Puppy contract ????

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:45 pm

I know many people dont believe in doing contracts as a buyer or a seller, but I was trying to come up with a simple one.. my simple one quickly got longer with the more thought I put into it. Can y'all take a glance and tell me what ya think ?

to much to little ..would sign for a pup or wouldnt sign anything like that ? is there something should be added or deleted ?

here is a link to what I had in mind ..perhaps i am getting to complicated with it ...Dont know ,what y'all think ?? or perhaps its real good any input would be appreciated ??
http://www.highcalibergsp.com/Contract.html

Dennis

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:24 pm

Even critisisms would help .....thanks

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:32 pm

Looked pretty good till I got to item 6. I just dont like it when I pay for a pup but then are told what I canand cannot do with it. I have always said I wouldn't buy a pup that came with a contract so I have never sold one with a contract either. I offer to help anyway I can and guarantee the health of the pup when picked up and also against HD FOR THE FIRST 3 YEARS.

Ezzy

ArcticRetrievers · Post by **ArcticRetrievers** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:36 pm

It looks good, I do the same thing with titles (it encourages Limiteds to get titles too!)

A few things I would alter the wording on :

Unless you want the Congenital, or Defected dog Back, I might phrase it to say that:
"7. All puppies are guaranteed against crippling or disabling congenital defects for the puppies intended use for 28 months. Congenital defects must be from Genetics and not due to Owner Error (improper Diet, Accidents, or Abuse). If puppy is found dysplastic of hips by vet and OFA with a score of less than “Fair” by the OFA (Or the Equivilent score through Penn Hip)or to have a crippling or disabling defect that prevents the puppy/dog from being used for the puppies intended use. The dog /puppy May be returned at buyers expense and replaced with a puppy of the breeders next available litter. All or any shipping fees incurred for the return of a puppy/dog and replacement of a dog /puppy shall be at the buyers expense. The Breeder reserves the right to have any puppy/dog considered for replacement reexamined by a Vet of his choice at breeders expense to determine if puppy/dog actually has a congenital defect. If the two Vets disagree on the condition of the puppy /dog a 3rd Vet agreed on by both parties at both parties expense shall determine the condition of said puppy/dog to see if it is eligible for replacement. "

- For this I would Give the option of Returning the Puppy At the Buyers expense, or Upon fulfilling your Veterinary Requirements Have the option to spay/neuter said dog, and recieve a 2nd puppy at Half the original purchase price (My reasoning is that by the time a Negative OFA score is in the dog has spent 2 Years with this owner...either that or require an OFA prelim at 4-6 months...

For Your FRF Clause I would something to rephrase it like this:
"10. If puppy/dog is to be sold or given away breeder must be contacted and given first right of refusal. If the buyer options to sell the dog / puppy to another person after the breeder has declined to repurchase, the Dog Must be sold for NO Less than He/she was Offered Back to the Breeder. The buyer also agrees to have new buyer completely fill out a High Caliber Kennels Contract and agree to all terms of the contract. The Buyer agrees puppy shall never be turned over to an animal shelter or ASPCA and will return puppy/dog and all registration papers to breeder before doing so at no cost to the breeder"

Other than those wording bits it looks Great... This is usually a bit touchy for some people, but since you posted I thought I would input my opinion, and my reasons for them... The first of course is that your Average Pet owner Gets attached to their dog within 6 months, and if you require that dog to come back to you after 2 years it is a very difficult decision.

The second is so that someone doesnt Offer the Puppy Back to you at $3,000 Trained, you decline Because its more than you want to spend at the moment, and then the buyer turns around and sells the dog to a friend for $500 an amount you would have Gladly paid for a Finished Gun dog.

Good Luck
Arctic

ArcticRetrievers · Post by **ArcticRetrievers** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:42 pm

I dont think that your getting too complicated with it, mine is much more extensive... I might Offer a Longer Guaranteed for HD , I offer a Lifetime against Genetic Defects, not that everyone should I just feel that any dog I breed should be backed for life.

Ezzy, How do you guarantee that the future Buyers wont breed the puppy until they are ready?

kbshorthairs · Post by **kbshorthairs** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:43 pm

Ya can't keep 'em all......sell the ones you don't want or can't keep and go on down the road.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:14 am

Wow I just read it

Personally I would find another litter ...Not that contracts really are worth the paper they are written on unless they are notarized and filed and recorded with the courts of the cities where the contract was signed and where the pup is going to reside
BUT even at that

by the time a person goes through some of the medical bills you are speaking of at their cost they could just about purchase another pup much less if they are attached to the dog they may not want to give it back I have a friend going through that right now it will cost her about 1200 dollars to do all the tests to get the report the breeder wants to replace her dog

plus on HD...A dog that has mild HD can hunt I have one that is 10 and shows no outwards signs that he has a shallow hip another one who was severe hunted till he was 7 before I had Femoral Head Ostectomies done on him and he was retired from the preserve at 13. The breeder of the one that was mild sent me a replacement pup when he had litter that he could send me one..the other breeder was to bad so sad didn't care he had my money. Just saying

As for mandatory putting your kennel name on their pup...I really like and appreciate it when a buyer adds my name to their pup but when I purchase a pup I am going to put My kennel name on it.

I go over the registration papers with the owner...it is entirely up to them if they want to register Their pup or not

I sit down with the owners when they come and get their pup and try to explain to them what i do to try and insure a pup that is healthy and has the best chances to be the dog they want. I let them know I am there for them.

I have a very simple contract that I offer to a client if they want it and over the years I have had 1 person want it

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:34 am

Ezzy I too never been much on contracts either but think a simple one just to protect the dog and myself abit as a breeder and even give the buyer some guidlines as to what I am willing to do for them should there be a problem with the dog later down the road and give the buyer some security that I plan to stand behind what I breed would be a good idea....item 6 is definately staying if i do do the contract, I think every breeder should have thier names somewhere on their pups if the pup is successful helps to show what the breeder is producing, if the pup is a turd helps to show that as well ... I messed up with Belle and didnt include the breeders name felt bad about it afterward, thought the breeder deserved some recognition on what they produced but she earned a title before i gave it any thought , once a dog earns a title the dogs name cannot be changed per the AKC rules...
also that is the normal way the larger german breeders have done it for years with the A B C type litter so the breeder can easily regonize what dog came from what breeding and know what combination worked well after testing.. Not that I plan on being a big breeder but it makes a simple way to identify which breeding a dog in say a NAVHDA test listing came from using this method and which breeding worked well or didnt work well..the buyer can call the dog anything, its just the registered name , my dog Caliber is out of Quincy vd westwind his call name is MAX ...

artic great suggestions I am going to use them... I dont believe in selling a dog with limited registrations unless the dog has something wrong with it that makes it an unbreedable dog and then I would only do so after making the buyer aware of the problem if there was one and perhaps sell the pup at a much reduced rate or give the dog away to a good home with the claus the dog be fixed, thats just me ... I like ezzy believe you bought it you should be able to do pretty much what ya want with it , but threw in a few clauses I feel should be written just to protect the dog and myself and and my breeders name.

Some great suggestions Y'all thanks keep em coming

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:49 am

Oh ezzy well if they aint testing the dog to prove there is something wrong with it , how would you know there is something wrong with it ?
just cause they said so ? I surely aint gonna pay to have someone elses dog OFA tested to see if it has hip dyspasia or not ....
the only buyer expenses they have to do is pay for shipping for a return and show me proof the dog is suffering from a congenital defect .. I just threw a claus or two in there so people aint trying to return a dog that nothing is wrong with so they can get an exchange pup ..I know some people have puppy love disorders where they love the puppies when they get bigger no longer want the dog then go and buy another puppy and get rid of the older dog , I seen it several times

and they could put their kennel name on it to like I done with Sage she has three kennel names on her name
Mine, Countryside and the studs Sundance

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:54 am

I also explain to them about the breed club and show them the magazines ...

I mostly tell a person to plan on spending at least an hour when they come and get their pup
let the pup play and get some socialization going and also sit and talk and try to answer any questions they may have

ArcticRetrievers · Post by **ArcticRetrievers** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:10 am

I dont know that having No contract is the way to go...alot of things can happen and get left out. Though I suppose it depends on what you breed for, I do DC, and Hunt testing on my kids...so any Puppy with Full Reg. leaves here with a contract...those with limited leave with a contract that is more along the lines of "I will not breed this dog." Then again I am more Particular with My Labs Than My GWPS.

Knine is right for the name...Dont get me wrong I require my Kennel name, but the rest I leave a bit more open... allowing the owner to add their kennel name works well too...Ex . If I had a dog from you I might want... "High Caliber Aurelius Of The Arctic" That Satisfies your Kennel Name, your litter "A" theme and My kennel Name for recognition in trials or whatnot. I give my buyer the option...limiteds are a little bit more lax as far as names go, but I offer anywhere from Arctic, Arctic's, Of the Arctic, or Vom Arktis (German) it gives them a good option and ensures that my kennel name (and the recognition that goes with it) are in there. Some people like not having to think of a Reg'd Name so ... "A" Von Der High Caliber works, but others might like a little more freedom, especially those who breed, and compete with their dogs. I assume you want the German Option for the DK enthuisiasts.

I just read it again, and asking that everything be sent back to you seems a little much...either you dont trust the buyer (in that case dont sell) or you want to keep records (but remember that this isnt a co-own) I might ask them to keep in touch, with e-mails at least once a year, but thats really all you can ask for...

Arctic

PS. I only sell Limiteds to those who arent interested in breeding, or on dogs who have conformational faults, They are sold at a lower price than the others, but just as valuable in the field.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:28 am

I dual register my pups and FDSB only allows 24 total letters and 4 words max..so requiring someone to add my kennel name is counted as 2 words the K is counted as 1 Nine is 2
and as for pups that have issues I with hold papers till proof of spay or neuter.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:40 am

I actually mixed up kinebird and ezzy on that last post sorry Ezzy LOL

yes artic
I threw in the copy of titles earned in there so i could keep records about how the dogs produced performed, but if someone didnt follow it how would i really know ...or would i really pressure them about it if i seen they earned a title and didnt send me a copy ..NO ..I just would like them to do it so i could keep records so I threw it in there..perhaps I should reword it..

ArcticRetrievers · Post by **ArcticRetrievers** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:56 am

Have Fun, and I hope you Have a Great Litter!

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:06 am

Thanks Artic , I just updated it abit with a lot of your suggestions

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:00 am

Contracts only have meaning if you are prepared to legally enforce them. With lawyers running 4-600 hr, who among us ready to start the meter running to reclaim a pup because it spends too much on a chain?

Vet your buyers...turn them down if it doesn't smell right. I look for good homes first...evidence that folks have taken care of dogs properly...references are good....they HAVE to hunt....families are better....testing/competing is a bonus but breeders have to be responsible for the next generation of breeding stock.

All I ask is if life takes a turn for the worse, call me first. My health guarantee is simple...and genetic disorder that compromises the dog in anyway results in one action....return the dog for full price refund....I reserve the right to have the dog examined. I don't want anyone bad mouthing my efforts...I'll do what it takes to make it right. But every buyer needs to understand buying a dog is not like buying apples...there is risk...none of us knows how to guarantee genetics.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:09 am

I have gotten much better results with a handshake and a telephone call in a week to see if everything is OK or if there is something I can help with. Practically all of my pups end up being brought back to visit and I still get calls and e-mails from most of the owners. Two things I want to say and don't take them personally but they are more of the code I live by. First is that piece of paper if needed will cost you way more than received for the whole litter and I am talking several thousands of dollars. That's a great deal more than I want to pay because some didn't name the dog like I wanted or maybe even bred the dog when I didn't think they should. Second, I have never found forced friendship worked very well. If I even suspicioned I might need that contract, I wouldn't sell the pup. I can't think of a single incident or a single customer that I don't call a friend today or have had a single one go against anything we have talked about. I continue to receive calls and many e-mails asking questions, sending pictures, or setting up a time when they can come by to hunt the dogs or go out for supper. Contracts do not allow for that close of a relationship because you are making this whole deal a business transaction rather than a personal one. And the one or two problems your contract may solve in your lifetime isn't worth a day of the hundreds of friendships we have made over that same period.

When I have to start worrying about contracts instead of trusting people it is time to hang the whole thing up. We aren't buying a house or a piece of land but rather I am providing a well bred puppy to a family that wants the experience of owning, caring for, hunting, or doing other activities with it for the education and enjoyment it can provide for them and the children. There have been several I gave away and many that ended up with the price reduced because I wanted that puppy to go to that family. Hopefully my hobby will provide myself and many other people a lifetime of enjoyment and memories for myself and a lot of other families.

Just my way of thinking,

Ezzy

to the point · Post by **to the point** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:37 am

Ezzy nailed it

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:14 am

I agree with most everything Ezzy said in all his post. I also would not buy a pup from someone who told me what to do with the pup. As far as I am concerned what I want to do with a pup is none of the buyers buisness (but I do understand your reasons for the contract).

Have you talked to a lawyer about your contract? I am going to guess he/she would tell you the contract is not worth the paper it is printed on.

It is nice to see people who do care about where/who there pups are going, I commend you for that.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:36 am

Except for the health GTY there is nothing that can be enforced in that contract because most of the terms have no remedy. Dennis, you are in NJ like me so there are some state laws that protect the buyer with or without a contract.

However, I think you have the right to pick the buyers that will use the dog the way you want. That might be a point of contention with many people. Many of those points I don't believe are actually contractual in a legal sense. What is the remedy for the buyer not sending you a change of address?

You can offer a health GTY unilaterally.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:05 pm

Thanks for the input guys and yes I totally understand what Ezzy is saying , and yes the contract is only worth the paper its printed on if you feel the option broken is really worthy of spending the thousands of dollars it will cost you to fight for it in court.
Ezzy your right its great to have friends and create lasting relationships as part of being a breeder but I think its a little easyier to keep those friends as friends if a few items are spelled out for them, so there is no confusion later on.
so I thought it a good idea to spell some things out , so nothing in missed in conversation that later becomes an issue the new owner or myself and ends up with either us not happy with , the transaction ...

Mcboscoe your right as well NJ has laws for lemon puppies and they even are in effect for any breeders who sell and ship a puppy to NJ from another state(although most breeders and puppy buyers dont realize that ) this contract coincides with and is better than NJ puppy law. Many other states have puppy lemon laws as well that many breeders and new puppy owners arent aware of such as PA and many others..
NJ law states the buyer may return the pup within 14 days of purchase for illness with proof of illness same as my contract
NJ law states the puppy may be returned for 6 months for congenital defects , my contract says ups that to 36 months , but truthfully if it was a serious defect I would want the dog returned at any age and not running around with my name on it or breeding the defect into the gene pool. that is something i wouldnt put into writing in the contract , just because i wouldnt want a dog 15 years old who has worked all them years for the owner returned for a puppy because it had a slight defect ,but would do if it was a serious defect..

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:15 pm

I have said it before & will say it again.If my word & handshake is not good enough then I don't trust you anymore then you trust me.
I would go else where.

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:38 pm

Are you checking references-vets and personal?
I believe in contracts. Not to tell people what to do, but to tell them what I have done and will do, and what I will guarantee. This is to protect me if something goes wrong. People will go to court for really strange reasons. The contract eliminates the "he said-she said" by documenting what was said. And, unfortunately, the closer they are to you, the more you need a contract. If you don't have a written contract and something goes wrong, somebody else will decide what your agreement was and what the remedy will be. Not all judges really know or understand dogs and hunters. If the buyer doesn't like the contract, they can try to negotiate or can go elsewhere

The pups are, of course, your property and you get to make the rules on selling them. But you will probably find that the more restrictions you include and the more performances you require, the smaller your client group becomes. The training and FT can be handled by checking out the background of potential buyers.

Compared to samples I've seen of adoption contracts some rescues use, yours is not really restrictive.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:38 pm

Under the laws of NJ, what recourse do I have as the seller as far as idiocy, lack of proper care, training, exposure, socialization, etc, etc, etc....on the part of the buyer??

I think I know the answer.... :roll:

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:48 pm

JKP wrote:Under the laws of NJ, what recourse do I have as the seller as far as idiocy, lack of proper care, training, exposure, socialization, etc, etc, etc....on the part of the buyer??

I think I know the answer.... :roll:

Zero, dogs are property. Due diligence on the buyer is all you can do. You always have the ability to say no to a candidate but once they take the puppy home it is theirs and you just hope and pray they know what they are doing or are willing to learn.

My point above was a technical point, as to what is enforceable and what is not.

I would rather do an extensive puppy questionnaire as opposed to a contract. I think if you are sitting at a table and ask a possible buyer if they would spend $2,000 to have a sock removed from a dog's stomach and they act weird, then you might want to skip them.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:35 pm

I wouldn't buy a pup with a contract...nor would I sell one. I'm a hand shake kind of guy myself.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:12 pm

I would rather do an extensive puppy questionnaire as opposed to a contract. I think if you are sitting at a table and ask a possible buyer if they would spend $2,000 to have a sock removed from a dog's stomach and they act weird, then you might want to skip them.

If I had someone ask me that I think I would just get up and leave. If someone asked if I would spend 2000 dollars on a puppy for any reason I would just say it would depend on the situation and I don't answer hypothecial questions like that since no one knows till the situation comes up.

Ezzy

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:15 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
I would rather do an extensive puppy questionnaire as opposed to a contract. I think if you are sitting at a table and ask a possible buyer if they would spend $2,000 to have a sock removed from a dog's stomach and they act weird, then you might want to skip them.
If I had someone ask me that I think I would just get up and leave. If someone asked if I would spend 2000 dollars on a puppy for any reason I would just say it would depend on the situation and I don't answer hypothecial questions like that since no one knows till the situation comes up.

Ezzy

Great answer!!!

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
I would rather do an extensive puppy questionnaire as opposed to a contract. I think if you are sitting at a table and ask a possible buyer if they would spend $2,000 to have a sock removed from a dog's stomach and they act weird, then you might want to skip them.
If I had someone ask me that I think I would just get up and leave. If someone asked if I would spend 2000 dollars on a puppy for any reason I would just say it would depend on the situation and I don't answer hypothecial questions like that since no one knows till the situation comes up.

Ezzy

Ezzy,

Would you leave or give that answer? How someone reacts to that question would be important to me. The idea of a question like that is to judge the temperament and attitude of the buyer. I think every breeder would appreciate a thoughtful and considerate answer to that question.

You breed so if you asked that question and the guy laughed and said I would put a .22 behind its ears, would you sell him the pup?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:51 pm

mcbosco wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
I would rather do an extensive puppy questionnaire as opposed to a contract. I think if you are sitting at a table and ask a possible buyer if they would spend $2,000 to have a sock removed from a dog's stomach and they act weird, then you might want to skip them.
If I had someone ask me that I think I would just get up and leave. If someone asked if I would spend 2000 dollars on a puppy for any reason I would just say it would depend on the situation and I don't answer hypothecial questions like that since no one knows till the situation comes up.

Ezzy
Ezzy,

Would you leave or give that answer? How someone reacts to that question would be important to me. The idea of a question like that is to judge the temperament and attitude of the buyer. I think every breeder would appreciate a thoughtful and considerate answer to that question.

You breed so if you asked that question and the guy laughed and said I would put a .22 behind its ears, would you sell him the pup?

I am as serious as a heart attack. I would not even consider buying a pup from you or anyone that asked and expected ananswer to a question like that. I probably would have got up off of my knee and left with the ring and with no one to wear it if my wife's father had asked that when I ASKED PERMISSION TO MARRY HIS DAUGHTER.

I agree a question like that could be used to judge temperment and attitude and the person asking such a question just failed on both accounts as they show more interest in my private life than they are in finding a good home for a puppy.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:26 pm

First, I would not further consider a pup from a breeder with such a contract, but......

The thing that bothers me with these very demanding breeder contracts is that usually (can't find it in this one, correct me if I'm wrong) there is no where in those documents that offers a guarantee that the breeder will take the dog back at any time in its life that such a need would arise. I am in a job that brings me in contact with a lot of folks looking to buy puppies or adopt dogs from rescue. They want to know what to ask breeders or rescue groups. My top pick for that question is, "What will become of the dog if I am legitimately unable to keep it?" If a breeder cannot guarantee a home for each and every pup they produce, whether with them or with another owner, for the lifetime of that dog, then they should rethink their reasons for breeding. That doesn't mean as a breeder you should plan on getting back every dog you ever produced in a worst case scenario, but it does mean you should be prepared and networked to care for them should the need arise.

JMO....

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:44 pm

Not everyone wants to Give back a dog they have had for a couple years either The breeder where i had an issue with a pup all he wanted was vet proof there was something wrong have it spay or neutered proof of that and he would replace with a pup and he didn't want the dog with issues back unless the owner wanted to give it back.

I have a friend that has a dog with issues and by the time she would pay for all the tests and stuff required she would have more in that then just purchasing a new pup from another breeder Plus the family is attached to the dog and do not wish to give it back to the breeder.

So just as much as this contract is supposed to be for a pup it has so many loop holes to getting a breeder out of having to deal with stuff because they make it financially prohibitive to follow the supposed contract to a T, have their Vet and then a second vet verify the first vet $$$$$$$...

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:11 pm

well kinebird apparently you cant read too well, it states I will pay for the second Vet opinion and if the vets disagree we both pay for a 3rd if there is a dispute ,

I dont see where this contract is very restrictive at all as someone stated
it provides full breeding rights to the pup
It states My kennel name be used on the pup and the german use of the alphabet and states a breeder can work out with me putting his kennel name on the pup as well
and the dog wont live on a chain .
and copies of titles earned would be copyied for me or emailed (most people want to brag about their dogs accomplishments anyway)
it also gives the buyer a fairly good warrenty on the pup more so than many breeders offer, i did throw some clauses on how we will determine there is a defect to protect me (if I feel they are trying to pull something shady) and I changed the part to that if the owner decides to keep the pup with a spay or neuter I will give him a 50 % discount on new pup if it has a defect (incase they became attached )
I wouldnt call that real restrictive of a contract , but maybe it is, thats why I asked y'alls opinion
Someone also stated where does it say i will take the dog back if it needs be rehomed ...that would be covered under the part that says the buyer wont give it to an ASPCA or animal shelter and will return it to me instead...there is no time frame for that..I also added in if someone is consdering a pup and has a problem or question on the contract contact me (so we can work out the details before signing )

I also put this on Facebook with a lot of people who are not breeders and asked their opinions or if this would be a contract that would make them nervous about considering a pup , all the comments recieved where positive ones about the contract ..Not one negative ..
But anyway I appreciate the input
Thanks
Dennis

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:32 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I have said it before & will say it again.If my word & handshake is not good enough then I don't trust you anymore then you trust me.
I would go else where.

Agree....

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:42 pm

Yeah had to go back and reread as much gets lost in the contract

You asked and we gave our thoughts, glad every one on face book think it is great...

as stated before

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:
I have said it before & will say it again.If my word & handshake is not good enough then I don't trust you anymore then you trust me.
I would go else where.

FWIW Just saying there are plenty of quality breedings out there with out such contracts and I am one that takes my program serious also and I would seek another breeder.

Good Luck

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:02 pm

well I can give ya a prime example brenda , I know a fella very well who has a good dog with an excellent nose , he wanted to breed it someday , he treats the dog as if it were his son and trains and hunts with it a lot, and even does some hunt testing (prime canidate for any breeder to sell a dog to), he has become very attached to the dog ..at a couple years old the dog developed a serious health condition, that i feel certainly makes this dog an unbreedable dog, the breeder and he had no contract or anything that expressed what the breeder wished if the dog had health issues later on in life . he talked to a Vet who stated the health issue could be carried to the litter or may not carry over to the litter its unknown if it will be carried over or not ..I personaly think the dog should be removed from the genepool and expressed this to him many times but he is still considering breeding the dog , great guy but thinking with his heart and not his head about his possible breeding of the dog, at least with a contract you can make sure you didnt forget in conversation to mention your wishes as to what you hope to happen if a dog developes a serious health condition you produced , you will have to remember to discuss it if its in the writing...

this question is not only for you but Ezzy as well as I know you both have produced a lot of pups ...All the dogs you have sold with a handshake you never had any issues with any buyers at a later date that didnt really get resolved to your satisfaction??

I also know another couple that are very nice people as well and to meet them you would think they are great canidates for a pup but they have puppy sydrome (as I like to call it) they like to buy puppies then when the pups are grown 2-3 years they like to give them away to kill shelters and later get more puppies with good intentions each time but to date I know of at least 7 dogs they have done this with ..real good peole but i wouldnt sell them a dog of mine at any price ..

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:04 pm

I did not know my kennel name had to be first GB , wow thanks for that info, that is important to find out ...My kennel name is registered with the NAVHDA though already..

Oh and GB and Kinebird could you all answer the question as well have you ever had an issue arise after the handshake method with any buyers that that didnt really get resolved to your liking at a later date ?

I like the handshake method as well and really dont like restrictive contracts I have seen some that make my eyes bleed to read them and have seen quite a few I would never consider signing as a buyer due to limited registrations (some with really rediculous rules to lift the limited registration) and some where the breeder picks who you breed the dog to and such ..
thats one of the reasons I was hoping to come up with a simple one that expressed the things i expected from a buyer and showng them a bit of what they can expect from me as a seller.. but of course dont want it so restrictive to scare potential good puppy canidates away..

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:30 pm

this question is not only for you but Ezzy as well as I know you both have produced a lot of pups ...All the dogs you have sold with a handshake you never had any issues with any buyers at a later date that didnt really get resolved to your satisfaction??

I can think of one instance where the owner made a decision I wouldn't have but he had paid good money for the dog and I think that gives him the right to make those decisions. And all I am talking about is a pup of mine that went oversize but was a great dog in the field. I do not condone anyone breeding a dog that is out of standard but many do and still call that responsable breeding. I will continue to work towards educating people but they did pay their money for a pup of mine and when they did that it became their dog. I have had two puppies with bites that weren't perfect and they both got sold with a limited registration. But I can say that over the past 50 years I have never bought or sold a pup with a contract and doubt now that I ever will and guess I have been lucky but never had a need for one. Of course I have refused some people that have wanted puppies but I still feel a conversation and a handshake is about as good of a contract as you can have short of spending several thousand dollars to have it drawn up legally. and then what I bought was a contract but lost the possibility of a good friendship. But I would rather deal with friends.

Ezzy

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:47 pm

True ezzy and the contract certainly doesnt cover every issue that could arise , just thought it would help give a few guidleines , as to what I would expect from a buyer and what show the minimum as to what they could expect of me. Many buyers also like to see a written warrenty

Oh and thanks GB I will have to look into it more to make sure before making a decision on where to put my name in the front or the back , I did notice its easier to find a breeders dogs in a NAHVDA award listing if the name is in the front as they are always in alphabetical order.. so if there is a bunch from say your kennel that have earned an title they would be easier to find then say westwind dogs who uses the name at the rear as I was thinking of doing..

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:52 pm

Honestly, as far as providing an assurance of health, a CHIC Number provides proof that your breeding stock has been tested and has passed with respect to the major health concerns of the breed.

LBH · Post by **LBH** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm

briarpatch wrote: I also put this on Facebook with a lot of people who are not breeders and asked their opinions or if this would be a contract that would make them nervous about considering a pup , all the comments recieved where positive ones about the contract ..Not one negative ..
But anyway I appreciate the input
Thanks
Dennis

I'm still in this game learning. But since the subject basically comes down to opinions, I will share mine. First off ... Facebook isn't anything to make decisions off of. Second, it seems as you are defending the contract every post you make. If the public is saying no .... it might be smart to listen to them as the public is who buys your pups after all, this may end up hurting you more than helping you. Third, a contract cannot stop someone from doing the unwanted. A dishonest person will be dishonest .... contract or no contract. It all comes down to that individuals character and whether they will follow the guidelines you have set. Get to know the client, make friends, develope a friendship where you still have their respect, and you both have each others trust. If you breed long enough, my guess is you'll get screwed a couple times with or without the contract.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:58 pm

Cajun , testing is good but assures me of nothing you as a breeder are willing to do if the parents have been tested and the dog still comes up with a serious defect..
testing doesnt eliminate the possibility of all serious defects

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:02 am

briarpatch wrote:Cajun , testing is good but assures me of nothing you as a breeder are willing to do if the parents have been tested and the dog still comes up with a serious defect..
testing doesnt eliminate the possibility of all serious defects

I noticed that there was nothing on any of your dogs on OFA. That's what brought it to mind. As a breeder, I don't think I'd want to warrant against heart, eye, and joint problems if I hadn't tested the parents. JMO.

LBH · Post by **LBH** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:08 am

You can't name the pup what you want? You can't keep it on a chain for more than a couple hours? If you are at a field trial / hunt test over night the dog can't sleep on the stake out? What if the owner makes the dog sleep on the chain, what can you do about it? Seems like a TON of hassle and headaches for a dog spending the night on the chain when at any events.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:16 am

If you breed long enough, my guess is you'll get screwed a couple times with or without the contract

I would have to guess that is true , and yes I have defended the contract abit as i like the idea behind it , perhaps I will do away with it though and keep a copy to use it as a guideline discussion with potential buyers I wil have to give it more thought..
Oh Cajun yes the hounds havent been tested yet for OFA but am planning on doing it after the holidays , and I am not concerned , I seriously doubt the dogs will have any problems with health issues ,they are sound, if they are found to have one the breeding will certainly be canceled (thats one of the reasons I am not accepting deposits yet ) JMO

LBH your getting rediculous now , it clearly states the dog can be kept on a chain at an event , it also clearly states the dog cannot live on a chain..
Sorry I dont raise or breed my dogs to live on chains , if thats something anyone is looking for they can look for another breeder..

JeremyS · Post by **JeremyS** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:29 am

Just a thought, but how about instead of putting a contract together, how about a puppy information packet? You could take a lot of the info and expectations from the contract and put what you expect from the buyer and then some type of guarantee from you as the seller in regards to the health, etc. Maybe make it a little less formal, but still something on paper, no signature required, that the buyer can just have as a little reminder of how you are working together to have a positive dog ownership experience. It seems to me that the major issue is the perceived lack of trust that can come with the formal "contract". I would think that buyers would be more receptive to your expectations if they are presented in a way that makes it look more like a "I'm your friend and will do whatever I can to help" deal than a one side vs. the other type arrangement.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:31 am

if it is a pup that has an issue and I want it out of the gene pool simple no papers until proof of spay or neuter

and no matter what that contract is not enforceable

Are you going to follow that pup around so that the owners follow your contract
what will you do if they do not follow it

I can be responsible for my pup as much as I can but ..there comes a point where an owner needs to be responsible for what they do. If One is so concerned about what is going on with a pup they sell ..Then don't sell them raise them yourself

I have enough with government

I go over as much as I can with the new owner. Let them know what steps I have taken in my program
And when that pup heads down the road..It is their pup

I am their if they need me and if that pup shows up with issues the breeder can contact me show me what is going on and then we discuss what is going to make the situation the best

If they want to keep the pup/dog and it will still do what they want then we work on something in the future if it cant hunt or do what they want I work on a replacement been there done that have dealt with a breeder who i respect who has same type policy i got a dog that had a slight issue dog was a very nice trial dog his issue didn't stop him from trialing but it did stop him from being in a breeding program. I got a replacement pup and I kept the other dog I even offered the breeder some money for keeping the first dog. He said he didn't want him if I was willing to keep him. as the dog was only going to take space in his kennel.
So what will you do with a pup that has an issue you get back?

So over the years I have paid to take care of a couple issues that cropped up with in 10 days after a sale.
I have taken back a couple dogs that owners could no longer take care of

I have offered to buy a pup back that against my suggestion was taken to some trainer which I found out has a rep for being very hard handed and no patience. the people refused my offer of even taking the dog for a month of free training I made plenty of offers ..All I can figure they were to embarrassed to let me see the dog as every time i made the offers over a 6 month time when the dog was at their super trainer they would stop emailing and calling me and refused to return my calls.

Yes my heart goes out to that pup but it is their dog. I offered what I could some free training even offered to buy the dog back even tried to get a buddy of mine to go look at the dog like he was interested from them but as soon as it came to showing the dog in the field every excuse in the book came up where they couldn't do it but the guy could come look at the dog in the back yard.

Nothing I can do even if I had some fancy contract there would still be nothing I can do..IT HAPPENS

ArcticRetrievers · Post by **ArcticRetrievers** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:55 am

remmy wrote:I wouldn't buy a pup with a contract...nor would I sell one. I'm a hand shake kind of guy myself.

You all say you wouldnt buy a pup with a contract, but the contract isnt to "Dictate" what the buyer must do, it is there to Protect you,The breeder as well as the buyer I call mine a "Puppy Pre-Nup" It is essentially there to ensure that if you chose to, you could follow the proper channels, and get the dog back if something were to happen (I have had a few breeder friends spend plenty of money to get back a puppy/dog on principal. its not often, but it happens)And Vice-Versa (For example to protect the buyer on his investment in a dog should he/she be unbreedable) Otherwise your "agreement" is completely one-sided - your telling the buyer that you have done Numerous things to ensure this puppy is the best example of his/her breed it can possibly be, but are asking for no Guarantees in return? Not even that they wont breed Dysplastic or unhealthy stock? Have you ever tried enforcing a Verbal contract? its a lot more difficult than enforcing a written one, at least there it clearly states what is expected of the buyer. That contract is for both Parties, not just the breeder, and not just the buyer. Is it too much that after putting hours, months, even years into planning and raising a litter, we ask that they not Backtrack on what our breeding produced? No...its not.

to everyone who says "I dont sell to someone I dont trust" Good for you (neither do I), but there are situations, especially when personalities collide that a contract is best.

Another good reason for my contract is to weed out those people who want to get into dogs for "The Money" they certainly arent doing it with my stock. My contract is clear, efficient, and nothing more than what I would be willing to buy a puppy under, sure If I build a good relationship with a potential buyer I may alter the contract, but I have a few Points I stick to. I have my contract posted on my site for all to see, and if it is a referall, the first thing they get is a contract via E-mail.

As for Limited contracts, I (and most non-uppidy breeders) are happy to sell a puppy for full Reg. As long as that is expressed up fornt, that way I can assist in finding the best match for the buyer, and the dog. If a Pet is all thats wanted I sell on a limited Registration, at a discounted price with full disclosure, and a spay/neuter agreement.

I know not everyone agrees, and I am okay with that , I just wanted to put my .02 in on this subject...

Briar, I would suggest doing what feels right, if you feel a contract gets your expectations across to the buyer, do it. If you feel that a contract is not neccessary go ahead too.

Happy Holidays
Arctic

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:12 am

thanks for the input everyone I will give it some more thought.

LBH · Post by **LBH** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:57 am

briarpatch wrote:
LBH your getting rediculous now , it clearly states the dog can be kept on a chain at an event , it also clearly states the dog cannot live on a chain..
Sorry I dont raise or breed my dogs to live on chains , if thats something anyone is looking for they can look for another breeder..

It's not me being ridiculous, that is what the contract said. It stated the dog is to not be on the chain for more than a couple hours. There's no way you can re enforce that, why even have it?