Best nose on an EP?

[tommyboy72]

Just out of curiousity I was wondering what EP line some of the guys thought had the strongest nose? I have never owned a dog out of this line but I have always heard fantastic things about the noses on dogs from the Crows Little Joe line. I personally like the Miller and Whippoorwill dogs but was just wondering what some of the EP experts had to say. Civilized discussion and criticism only please.

[Coveyrise64]

Rawhide's Clown.....

Coveyrise64

[Don]

Tekoa Mountain Sunrise!

[ymepointer]

Rawhide's Clown.....

Coveyrise64

Yes but the breeder never said which Pointers he used to come up with Clown

[tommyboy72]

Don I actually have a 9 year old setter out of Tekoa Mountain Sunrise and she does have a heck of a nose but I was just sort of interested in EP lines.

[Chukar12]

Yes but the breeder never said which Pointers he used to come up with Clown

...a brutal counter punch

[Yawallac]

IMO the Fiddler bred dogs (Honky Tonk, Joe Shadow, Rock Acre, etc.) consistently have very good noses.

[tommyboy72]

Thanks Ross I know pretty much all of the EP lines have great noses I was just sort of interested in the best of the best and it's opinions like yours that I was looking for. Thanks for the input. Thank everyone else as well.

[TAK]

Rawhide's Clown.....

Coveyrise64

Yes but the breeder never said which Pointers he used to come up with Clown

No.. no... no.... It was Clown that was introduced to the Pointer lines! But not for what you think.... It was to clean up the BITE on them pointers!

[tommyboy72]

I know a guy who lives 20 miles away and owns a large kennel and breeds several litters a year who also horseback trials and he breeds all Rock Acre stuff. I have had a few dogs from him that were trial rejects but they all acted a bit weird.

[Coveyrise64]

Rawhide's Clown.....

Coveyrise64

Yes but the breeder never said which Pointers he used to come up with Clown

No.. no... no.... It was Clown that was introduced to the Pointer lines! But not for what you think.... It was to clean up the BITE on them pointers!

You'all are too funny......I guess he took a pup for the stud fee?

That has to happen every so often I suppose, pretty smart move by the pointer guys. To much inbreeding of the pointers can cause those problems.

Coveyrise64

[Yawallac]

...he breeds all Rock Acre stuff.

The only worry you have with that ...is this!!!

[tommyboy72]

Looks like 9 little bundles of joy there.

[Ron R]

Ross
Who is the sire and dam of that litter?

[Yawallac]

Ross
Who is the sire and dam of that litter?

Looks like a Guard Rail x Tomoka cross!

[ymepointer]

I am sure she's just having a bad hair day...

[Dirtysteve]

Ross would that be Blackhawk Stuff?
If so the rumors may be true

[Yawallac]

Ross would that be Blackhawk Stuff?
If so the rumors may be true

What rumors?!?!

[ymepointer]

Looks like a Clown X Sunrise cross to me

[up-hunter]

at least she is not tri color lol

[Dirtysteve]

at least she is not tri color lol

Hmmm
I have seen that from those same lines this week

[Don]

Ross would that be Blackhawk Stuff?
If so the rumors may be true

What rumors?!?!

OOPS! Don't dropper!

[straightup1]

Fiddler bred dogs. I prefer Fiddler crossed on Elhew and specifically McGoo bred.

[Yawallac]

...and specifically McGoo bred.

That would put the bird dog (Guard Rail) in them.

[straightup1]

I agree Ross, Guard Rail is a contributor that cannot be discounted. I like it best through the dams.

My experience has been McGoo or his sons Chapparal and Damascus crossed on Fiddler have produced some of the best dogs I've gunned over. Big noses and bird crazy. On the Fiddler side, Fiddler's Ace and Fiddler's Ace crossed onto Guard Rail is what I look for.

[Oscar]

My Supershadow and Miller Silver Bullet female - by a Guard raill female - always seems to know where are the bird .

In this case, the wild quail did not walk because there was full of grass to hide .




ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qExr7jJiHXQ

[Yawallac]

Oscar, please post a pedigree to your dog.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com

Thanks,
Ross.

[Oscar]

Hi Ross

This is his pedigree

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3190

And you know Native Rail is by CH GUARD RAIL and
CH NATIVE DANCER


Thanks you

Oscar

[Yawallac]

Can't wait for him to get some experience with the CLJ dogs so he can offer us his insight on them.

CLJ certainly seems to have a fan base. The problem I have with CLJ is that I have no idea what kind of dog he is or what he can produce. Unfortunately, being a NSTRA Champion tells me nothing. If he was a horseback AA Champion or horseback/walking SD Champion I would have something to go by, but winning at NSTRA tells me very little about the dog as a possible stud.

[its the dog]

Can't wait for him to get some experience with the CLJ dogs so he can offer us his insight on them.

CLJ certainly seems to have a fan base. The problem I have with CLJ is that I have no idea what kind of dog he is or what he can produce. Unfortunately, being a NSTRA Champion tells me nothing. If he was a horseback AA Champion or horseback/walking SD Champion I would have something to go by, but winning at NSTRA tells me very little about the dog as a possible stud.

I'm interested in finding out the info on this as I have no experience with trialing.

[tommyboy72]

I was sort of hoping RonR would chime in on this and give some insight on the CLJ dogs. He has a wealth of knowledge and knows his NSTRA dogs especially CLJ.

[Drifter Saver]

I have both trialed and hunted behind Crow's Little Joe dogs. They were both grandsons sired by Burchell's Dutchman. One was Miller on the bottom and one was double-bred CLJ. both dogs were HARD charging dogs with a natural range that exceeded the NSTRA game and truthfully further than most want to foot hunt. I have seen many offspring. Most of them pull their tail a little bit, but they mature early and have a lot of natural instincts. I play NSTRA, but I break a lot of my dogs STWS to title them as MH's first. Both of these animals were broke STWS and they were broke out early. One had placements in NBHA and one had placements in the grouse woods. I currently have a foundation female (my avatar dog) that is Shadow's Attitude on the top bred to a sister of Burchell's Dutchman. I really like that cross (as have many) as it brings the good traits of both sides to the table (usually). Generally a good bird finder, strong noses and still biddable.

[Yawallac]

Well he produced more NSTRA champions than any dog ever and only had limited breeding the last 4+ years of his life. He was an incredible producer.

That hardly makes him an "incredible producer" ...of anything other than NSTRA dogs. NSTRA is as much about the owners dedication and willingness to go to enough trials and the handlers ability to shoot straight. A NSTRA Championship tells me that the dog is biddable and will handle, the dog can find planted birds and will retrieve. It doesn't tell me what I need to know to breed the dog. It doesn't tell me how the dog looks going ...style on point ...how it applies itself ...and most importantly, it doesn't tell me if the dog can find birds in a natural environment with real objectives.

I owned the SC Region High Point Dog, SC Dog of the Year and a NSTRA Champion that I don't remember ever finishing out of the ribbons. He was an incredible NSTRA dog and he was bred once and produced a DOY, High Pt Dog and Multi-time NSTRA Champion ...but as great a NSTRA dog as he was, he was also a very mediocre wild bird dog and I wouldn't want to base a breeding program on his NSTRA record.

All I am saying is that if you are looking for a NSTRA dog then get a NSTRA bred dog, but if you are looking for a hunting dog ...then you need more information. And as a serious breeder, you need much more information. CLJ may indeed be all that you are suggesting ...but I need more proof.

[Truthseeker]

so would you say that breeders who are building there program on NSTRA dogs are wasting there time?

[JKP]

so would you say that breeders who are building there program on NSTRA dogs are wasting there time?

I'd like to know this too. I have no NSTRA experience but from what I have heard it is more about playing in a fishbowl than actual hunting...so many birds in a confined area...results dependent on the dog and the handler being able to move quickly from bird to bird...steadiness less an issue....as dependent on the shooter...sounds like a nice game...don't think it proves much as far as the dog. I would expect any decent dog to find 6 birds in forty acres....and whether it takes 3 minutes or 10 minutes seems irrelevant to whether a dog can find the one covey of sharpies on a windy day in 640 acres...point them from 50 yds so they don't bust....and remain steady after the shot so that I can kill the bird that holds back.

Somebody explain it to me...maybe I'm seeing it wrong.

[gittrdonebritts]

I wouldn't want to base a breeding program on his NSTRA record.

a little off topic but many people have based there breeding program off of buddy (nolans last bullet) and done very well no extremely well so what are you saying a NSTRA dog who wins can only produce other NSTRA dogs ? I have and have meet and hunted over many dogs from buddy breedings and they were all really good wild bird dogs.

[hustonmc]

I have no NSTRA experience but from what I have heard it is more about playing in a fishbowl than actual hunting

I would suggest you attend a trial before voicing incorrect statements on a National Organization that you admit to having no expirience with, my .02

...so many birds in a confined area..

Actually 5 quail in a field ranging from 30-50acres, field vary, but as does the quality of fields in any venue.

....results dependent on the dog and the handler being able to move quickly from bird to bird.....

You bet!!!!!! Speed is an major factor, your braced with another dog taking quail out of YOUR field, if you want to win and win alot, you better have a fast dog.

....steadiness less an issue.........

The most incorrect statement you've made. According to the National juding guidelines a dog is scored in the 80-100 category with NO movement, total intensity, high on both ends, this score given to an excellent find. 60-79 is a good find. A few steps but nothing endangering the flush, must show intensity, no more then 1 major fault that I just stated (lack of intensity, endagering flush, etc), 40-59 the above score with lack of intensity, flagging, or looking around often, or a dog that reloactes on his own with above fault. 20-39 is a Poor find, a dog that creeps in on it's birds, total lack of intensity, poor loaction of the bird, below 20 any combination of 2 major faults, with poor loaction and lack of intensity. Yes a dog that retrieves with 80's needs to find and extra bird or 2, and yes, then at that time that dog will beat a steadier dog with less birds

....I would expect any decent dog to find 6 birds in forty acres....and whether it takes 3 minutes or 10 minutes seems irrelevant to whether a dog can find the one covey of sharpies on a windy day in 640 acres...point them from 50 yds so they don't bust....and remain steady after the shot so that I can kill the bird that holds back..........

You would be shocked how many good wild bird dogs can't find anything in that 40acre field, in the allowed 30minutes. As you probably known a covey of 10 sharpies will likely put off quite a bit more scent then a single bob white. Just because these dog run in small field does not mean they are not capable of running in 640. THe handler keeps the dog in that field to find as many quail as possible to rack up his score. Dog MUST find birds to win, MUST!!!!

I'm not going to state that ALL NSTRA champions make great or even good dogs. Like Yawllac stated alot depends on how much that dog is campaigned. But were not talking just a championship. Just like I would not want to breed to a dog that got lucky one day with the right judge and had his 1 derby placement to get into a championship as an AA then after his 10th run put down a great performace and got his crown. Being a NSTRA champion means nothing to me either, unless I see how much that dog was ran, how consistant. CLJ WAS VERY VERY VERY CONSISTANT. HE ruled for YEARS!!!!

[Yawallac]

gitterdone,

Buddy proved that he could produce more than NSTRA dogs. CLJ may also prove to produce more than NSTRA dogs ...but until he does I don't feel comfortable experimenting.

[snips]

I thought CLJ was an AWSOME dog.......I did not think he produced awsome dogs..I trained quite a few that were not much....He did produce a few very good dogs, but he was bred a million times....(alot).... I thought Copper Nickle was a great producer (Joe's Sire)...I did not see anything out of CN I would not own. JMO... Watching Joe and Wilsher Southern Son run is what made me own a few pointers...They were creme of the crop as far as NSTRA pointers went! Would they run and compete in other venues? No doubt in my mind they coulda....Guess we'll never know:)

[Truthseeker]

so if a person wanted to start a breeding program should they just look to the trials for prospects? would you be wasting your time with NAVHDA and NSTRA dogs?

[JKP]

hustonmc,
Steadiness to me is through the fall....a dog that charges with the first fall is going to bust birds or get in a fight when it gets to the bird.

When I saw a pair of spiked track shoes that a friend uses for NSTRA events, I lost all interest. I'll continue to "measure" dogs on wild birds...on the tough birds..mid/late season sharpies...roughed grouse when the wind is blowing....manners behind game on tough moving birds....

I'm sure that there are some excellent dogs in NSTRA but it wouldn't show me near enough about a dog.

[hustonmc]

I'll continue to "measure" dogs on wild birds...on the tough birds..mid/late season sharpies...roughed grouse when the wind is blowing....manners behind game on tough moving birds.....

I'll agree with this 110%

I also believe 110% that those dogs I speak of, those consistant winners are going to do exactly what you speak of. As for the training, the dog has no control on how steady he was trained. Although I look for a dog with brains, that shows the ability to be trained. A dog that learns the NSTRA game, just like they learn different birds in different conditions, shows me the brains to be trained however I would have pleased. Now passing that on is an whole other issue. But as far as NSTRA goes the number one key, above all else is......... nose, or as I like to say, the ability to know how to use their nose and find birds where other dogs could not.

[Yawallac]

But as far as NSTRA goes the number one key, above all else is......... nose, or as I like to say, the ability to know how to use their nose and find birds where other dogs could not.

I disagree, a marginal nose combined w/the willingness to handle can do well in NSTRA. IMO, biddablility and intelligence are more important traits in a NSTRA dog. In fact I would take it a step further and suggest that a true chokebore nose can be a disadvantage in NSTRA because the dog would point the planted birds from too great a distance to be as effective. You want the bird pinned close so that you can get it in the air with as little searching as possible to save time. If the dog has an average nose but you can thread a needle with him you can win in NSTRA. Another important trait is ground speed. A dog with a marginal nose but great ground speed, that can be handled, will beat the best nose in the world because I can keep that dog in front of the other dog and he'll get to the birds before the other dog every time.

Some of the traits that make a successful NSTRA dog are also traits that are important to a breeding program, but some are not. As indicated a dog with a marginal nose can be very effective and win championships in NSTRA, but I wouldn't want that in our breeding program. However, if I was breeding specifically for NSTRA than a winning NSTRA dog would be a great place to start looking.

[Drifter Saver]

Attempting to discredit a dog like CLJ because of his venue is simply nepotistic. His breeding produced an Ames champion. Call it what you want, but it did. If you can't look at a dog in ANY venue and evaluate it, you probably aren't qualified to objectively look at a dog anyway. I have played multiple games and the only difference is the training and the judging guidelines. All the horse-bleep about being STWS compared to force-broke means nothing to me...just training. There are weak dogs in any game just like there are strong dogs. I have been in the field several times with American Field champions (cover dog) and NGSPA titled animals. My dogs always carry their own wait because I give them the hunting exposure. I especially like when the "AF" champions blow backs and my dog stands steady while it just had its grouse blown up. It happens, and my point is they aren't at a higher level in an objective viewpoint.

[snips]

There are no NSTRA lines in dogs....There are many different bloodlines that make up NSTRA dogs. So it is a matter of sifting thru the most successful dogs running and figure out if those were the bloodlines to want. We had several generations of multiple NSTRA Ch's, but they were made up of various DC and FC and NFC's.....They were not our NSTRA lines.....As Howie said, figure out what kind of dog you want to produce....I do not think anyone should have a breeding program until they prove the dogs they are breeding in some sort of venue....So good luck.

[Yawallac]

Attempting to discredit a dog like CLJ because of his venue is simply nepotistic.

I never discredited CLJ Drifter, I simply stated that he has not proven himself enough for our breeding program. What are his AF numbers? Do you know?

His breeding produced an Ames champion.

He was in a pedigree of a dog that won at Ames. That hardly makes it "his breeding" imo. I closer look at the pedigree may shed a different opinion (pssssst Miller).

Sorry Ross, but this time you are uninformed (which admitably does not happen real often). CLJ is VERY well known for producing incredible wild bird dogs.

Shawn, I learned long ago that what someone else considers an "incredible wild bird dog" can often turn out to be very average. I want to see measured results in venues that test for what I want.

NSTRA is the "meat and potato" guys that get out and wear the rubber off their boots both in the field trials and on wild birds. To knock them or the type of dog they breed for because they don't run the fufu trials is a bit much.

Shawn I know what NSTRA is, I competed in it ...successfully. Have you? Sorry but NSTRA is NOT a proving ground for wild bird dogs. It's a great dog game like all the rest. Why do you NSTRA wonks get so upset if anyone says anything about the venue? It simply is what it is.

Snips, I agree completely.

[Greg Jennings]

Please, please keep it between the lines, guys. Read other folks posts, don't just glance at them. Take care with the inflammatory word choices and count to 10 before you hit that Submit button.

Greg J.

[Yawallac]

Boot leather and rubber teaches a guy real quick what's worth hunting over and what's not.

Shawn, I agree and I know you have seen your share of good dogs and bad. I respect your opinion and I certainly didn't mean to discredit CLJ or NSTRA in any way. Wasn't trying to step on toes ...just trying to shed some light on how we make breeding decisions ...as if anyone cares how we do it anyway!

[JKP]

All our venues leave important questions that need to be asked. NON are a guarantor of everything. But if you know what they do address and have enough experience to "measure" what you are seeing, they do provide valuable info. IMO, folks who buy dogs on titles or numbers in any venue are buying the results....but how you got there is more important in my opinion.

Boot leather and rubber teaches a guy real quick what's worth hunting over and what's not.

BINGO!! Couldn't agree more...but its real easy to think you have something great when you don't have contact with the "outside world".
Competing/testing is a good way of staying in touch with where you really are...because you WILL see more gifted dogs that will remind you where you need to go....at least that's what I think as a breeder. I went to the Hegewald in Germany in 2003 and watched a young bitch put down a 500 yd gun dog stake and then go to the water and be the most disciplined/obedient water dog you could want...just flipped the switch....just impressive. Performance like that remind me I can't be complacent yet.

I think Ross hits the nail on the head...games are what they are....they are not definitive.

[tommyboy72]

I don't trial myself. Not enough money and it is too far for me to drive to trials that are not horseback trials and I hate horses. That being said I have friends who I buy dogs from that are horseback trialers and have been told by at least one of them who has raised some champions in his venue which happens to be a horseback venue that they don't even shoot the birds that are pointed. The dogs run huge, find wild birds, point them, the dogs are graded on style and finds, the handlers dismount flush the birds, the dog stands for the flush and watches the birds fly away and they are graded on steadiness and then the dog are released to find more birds. These dogs are not gunproofed nor are they required to retrieve or ff trained or even to handle to any extent because of the size of the fields these dogs are running on. Basically the handlers just follow the dogs on horseback and allow the dogs to find birds themselves and sometimes they won't see the dogs for several minutes to an hour. Doesn't really show me much other than a dog can run and can point the birds they find. How many birds are passed over with a dog running that big in an area that big? Isn't that leaving out part of the equation by not requiring dogs to be gunproofed and to retrieve birds? That being said I do get dogs from these guys because they run big and I can rein in their range to suit me to about 4 or 500 yards. They are smart dogs and are good bird finders and seem to start early. I am a fan of the dogs just not of the venue. If that makes sense.