Training and Genetics

Post Reply
User avatar
Winchey
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am
Location: Oromocto New Brunswick, Canada

Training and Genetics

Post by Winchey » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:00 pm

Does anyone know if training a dog to a high level contributes anything if said dog was bread? Or is it simply an indication that the dog can handle training. I have always thought that you have what you are born with, until I seen a brief news story about how there was a study that indicated that smoking can change your DNA, just got me thinking. Just wondering if training, environment, yadayada contributes anything to a breeding. I am not sure if I am being clear but hypotheticaly I want to know if you took two identical breeding pairs, hunted and trained one pair extensively, and the other pair never left the house, would the pups of each pair be the same or would the trained pairs be better?

P.S. I realize it is not possible to evaluate if dogs should be bread unless you hunt, test, trial them etc... Totaly hypothetical.

User avatar
ACooper
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 3393
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 pm
Location: Sometimes I'm in Oklahoma

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by ACooper » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:15 pm

There was a study a published few years ago (maybe several) the hypothesis was that learned behavior could be passed on to offspring. The study had some interesting findings not sure it was enough for me to believe.

Wish I could find it.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16646
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:21 pm

I think a dam can teach her pups some things she has possibly learned but there would be no way it would effect the genes that the pups inherit.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
solon
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:42 am
Location: SW Vermont

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by solon » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:22 pm

You should do some reading on Lamarck. Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lamarck

The communists were enamored by his theories and it set back biology in the USSR for decades. Nevertheless, there is a very active field of epigenetics, that is heritable traits that are not encoded in the genome itself as the primary sequence of the DNA. These epigenetic mechanisms can be influenced by experience, and also be heritable to various extents. Basically though, the training does not result in heritable traits. So do some google searches on epigenetics and you will learn some of the complexities that affect heritable traits.

Here is one example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/healt ... .html?_r=1

Solon

User avatar
kninebirddog
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 7829
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
Location: Coolidge AZ

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:40 pm

It is amazing what hard wiring can go on in a breeding specially when one pays attention
Environment can have some effects also for sure but if something is not in a dog to begin with it doesn't miraculously appear from no where

I have seen traits get passed on goofy things like bob has a setter who has an annoying circling trait and her daughter circles same way with the same look I mean carbon copy clone to how her mother does
to some neurotic behaviors even when said pups were raised by another bitch.
To some jumping traits when a dog gets excited..not that they jump but how they jump
how a dog can have a bit of a black heart and how the progeny will have some of the same black hearted traits if not worked right
Even have a line of setters who jump around the chain gang the same way
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

Birddogz
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Garrison, ND

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Birddogz » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:52 pm

My male Brittany has taught my DD how to steal food. I mean the exact same style of attack. :lol:
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

User avatar
kninebirddog
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 7829
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
Location: Coolidge AZ

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Birddogz wrote:My male Brittany has taught my DD how to steal food. I mean the exact same style of attack. :lol:

LMAO next will be DD will get into trouble for what the Brittany has started ..
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

User avatar
Winchey
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am
Location: Oromocto New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Winchey » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:46 am

So I did some reading and basically if I got the jist of it, all that could come from training is the occasional, or fluke passing on of something that was developed by training to the next generation and maybe a couple more before it fizzled out?

Truthseeker
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Truthseeker » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:21 am

i think certain things can be passed on. i believe bob wehle touched on ir briefly in snakefoot.

BigShooter
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:20 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by BigShooter » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:15 pm

A few years ago I was doing some research and read through the University of Minnesota studies of human maternal (identical) twins raised apart. Many of the subjects didn't even know they were a twin. In a number of cases the similarities between twins was astounding. Examples would be like: two male twins raised apart , they both smoked cigarettes and used the same brand, they both wore the same style hat, the both owned handguns of the same caliber, they had similar jobs, they married women with striking similarities, etc. Many similar traits that one might not necessary think of as genetically linked.

I don't think we have much evidence that training gets passed down very well if at all otherwise more All Age dogs would be producing more AA offspring rather than the "drag of the breed" that we tend to experience.

The more we learn, the more we figure out how little we know, but many of us are "legends in our own minds" anyway, for sure. :lol:
Mark

Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM

______________________________________________________

If it ain't broke - fix it

User avatar
Winchey
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am
Location: Oromocto New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Winchey » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:29 pm

I was just thinking that epigenetics may be responsible for a dog like the last setter to win at Ames, Boi, and how he was not much of a producer. I am most certainly over simplyfying but does it make sense that epigenetics would be responsible for some of the phenoms in the feild that don't seem to produce themselves?

BigShooter
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:20 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by BigShooter » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:46 pm

Winchey wrote:I was just thinking that epigenetics may be responsible for a dog like the last setter to win at Ames, Boi, and how he was not much of a producer. I am most certainly over simplyfying but does it make sense that epigenetics would be responsible for some of the phenoms in the feild that don't seem to produce themselves?
W,

You might have to rephrase the question because obviously the offspring are not clones & the other half of the genes in offspring come from the other parent.
Mark

Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM

______________________________________________________

If it ain't broke - fix it

Dave Quindt
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Dave Quindt » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:12 pm

BigShooter wrote:
W,

You might have to rephrase the question because obviously the offspring are not clones & the other half of the genes in offspring come from the other parent.
And that doesn't even address the issue that the genes responsible for the performances of those "phenoms in the field" are not necessarily the same genes passed when those dogs are bred.

User avatar
Winchey
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am
Location: Oromocto New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Winchey » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:32 pm

Well obviously there is many factors that would apply. I am not trying to lay down a definitive reason, I am just wondering if that could be one of the possible reasons.

User avatar
Onk
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 693
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:26 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Onk » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:41 pm

I am hoping good genetics get passed along and my sub-par dog training does not! 8)
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3600

"I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better." -George Bird Evans " Troubles with Bird Dogs"

poudre river gundogs
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:20 am

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by poudre river gundogs » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:19 am

It is a very interesting question. I dont think there is any doubt that there are individual traits passed on from both parents. As far as learned responses being developed in a parent and then passed on I don't know? What about attitude? Is that passed on? I would think so but of course the environment and training would have an effect. I think they are wired in such a way that you would see similar responses to a similar stimulus in a specific breeding especially if they are out of proven performers for several generations. Isn't that why we try to hedge our bet on a breeding with a strong pedigree with performers for several generations?

I'm betting there are more than a few traits we would like to try and instill in our dogs and have them passed on. Ahhhhh the perfect dog? Kind of an oxymoron? The perfect wife, kid, whatever?

Gary
http://www.poudrerivergundogs.com

User avatar
Onk
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 693
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:26 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Onk » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:13 am

Well I have the perfect wife and kids......at least thats what they tell me when I'm in doubt!
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3600

"I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better." -George Bird Evans " Troubles with Bird Dogs"

User avatar
Crestonegsp
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:21 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Training and Genetics

Post by Crestonegsp » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:46 am

Looking at horses, in the case of Secretariat never produced another foal that was able to win but did produce brood mares that produced some great stallions and race winners. Barbaro has a full brother that is not as good as he was so given that training and other factors can cause one offspring to perform better than another. Living here in the middle of the Bluegrass region of Kentucky and the TB industry I see all they put into getting these horses in research and trials. One of the biggest factors that they all agree on is where the foal is born and what they graze on their first two years of their life. Looking at what is passed along does not always come out in the next generation but can be passed along the next generation and giving you above average performance in the second generation but not the same level as before because of the drag of the race.

A pro dog trainer told me he had one line of dogs that would not stay broke, he had to every week during trial season take those dogs back through a refresher in breaking every week even it they ran the week before and won. What happened here with these dogs, can they not retain of was is a process of how they were raised by the owner?
Dan Schoenfelder

CH/FC PVR's Rugerheim Smokin' Liberty
CH/RUCH PVR's Rugerheim Double Shot
PVR N' Rugerheim Vendetta Ride
Rugerheim's Final Frontier

Post Reply