JKP » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:25 pm

I agree with Brends statement of there really are no NSTRA bloodlines. Almost all of them orginate back to the horseback stuff. The same goes for CLJ.
Sounds to me like NSTRA in many cases is giving good testament to FT!!!
...and have been told by at least one of them who has raised some champions in his venue which happens to be a horseback venue that they don't even shoot the birds that are pointed. The dogs run huge, find wild birds, point them, the dogs are graded on style and finds, the handlers dismount flush the birds, the dog stands for the flush and watches the birds fly away and they are graded on steadiness and then the dog are released to find more birds. These dogs are not gunproofed nor are they required to retrieve or ff trained or even to handle to any extent because of the size of the fields these dogs are running on. Basically the handlers just follow the dogs on horseback and allow the dogs to find birds themselves and sometimes they won't see the dogs for several minutes to an hour.
Would someone explain why this is not accurate....are not the dogs and finds handled in this manner? aren't most stakes non-retrieving?
I disagree with dogs not handling...I think handling at this level is just not what the average dog owner would recognize as handling. But to be fair, don't a reasonable amount of FT dogs go lost (Sarah this past week, Ross)? or run out of sight for extended periods of time? Don't FT reports (they're on the net) make that clear? I'm not trying to criticize FT...I just think that those in the sport have a hard time admitting the problems when trying to raise such dogs. When you're trying to keep dogs on the edge of brilliance, its easy to go over...I think that is part of FT too.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:32 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:.
They run big, start early, learn fast and find birds. .
Very true
tommyboy72 wrote:.
just didn't think that type of venue proved much and that left a bit to be desired for every day hunting dogs.
:?: :?:
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:41 pm

Maurice wrote:Tommyboy and others interested in the CLJ or Slatecreek Doc type dogs should give my friend Mike Branscum a call. Mike lives in Nancy Ky. It was not long ago that he raised a frozen semen litter out of Branscums Nickel. He is still breeding this line of pointer. I was at his place not long ago and he really has some impressive dogs at his kennel. Yeah one came home with me, I have always been a fan of this line of dogs. You can email me if you would like Mike's phone number. They are great wild bird dogs that have won in horseback, walking and nstra trials. Mike was real strong in NBHA trials for many years.

Mo
Hit her on the head MO, I talked with Mike this summer right before he did that breeding, if memory serves me correctly there might be one pup still available.
I enjoy my conversations with Mike he's a wealth of knowledge, I believe he is crossing it back in with some Lancelot stuff Ron, he seeems to like what he is getting out of that cross. As far as PCM goes, well thats a long story for another thread...... :wink:

If ya cannot get ahold of Mike get ahold of Jonesy on here he lives not to far from him...

Copper Nickel
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They all go back to Branscum's Nickel....... :wink:
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:49 pm

There's a point I think some are missing with field trial dogs. You are not on horseback because you are trying to keep up with the dog, you are on horseback to show the dog can be handled at any range. Yes they run big when ran off horseback, but the good ones will handle just as good at acceptable "foot hunting" range. If you want a dog hunting 40yds. in front of you while horseback, why do you need the horse? And to answer how many birds does a dog run by? Not very many if you want to win!! I don't think there is a trialer in the world that won't say first you need a "bird dog" then if it has enough talent it might make a good trial dog
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Yawallac » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:18 pm

Ross that statement just does not make any sense. If a dog has great ground speed and wants to find ANY birds, it had better have a good nose.
Obviously the dog needs enough nose to find birds Scott, that wasn't the point. And contrary to the assertion that all dogs with great noses have great brains ...I've seen dogs w/natural talent not have the intelligence to utilize it. I have also seen dogs of average abilties compensate their weaknesses with great intelligence to become fine hunting dogs. It's not all black and white imo.

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Ron R » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:30 pm

lvrgsp wrote:Copper Nickel
Crows Little Joe
Southern Doctor
Wilshers Southern Son
Nickels Dollar Bill
Slate Creek Doc
They all go back to Branscum's Nickel.......
They all go back to Red Water Rex via Pike Creek Mike with the exception of Slatecreek Doc (via River Red) :mrgreen: .
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by tailcrackin » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:56 pm

I see where Mike an my names got put up here in this topic, Mike and I have talked alot and I know him pretty well. That Branscum's Nickel dog produced alot of great dogs that didnt have any Pike Creek Mike, or Red Water Rex in them. We both agree, or strongly believe that the bird dog has to start with the head, the head has to be mentally sound. Then you go to the skeleton, that has to be put together right also, from the mouth to the hips, and all the ankles. I know that Mike, wont own, breed, or sale anything with a skeleton that doesnt look or act normal.
Ron, there were some great crosses with Pike Creek Mike, and Branscum's Nickel. Some of Nickel's winningest pups died early because of accidents, with no Red water Rex in them, or health problems.
The names are:
Ch. Walmart Rip
R-U Ch Randy's Ramblin Jill
R-U Ch Branscum's Julie
Come A Long Charles
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You should have heard the story Dewey Mullins talks on, he owned Bearwallow Babe that produced Builder's Addition, and Builder's Freeboy. He is now in his 90's but he will tell you in person, or on the phone, about what a great dog Branscum's Nickel really was. He will tell you about when Mike called and entered Nickel in a National Championship Qualifier trial. How the proffessional AA pros made fun of him because Mike ran him in walking dogs. They wanted to see he him run....... they watched him win that trial, along with another qualifying trial, that he was placed second in. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by tailcrackin » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:10 pm

Hey Ron R., was just curious, does Pea Patch Penny go back to Red Water Rex? I am not 100%, but dont believe she does. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Pointers_31 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:35 pm

This is a forum and anybody can say and tell everyone what their dogs do, and how great they are. Whether it be a meat dog or a trial dog, each person's perception of a great dog usually differs greatly. I don't get all of the poking and proding that people are doing on here?? We are all on here for the same reason....our dogs! Good, bad, or indifferent we all share a same and unique love for one thing...BIRDDOGS! I have field trial dogs, and I have hunting dogs. All are English Pointers...just my preference! I have been around a lot of different breeds and some are good and some are bad. I'm putting pointers in the "bad" column as well, because I've owned some. I browse a few different forums and there is a particular forum that all they talk/argue about on it is the difference between a meat dog and trial dogs. One gentleman in particular really is outspoken about how much he dislikes any dog that has anything to do with trialing. I no longer pay much attention to that forum. I don't want this one to become a b#### session about that, because I really enjoy reading about other peoples stories and knowledge about dogs. I could talk birddogs all day long and not get tired of it, but I can't. I wish I could bird hunt and trial everyday of my life, but I can't. These forums are the closest I can get to that, so please don't ruin this for many of us. Especially us who don't have anything better to do than dream about being in the field with their dogs, instead of having to work so we will one day be able to do hunt, trial, or train everyday.

Off my soapbox now! :lol:

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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by Ron R » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:43 am

tailcrackin wrote:Hey Ron R., was just curious, does Pea Patch Penny go back to Red Water Rex? I am not 100%, but dont believe she does. Thanks Jonesy
Good Question, I'm not sure but I think that she goes back to Paladin's Royal Flush or Riggin's White Knight for some reason. I don't have anything against Nickel. Many people like different bloodlines and my favorite is Crow's Little Joe and Branscum's Nickel is a part of that, along with Pike Creek Mike.
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Re: Best nose on an EP?

Post by tailcrackin » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:44 pm

Brenda, Copper Nickel was bred out of Branscum's Nickel, by David Wren. Thanks Jonesy
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