Wild Pheasant Trials

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:22 pm

I dunno but I watched an EP this weekend pin a Grouse from about 30 feet, then another nailing his pigeons at like 60, and when I meen nailing they went 60 to 0 faster then I thought was physically possible. Like I have said before I have never hunted wild pheasants, and the fella who owned these dogs said that the dog working on the pigeons was 2 and didnt quite have the grouse figured out yet but has nailed a few and showed promise, I don't see how a covey of Phesants would even know he was in the neighbourhood. Also everything I watch on tv I see dogs that are not trial dogs and are very slow in comparrison, and not broke to the level of these dogs and that just makes me wonder about pheasant hunting. To be fair a lot of the grouse dogs i see on tv have more in common with my versatile then these trial dogs.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:27 pm

One thing I don't understand is why my thoughts on FTs bother people so much? I think they should run more on wild birds. That is just my opinion. If we don't agree, it is alright. It seems like some people's manhood hinges on whether a FT is a good evaluator of a dog, or if someone thinks FT dogs are better or meat dogs are better. This is discussion. Like at a local tavern. Shooting the breeze as they say. No need to get so angry. Just good fun, and conversation. We can agree to disagree.

I love giving shyt as much as the next guy, but why the personal stuff? It is just a conversation about dogs.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:29 pm

Winchey wrote:I dunno but I watched an EP this weekend pin a Grouse from about 30 feet, then another nailing his pigeons at like 60, and when I meen nailing they went 60 to 0 faster then I thought was physically possible. Like I have said before I have never hunted wild pheasants, and the fella who owned these dogs said that the dog working on the pigeons was 2 and didnt quite have the grouse figured out yet but has nailed a few and showed promise, I don't see how a covey of Phesants would even know he was in the neighbourhood. Also everything I watch on tv I see dogs that are not trial dogs and are very slow in comparrison, and not broke to the level of these dogs and that just makes me wonder about pheasant hunting. To be fair a lot of the grouse dogs i see on tv have more in common with my versatile then these trial dogs.

He pointed them from 30 feet. I don't know about pinning them. My Britt has pointed a covey of PCs from 60 yards. I'm sure they ran some, but it was a long way. The furthest I have seen. Not saying he has the greatest nose of any dog, just saying that dogs do that.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:30 pm

Birddogz wrote:
I have to see this infamous "pinning". it just takes one to get nervous and away they go. Give me a dog that is patient and cunning. They will stick them when they stop. They will half arc them and pinch them. A smart dog learns what they can do with the phez depending on the conditions. I am not saying I want a slow dog, but I don't want one running too crazy. A happy medium.

"Infamous"?

I don't think so, the ones I am talking about would become famous if you guys would just go watch them.

it just takes one to get nervous and away they go

The dog's job is to not to charge in there, but point them, don't care if it is one or a hundred.

We all think are dogs are a happy medium, or we would get different dogs.

I have seen dogs hunt just as you describe, it is obvious you have not seen a truly hard charger.

Neil

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:45 pm

I have seen many hard chargers. I enjoy watching them very much, just not on pheasant. PC, Sharpies, Huns, Quail, etc. In big grass it is alright. What I am saying is, the faster a dog is moving the more likely he is to out run his/her nose. All dogs do it now and again. If he out runs his nose and he is really rolling he is going to be further into the cover before he smells the birds. Late season phez are not forgiving, and will pile out of a slough. I have to say that lately they have been holding very well though. The moon must be right.

I just like a more cautious dog in a slough. In a big CRP field, let em go! The slough isn't that big, and the birds are often stuffed in a drift. Methodical with a medium pace is just nice in that situation. A smart dog will figure it out.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:54 pm

Birddogz wrote:The slough isn't that big, and the birds are often stuffed in a drift.

Sounds like the perfect place for my Boykins.

I don't need a pointing dog for small places, and if it is that small with that many birds, a non-slip retriever might even be better.

Point being there are many ways to hunt birds, all of them are right.

Neil

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:00 pm

Birddogz wrote:You mean to tell me there is no wild pheasant trial in the U.S.? SD harvests over a million birds. ND around 650,000, KS around 6-700,000, NE around 400,000. I'd say it isn't for lack of birds! Plus, I believe American sportsman spend more money pursuing wild pheasants, than any other bird. There HAS to be a wild pheasant trial.

Don't act so surprised since that is the same reaction you had when it was discussed before on here. As you should know there are some real problems running any trial on wild birds and one of the main ones is finding the grounds with enough acres and birds to be fair to all of the contestants. You can't run several braces on the same course and expect the last brace have the same chance as the first one of finding birds. Fairness is still a requirement when people are paying for the chance to compete.

Ezzy

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:05 pm

Last time I was talking about late season. Apparently, there are some wild bird trials on phez.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:23 pm

Birddogz wrote:Last time I was talking about late season. Apparently, there are some wild bird trials on phez.

I will let this pass but since you now know the correct answer we never have to listen to this discussion again. Hope you enjoy the trials.

Ezzy

Truthseeker · Post by **Truthseeker** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:27 pm

i have read in the american field of wild bird trials where the dogs are getting finds on pheasant and sharpies and huns (montana and idaho) or pheasant, huns, quail and chukar (robinson ranch). so anytime you want to give it a shot i am sure they would be more than happy to have you.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:32 pm

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:32 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Last time I was talking about late season. Apparently, there are some wild bird trials on phez.
I will let this pass but since you now know the correct answer we never have to listen to this discussion again. Hope you enjoy the trials.

Ezzy

You know, no one

forces people to post on a thread. You ever notice how these threads are far and away the most active. People must be interested in them enough to post.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:50 pm

i have read in the american field of wild bird trials where the dogs are getting finds on pheasant and sharpies and huns (montana and idaho) or pheasant, huns, quail and chukar (robinson ranch). so anytime you want to give it a shot i am sure they would be more than happy to have you.

True that! Robertson ranch actually. I ran a brace there once and had finds on 4 hen pheasants right off the breakaway (that the dog self relocated twice during the ride there and had 'em stuck when I swung off), a nice covey of huns along mid mountain, a pair of native chuks high up, then a dimwit planter chuk standing in the road...didn't quite get to the quail country or mighta had work on them too. My buddy won there once and had a find on a big cackling rooster (with his fargin' pointer!! WTH??) that she stood for a good 10" I'd bet, a find on a whole herd of cali's that were skedaddlin' thru the sage, then a couple planter chuks that lost their way and were headed down the road towards camp and safety!

Over my way at American Falls for the Idaho Open and the Reg. 9 ASD Ch. we'll usually have most our finds on sharpies but have a handful of finds on phez, huns and sage hens during the trial as well. My same buddy won there a few years ago with a crazy, deep in the muck, find on a dark, 'ol rooster (with a dang pointer no less! WTH??). In the Dakotas I saw dang close to 50/50 work on phez and sharpies/chickens (alot of those pheasant interestingly were out in the wide open prairie grass...planters?? I've heard the wild ones only live in the swamps back there)... The trials I've been to in Montana as well, mostly sharpies but usually a smattering of phez and huns...Trixie nailed some sage hens there once too. The only difference between what we were doing at all those trials and my hunting trips is packing live ammo.

Roosta bird:

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:08 am

Neil,

You absolutely right that pheasants were not native to this country and all were pen released at one time. It's recorded that Ben Franklin's nephew and George Washington had both attempted to start a pheasant population in this country but their releases never established. It wasn't until 1881 that Judge Denny, the US consul to China released a couple of dozen pair in the Williamette Valley of Oregon that the birds established a self breeding population.
Interestingly when I started hunting ruffed grouse in my home state of Indiana, there were local folk in our hills and hollers that still called the grouse it's colloquial name they'd known since pioneer days; "pheasant or wood's hen."

Just a couple of small corrections. There may be a Baldwinsville, PA but I think the pheasant trials you mentioned were and have been held in Baldwinsville, NY for quite some time. Wehle, Shear, Crangle were just a few of the well known bird doggers there.
Out of the past...Pheasant dog Capitol of the World.
http://cnylink.com/cnynews/view_news.ph ... 1268314282

Neil, I knew you lived close to the site of the first field trial ever held in the US. You were off slightly on the year it was held. Oct, 8th 1874 was the date listed in Taylor's Bench Show and Field Trial Records of America-1891 published in 1892. (There's a copy currently for sale at ebay) While many stories including a fairly recent one published in Pointing Dog Journal have shared that the winning dog's breed was a Gordon setter. Taylor's record list the dog's breed as just "Setter" and being black. Later he was described as being jet black with no tan or white markings. Of the 9 dogs drawn for the stake, besides the black setter listed, there was Eng. Setter, one Pointer, setters (no native setters listed as found listed in subsequent trials) and a dropper. " Knight may have been even a cross bred dog. He won a silver service for his owner, Mr. H. C. Prichitt.

Bill

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:45 am

Birddogz wrote:Oh, by the way, why shouldn't I be able to criticize the fact that there aren't many wild phez trials?

Because you are, IMHO, trolling on the subject had have been for a long time.

In case you haven't noticed, my opinion in such things is the one that matters. You can accept my strongly-worded suggestion or you can suffer the consequences of ignoring it.

BTW, it is strongly worded because you have not accepted less strongly worded ones several times now. God love you, you've been like a bull dog with Alzheimers on the subject: Won't let go and can't learn from past iterations.

Birddogz wrote:It is my opinion that wild birds are best, and there are PLENTY of wild pheasant in this country to run on.

There is little doubt that wild bird trials are best. The problem is that putting them on is very, very challenging, yet you make it out that people don't have wild pheasant trials like you would like to see because they are either just lazy or are scared of running against meat dogs.

So here is the deal: As an exercise, sit down and figure out what it would take to hold just the Open Gun Dog Stake (there were 3 other stakes) of the GSPCA national trial in conditions that you mention. Grounds, housing, parking, food, port-a-potties or similar, judges, marshalls, dog wagons, etc. For the exercise, plan on 100 dogs as there were 102 dogs in the OGD stake this year. If you run in braces, that's 50 braces. Say you run each brace for 30 minutes. What is the slack time between braces...you can't go back over the same grounds, right? The birds aren't there any more.

Cutting to the chase, you'll find that it is a huge undertaking with a lot of practical limitations.

Greg J.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:55 am

First off, I didn't start this thread. Secondly, why should I have to change my opinion? I haven't been name calling, quite the opposite as usual. A matter of fact in the end you admit that my idea IS better, it is just harder. Well, aren't all things worth doing difficult? The truth is, they would be too much work. That doesn't sound very American to me. I'm done with this topic, as people will continue to chase pet birds and be satisfied. Have at 'er boys.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:14 am

nearly all trial dogs will self-relocate, just many are not allowed to when in sight of the judges. If they did not, we would have 10 times the number of unproductives from run off birds, not just pheasant, but quail, Huns, etc.

The fact that so many unproductives occur during trials (Ames results) would seem to me to be a hazard of the sport. I don't know how you train a dog only to relocate when the judges/gallery aren't looking (does the dog turn its head to see if the "posse" is coming?) but if the goal is to show manners, style, run, etc, I can see where it would be safer just to enforce steadiness and suffer being picked up if unproductive.
I think as long as a dog can show its a real hunting dog after the trial games are over, we shouldn't have a problem. I train my dogs steady through all the testing....then they learn to handle the runners later in their careers...what's the difference? We keep wanting all our games to exactly mimick real hunting...except for the few events run on wild game, its not possible. Use the games for what they are and move on.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:25 am

Birddogz wrote:First off, I didn't start this thread. Secondly, why should I have to change my opinion? I haven't been name calling, quite the opposite as usual. A matter of fact in the end you admit that my idea IS better, it is just harder. Well, aren't all things worth doing difficult? The truth is, they would be too much work. That doesn't sound very American to me. I'm done with this topic, as people will continue to chase pet birds and be satisfied. Have at 'er boys.

As long as you drop it, I don't care what inanities you spew after the fact. It's the practical result that I care about.

Truthseeker · Post by **Truthseeker** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:17 am

dgfavor, do you think they would let birdogz and JKP run in any of those trials? they are both very interested in seeing a wild bird trial with pheasants

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:40 am

How many of you on this forum have at one time or still run field trials? How many of you on this forum still train your dogs in the same matter now that you don't field trial? How many on this forum have ever finished a dog on both sides, FC/AFC or even had dogs rated in GSPCA? I trainded the same way before I started field trialing as I do now. I have seen many trials won because of wild birds. I've put dogs up in first because they way they handled wild birds. Not seasoned dogs either. I'm talking about good young dogs. There are too many factors to go run trials just on wild birds in any part of the country. State laws are just a few. Seasons and weather. On another note not all dogs are just running trials until they are finished, most in fact hunt wild birds in the off season. All of mine do until the next trial.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:58 am

Truth, you're wasting your bandwidth trying to get BirdDogz to a trial. Ain't gonna happen. All the talk is just a smoke screen.

But, I'm an open-minded kind of guy. So, tell you what, BirdDogz; I've got a crisp $100 for you if you will:
1. Enter one of your current dogs in any AF-sanctioned wild bird trial, enter, and
2. Actually run under judgement.

I'm tight with the money, so I'll want to see proof that the two conditions were met. You're an M.D. that teaches science. You know what proof means. If there is a problem with acceptance of the proof, the matter to be decided by whatever John Lunseth, John being an attorney of some note.

DSemple · Post by **DSemple** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:09 am

I did the math.

I reckon I’ve got enough land I could put on a 30 dog weekend walking trial in South Dakota for around $150.00 per entry. Handlers would also have to have South Dakota small game license.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:33 am

Well, there you go, BirdDogz. I'll up my $100 to $150 so you won't be out the entry fee. Other conditions still apply. One more, since it's entirely new, a minimum of 20 dogs in the stake.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:43 am

I had my twenty foot pole out for this thread. Just kept pushing it down through the muck and it never reached bottom. :roll:

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:48 am

I probably could come up with the 50 bucks so it won't be as hard on you Greg. But we would probably have to PM birddogz since he has vacated this thread.

Ezzy

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:51 am

DSemple wrote:I did the math.

I reckon I’ve got enough land I could put on a 30 dog weekend walking trial in South Dakota for around $150.00 per entry. Handlers would also have to have South Dakota small game license.

Most AKC walking trials are thirty minutes and cost range from 45.00 to 50.00 per entry, but I'm game. Who's judging, what standards?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:51 am

I will put up $200 for judges expenses they have to be AKC and AF credible

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:05 am

Are you allowed to hold field trials on public land?

Also, where at any time, did I ever say I wanted to run trials? I never said that, in fact quite the opposite.

I would be interested in having a walking/hunting trial. I would even organize it. I think it would be a GREAT time. Just take dogs hunting. The birds have to be pointed, shot, and retrieved. Then we could have a great big fried pheasant feed afterwards. I actually think this is very doable. We could make it a 2 day hunt. Not sure of a scoring system, but I thought that it could be similar to a bass tournament. WIth hunters on different teams hunting together. I don't know, but it could be a very cool event. I don't care if only 15 dogs showed up. Any constructive ideas on format and scoring would be appreciated.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:08 am

Round & round the rugged rock the ragged rascal ran.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:16 am

BigShooter wrote:Round & round the rugged rock the ragged rascal ran.

This could be a problem for a couple of people, Birddogz and Elmer Fudd.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:19 am

Judging has been well thought out in any number of formats, I venture that most club trials are retrieving trials. Others may be more knowledgable but AF, AFTCA, and the Brittany people are really the only venues that consistently don't shoot/retrieve? However, BD, they don't shoot every bird. Just one to see that the dog is competent and its style, efficiency, enthusiasm, etc...

My offer for expenses stands for a recognized AKC or V Dog format (I know little about these) but not for the BDC type where hunters and dogs are timed. That's not my thing...

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:20 am

Birddogz wrote:Are you allowed to hold field trials on public land?

Also, where at any time, did I ever say I wanted to run trials? I never said that, in fact quite the opposite.

I would be interested in having a walking/hunting trial. I would even organize it. I think it would be a GREAT time. Just take dogs hunting. The birds have to be pointed, shot, and retrieved. Then we could have a great big fried pheasant feed afterwards. I actually think this is very doable. We could make it a 2 day hunt. Not sure of a scoring system, but I thought that it could be similar to a bass tournament. WIth hunters on different teams hunting together. I don't know, but it could be a very cool event. I don't care if only 15 dogs showed up. Any constructive ideas on format and scoring would be appreciated.

Sounds interesting. Let us know when and where. You need to come up with a catchy name and once it catches on someone may want to video it for a TV show. Could become a big money maker.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:21 am

BD,

Organize it. As you work through the details, post, honestly, the challenges that you run into.

First task: Nail down the rules/format.
Second task: Secure grounds for the trial.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:25 am

This would give everyone an opportunity to hunt with different dogs. I actually think that this could become a great "social" event as well. I think I could rent out a hall for a dinner fairly easily. I would even be able to cook and serve. I would need some help of course. Again, any suggestions on scoring would be welcome.

I don't see anything being illegal, as we would just be hunting.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:27 am

I just don't get it. If your favourite thing is hunting with bird dogs, doesen't it make sense for your next favourite thing to be trialing or testing your birddog in hunting scenarios even if you feel they only remotely resemble the hunting you like? Sure beats talking on here or most other past times if you ask me. I do know people, mostly retriever guys who only have the dogs to get the duck, and have no interest in training to a high level, but if you are in it for the dog work as much as the killing then I can't see how someone would be against testing or trialing.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:33 am

Chukar12 wrote:Judging has been well thought out in any number of formats, I venture that most club trials are retrieving trials. Others may be more knowledgable but AF, AFTCA, and the Brittany people are really the only venues that consistently don't shoot/retrieve? However, BD, they don't shoot every bird. Just one to see that the dog is competent and its style, efficiency, enthusiasm, etc...

My offer for expenses stands for a recognized AKC or V Dog format (I know little about these) but not for the BDC type where hunters and dogs are timed. That's not my thing...

Most AKC events do not kill birds on course. The Shorthair people are trying to keep a real format going. They usually kill birds at the end of the stake. A controlled retreive. They only blank birds on course. The AKC Championships they usually kill birds. First bird on course. I shot for them at the Chukar, Region 12 and several others. I would gladly judges .

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:34 am

Rules help...save you some Google time

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHPPNT.pdf
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RFTPNT.pdf

http://www.aftca.org/pdf_files/bylaws.pdf

http://www.navhda.org/testrule.pdf

http://www.navhda.org/testrule.pdf

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:34 am

Birddogz wrote:Are you allowed to hold field trials on public land?

Also, where at any time, did I ever say I wanted to run trials? I never said that, in fact quite the opposite.

I would be interested in having a walking/hunting trial. I would even organize it. I think it would be a GREAT time. Just take dogs hunting. The birds have to be pointed, shot, and retrieved. Then we could have a great big fried pheasant feed afterwards. I actually think this is very doable. We could make it a 2 day hunt. Not sure of a scoring system, but I thought that it could be similar to a bass tournament. WIth hunters on different teams hunting together. I don't know, but it could be a very cool event. I don't care if only 15 dogs showed up. Any constructive ideas on format and scoring would be appreciated.

Most trials are either on privte land or state or federal land.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:34 am

Birddogz wrote:This would give everyone an opportunity to hunt with different dogs. I actually think that this could become a great "social" event as well. I think I could rent out a hall for a dinner fairly easily. I would even be able to cook and serve. I would need some help of course. Again, any suggestions on scoring would be welcome.

I don't see anything being illegal, as we would just be hunting.

Keep working it. Call the ND G&F. Talk to them about it.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:35 am

Gotta have insurance

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:38 am

Chukar12 wrote:Gotta have insurance

What do I need insurance for? I'm just asking, because i really have no idea what all it would encompass. This is getting exciting though.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 am

If 'n theres live fire...insurance $$

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 am

Well you would be inviting people onto a premises so you would be liable for injury or property damage if the premises wasn't deemed "reasonably safe" You would just need a liability policy most likely.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 am

You have to have liability insurance for any organized event. It will either be required by the public entity that permits you to use public lands or any astute private land owner. BTW, the companies that insure these things will need to know that you are using live ammunition on course and in the process or it will most likely void the insurance.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:46 am

You would either need insurance or a waiver saying the event and its coordiators are held harmless in the event of an accident. Insurance would be the more expensive option but I would think that this kind of event should have a waiver anyway. Its like when you go bungee jumping or sky diving... "If you die, its not my fault" (to put it bluntly)...

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:48 am

Greg Jennings wrote:...practical limitations.

...remember this... You've just run into one of them. There are many others. Keep going.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:49 am

A waiver may fly with private landowners, however as a guide my experience has always been that they wish to be added as an additionally insured. BLM, USFS will want insurance.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:51 am

proudag08 wrote:You would either need insurance or a waiver saying the event and its coordiators are held harmless in the event of an accident. Insurance would be the more expensive option but I would think that this kind of event should have a waiver anyway. Its like when you go bungee jumping or sky diving... "If you die, its not my fault" (to put it bluntly)...

When I was running a martial arts dojo in my copious amounts of spare time, my attorney told me that a waiver was barely worth the paper it was written on and that I'd better have insurance for the LLC and that I and every other person that led a class had better have personal liability insurance.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:53 am

BD if you are serious about this you are going to find out alot about what we all have been trying to explain.I hope you can put it all together!!

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:56 am

Wow, this is almost as exciting as it was the last time all of these issues were brought up & discussed in the same context. It'll be interesting to see if it gains traction this time around and goes beyond the "why don't you do the research and get this organized stage". I had hoped by this time BD would've reported back on his progress to date. Certain professions are comprised of many individuals that expect others to think through and complete the difficult, time consuming detail work for them.