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Quartering

Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:16 am

I know many guys on this forum do not want their dogs to quarter. They prefer their dogs to hunt objectives. I also know many guys have dogs that hunt on horseback, and then hunt close in thick CRP when on foot. My question is if a dog shortens up in thick cover, as a good dog should, and they are not quartering, what are they doing? They aren't hunting in a forward motion, and staying close. That would be impossible. A dog would get to 50-75 yards in 5 seconds. If they aren't quartering in the thick cover, how do they hunt? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just curious, as I have never understood this.
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Re: Quartering

Postby BigShooter » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:31 am

When hitting thick cover my dogs search for scent. I try to hunt upwind or cross wind. The dogs generally will work cross wind, back & forth until they catch scent. Depending upon the quality of the scent they will either continue a natural widshield wiper pattern (with poor scent) or they may then move more upwind in a more forward type of movement. The quartering they do is natural & learned by hunting wild birds. It's personal preference but I prefer a dog that doesn't require quartering training or human intervention to cover a field appropriately.

The less quality scent in the cover the more the dog will naturally range to seek scent and birds. Also if they are not finding quality scent they quickly scan & move toward objectives that based upon experience, look good to them.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:43 am

Birddogz,
Shooter is correct, my Grouse dogs work scent, and go directly to the bird. In fact if my Grouse dog is quartering and is always out in front of me
he is not following the hotest scent. Grouse actually forage for food in large circles in the woods, similar to how a bear forages, the circles touch each other and form figure 8's, going in many different directions. So if you want to shoot more Grouse you let the dog hunt the hotest scent, which most times will drive the dog in some type of a circle or figure 8.
If you want the dog up front, quartering such as a Texas Quail dog does, you cut your Grouse shooting in about half.
Different dogs for different jobs.

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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:36 pm

BigShooter wrote:When hitting thick cover my dogs search for scent. I try to hunt upwind or cross wind. The dogs generally will work cross wind, back & forth until they catch scent. Depending upon the quality of the scent they will either continue a natural widshield wiper pattern (with poor scent) or they may then move more upwind in a more forward type of movement. The quartering they do is natural & learned by hunting wild birds. It's personal preference but I prefer a dog that doesn't require quartering training or human intervention to cover a field appropriately.

The less quality scent in the cover the more the dog will naturally range to seek scent and birds. Also if they are not finding quality scent they quickly scan & move toward objectives that based upon experience, look good to them.



That makes sense. That is what my dogs do as well, I just wondered about that. My dogs hunt like a wind shield wiper in cattails until they hit scent. Then they go to it. Just got back from hunting. 2 guys 6 roosters in an hour. Every one was over a point. I literally had to kick around and almost step on them to get them to fly. Great day! My buddy took me to his honey hole. :wink: Gotta love local knowledge. :D
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Re: Quartering

Postby BigShooter » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:04 pm

I'm jealous. I really wanted to go back this weekend with the good weather conditions but staying home with family & installing a replacement water heater for my son took precedence. Being handy means there's lots of opportunities to help out & teach the kids how to do things for themselves.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Wyndancer » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:26 am

BigShooter wrote: Being handy means.........


The women don't have to find ya handsome.....it's a Red Green thing. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Wyndancer on Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quartering

Postby mrcreole » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:01 am

Wyndancer, Congrats on the Gun Dog magazine feature. Nice to see a board member in one of the mags.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Wyndancer » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:52 am

Thanks, we would have liked the article to be more positive....... and maybe that comes through after the intro paragraph. The breed really suffers, respect from the hunters, from a heavy emphasis on conformation showing....and thoughts from many people involved with the breed about not making it more popular.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:31 pm

WynDancer,
Not sure what you mean by the breed really suffers, respect from the hunters, Please explain, the Gordons I am familiar with here and in Scotland
are Grouse hunting dogs and well respected by the hunters who own them.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Wyndancer » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:16 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:WynDancer,
Not sure what you mean by the breed really suffers, respect from the hunters, Please explain, the Gordons I am familiar with here and in Scotland
are Grouse hunting dogs and well respected by the hunters who own them.
RGD/Dave


Sure.

The breed suffers the effects of breeding solely to win in the show ring. Those breeders, that specialize in show dogs, will place what they deem a non-show prospect into a pet/hunting home. Some of those lines of dogs haven't seen a bird for generations. Then the unsuspecting buyer brings home a dog of those lines expecting it to become a serviceable gun dog. When it doesn't happen, do you think the buyer condemns the breeder? or the breed?

So far it appears the breed takes the hit.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:46 pm

That is why I like the VDD system. There are only hunting dogs. Less confusing. What would be really neat is if there were breed wardens in the U.S. Not that you couldn't breed any dog you wanted, it would just not be registered as a "hunting bred dog." Only allow dogs that have been successful in NAVHDA, NSTRA, etc. to breed. Allow someone who is interested in hunting to know whether they are getting a hunting dog or a show dog. A dog could be both, but the stud and bitch must be winning in some form of hunting tests.
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Re: Quartering

Postby ezzy333 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:10 pm

Birddogz wrote:That is why I like the VDD system. There are only hunting dogs. Less confusing. What would be really neat is if there were breed wardens in the U.S. Not that you couldn't breed any dog you wanted, it would just not be registered as a "hunting bred dog." Only allow dogs that have been successful in NAVHDA, NSTRA, etc. to breed. Allow someone who is interested in hunting to know whether they are getting a hunting dog or a show dog. A dog could be both, but the stud and bitch must be winning in some form of hunting tests.



So our hunting dogs couldn't be bred as hunting dogs because we never trialed them. Think I would rather it be a matter of breeder choice but maybe we could do more to convince the breeders what should be bred for, such as within standard and a desire to find birds.

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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:54 pm

I'm just saying that it would do away with a TON of problems that suddenly popular breeds get into. I would have no trouble buying the winingest dog in Navhda stud with the winingest bitch out of NSTRA. I would gladly give up my freedoms for a more organized breeding system. It would give you a lot of options in that, you could pick all the different venues, from HB trials to NAVHDA.
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Re: Quartering

Postby hustonmc » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:07 pm

Birddogz wrote: I would have no trouble buying the winingest dog in Navhda stud with the winingest bitch out of NSTRA.


Winningest bitch in NSTRA............we'll then you'd end up back into the pointer conversation with a pup out of 24x CH Ranger's Barshoe Angel. But we've allready beat that horse to death.
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Re: Quartering

Postby birddog1968 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:09 pm

Germany calling.....

Leave my dogs of choice out of your equation. Im happy with my AA , foot hunting, nstra dogs.......all wrapped into one and smart enough to play all games including NAVDHA if one is so inclined to put that much training on a pointer.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:47 am

You are not understanding me. I'm saying they can compete in any dog venue they want. AA, NAVHDA, NASTRA, Cover trials, etc., the only stipulation would be both dogs would have to be successful in some bird dog venue before breeding. Conformation should also be considered. If only elite dogs are allowed to breed, the breed would be in better shape than ever.
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Re: Quartering

Postby dudleysmith » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:04 am

Birddogz wrote:You are not understanding me. I'm saying they can compete in any dog venue they want. AA, NAVHDA, NASTRA, Cover trials, etc., the only stipulation would be both dogs would have to be successful in some bird dog venue before breeding. Conformation should also be considered. If only elite dogs are allowed to breed, the breed would be in better shape than ever.



this is about the silliest thing i have saw posted, producers don't always preform and preformers don't always produce.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Greg Jennings » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:36 am

The good breedings are there for those that are willing to do their research and apply common sense. No one is forcing anyone to buy from any particular breeding.

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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:14 am

Who has more consistent dogs for the purposes of hunting, DDs or Irish Setters? Why? My idea would eliminate dogs being bred for show, without it being understood that that is what they are bred for. It would allow competition to bring the cream to the top. It wouldn't eliminate anyone from breeding, their litters just wouldn't be certified. I actually think that this wouldn't be very difficult to do. Certain dogs are selected to breed and receive the "stamp" of elite bird dogs. Not saying that others wouldn't continue to breed without the approval, but a person that isn't well studied in bird dog games could rest assured they were getting a quality hunting dog with that "stamp" of approval from a bird dog board. No more AKC registered dogs that should never have been bred. It happens ALL the time, and it isn't a good thing.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Greg Jennings » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:29 am

It is already known when the dogs are bred for show, NAVHDA or whatever. You just have to do some research and apply common sense. It's all about control versus individual responsibility.

Competition/testing already notes dogs' field achievements. Note that it does NOT indicate if they are a producer or not. There have been many great producers, particularly dams, that have not had field titles.

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Re: Quartering

Postby dudleysmith » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:33 am

One mans trash is another's treasure..
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Re: Quartering

Postby Wagonmaster » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:59 am

People who focus on quartering by pointing dogs have not hunted many places. Quartering works in heavy consistent cover, such as grass CRP. A dog quartering in the barren wheat stubble of western Alberta looks pretty silly and produces nothing, because the birds are up ahead, in that dry slough a half mile away. I can make both my dogs quarter, including the AA, if the situation calls for it. Much of the time, it does not.

The authoritarian breed warden system works well in Germany I guess. Maybe they like authoritarianism, I don't know, but it would not work well here. In the past, it has worked some radical "designed by genetisist" changes in the German breeds, the near elimination of white and black in the GSP being examples. The breed is better off without it.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:11 am

I hunt sharptails and huns early in the year. My dogs hunt objectives then. After that it is pheasants for 84 days in chick CRP and cattail sloughs. My dogs quarter then. I have been told many times that a pointing dog shouldn't quarter, and never understood why.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Greg Jennings » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:16 am

A lot of time, the quartering vs objectives argument is the people arguing not asking questions of each other and setting context before they start the argument.

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Re: Quartering

Postby BigShooter » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:50 am

Greg Jennings wrote:A lot of time, the quartering vs objectives argument is the people arguing not asking questions of each other and setting context before they start the argument.

Greg J.


Obfuscation. :lol:

Smart gun dogs with good noses seek birds, preferably by scent but also by sight when scent isn't encountered. Human's apply terms to what many dog's do naturally in seeking scent on the wind (moving back & forth across wind currents taking air samples) or with no scent in the vacinity, looking for and advancing to likely areas that may hold birds.

Once strong scent is encountered dogs turn to a more direct pursuit pattern.

Enough with the labels already. :roll:
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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:01 am

BigShooter wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:A lot of time, the quartering vs objectives argument is the people arguing not asking questions of each other and setting context before they start the argument.

Greg J.


Obfuscation. :lol:

Smart gun dogs with good noses seek birds, preferably by scent but also by sight when scent isn't encountered. Human's apply terms to what many dog's do naturally in seeking scent on the wind (moving back & forth across wind currents taking air samples) or with no scent in the vacinity, looking for and advancing to likely areas that may hold birds.

Once strong scent is encountered dogs turn to a more direct pursuit pattern.

Enough with the labels already. :roll:



I completely agree. I have been called out many times because I say my dogs hunt like wind shield wipers in thick cover. I could never understand why that was a bad thing. Obviously when they hit scent, they go to it.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Neil » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:37 am

Birddogz wrote: I have been called out many times because I say my dogs hunt like wind shield wipers in thick cover. I could never understand why that was a bad thing.


If it pleases you it is not a bad thing at all.

And I am not calling you out, but even my Boykins do not hunt in a wind shield wiper fashion, were they to, the would be up wind about half the time. There is always objectives, places in even the thickest, most homogenous of cover that are more likely to hold birds, unless they are in transition.

My dogs will move back in forth in front of me, but will use the wind so as to not go nearly as far one way as the other, with pointing dogs, it is even more pronounced, they seem to learn the distance of their scenting ability and use it to their advantage so as to not have to cover non-productive ground.

With the flushers I find myself down in the thick stuff with them, steering them some, with the pointing dogs, I stay on the edge and wait for them to find birds.

All dogs miss birds, but I do not think a non-quartering dog misses anymore than those that quarter, the quarterer just gets tireder with less results. Quartering is not natural, dogs must be trained to do it, and will often lapse. Other wild canine predators do not quarter, were they to, they would starve. Watch a fox hunt and ask yourself why they do it the way they do.

But if you dog pleases you, then it does not matter what I think,

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Re: Quartering

Postby JKP » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:52 am

Having lived in Europe for 11 years, I have had the chance to hear different perspectives on dogs, search patterns and the conditions that contribute to those preferences. The few Euro-trial dogs that I have seen in operate at high speed 2-300 yds to the front in a very controlled windshield washer pattern. These are walking brace trials that are often conducted in beet fields, low grass cover, without a great deal of structure. These dogs are looking for huns, pheasant or hare that could be anywhere in a 500 acre field of like cover. (An aside...these dogs are really a hoot to watch...they look like 300 yd NSTRA dogs...heck for leather....point and back...flush on command...sit on the flush...mark...and retreive to hand on command/signal....impressive). In actual hunting situations, a half dozen dogs may work at a closer range in front of a line of 10-20 guns...where a dog is expected to stay more or less in its "sector" ahead of the owner/handler. Just examples of how conditions and hunting style shape the dog.

We have bigger country...a German colleague that hunted in ND with a few of us DD "fanatics", was surprised at the immensity of the plains and understood quickly that our needs and style are different much of necessity. I would have nothing against a dog that quartered (big!) in like structure like topped CRP (sharpie cover) but when I get into the low rolling hills, I expect the dog to seek out the most likely cover...learned through experience.

A little "windy" just to say that I don't have anything against quartering which many would want not in a competition dog. But I think if given enough experience, any smart hunting dog will learn what it needs to do given the conditions. It would bother me more to have a dog that just ran a straight line in even cover rather than cover the area in a pattern search (noting the wind) of some kind. Sharpies can be anywhere in a section of low CRP...running in a line, whether down wind or not and leaving 2/3 of the section unsearched seems counterproductive.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Winchey » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:05 pm

I am not sure it would really help, some people produce good dogs and people who know dogs buy what they want, people who don't do there research sometimes get stuck with dogs they don't want. Dogs having to pass tests and trials in order to be bread would not help people who don't know what they are looking for and don't know what the titles meen. There are people who want pointing dogs who think my SM hunts to big and fast, they could very well go get themselves an AA horseback pointer CH and actually be better suited with a plodding spinone because thats what they aparently really want. However I do think dog breeding should be regulated. Strict licensing of kennels, health checks, high prices for dogs to make people think before they buy a dog they really can't take care of or don't want. I know this isn't fair to all the good breeders out there that care about their dogs and produce good ones, and are trying to make a living. Or to the people who know dogs and can get a good or great dog for a great price but that's just how I feel.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Chukar12 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:15 pm

Not saying that others wouldn't continue to breed without the approval, but a person that isn't well studied in bird dog games could rest assured they were getting a quality hunting dog with that "stamp" of approval from a bird dog board. No more AKC registered dogs that should never have been bred. It happens ALL the time, and it isn't a good thing.


I got a little dizzy trying following this thread, but feel compelled to get some clarification...how many hunters...(not a field trialer) purchased a puppy from a reputable breeder with titled dogs from the field trial world and not been happy with their dogs? Take note of the number of people who want a pet/companion first and a hunting dog when the mood strikes them. It isn't hard to have a hunting dog that pleases most people. There are any number of very nice folks who ask questions on here about how to fix this problem or that problem that has nothing to do with a dogs breeding...it is all about the exposure and training the dog gets.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:19 pm

I am just thinking that it may help keep hunting genetics clear of show genetics. It would help the people who are new to hunting, or just plain don't do the research. Idiot proof it. :D
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Re: Quartering

Postby Greg Jennings » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:27 pm

1. You understand that it's not going to happen, right? It's entirely hypothetical.

2. "Idiot Proof", I believe, comes with unintended consequences that I wouldn't want to live with. Analogy: Do you want to live in a completely safe society? I absolutely do not.

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Re: Quartering

Postby BigShooter » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:30 pm

I've talked a bit about this before. One could start a business to do all the research, maintain a database, send out quality surveys to owners, etc. At the end of the day there'd be the business's evaluation of various litters. A prospective buyer would have to pay for each report. However you'd have to prevent the reports from being circulated for free. Then, if the business was successful it would be targeted for litigation by those that didn't receive a superior ranking or make the "approved" list.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Chukar12 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:39 pm

...and how many of your customers would know the difference? There is not enough value in the masses to change the existing or to build a new model.
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Re: Quartering

Postby proudag08 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:56 pm

I'll put in my .02 as a perspective dog owner that Birddogz wants to "idiot proof"...

First thing I see is that because I am a newbie, I am considered an idiot. Which in all reality, and literal sense of the word, is correct. However, this idiot is doing his research much like a lot of other newbs and lurkers on this site. If I want a field trial dog, I know who to ask about getting one. I have learned how to read a pedigree to see for myself. I have researched bloodlines to see what I can find out about the field trial lines. I have researched whether or not you can even consider the modern dogs to be of a line due to the low COI. And on and on I could go. I have researched the show dogs as well.

I have become less of an idiot because of this forum. So, I say all that to say this. The more information you put out there the better. You don’t have to idiot proof the system, just idiot proof the idiots.

[quote="Chukar12]...Take note of the number of people who want a pet/companion first and a hunting dog when the mood strikes them. It isn't hard to have a hunting dog that pleases most people. There are any number of very nice folks who ask questions on here about how to fix this problem or that problem that has nothing to do with a dogs breeding...it is all about the exposure and training the dog gets.[/quote]

Personally, I agree with Chukar. I want a household pet, that hunts well, and will be something I love to look at. Because lets be honest, I'm not an avid gun dog man, but I am learning to be one. I was not raised around pointers or hunting dogs of any kind, but my kids might be. I don’t know how to train a dog to hunt, but I'm going to learn and will be better at it for my next dog.

My point is that some people are not black and white on a pup (show or hunt). Some people want both. Some people want the challenge of training a mediocre bred dog to be a great dog! I think instead of making regulation on what dogs can be bred, make regulations on the information the breeder has to give the buyers about the dogs. Maybe that will help... but then again, I'm just an "idiot"... what do I know?
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Re: Quartering

Postby JKP » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:04 pm

No competition/test score or title gives all the info you need to make a selection of any dog. We all still need to do some homework about important issues as to "style" of dog, temperament and the liveability/trainability issues. Even in the Euro systems, all the published data over the decades tells you about the results...not how you got there...nor what it was like to live/hunt with a dog under real conditions.
I get a little hot under the collar when someone suggests "stock reports" for dogs. I think buyers need to do a little homework...those that don't cause me to wonder. There are so many good dogs from so many sources today, it is hard to believe that folks can still get snookered...probably the folks that don't have a clue in the first place...and are just out buying a dishwasher.

We produce far more good pups than there are good hands to train them...that's the real concern. The other is the frustration of watching great young dogs disappear into the backwoods or never reach their potential because of owner failings. I remind myself, though, that i too once had a 60/hr week job, the lawn to mow, little league to coach, etc. I guess as long as a dog is well cared for, the rest has to be seen as gravy.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Chukar12 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:16 pm

We produce far more good pups than there are good hands to train them...that's the real concern.


I really believe that is the issue. It isnt rocket science but it is a committment to do it right and too few are patient or passionate enough to do what Proudag has described. I am convinced that the lion's share of a true "Average Joe's" hunting dog success comes from the work after conception than before.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Winchey » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:36 pm

We also produce a lot of crappy dogs. What I would really like to see is an enforceable minimum standard for breeding. That being, a good temperment, sire and dam non aggressive to man and other dogs. And also healthy, which is tough to define. I run into people on a regular basis who ask if my SPCA Golden Retriever mutt who is 2 or 3 inches over the maximum breed standard, has an underbite, has bilateral hip dysplasia, and is neutered if he is pure bred because they have a female that they want to breed once before they have her spade. I see two acceptable camps of dog breeders, one who is trying to improve the breed and one who is at the very least producing healthy nice dogs. I just don't like the thought of heavy regulating the sporting dog world because I don't like the idea of standards sometimes. An example is the DD and GSP debate. People have different hunting styles and sometimes they think they want something they really don't and that is impossible to change.
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Re: Quartering

Postby ezzy333 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:03 pm

What I would really like to see is an enforceable minimum standard for breeding.


Whose standard are you willing to live with? That is the question. We have standards now that many breeders do not follow because they aren't what the breeder thinks is important. And he may be right. I have hunting dogs that get shown if they are good enough, get trialed if they are good enough, but do get hunted because that is what they are bred for and are good enough. But even then the way they hunt isn't always to someone else's taste. But most importantly they all are good enough for someone and that means they are good enough to be bred without someone else making that decision for me. Rigid rules are always in place where someone thinks they know more than the other people. Otherwise there is no need for the rules. Standards are in place to give everyone a guideline of how the breed should look and perform. But since offspring seldom are identical to the parents it is rather restricting to have someone tell you what a dog will produce.

Everything we know today gives you a guideline to how a dog will look, perform, and possibly produce and all of the wardens in the world will not do the job much better than you can if you use the info available.

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Re: Quartering

Postby Chukar12 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:15 pm

Winchey,

Where do you find the crappy bred dogs? I honestly don't mean to be argumentative but I am curious as to where people are finding dogs that don't fit their needs? ..and again I mean somewhere on the companion to hunting scale, not those who are trying to compete. There is no enforcement that will stop poor back yard or poor professional breeding for that matter. If you follow legislative current events related to dogs and breeding you will find a push by a number of local governments to curtail dog breeding in general, and it isn't working. Like most over regulation it creates a strain on the legitimate and dillutes the product through limited selection or inflated cost structure. (see Big Shooter's analogy above) Involvement and information are the only sustainable guidelines. If you have ever been to a trial and walked up to an officer or club represenative and not received a warm welcome it would shock me. People who put their time and effort into these venues are not after fortune and glory...they are geeky about dogs...and always happy to drag others into their abyss.

I am fascinated by suggestions for improvement about breeding, or trial venues et al, because I have yet to find a post where someone says, " I have had four bird dogs in my life and my pappy a dozen before me and Thank God they only live 10 or 12 years cuz we couldn't wait to seeem go."
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Re: Quartering

Postby BigShooter » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:25 pm

Neil wrote:
And I am not calling you out, but even my Boykins do not hunt in a wind shield wiper fashion, were they to, the would be up wind about half the time. There is always objectives, places in even the thickest, most homogenous of cover that are more likely to hold birds, unless they are in transition.

My dogs will move back in forth in front of me, but will use the wind so as to not go nearly as far one way as the other, with pointing dogs, it is even more pronounced, they seem to learn the distance of their scenting ability and use it to their advantage so as to not have to cover non-productive ground.

Neil


Neil,

I'm not quite catching the difference between your "dogs moving back & forth in front of you" & yet they don't go "side to side like wind shield wipers as that would cause them to follow scent upwind" nor are they quartering, defined as "covering an area by moving from side to side". I do not understand why you think moving across wind from one side to another to catch scent is not a natural movement. I think this is just a matter of semantics and we are using different definitions for some terms. Perhaps you would take another stab at clarifying what you mean to say.
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Re: Quartering

Postby JKP » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:38 pm

all of the wardens in the world will not do the job much better than you can if you use the info available.


This is an obvious reference to the Euro registries...and every time this comes up, I have to put the record straight. The breed warden doesn't tell me what dog I can breed to. I agree as a member and breeder that dogs should earn breeding approval...but out of all the dogs that have breeding approval, I am free to pick the dog I want. I can't speak to other Euro clubs, but in the VDD the freedom of the breeder is a very important concept.

I find the best aspect of a "breeding" organization that agrees on priorities is that you get folks working in the same direction. The AKC has been unsuccessful with many sporting breeds...splitting them into "activity groups" rather than focused on purpose and performance.

I was in GWPs years ago...and there are some very good ones...but I found the genepool and commitment to the working versatile dog in the VDD was 100%...whereas it was only a small faction within the AKC dogs. There are "+'s" and "-'s" in every system but folks working together is a huge advantage.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Winchey » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:00 pm

I wasn't reffering to sporting dogs. I have met very few sporting dogs that were bred to hunt that wouldn't atleast hunt a bit. I was more ranting about dog breeding in general, including backyard and puppymills. I am not a breeder, and I don't claim to know a whole lot about it. My problem is people that have even less knowledge about it than me and still breed. I just don't think it is something you should do unless you have a certain understanding of it, and I find it unethical to partake in it if you don't.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Chukar12 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:20 pm

Winchey...I get you now, and I agree. I have always agreed with the axiom that you cannot regulate common sense. This is where the involvement in the current "dog organizations" comes in. It is venues like this that become self policing; peer pressure and competition are much better deterrents than the "word of law" that isn't really a law at all. They have their downside, even self governed organizations can and do become politically charged, there are well meaning busy bodies and fussers, there are tempermental losers, even an occasional loud obnoxious drunk ... but those involved in AF, AKC breed clubs, NAVHDA, NSTRA, BDC, etc... are as a group committed dog people and their common purpose helps shape the field side of the sporting dog world.
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Re: Quartering

Postby JKP » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:43 pm

I will make no secret of my dislike for the AKC...not because there is inherently anything wrong with the concept...but because the breed clubs have no autonomy or right to impose breeding practices, performance minimums or breeding practice. The AKC is NOT about the breed...it is about activities for people. In essence, the clubs give up that right so that the AKC has an unrestricted pool from which to generate fees. I think with the recent admittance of crossbreeds to AKC registration, they have signaled a pending financial crisis and a rocky road ahead.

I admire the single minded, well defined priorities that you find in the Pointer, large pack Beagle and the Euro clubs. They will not appeal to everyone. The priorities are clearly defined, and there is an expectation of performance with everyone staying pretty much "on the reservation" with no straying into the lands of show dogs and agility/rally euphoria. You want to have a real hoot...go see some AKC Beagle brace trials and then go see some UKC large pack or SPO trials. The difference is mind boggling...the AKC dogs would have trouble circling a rabbit in the living room...the large pack dogs will push a hare for hours in 1/2 mile circles. Standards, high expectations and folks working together makes better dogs.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Chukar12 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:48 pm

JKP, I do not think you are on an island with AKC. Sometimes things get so big and hungry they consume themselves...
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Re: Quartering

Postby Neil » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:32 pm

Mark,

I do not know about the wind shield wipers on your car, but mine go the same distance in each swipe, in a steady uninterupted manner.

My dogs will stay in front of me, but they do not go side to side in a measured method, they use the wind, often streaking ahead to an objective not recognized as such by me, and it does not take them long to go through even the thickest of cover. They are looking for birds, not trying to leave every bit of ground undisturbed. It is not semantics, my dogs do not quarter, not even the Boykins, the dogs that do seem very unnatural, contrived even.

My point is simple, if a dog is quartering like a wind shield wiper, he is wasting half his time, he is not using the wind or going to objectives. When using the wind, his movement to the side into the wind will be much less than the way back to gain the wind again.

Most often the pointing dogs will take a line on the edge with the wind blowing to them from cover, throw their heads up when hitting scent, and then bail off into the thick stuff to pin the birds. At least that is when they are doing it right.

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Re: Quartering

Postby BigShooter » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:03 pm

Neil,

We're on the same page. My observations coincide with yours. I used the term just once only to indicate back & forth movement to sample the wind to pick up scent under certain conditions, not to indicate a constant equal amount of movement in either direction.

It's a thing of beauty to watch a dog take an edge, sampling the wind from cover & charge off to point birds. The first time I witnessed that I was watching FC "Hans", Wagonmaster's first foray into amateur training. Although that was 37 years ago the memory is still vivid.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Birddogz » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:59 am

My dogs don't go the same exact distance for God's sake. They run left for a while, and then run right. Hunting for scent along the way. I can't imagine a dog that counts steps. My point is my dogs don't run in straight lines like I have seen many FT dogs do when they hit a fence row. My dogs will work an edge, and then come back and work the grass on the right and left.
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Re: Quartering

Postby Neil » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:39 am

BD,

I don't know if they count steps, but if you have ever been to a springer field trial you would better understanding quartering as they define it. A brace of springers will cover every yard or two of a 20 acre field.

And it was not me that first used the wind shield wiper analogy, check your posts.

The FT dogs only run in a straight line when the fence row (and the cover beyond it) is in a straight line, and it all depends on how good their noses are if it works or they go birdless.

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