Dog Fights

[birddogger]

I am really surprised that experience dog trainers would advocate or defend severe punishment or hanging as training methods to use on valuable hunting dogs, especially to eliminate a problem that can be easily avoided. I guess you've never been around pro trainer much then. Have you? You have alot to learn and alot of pros. Not all of them but more than you'll ever find out. I've watched it and it scares me to think they're susposed to be training dogs. But sometimes you have to get a point across.

It is not severe or a training method. It is simply stopping a potentially serious problem quickly and without injury. It may or may not need to be repeated a time or two, but it will work. Cutting a dog's air off for a few seconds to end a violent behavior is not inhumane.

Charlie

[birddogger]

I intentionally stepped around this post several times until I seen it had gone on long enough, & unfortunately, I gave in.

It is blatently evident that there are a couple of people on here who HAVE NO CLUE WHATSOEVER on what to do with an aggressive birddog. Also there seems to be some SERIOUS denial issues as well. You need to get real, before someone or something gets hurt, badly.

It boils my blood and sickens my gut to hear someone post about a serious behavioral problem with dogs, and then minimize it because its something they don't want to hear. Even more so to hear someone call the proper behavior modification techniques "animal abuse/inhumane/etc"

If you don't like what I have to say, that's fine, but I HAVE BEEN THERE, Dealt with it, and consequently paid the ultimate price for it.

Ignorance is NOT bliss.

AMEN!!!

Charlie

[Chukar12]

I feel like you have been given some good advice, whether you can decipher it is another story. Emotion in a few posts has brought out some conjecture and apparently some generation bias. Stopping them is probably a matter of timing, repetition and wanting to stop them. Bring them together on lead and at the first sign of aggression, ear drop, head drop, tail up or down, etc.... Lift them off the ground with your leash and spin them 360 degrees. Lead them away come back and do it again until they submit. Then don't ignore the problem....if you see it further start over more aggressively. If you cannot get it stopped seek a pro.

[prairiefirepointers]

The only time either of these dogs fight, is with each other. Both are out of great bloodline, good hunters etc. They're great dogs but for whatever reason they don't seem to agree with each other. They've never shown any aggression towards another creature other than each other. I don't know whether either of these dogs will be used to breed, but I didn't know that if a dog gets in a fight, it shouldn't be used for breeding. I'd rather just get it resolved.

If they detest each other enough, or even if one dog is passive agressive and the other is the instigator always looking for a fight, you've got a potentially serious situation on your hands. This is the way my 2 females were. My brood bitch I have now is a sweetheart and would only fight if attacked. The other dog was fine around every other male or female she ever was around. She just had a hardwired hatred for the other dog.

Let me simplify things for you. Pictured left to right is "Jenny" who was attacked twice by "Brownie" pictured to the right. Below is the results of the second attack. If this doesn't get your attention, nothing will.

[ISAYWHOANOW]

It looks as if these two dogs have been able to fight to many times without consequence. Good luck. I CAN PROMISE YOU MY DOGS WILL SUBMIT RIGHT AWAY. I ALSO CAN PROMISE YOU THE OTHER DOG NO MATTER WHO IT IS WILL BE EITHER IN ITS DOG BOX OR DEALT WITH ACCORDINGLY INSTANTLY! I don't mess with fighting dogs. There's a place in heaven for them.

Trial dogs to boot huh? Prairie we were typing at the same time. Serious business.

[JKP]

WOW!!...and all this time I thought it was only my DD that were aggressive. Important to note (and I didn't read every word here, so excuse if it has been mentioned) that aggressive behavior has a high inheritability index according to Cornell Univ. studies, higher than many other traits. Don't base a breeding program on problem dogs.

The only time either of these dogs fight, is with each other.

IMO...this is almost never the case. It is just a matter of time until a dog with history will do it again. To me such dogs can never be trusted...you want to, but you really can't. I put them down...not responsible to sell then even if you disclose it...and they are too big a liability to keep.

I have 2 DD brood bitches and both will go out of their way to avoid confrontation...that's what I want...when they get pushed too far, all heck breaks loose...and I will still put them in the dirt....the understanding being I don't want that. Feral cats they can "play" with

[dudleysmith]

the fear of the shovel is greater than any hatered for another dog...i have not EVER saw one i cant stop it in. you stop it as a pup it wont ever continue, the problem is most wont stop it then...

[ACooper]

the problem is most wont stop it then...

People choose to believe it will go away on its own, OR the dog will grow out of it. Most of the time it gets far worse as time goes by.

[ACooper]

My dog doesn't fight and isn't a problem. My cable doesn't carry his show. Don't know if I agree with him or not. I don't believe he advocates using pain to train a dog

Well he advocates restricting a dogs air flow to help stop aggression toward people and other dogs.

[Birddogz]

the problem is most wont stop it then...

People choose to believe it will go away on its own, OR the dog will grow out of it. Most of the time it gets far worse as time goes by.

Far worse. NIP IT NOW!!!!!

[kensfishing]

I am really surprised that experience dog trainers would advocate or defend severe punishment or hanging as training methods to use on valuable hunting dogs, especially to eliminate a problem that can be easily avoided. I guess you've never been around pro trainer much then. Have you? You have alot to learn and alot of pros. Not all of them but more than you'll ever find out. I've watched it and it scares me to think they're susposed to be training dogs. But sometimes you have to get a point across.

I was trying to quote the problem with being passive. Pros are not. I can't and won't own an aggressive dog. There are way to many ways to deal with it. One bullet and the other is not to hunt them together, ever. Friends or no friends dog fights cannot be tolerated.

[CowboyBirdDogs]

Well we hunted today and they got into it again. The cause of this is, for whatever reason, it seems that my dog is fearful or insecure when the other dog is around. He wants him no where near him. When he first saw the other dog today he ran towards me and reared up on me. The other dog just walked over with no bad intentions whatsoever. My dog growled and backed up and it was on, it ended with my dog pinning the other one. We seperated them, pinned them, and them gave them some time to themselves. Then we brought them out on leashes towards one another, the other dog was fine and really wanted nothing to do with the situation. Mine stood there literally shivering, slightly growling, every time he growled he was disciplined. He finally stopped and was ok. We loaded them to hunt another area and later in the day my dog would slightly growl while in his dog box. I didn't hunt him the rest of the day. I guess we will keep the course and continue to give them controlled encounters with discipline coming when there is any sign of aggression. Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest on here! Sorry!

[Cajun Casey]

I'd have your boy checked for tick borne illnesses, just to be on the safe side. They can cause that kind of behavior. So can heartworm infection. Good luck.

[ezzy333]

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest on here! Sorry!ElectricShorthairs

Don't be sorry. You gave several people who have encountered the problem before a chance to educate some younger owners. Lets just hope they can accept was was told them and it saves them some serious problems. And hopefully you can get yours straighten out also. I think your dog is frightewned and is trying to protect itself by getting in the first lick. That maybe had to overcome as it is a form of fear biting.

Ezzy

[ISAYWHOANOW]

Your dog reared up on you?? And then you let your dog pin the other on the ground>??? Good luck with your dog. you'll be hunting alone before you know it.

You did say trial dog right???

Editted by Ezzy to remove some unnecessary flamitory remarks.

[bowhunter1221975]

Neither one will be nuetered? Is that because your planning on breeding them down the line? Why would you breed a fighter? Guess that would be one more litter out of two dogs breeding with no regard to genetics, temperament, biddability, conformation, etc. Good luck...... :roll:

i agree but IMO

[Buckeye_V]

Wow. I have been following this thread and sitting here just shaking my head. Every trainer I know, Pro or otherwise would be nipping this thing in the bud and FAST. I do not pretend to be an expert, but I have been around a few dogs and a few really good trainers. I've seen the results of not acting quickly and decisively enough. I have had to protect my dog from dogs who had bad intentions. That dog (or dogs) is fixable. You just have to be ready and willing to make the move when it happens.

You have gotten good advice here (for the most part). You did the right thing after getting that advice. Now what you need to do is watch your dog's body language and correct him before it escalates into the fight. He's sending some signals that you aren't catching. They may be very subtle, but if you know your dog you can read them.

You did the right thing by asking for advice. Just filter out what makes sense to you.

For the jokers who don't think physical action is warranted, have you ever watched a dog pack interact and correct a dog who crosses the line?

[phermes1]

If any of my dogs stir up trouble, they get their butts kicked. Plain and simple.
IMHO, I think cutting off the air supply is an excellent way of getting your point across without causing unnecessary or permanent damage to the animal.


You are not going to fix an aggressive dog with sugar cookies and squeakie toys.

[proudag08]

You are not going to fix an aggressive dog with sugar cookies and squeakie toys.

HA HA HA Nice one...

+1

[bowhunter1221975]

i am no expert with bird dogs by no means but i have been around dogs my whole life in one way or another weather it be rabbit dogs coon dogs and even a hog dog or two now i have ep i have had dogs that would just as soon fight as hunt and some that pick one dog and one dog only to fight with the one sure way i found to fix the problem quick and i meen quick is to string them up if you dont like that then you can make sure that both dogs have training collers on turn the coller to MAX as soon as they brissle growl hold the i messed up button nnock them on there buts then put them on lead or chain gang for a short time to think about what just happened try again if they even look at each other out of place REPEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DougB]

If any of my dogs stir up trouble, they get their butts kicked. Plain and simple.
IMHO, I think cutting off the air supply is an excellent way of getting your point across without causing unnecessary or permanent damage to the animal.


You are not going to fix an aggressive dog with sugar cookies and squeakie toys.

Not when the dog is stressed and ready to fight. A dog ready to fight is not mentally prepared to learn anything. There is a difference between training a behavior and suppressing a behavior. If all you want to do is suppress aggression, work the dog over, It will learn that if it is aggressive when you are around, it will be hurt. It will stop fighting when you are around.

Apparently we have a serious philosophical difference about dog training methods, with Ceasar Millan being referred to as an authority who uses choking and dominance rolling a dog. Millan has a successful show. I- its on TV. He can refilm until he gets what he wants 2-There are as many experts who refute his methods as being cruel and only effective short term as there are who believe he is right. The following url leads to a criticism of his methods. It is a good read and something to think about. http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm.

I don't expect any of you to change your training methods. They work for you and you are happy with the results, or you would change. But there are other ways to teach dogs that work too. Different is not automatically wrong.

MY suggestions had to do with avoiding the situation (removing the dog from stress) and training new behaviors. If the dogs fight each other every time they meet, why expect any other behavior from them if you haven't taken the time to teach proper behavior. Why don't they know that when the leash is off, the hunt starts. After a few times, it isn't the dogs fault. It's the trainer. If they are good dogs, take the time to teach them how to behave. Nobody even really knows why these two dogs fight.

A comment was made about my beliefs being something to do with a generation difference in thinking. As I am probably older than most of you, this is a mistaken assumption. I've worked with some trainers, some dogs, and read some books, shot a few birds over dogs.

I think this conversation has gotten too heated to be productive. My fault. I used the wrong euphemisms to describe hitting and hanging out to dry. I am going to go shovel snow off my roof.

[Elkhunter]

I have a GSP that will fight if instigated, which makes it a pain in the butt when I hunt with other peoples dogs that he does not know. Last time he got into it with another dog I went after him till he thought he was gonna die. That has been almost 2 years and no problems, I cant have him around aggressive dogs though cause he fights if they posture him. And it happens fast!

[Buckeye_V]

Per the last poster, you should just avoid hunting with other dogs. That would be better.

[CowboyBirdDogs]

I'm positive that he is acting on pure fear. I tried the hanging him up method. It worked pretty good, the only problem is he just gets more scared. He's a good dog that just needs more exposure to the world. I have taken him to field trials just to watch other dogs and see how it all works and he walked around at least a hundred dogs and never had a problem with any of them. Another friend that I hunt with has an 11 year old GSP and a 7 year old GSP, both males, and he plays with them all day. He just gets very fearful around this one dog apparently. When we are standing there with leashes on them both they're fine, he shakes uncontrollably but they don't fight. The problem is transitioning that into the field with no leashes and we aren't there right next to them. It'd be easy to just give him or sell him away, but I like him and I think he has potential to be a good bird dog. If I have to I'll get rid of him but only as a last resort.

[Buckeye_V]

I'll probably get chastised here for this, but if you have an e-collar strap it on and take to the field. Crank it up. If he makes any kind of move toward that dog, then lay him down. Don't say a word. Just juice him. Ignore him when he shakes. You can fix this.

[DougB]

I'm positive that he is acting on pure fear. I tried the hanging him up method. It worked pretty good, the only problem is he just gets more scared.

The dog has just learned to be more afraid. Pain will not remove the fear. Avoid the other dog until you can work on your dog-obedience training or NILIF to get control with out using force. If everytime he sees this one dog, he gets hurt, he is going to get more and more afraid of seeing that dog.

He just gets very fearful around this one dog apparently. When we are standing there with leashes on them both they're fine, he shakes uncontrollably but they don't fight

If he is shaking when he sees the other dog, he is afraid, he is not okay. Avoid the other dog, or sell yours.
http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression- ... html#avoid This is a web site that talks about dog aggression.
Their first piece of advice is "avoid the situation". They go on to say "Avoid physical punishment of any kind. Local pain caused by pinch collars, hitting, or shock collars (electric) can increase aggression in dominantly aggressive dogs. Shock collars should only be used in extreme circumstances,in the absence of other solutions, as part of an involved behavior modification.[2] They require training with an expert to be used properly.
.
If you keep working these two together without getting past your dogs fear, then punish your dog, your dog will shut down.

[CowboyBirdDogs]

What would cause him to fear this one dog, who has never tried to start anything or bully him?

[kninebirddog]

I'm positive that he is acting on pure fear. I tried the hanging him up method. It worked pretty good, the only problem is he just gets more scared. He's a good dog that just needs more exposure to the world. I have taken him to field trials just to watch other dogs and see how it all works and he walked around at least a hundred dogs and never had a problem with any of them. Another friend that I hunt with has an 11 year old GSP and a 7 year old GSP, both males, and he plays with them all day. He just gets very fearful around this one dog apparently. When we are standing there with leashes on them both they're fine, he shakes uncontrollably but they don't fight. The problem is transitioning that into the field with no leashes and we aren't there right next to them. It'd be easy to just give him or sell him away, but I like him and I think he has potential to be a good bird dog. If I have to I'll get rid of him but only as a last resort.

I have used Cesar Milans Method The Dog Whisperer of laying a dog down on it's side and kinda pinning them and holding them until they relax about the other dog being near them..it isn't about choking a dog but you do need to hold the head and lower area down to keep them there. I had a dog in that was real bad about running his chest into another dog when you first released him into the field. After a few times he stopped the chesting of the other dog.

Another thing is putting the dog on some good leads and walking them around and every time they divert their attention off of you give a quick and abrupt little redirect of the attention to be back on you. Keep doing this till the dogs forget each other Sometimes that ca help

Then sometimes just like in People there isn't anything you are going to do to stop the two from getting into fights

but you really do need to deal with the aggressor as if your dog is only defending himself then your corrections can make it worse for him.

As for e collars there is only a few rare occasions where I will resort to that as with some dogs it can cause far more issues then the idea is worth.. I have seen where a guy strapped collars on his two fighters and when he hit the button when the dogs made eye contact and started to head for each other He began to juice the dogs on the highest setting his collar had and when he did that the dog charged at each other yelping at the same time and commenced to get into a fight which once some shovels were brought into break up the fight this one landed both dogs at the vets to get stitched back up.

PS For what it is worth There are some GSP's which just have a nasty attitude...I get to see this in quite a few GSP's here in AZ they older they got the worse they got also..One guy his sweet your GSP turned into a very Nasty older dog and the dog she grew up this female turned on her one day and they had to separate her after that.
Another guy brought his young dog to a trial that dog bit 2 people and growled at everything that came by


Then YES there is another thing is maybe there is something physically wrong with one of the dogs Thyroid or HD or is one of the dogs cryptoid if so this can also cause a dog to be Grouchy in attitude