Info on setters

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pinebrookkennel
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Info on setters

Post by pinebrookkennel » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:06 pm

I am looking for some info on setters.
First why are there several typs of setters ( English Raymon, Llewellin ). If there are major differences What are they ? The AKC only lists one type on there page. Is there a sight out there to get some info on size, gate, coat, marking, tempermant.

Thanks for the info.
Jered
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Re: Info on setters

Post by BoJack » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:27 pm

GOOGLE
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Re: Info on setters

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:01 pm

Yep...I agree with TCJACK Ryman is your man

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:24 pm

Jered,
All the different Setter dogs came from the same linage long ago, and different people in different Countries refined the dogs by color and size, forming
English Setters, Irish Setter, Gordon Setter, and several other lesser known Setter dogs. The Breed standard English Setter here in the USA, can be traced back to
Count Noble and others like Sir Roger DeCoverly. George Ryman took the DeCoverly blood line and developed his own American Dual type English Setter line, in the mountains of Pa, for the specific purpose of Grouse hunting here in the USA. The Llew line also traced to Count Noble refined its blood line and is still tracable by Pedigree even today. Later the FDSB was formed and the field bred Setter, usually smaller in size was accepted as part of the FDSB English Setter Pedigree, this Setter does not have to meet breed standard, as did the Count or Sir Roger DeCoverly. So when you are looking to purchase an English Setter dog today you must do your home work and investigate what kind of English Setter dog you want to own, do you want a FT type dog, or do you want a Daul type Ryman dog. Each has been bred differently. All are great dogs, you must understand what you are purchasing, to get the English Setter animal you really want.
Hope a helped you a might.
RGD/Dave

Clooney and Irish Setter just won Best in show - Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show
A Setter is a Setter

Pine Creek Ryman Daisy looks on as Ken admires the Grouse she pointed for him.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by solon » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:08 am

There is an informative essay on the setters in America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries at this site, which is when the split between field and bench became fixed:

http://www.fosteraward.com/Essays%20fro ... #Dual_Dogs_

I think Ryan Frame wrote it. He is a student of setter history and is Dave Hughes' assistant at Hughesview kennel. It is interesting that the Llewellin strain dominated the trial game in those days (no longer) and the Laverack setter dominated the bench. There was some confusion between the field and bench types because apparently there were two different breed standards, neither of which resemble the English Setter Standard of today. Some of the bench shows were apparently for the field dogs, at least a few field dogs had bench wins. The field type setter had the American Standard, the so called "Utility Setter", and the bench dogs went with the English Standard. All of the setters then were medium size dogs with the field trial type the same as today in size and conformation. By and large, there never were any real "Dual Setters" so RGD is correct to call what we have today "Dual Type". The bench folks morphed the original English standard into the bigger, hairier dogs we see in the show ring now. The dual type setters of today are bred for hunting and a classic look and they wouldn't stand a chance in a modern conformation competition (nor in field trials for that matter).

Solon

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:02 am

Solon,
Ryan is correct about a lot of the history he sights but he leaves out what tends not to prove his points, he is after all a Cover dog man who works for Dave H.
He also likes to write. He leaves out Sir Roger DeCoverly in all his writing because Sir Roger was a Dual Champion of both field and show. Further George Ryman bred to
the accepted ES original standard, spelled out by the ES club in England, Ryan for the most part side steps this entire topic. In fact George Ryman did not breed large Setter dogs, the FDSB accepted an ES, that in no way meets the original ES standard and permitted pedigree registration. The confusion comes in because Ellen Ryman once George passed, started breeding her own version of Georges great dogs, her overly big ES. The problem is the kennel name is attached to both the dogs George bred, and the dogs Ellen bred later. Ryan also leaves out that George Ryman in his time was payed to judge both field and show and was payed big money to evaluate ES stock that would meet breed standard, for breeding purposes. The dual dog did exist, the hunting contest where the Grouse was actually shot, was replaced by our modern field trials, Ryan also leaves this major point out. This one change alone changed everything, George Ryman from that point on, never participated in another contest, Ryman believed the dog had to do the full job, including retrieving to be worthy of his wins and titles. All this Ryan fails to cover, because it changes everything and fails to prove the point he is trying to sell. However lots of Ryans work is just fantastic, and I like it very much, it just does not go far enough.
RGD/Dave

Sir Roger DeCoverly the bench mark for George Rymans great Pa Grouse Dogs

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Re: Info on setters

Post by SpinJen » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:51 am

This thread is great for me! I appreciate all the information. I have been looking at the English Setters since I saw the pictures posted of Pine Creek Ryman Daisy and her buddy. Beautiful dogs!


Edit: While I'm thinking about it, what types of events other than conformation are the ES suited for?
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Re: Info on setters

Post by solon » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:57 am

I am no authority on setters and have no reason to research the history with any vigor. I am a friend of Ryan's though. I found this in Fetters Setters:

quote: "Sir Roger DeCoverly never became a champion, never won any championship awards for field or bench show competition.
. There are no American Kennel Club or Field Dog Stud Book records giving Sir Roger DeCoverly credit for winning any championship trophies or ribbons.
. It could in fact make one ask, if Sir Roger DeCoverly wasn't a champion, then why photograph him with a table full of trophies and ribbons?
. However the reason for this has already been stated: for promotional and prestige reasons. "

That may be why Ryan didn't include that dog.

For more info see:
http://fetters-setters-ryman-english-se ... gspot.com/

Solon

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:06 pm

Solon,
Fetters is no kind of authority on Ryman or DeCoverly in fact he for his own reasons, goes out of his way to put out misinformation.
I have seen his sight and his info is historically incorrect, gathered from questionable sourses, which he uses to propigate his own business.
You can believe Fetter or Ryman, take your pick, down thru history lots of other men, have tried to malign George Ryman & his business
this Fetter, is just the latest in a long line of small time breeders trying to make a name for himself.

RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Grouse Dog Guy » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:12 pm

I don't believe Ryman's dogs ever won any computations of note like a grouse championship. What he did compete in was good old boy shoot to retrieve stuff on planted birds against other backyard bred dogs of the time. He was smart enough to out cross to champion field trial dogs to induce some vigor into his line but that ended with his sickness and death.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:41 pm

Grouse dog Guy,
Spoken like a true Cover dog owner, please believe what you like. I will tell you this, George Ryman never took part in any planted bird competitions, or field trials.
George bred his dogs to the accepted ES Standard, for the hunting of wild Grouse, from Pa to Canada he had his own gun dog training camps, for accomplishing this kind of training & hunting, George knew when the FT games became popular and the birds no longer had to be shot, everything would change. Sam Light raised and trained
some of the best FT type ES dogs in history, but when Sam Light hunted Grouse he hunted behind his Ryman Setter. Sam knew the difference between his dogs and
George Rymans, today few people understand the difference.
RGD/Dave

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Grouse Dog Guy » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:56 pm

Beano, if you can't tell the truth you need to make sure there isn't anyone around that knows your lying. Sam never had a Ryman dog but he did have a very nice 20ga Parker. He didn't need a make believe dog because he had a kennel full of real grouse dogs that proved they were grouse dogs in championship competition like Sam L's Rebel who I bred a bitch to in 1960!

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Re: Info on setters

Post by gunner » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:15 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote "
"The dual dog did exist, the hunting contest where the Grouse was actually shot, was replaced by our modern field trials, Ryan also leaves this major point out. This one change alone changed everything, George Ryman from that point on, never participated in another contest, Ryman believed the dog had to do the full job, including retrieving to be worthy of his wins and titles."


( Decades before George Ryman became involved with bird dogs, field trials were being held since 1874 in the US)
One of the early outstanding pointing dog trainers, field trial competitor (won his first field trial in 1876), book author and sporting dog magazine correspondent, C. B Whitford wrote in his 1908 classic "Training the Bird Dog."
"For many years retrieving has not been required at field trials. Retrieving, however, is properly barred at field trials inasmuch as it is an artificial quality. The poorest dog for a trial might be made the best retriever.
The first matter ever published in this country on forcing setters and pointers to retrieve was written by the writer for Arnold Burger's book in 1874.
The system of force worked out and laid down many years ago is in all essential respects the same as that used in all works on retrieving"

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:24 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:...correct about a lot of the history he sights(sp) but he leaves out what tends not to prove his points....
Hello Kettle...I'm Pot.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by gunner » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:35 pm

"For more info see:"
http://fetters-setters-ryman-english-se ... factsmyths
Thanks Solon. Facinating read.

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tip of the hat to Fred

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:11 pm

Gentlemen,
You can believe what ever you wish, I knew George Ryman when I was a boy, my Grandfather and George were quite good friends, and all the stories that have been made up about him are pure crap, I also knew Sam long before he became famous for his Ft type dogs, it always amazes me how people who had little or no contact with both these Pa men can tell me so much about them and their dogs.

Gunner I see you have a picture of Georges Grave, I was their when they burried him, along with my Grandfather and Father, I do know just a might about
him and his dogs.

RGD/Dave

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Quailtail » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:48 pm

It seems that most of the old pictures I see of Setters on point, their tails are low. Was this in the bloodlines to begin with?

Seems now everybody wants a dog that is high on both ends.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:01 pm

The "set" in setters might be a tipoff...then think nets.

Be careful of the setter info placed on a BB...some info is obviously backed-up well and some is driven to impress; bend facts a certain way; uphold an imagined tradition; or to pull in customers/sycophants.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by solon » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:04 pm

RGD,

I don't think that John Fetters' articles are very critical of George Ryman at all. For example: "And that with whatever methods he actually employed, it is still an indisputable fact that George Ryman was a breeder of many fine English Setter gun dogs. " I can't see that his sources are so suspect. He used Ryman's old brochures, letters, photos and videos, and personal testimony. He states that George bred for a certain type using some bench type setter blood and with mainly Llewellin blood. Whatever blood, he tested his setters in the field and was an avid hunter himself. The rest of the evidence presented argues that when Ryman died, the Ryman line essentially died with him. His widow and Caulkin, and others since, seemed to continue the operation as a puppy mill with breeding stock not tested by hunting or in any competition and they marketed a large number of pups relying on the original Ryman reputation. That practice seems to have continued to some extent even to this day with various Ryman type setter breeders. George was not against using field trial dogs in his breeding and it seems clear that he expected his dogs to be successful hunting grouse. Apparently he made outcrosses to other types of setters and did a lot of experimentation to develop the Ryman type. Whether a good grouse dog in his day with the grouse of the time is what would be successful today, we can only speculate. The bigger so called dual dogs mainly came after Ryman's death.

It seems you have made the same claim yourself on other boards that the Rymans of today are not the same as the original.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by BoJack » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:44 pm

Sam Light owning a Ryman Setter?Ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha,ha ha ha. Spit my coffee out,That's a good one!!
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my $.02 on this thread...

Post by 4ShotB » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:35 am

which will add little or no value to the discussion :D ...but as I continue to do research towards getting my first dog...it is just plain confusing as I talk to people or read about dogs I get all sorts of different opinions, some that sort of contradict each other. I love the look of a setter and had considered one but seems like this particular breed (breeds?) of dog has more confusion or controversy than most others, especially "out here" on the internet. They are beautiful dogs though!

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Re: my $.02 on this thread...

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:18 am

4ShotB wrote:...it is just plain confusing as I talk to people or read about dogs I get all sorts of different opinions, some that sort of contradict each other.
The setter world is actually pretty simple to understand, once you as an individual decide what type of setter you would like. I am SURE some will rip my "simplicity", but here goes...Here are some VERY GENERAL thoughts on the lines...

FT (high powered/high style/class)
Sunrise, Tomoka, Hytest, Jetsetter, Hick's Rising Sun, Tekoa Mountain, See Johnny Run, Hamilton's Blue Diamond, Long Gone, Grouse Ridge, First Rate, Pine Cone and MANY, MANY others

Gundog/Bench - Many of the above FT lines are outstanding gundogs too
Ryman, Lewellin, DeCoverly

I personally would not look at those more methodical working gundogs due to the fact that I want something with more power and style. Again, JMO...let the punches fly...

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Re: my $.02 on this thread...

Post by solon » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:57 am

4ShotB wrote:which will add little or no value to the discussion :D ...but as I continue to do research towards getting my first dog...it is just plain confusing as I talk to people or read about dogs I get all sorts of different opinions, some that sort of contradict each other. I love the look of a setter and had considered one but seems like this particular breed (breeds?) of dog has more confusion or controversy than most others, especially "out here" on the internet. They are beautiful dogs though!
If you want advice on what to get for your first hunting dog, then you need to say where you live, what game you will hunt, what wild birds are available, what training grounds are available, what mentors might be available to help you, and then finally what you like in a dog as far as size and appearance, pointer or flusher. These all factor in and more. Start a new thread on this topic.

As a first timer, I would look for a breed and breeding that produces dogs that train early and if a pointing dog, have lots of pointing instinct. If the pup is likely to point early and get staunch early and naturally, back instinctually, and have a cooperative temperament, your training job is made much easier. Of course you want to research the health aspects of the breed/line. My opinion is that the major pointing breeds: pointer, setter, and GSP and Pudelpointer in the versatiles, will give you the most options in the pointing category. This assumes that you stay completely away from any show breeding and that the line has some proven performance characteristics, whether by trials, hunt tests, or actual hunting and where you get to observe one or both parents in the field. With pointers and setters, you can get some hot blood that might be hard for a first timer to deal with, so I would look for coverdog breeding in those breeds. The more classic type English Setters can give you a serviceable gun dog in a larger package, maybe they won't progress as quickly, but if from proven hunting lines they can be quite suitable. They certainly have their fans as you can see on these boards. The Red Setters now have a reputation for being very good bird dogs, although I think that since the Red Setter folks, at least until recently, solely trialed their dogs in horseback trials, they might be a bit too much dog for an inexperienced bird dog trainer. The Gordon Setters have more limited choices for field bred lines, but they are available. All the setter breeds have similar controversies because the breeds have split into show and field strains, and in some cases some in between types. A general rule is get the type/breed of dog that is used to hunt the game you expect to hunt in the terrain you expect to be hunting.

I know these are generalizations, but I think they are fair ones. Define for yourself what you would like to have in your gun dog, go look at some examples to make your choice an informed one, then research the breeders and pick one or two that you can trust to work with you and get you the dog you want. A started dog is a more sure route to what you would like and often they are of very good value, if they were properly socialized as pups.

Solon

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Winchey » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:23 am

Solon you are supposed to be an SM breeder. Just say the SM is perfect for everyone.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:42 am

Pinebrookkennel,
As you can see you will need to do your home work when it comes to the purchase of an ES dog, I come from the old school that believes in
ES standards and Grouse hunting, although I have owned ES dogs from many different breed lines thu the years. I like the dual type ES dogs best, other FT type people are the other way around, I do suggest you hunt behind the different kinds of ES dogs, and then make your purchase. At any rate make sure that the breeder you choose to purchase from, has either Pen Hip tested or OFA tested his breed line. Certain lines of Setters have HD problems, avoid them if you can. Prior to purchasing a pup make the breeder produce the HD testing history on the stud and dam that are producing the pup you are purchasing, don't take the chance of purchasing from a non tested line, which ever type ES dog you happen to pick.

RGD/Dave

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Re: Info on setters

Post by cody » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:19 pm


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Re: Info on setters

Post by pinebrookkennel » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:56 pm

Ok !!
Lets narrow this down a little bit!
1St I'm looking for a family pet
2nd my wife fell in love with the dog on the back of pointing dog journal White w/red ears
3rd I will not show this dog
4th feild trial ?
5th my style of hunting 10% grouse 90% wild phez.
6th I like a taller longer stride dog for the tall summer grass we hunt.
7th o yea good nose too I almost forgot that one. ha ha ha
8th birds wiil be quail w/ launchers and we have crp for training grounds on our farm.

I hope this will narrow the discussion down a little. Sorry about the general question in the beginning.

Thanks for all the info
jered
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Re: Info on setters

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:08 pm

Jered,
Not sure which Setter was on the back of PDJ but if you want a long legged dog you are usually talking about a Ryman, maybe an Orange Belton
might suit your wife, they are beautiful dogs and depending on where you get one have great noses and lots of point.
RGD/Dave

Did the dog look something like this dog playing in the picture, or the Ryman dogs Bill is sitting with by the Explorer.



Image


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Re: Info on setters

Post by Grouse Dog Guy » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:27 pm

If your going to hunt early season when it's hot you need to look at setters that can take the heat. The big heavy setters aren't known for being very heat tolerant. I know of several litters coming in Jan in OH and Pa that should be outstanding and very heat tolerant if your interested drop me a PM and I will get you the information.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:31 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:...if you want a long legged dog you are usually talking about a Ryman, maybe an Orange Belton might suit your wife,
"Usually" may be correct, but there are a TON of setters out there with legs that are put together very well. Key is to get one that is put together well...not lanky, bad stride, etc. Here are a few links to picts of nice setters that are put together VERY well (sorry NOT Rymans).

http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ... 34399.html Garry just won with one
http://www.grousefeatherkennel.com/html/studDogs.htm Allen campaigns a few
http://www.skydancekennels.com/images/s ... Ret1aa.jpg Bull is a machine
http://www.northwoodsbirddogs.com/studdogs.shtml Jerry has a couple
http://firesidesetters.com/fireside_kennels_i_012.htm Mary Beth has some beautiful dogs

And this is only a SMALL example. My point is (and I think Ryman explained it well a few posts above) do not get blinded by one option. The only opinion I personally have (as stated above too) is that I feel you have more to choose from in the FT world...FWIW

Good point about the heat too. Just because a dog is whelped in the south does not mean it is a given to handle heat.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by Grange » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:13 pm

PntrRookie wrote: http://www.grousefeatherkennel.com/html/studDogs.htm Allen campaigns a few
I was thinking about this kennel. I haven't seen his dogs, but some of the people I know that have said his dogs are on the larger side. Well at least compared to some of the cover dog setters.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:33 pm

Grange wrote:some of the people I know that have said his dogs are on the larger side. Well at least compared to some of the cover dog setters.
That probably would be correct. Dr. Dunbar (vet doc) has a breeding program he sticks to for the horseback circuit. Yes the dogs he keeps, for his breeding program - and campaigning - are not the pocket rocket coverdog setters., but VERY successful on other circuits.

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Re: Info on setters

Post by dudleysmith » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:44 pm

Brian Sullivan breeds some of the best setters in the country but no one ever mentions him. take a look at a pedigree of 2 and you will see Pinekone in about everyone somewhere...

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Re: Info on setters

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:07 pm

Dudley, you are right. I posted that line on page two of this thread. Just spelled it wrong (Pine Cone :) ). He had a very unfortunate fire this fall at his kennel and lost just about all his dogs,

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Re: Info on setters

Post by fetters_setters » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:35 pm

by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:06 pm

Solon,
Fetters is no kind of authority on Ryman or DeCoverly in fact he for his own reasons, goes out of his way to put out misinformation.
I have seen his sight and his info is historically incorrect, gathered from questionable sourses, which he uses to propigate his own business.
You can believe Fetter or Ryman, take your pick, down thru history lots of other men, have tried to malign George Ryman & his business
this Fetter, is just the latest in a long line of small time breeders trying to make a name for himself.

RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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<The most offensive slam was removed from this by Greg>

Regards, RGD, Dave, Beaner, Beano or whatever name you're known by these days. I don't have time for forums. However friends and clients have sent me numerous "quotes" made by you on various forums across the internet over a period of time

However after receiving news of this current forum and topic in which you make the above statements about me personally, figured it was appropriate that I personally address you right back there, if you get my drift.

First, I want to congratulate you for your soon-to-be appearance on my blogspot (along with a few other worthy prize-winners) here: http://fetters-setters-people-say-anyth ... gspot.com/ -- talk about "small time breeders" trying to "propigate" (sp?) their own business! You know, Dave/RGD/Beaner/Beano: shoe, foot. fit, don't be afraid to wear it.

I must say that I am happy to find that several of the posters here found my blogspot to be of some interest. It is always gratifying to know my work (along with my wife's hard work) is being read and appreciated. However even though, RGD/Dave/Beaner/Beano, you claim to have been all over my "sight" (sp?), you have apparently missed all the FACTUAL DOCUMENTATION on which all of my articles and other information is based.

I guess my question here is, just where are the all the "sourses" (sp?) for all the BS you've been posting all over the internet?

Unlike a lot of breeders, you included, I do not advertise my dogs for sale anywhere, nor do I find the need to troll hunting forums to try to promote them. My clients currently patiently wait years to get one of my dogs and I have all the business I need, thank you very much.

From what I have been sent by friends -- including some rather bizarre posts and claims made by you on various forums -- it seems you claim to have known everyone: Ryman, Light, Evans, just to name several. And from what I have seen here personally, you claim to also be one of the best with some of the best dogs. So here's another little heads-up about my blogspot for you:

The Fetters Challenge: http://fetters-setters-testimonials.blogspot.com/ will soon be updated to include a $2500 stake -- to be paid by the loser and donated to the charity of the winner's choice. The original challenge was posted on March 13th, 2010, and there have been no takers as of yet.

So why don't you put your money where your mouth -- or forum typing fingers -- is/are, RGD/Dave/Beaner/Beano? Bring your best and if you win, then you finally will have some credible claims to make on all these forums you've made yourself such a presence on. Oh, and by the way, the Fetters Challenge will be filmed and will be made freely available on the internet for anyone who cares to view it -- if I ever get a bona fide challenger.

In the meantime, here's something that might help you out a little in the telling of all those tall tales you're so fond of posting: http://dictionary.reference.com/

And in the future, if you have any other BS you want to spout off about me or my blogspot, I strongly suggest you take it up with me personally.

P.S. Why do you use "Ryman Gun Dog" as all your forum user names? There hasn't been a true Ryman Gun Dog since 1955, so just who are you trying to impress?

John Fetters

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~~ English Setters are a Lifestyle, not a business.

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solon
Rank: Senior Hunter
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Location: SW Vermont

Re: Info on setters

Post by solon » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:55 am

Well said Mr. Fetters. I am a cover dog setter man myself, but your web site and breeding program looks very good to me. I edited my previous version here, as I confused Fetters Setters with Good Go ing, who used outcrosses to field trial dogs in their line. I think you aim for the right size though. I would like to do your challenge just for a good week of hunting, but alas, my setters are not Ryman.
I don't know whether Beans is out for self promotion or not and whether his web postings actually work for that, but he does have a bird dog business himself as you point out.

Solon
Last edited by solon on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PntrRookie
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Re: Info on setters

Post by PntrRookie » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:53 am

Ditto...well said Fetters

Mountaineer
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Re: Info on setters

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:02 am

Triple Ditto.

cody
Rank: Senior Hunter
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Location: Idaho

Re: Info on setters

Post by cody » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:06 am

Holy cow!

there is no place for "factual documentation" and "sources" on a internet board is there? :wink:

I guess the ball is in your court Ryman

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Info on setters

Post by Greg Jennings » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:10 am

I hope this won't degenerate into something that requires a heavy hand. There are already things that I've had to edit.

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Greg Jennings
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Re: Info on setters

Post by Greg Jennings » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:15 am

fetters_setters wrote:The Fetters Challenge: http://fetters-setters-testimonials.blogspot.com/ will soon be updated to include a $2500 stake -- to be paid by the loser and donated to the charity of the winner's choice. The original challenge was posted on March 13th, 2010, and there have been no takers as of yet.John Fetters
This kind of thing is why I think trials are so important. They prove dogs in head-to-head competition in an open, time-proven format.

Greg J

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pinebrookkennel
Rank: Senior Hunter
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Location: Nw ohio

Re: Info on setters

Post by pinebrookkennel » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:05 pm

Wow.
Three pages and I fell I don't know any more than I did before.
Walking hunting blood lines,white, tall with good temperament .
Please give me a blood line or kennel to research.
thanks in advance
p.s. sorry about sloppy post trying this on my phone!
Make no distinction between practice and combat !
Miyamoto Musashi.
Knowledge, once gained can never be stolen or repossessed.
Jered

Mountaineer
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Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Info on setters

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:18 pm

Needlepoint Setters
Evans City, PA


But there are many options.

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solon
Rank: Senior Hunter
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Location: SW Vermont

Re: Info on setters

Post by solon » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:25 pm

pinebrookkennel wrote:Ok !!
Lets narrow this down a little bit!
1St I'm looking for a family pet
2nd my wife fell in love with the dog on the back of pointing dog journal White w/red ears
3rd I will not show this dog
4th feild trial ?
5th my style of hunting 10% grouse 90% wild phez.
6th I like a taller longer stride dog for the tall summer grass we hunt.
7th o yea good nose too I almost forgot that one. ha ha ha
8th birds wiil be quail w/ launchers and we have crp for training grounds on our farm.

I hope this will narrow the discussion down a little. Sorry about the general question in the beginning.

Thanks for all the info
jered
Most any setter should have a good temperament, although that is something to confirm with the breeder re parents. If you think you will trial, then you need to get a pup or started dog from trial lines. Rymans, OH, etc do not do trials, because they couldn't win. You say you have experience with many types of ES, so I don't think you really need this board for advice.

There are plenty of good trial bred setter breeders in your area, if you include WI and MI. You want a bigger field setter, then a male in the 50 to 55 lb range should be plenty. I don't have the time nor is it necessary to list all the breeders that I am familiar with, but here are a few:
Berg Brothers, see Setters Unlimited on the web
Fireside in WI Mary Beth Esser and Brian Lengling.
TerHaar, also with Setters Unlimited

Got to go hunting.

Good luck.
Solon

Grouse Dog Guy
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Re: Info on setters

Post by Grouse Dog Guy » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:58 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
fetters_setters wrote:The Fetters Challenge: http://fetters-setters-testimonials.blogspot.com/ will soon be updated to include a $2500 stake -- to be paid by the loser and donated to the charity of the winner's choice. The original challenge was posted on March 13th, 2010, and there have been no takers as of yet.John Fetters
This kind of thing is why I think trials are so important. They prove dogs in head-to-head competition in an open, time-proven format.

Greg J

I agree but it won't eliminates the hearsay, BS and out right lies. The frauds like you know who need to be called out.

Truthseeker
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Re: Info on setters

Post by Truthseeker » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:00 am

i like havelock setters

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