breeder type

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:39 pm

The saga continues...

I was given some advice that I may want to consider conformation breeders with DC's in their program to find the pup I am looking for. They said that the FT dogs will probably be more energy that I am looking for and may be too hard-headed for a newbie. Is this good advice? If so, are there any breeders that come to mind that breed this kind of dog?

RECAP: Im looking for my first gun dog, I want a family pet first, then a versitile hunter with a great nose (as opposed to a big range), then a hunt test/ field trial dog in that order. The doge will hunt waterfowl and upland. The dog will live inside with me and my wife. We do not have any kids.

Thanks, as always!!!

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:52 pm

It depends on who gave the advice, and how knowledgable and reputable they are. Sounds like you're on the right track by asking plenty of questions and having an idea in mind of what you want in a dog.

It also makes a breeder feel better that you've got a game plan going into things prior to your first bird dog. I always go by the theory, "You have to look at the finished product, before you can even start" If you know what your expectations are as a finished product, then you can build a solid plan to begin developing the finished product.

Good Luck on your quest for your first dog. I have limited experience with Versitile dogs, and I think that's what your looking for. I have EP's and Labs. No middle ground there.

There are a few VERY knowledgable people on here who can help you in the versatile dept.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:54 pm

proudag08 wrote:The saga continues...

I was given some advice that I may want to consider conformation breeders with DC's in their program to find the pup I am looking for. They said that the FT dogs will probably be more energy that I am looking for and may be too hard-headed for a newbie. Is this good advice? If so, are there any breeders that come to mind that breed this kind of dog?

Thanks, as always!!!

It is accurate to say different breedings produce dogs that display their energy in different ways, similar to Type A individuals vs. laid back individuals. It is highly inaccurate to say conformation breeders have any corner on the easy-headed, laid back dogs. From what you've learned so far please look at the individual breeding. Oodles of Field Trial, NAVHDA, NSTRA, etc. dogs meet conformation standards and could be shown but haven't been. By no means should you exclude dual (field & show) breeders from your search, either. Looking at the parents increases the odds of getting what you want but even in any given litter there can & often are both pistols & mellow dogs.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:00 pm

BigShooter wrote: Looking at the parents increases the odds of getting what you want but even in any given litter there can & often are both pistols & mellow dogs.

Agreed. Go visit and see the Sire and Dam. If you can see the dogs work too, Bonus.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:05 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:It depends on who gave the advice, and how knowledgable and reputable they are.

As far as this goes, based on the person that referred me to them, this person is very redputable.

BigShooter wrote:It is highly inaccurate to say conformation breeders have any corner on the easy-headed, laid back dogs.

Ok, then let me as you this question. Does a dog that has a solid foundation in obedience hindered in any way from hunting to its best ability. I have heard some argue that if a dog is trained too much in obedience they do not feel as free and therefore will not hunt as such.

Thanks for the replies guys!

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:06 pm

In my mind there is a difference between hard-headed and focused. Although this difference may be subtle. A hard-headed dog hears you, knows what you want it to do & ignores you or refuses to do it. Much of this activity can be related to the quality of the training but some is likely genetic. On the other hand, a focused bird finding machine may be so intent on its mission to locate prey it doesn't "hear you". When given light stimulation from an e-collar some of these gun dogs hesitate & give you that "huh ... did you want something look" and then they willingly do what you ask after you have their attention. Personally I like a focused bird finding machine in the field. This type of dog often can be very mellow and easy to handle in the house.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:11 pm

proudag08 wrote: Does a dog that has a solid foundation in obedience hindered in any way from hunting to its best ability. I have heard some argue that if a dog is trained too much in obedience they do not feel as free and therefore will not hunt as such.

Thanks for the replies guys!

A dog must have a solid foundation with obedience in order for anyone to be able to have a handle on that dog in the field. The issues are the way the obedience foundation has been built and the quality of the obedience training.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:13 pm

I'll say this. You can pool everybody on here who has trained dogs, and very few (if any) do it identically. Same is with their ideas and perceptions. They might have the same/similar end results, but the way of bringing em along varies drastically.

IMO, pup needs a solid dicipline foundation. If your dog isn't diciplined it makes things stressful and takes longer. I expect my dogs to take orders like Marines. Nothing on this planet makes me madder than a dog knowing a command, and willfully disobeying it.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:20 pm

There is, too, a subtle difference between a conformation breeder with DCs in the mix and breeders focusing on the dual shorthair...striving for, *expecting*, dogs that can win the DC.

Greg J.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:28 pm

Nice way of saying don't get a dog from a show breeder just because that dog has some DCs in it's background, especially if the DCs don't show up until the grandparent or older generations. Get a dog from proven hunting parents.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:41 pm

Nothing on this planet makes me madder than a dog knowing a command, and willfully disobeying it.

Couldn't agree more!!!

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:00 pm

3 time winner Rawhides Clown had show points.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:03 pm

gpblitz wrote:You might want to check out some of the NAVHDA breeders that also put comformation titles on there dog in the international show ring, I think you'll find the versatility in a dog that you're looking for.

Hang in there Howie......

Coveyrise64

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:16 pm

I think you better read this about show dogs, then decide if you should look to conformation breeders for dual type dogs

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:26 pm

ymepointer wrote:I think you better read this about show dogs, then decide if you should look to conformation breeders for dual type dogs

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

I don't believe you can find a breeder that is interested in the breed that doesn't look at conformation. And thank God they do to some extent or we wouldn't have the breeds we have today. And if you need proof it works look at the Brits and also more and more of the GSP's. Performance an conformation go hand in hand and not confrontational. Some breeders just seem to have trouble breeding for the complete package.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:28 pm

Some of this is true with terriers, but in the case of Jack Russells, thank god for dual purpose minded people and thank god for the way JRTCA registers dogs. I never thought I would see the day where the same JR could disembowel a ground hog then lay on a cancer patients lap. The JR standard as it stands today is about as perfect as it could be. No one needs a working terrier that bites people for touching its feet. Physically, there is no dog more robust or athletic than the modern JR.

Some show people have screwed up many breeds, like Gordons for example, but that shouldn't keep you from getting the balance of qualities you want in any breed.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:50 pm

Study the dogs...more important, study the people. Talk to a breeder/enthusiast long enough and they tell you what kind of dog they want and better yet what they are willing to sacrifice to get it. Be patient, learn the lingo and then listen. If you see a dog that you really like, ask where it came from and then do some more asking about dogs from that kennel.

IMO...there are two kinds of folks that "show" their performance dogs. Performance focused breeders that want to show they are competitive as far as structure and movement. Then there are show people who feel some kind of endorsement means their dogs can hunt...and these folks you want to avoid. NAVHDA is full of folks these days that are there to entertain their show dog and justify its ability with a NA score. I know that sounds harsh but we all know it to be true.

Visit kennels...more than once...no serious breeder minds a buyer that does their homework. How you are greeted by the dogs and the condition of the premises may tell you a lot about the dogs and about the breeders and what they are willing to accept.

We all spend so much time talking about the last bit of performance...tail angle...head crank....but by far the number one disappointment with a dog is being unable to live with it. Discipline has its bounds....starting with sound "wiring" is best. You will find that kennels with a long record of performance usually have good sound dogs...because success depends on mental stability.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:00 pm

In your original post you list clearly your order of priority...and the word "versatile" is prominent. If you bought a Brittany from me I would get you registered with AKC, probably a local breed club and my 'direction" for a newbie would tend to push them to hunting or AKC/AF type trials. You mention wanting a versatile dog, as you will likely be creating a relationship with the breeder you use you may wish to narrow your search to those that are using dogs the way that you will be using them.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:17 pm

The thing you have to remember there is no one set of breeders any better than another set. There are individuals who I think stick out far above the average. But my focus is always on the dogs and finding who produces the kind of dog I want and then when talking to them I can pretty much determine if they are what I call the outstanding breeder who will be there to help in the years to come. Dog titles tell me more about the dog I haven't been able to see personally, than the quality of the breeder. Some of the best do not always have titles but they perform the job I want them to.

Ezzy

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:18 pm

As someone who has focused on producing Dual Ch's for the past 30 yrs, I can't say that just because a dog is a DC that it will be calmer, or more layed back then any other dog. I happen to be big admirers of the Duals, their breeders and their owners. The breeders because they have tried to put together the total package. The owners because they have gone the extra yard. My motto has always been, bird dogs by breeding- show dogs because they can be.

Having DC's in the pedigree won't guarantee anything, and it sure beats having no titles at all in there! If you see good linebreeding on a couple of them in a pedigree your chances are improved of getting a pretty decent dog. And remember, there are Duals and then there are Duals...look for dogs that have excelled, not just finished either title.

Agree that you should do all possible to meet the sire and dam if possible. Talk to breeders and owners of the breed you are interested in and see if you start to hear a common thread. Beware of those who are breeding wonderdogs! Beware of those who do nothing but bad mouth other breeders. Check health clearances as well.

Terrierman has a good site when it comes to working terriers. Lots to learn there.... but the man has an ax to grind with anyone who doesn't see things his way. He's big on generalizations and sweeping statements.

Good luck on your search!
Fuzz

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:34 pm

For a Pointer guy ...this is a very funny thread.

All this conformation vs performance stuff is just a hoot. If you breed for performance only, then conformation will follow. You simply can not have performance w/o conformation.

Run away as fast as you can from "Show" breeders if you have any intention of hunting your dogs. Can some show bred dogs also hunt? Sure, but your percentages go way down. Why take the chance? And the nonsense about a field bred GSP being any less a house dog is absolute BS. In fact, I'll go a step further and suggest that a field bred dog will likely make a BETTER family companion because they are bred for biddability and intelligence. A show dog is not.

JMO.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:56 pm

Yawallac wrote:For a Pointer guy ...this is a very funny thread.

All this conformation vs performance stuff is just a hoot. If you breed for performance only, then conformation will follow. You simply can not have performance w/o conformation.

Run away as fast as you can from "Show" breeders if you have any intention of hunting your dogs. Can some show bred dogs also hunt? Sure, but your percentages go way down. Why take the chance? And the nonsense about a field bred GSP being any less a house dog is absolute BS. In fact, I'll go a step further and suggest that a field bred dog will likely make a BETTER family companion because they are bred for biddability and intelligence. A show dog is not.

JMO.

Yep real funny. Course I have never bred a dog for it's tail position, head position on point, or color like our pointer friends do. Just because no one has written it down doesn't mean the pointers don't have a standard any less stringent than any other breed.

You will hear the term style and confirmation. Those are both terms that mean looking good and able to perform in an attractive way.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:00 pm

You know nothing of Pointer performance breeding Ezzy.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:07 pm

How exactly does a bite effect performance? :roll:

...and you mentioned the International breed ring? What are you kidding me?!

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:14 pm

I can and will disagree with conformation. Targas, a big all age dog in American Field had a horrible bite , but won I think 60 hour championships. They only bred him once if I remember right. Didn't make him any worst of a bird dog. I judge alot of open gun dog and all age stakes for AKC and too many people are looking for that tail cracking as a dog runs. It looks great, but doen't make him any better at being a bird dog. Some are great. Cutter was great, alot of his sires were great, but threw bad bites. There are many HOF dogs that don't have looks, but they're in the Hall Of Fame. Bird dogs are bird dogs good looking or not. I look for a dog that is intense, watching him quiver standing on point. Have him watch the bird with laser eyes. Conformantion doen't make them good. Too many of the Show Dogs are not bred to hunt. They sure aren't any smarter. Just my two cents. I had the pleasure of getting a liver male in 1974 that was a product of some great German and American breeding. The breeder gave me the dog, just because I was going to hunt him. His exact words were then, "The Show people were going to screw the German Shorthair Dogs up so they were going to be just like the old Irish Setters. No more a bird dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:17 pm

Yawallac wrote:You know nothing of Pointer performance breeding Ezzy.

Then would it be true that you know nothing about conformation breeding. Since we have never met I wouldn't make that statement about anyone since I have no knowledge whether you do or not. And knowing what you have written and also produced I am sure it wouldn't be right. I have read a lot of what you and other have written about the breeding you do and how important the conformation is to you. I sure like some of the looks of many of your dogs and also of the performance that they have accomplished. You have told us how great Sarah's pups have been and how much you liked them when they were still in the puppy pen. And what you saw was the color and conformation at that age, not perfromance. And you loved the looks of the Strut pups. Think most of us agreed with you. And you like me have found that some of those pups we loved just didn't perform as well as we would have liked as they got older. But we still loved their looks.

Just isn't a thing wrong with breeding for conformation and performance in any breed whether it is your pointers or my Brits. The same principles apply.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:22 pm

Are you that tunnel visioned. DQ faults are DQ faults, matter how you TRY to justify it . Pointers do have a standard by AKC and other Orgs thro out the world. Just not in Ross's world and some others.

DQ? AKC? What the heck are you talking about!?

Some others? Really? The American Field has been around longer than the AKC ...and has been evaluating performance for 135 years! No silly conformation standards, simply performance. Good grief!

BTW, have you seen what an AKC Show Pointer looks like? It's no wonder that so many hunting breeds have been ruined by the "conformation" junkies.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:32 pm

Oh my goodness Howie! The Vetters started that because its EASY!! ....not because it means anything. It doesn't. Trust me when I tell you that the AKC show people give the Int. Ch ZERO credibility. Any dog can become an Int. Champion. Too funny!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:35 pm

KenF you need to check your records or info maybe it was a type o but 60 Hr Chs is not correct. A bitch named Selena holds the record around 32 I believe.Not trying to start an argument or fight just trying to keep things straight.

His correct name "Slick Dixie's Tarkus" has a few titles in front of it & had some where between 25 & 30 HR CH's I believe.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:54 pm

Look, not trying to rain on your parade. You used the AKC as a reference and I was just pointng out that an Int. Ch. means nothing to an AKC show breeder. But if your Int. Ch. proves to you that your dogs have proper conformation ...congratulations.

For an American Field breeder, conformation is by-product of performance. Form follows function. We just look at things from performance first ...the conformation will follow. The bite issue is a cosmetic issue imo and has nothing to do with performance. Having said that, I started in the GSP breed ring and put two show Championships on GSPs and even won a National Futurity. So the Pointers I breed have perfect bites. You want proof? Check my avatar's NAVHDA record. You will see that he has a perfect bite.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:15 pm

And you loved the looks of the Strut pups. Think most of us agreed with you. And you like me have found that some of those pups we loved just didn't perform as well as we would have liked as they got older. But we still loved their looks.

Here's one of those Strut pups Ezzy.
http://region1fieldtrials.blogspot.com/ ... nship.html

IMO if you breed for "conformation" you are breeding for the wrong thing. You are putting the cart before the horse. The AF Pointers have been so successful because in 135 years they have no breed standard. They breed for performance.

And the reason I stated that you know nothing of Pointer performance breeding was because of your post indicating that we breed for straight tails. True performance breeders DO NOT. Beautiful Pointers on point are a dime-a-dozen ...but show me a dog that can move and I'll show you what the great breeders breed for.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:26 pm

and when they are 8 wks old and you have to choose a puppy from a litter, what performance are you choosing it on? Or are you choosing it on it's conformation, the way it carries itself, the way it moves across the ground, it's feet, it's tail?

Seriously! What is it you are looking for in a baby puppy? Or I should say, what would you reccomend someone else to look for? What in a puppy is a deal breaker?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:45 pm

Seriously! What is it you are looking for in a baby puppy? Or I should say, what would you reccomend someone else to look for? What in a puppy is a deal breaker?

If I have to pick a pup at 8 weeks I just try to pick the boldest pup. The most important thing imo is to pick the right "litter".

INT CH. or AKC don't mean that much to me either. What both do and only do IMO is tell me the dog has been judged to have correct comformation.

Interesting Howie, do you really need someone telling you your dog has correct conformation?

The flip side bad bites are DQ in every comformation Standard I know of.

There is no flipside ...because there is no DQ ...because there is no conformation standard in the American Field. Please, please don't make me say it again.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:07 pm

proudag08 wrote:The saga continues...

I was given some advice that I may want to consider conformation breeders with DC's in their program to find the pup I am looking for. They said that the FT dogs will probably be more energy that I am looking for and may be too hard-headed for a newbie. Is this good advice? If so, are there any breeders that come to mind that breed this kind of dog?

RECAP: Im looking for my first gun dog, I want a family pet first, then a versitile hunter with a great nose (as opposed to a big range), then a hunt test/ field trial dog in that order. The doge will hunt waterfowl and upland. The dog will live inside with me and my wife. We do not have any kids.

Thanks, as always!!!

Man..... Your going to mind screw this thing to death! What ya need to do is look on this site, or even another site and find you a good litter in the want adds. Pick ya a pup and go with it. Make it part of your family.... Teach it what range you want, teach it what you expect out of it. That is all about having dogs.
If ya ask me your going to ge my opinion on what is the best, ya ask the otehr guy and you'll get his.... BUT I PROMISE YOU ONCE YOU GET A DOG, THAT DOG WILL BE IN YOUR OPINION THE BEST! Follow me here? No matter what the more you ask it AINT gonna get you any furhter in your search! Print off all the litters that are listed that you feel would be to your likkin and cut them out and throw them in a hat..... Pick one and send your money!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:08 pm

Yawallac wrote:
For an American Field breeder, conformation is by-product of performance. Form follows function. We just look at things from performance first ...the conformation will follow. The bite issue is a cosmetic issue imo and has nothing to do with performance.

Bite is not a direct performance issue; it is a health issue, it is an animal husbandry issue. That's why successful, ethical, well-respected breeders in every major hunting dog arena, from retrievers to spaniels to pointing dogs, view bite problems as a disqualification for breeding.

Cancer is not a performance issue, monorchidism is not a performance issue, hip displasia is (often) not a performance issue, incessant barking is not a performance issue. Low tail is not a performance issue; in fact if form truly follows function then we'd have pointers that run with dead tails and not the high cracking tails popular here.

The AF Pointers have been so successful because in 135 years they have no breed standard. They breed for performance.

Given the fact that other dog breeds have made similar improvements over the same time frame, while using different models and following different ethical standards, makes one wonder if the improvements in the breed were accomplished because of no standard or in spite of no standard. And that's something that only an objective review could attempt to determine; the inmates always think they are doing a great job of running the asylum.

It's interesting that "performance" is supposedly the only standard, as even the most well-used dogs spend an exponentially greater % of their lives doing something other than "performing".

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:11 pm

This thread is about GSP breeders that breed for the DC. If that's not what you're discussing, you're off-topic and stealing the young man's thread.

Greg J

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:45 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:KenF you need to check your records or info maybe it was a type o but 60 Hr Chs is not correct. A bitch named Selena holds the record around 32 I believe.Not trying to start an argument or fight just trying to keep things straight.

His correct name "Slick Dixie's Tarkus" has a few titles in front of it & had some where between 25 & 30 HR CH's I believe.

Yes I misspelled his name. and you are right about the number of hour stakes, but he is flat ugly. No conformation here at all. I've watched him run a number of times.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:58 pm

I have never suggested we throw the ugly ones away and if someone wants to put a title on them it's OK. But they should never make the breeding pool where they can pass on ugliness. If I have to go out and feed a dog everyday and look at it while I am doing it it better be a good looking dog. I was told years and years ago by one of the outstanding breeders of that time "it costs no more to feed a good looking one" and "that the good looking ones have just as good of performance genes as the ugly ones". I learned my lesson way back then.

One of the things I have noted and have heard other people comment on is the extra effort Ross had made to improve the conformation of his dogs, regardless of what he tries to tell everyone when he gets bored.

It is sound advice to look for breeders that breed for performance with sound conformational correct dogs. Thats what keeps people happy and gives us the chance at least to improve the breed that we choose.

I hope our OP heeds that advice and never looks back.

Ezzy

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:08 pm

I don't often do this, but I have to agree with Ross here. I was raised in the show game...even survived a few years back in the 1970's in GWPs. Almost ANY dog can become a show champion and in breeds where a large entry isn't needed, all you have to do is find a handful of dogs that are worse than yours. In the end, you have to know what good structure and movement are.

But Ross, there are a whole bunch of pointers that don't move very well. They are bow legged, elbows out, straight in the front, don't reach very well, choppy gaited like fox hounds...performance hasn't cured all the ills. Personally, I think a few breeders standing in a circle evaluating their own dogs has more merit than a dog show where the best dog of the day wins. AKC dog shows are a waste of time and I wouldn't contribute a plug nickel to an organization that has been as destructive for many breeds as the AKC.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:11 pm

The flip side bad bites are DQ in every comformation Standard I know of.

There is no flipside ...because there is no DQ ...because there is no conformation standard in the American Field. Please, please don't make me say it again.

[/quote]

Not sure the OP asked about a pointer or the AF?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:50 pm

kensfishing wrote:3 time winner Rawhides Clown had show points.

Really? His points report from AKC doesn't indicate that. I believe he sired at least one AKC conformation Ch, but I don't find where he ever received any class points.

mrcreole · Post by **mrcreole** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:45 pm

Ag, based on your previous posts and our correspondence I will give you this. Your shortlist has all of the very best breeders of gsps in your area. Tell each of them what you want. Go see the parents if you can. All of the breeders you talked about are class people who will not try to sell you a dog you won't be happy with.

In my years of gsp's I have had some dc and show champion influence in some of my dogs. I assure you DC or show champ dogs are not inherently "calmer" or more versitile. Train your pup early. Teach him what you expect of him. Just from our conversation I know you will do a good job. You are over-thinking if you will. My 2 cents.... I think Rob's upcoming litter will give you what you are looking for.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:15 am

Bite is not a direct performance issue; it is a health issue, it is an animal husbandry issue. That's why successful, ethical, well-respected breeders in every major hunting dog arena, from retrievers to spaniels to pointing dogs, view bite problems as a disqualification for breeding.

Unless the bite is so bad as to cause eating/digesting issues, it has absolutely no effect on a dog's health, husbandry or performance. To reject a dog from a breeding program because of a slightly misaligned bite is ridiculous imo. There are far more important factors.

Cancer is not a performance issue, monorchidism is not a performance issue, hip displasia is (often) not a performance issue, incessant barking is not a performance issue. Low tail is not a performance issue; in fact if form truly follows function then we'd have pointers that run with dead tails and not the high cracking tails popular here.

HD will most often show itself over time and effect a dogs movement. A dead tail negatively effects a dog's balance imo.

Given the fact that other dog breeds have made similar improvements over the same time frame
, while using different models and following different ethical standards, makes one wonder if the improvements in the breed were accomplished because of no standard or in spite of no standard.

What pointing breeds are you referring to? What "Given fact" can you offer to support that? What other pointing breeds come remotely close to the Pointer in terms of performance ...that have not infused Pointer blood to improve?

It's interesting that "performance" is supposedly the only standard, as even the most well-used dogs spend an exponentially greater % of their lives doing something other than "performing".

The dogs that we campaign run their first trials in September and come off the circuit at the end of May. They get June off. In mid-July workouts begin in earnest and by the end of August they are in top physical condition to begin the fall circuit again. I also pull our string in Dec. for a couple of weeks of R&R. The dogs that are on the circuit, that ultimately become the breeding stock for the breed, spend the majority of their lives in training. They have very little down time until they are retired. So when you say "an exponentially greater % of their lives doing something other than performing" we are not talking about the same dogs.

This thread is about GSP breeders that breed for the DC. If that's not what you're discussing, you're off-topic and stealing the young man's thread.

proudag08, if all this stuff is ruining your thread, I apologize, but I read beyond your first sentence. The point that I have been trying to make is that based upon your criteria, you are much better off getting a pup from a breeder that focuses on the field side, rather than the conformation side imo. I probably have as much first hand experience competing and working with both field and conformation bred GSPs as many of the posters in this thread. For the most well balanced dog to meet your list of requirements, I recommend looking at a field bred dog.

...but if you REALLY want the best dog ...get a Pointer.

Good luck.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:50 am

Locking the thread. It is way off topic and certain people have let their rather large egos get away from them. GDF, once again, is explicitly intended as a newbie-friendly site. It is not the place for certain individuals to loudly argue differences of opinion that we all know are not going to be resolved.

Greg J