Training gimmicks...

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Who thinks theses gimmicks are a must for training dogs ie launchers, backing dummy, etc. When I first joined this forum and still today it is very highly recommend by several on this bored that you need these devices. The longer I train and more people I train with the more it seems to me these devices are a phony way to train a dog. I have yet to train with a pro that uses such devices. It seems to me it is more of an amateurs mind frame that you MUST have these things. Am on to something here? What does everything think? Personally I own an e collar and that is the only electronic dog training device I own.

[Neil]

Rob,

I don't use them either, but I can see where if you only had one dog and trained alone they might have some limited value.

I don't like the launchers with young dogs and don't need them for older dogs that must learn to let me flush the birds no matter how long it takes. And I find that running two dogs in a bird field having them back one another works better than the backing dummy.

You thinking they are some marketing ploy by the manufactures?

Neil

[tommyboy72]

I like to train on wild birds but may purchase some pen raised birds to train on this spring and summer but I sold my launchers before I ever used them and usually run my young dog with my older dogs to help train as well. I think you are right about them being gimmicks. Technologically they serve a purpose but I don't think they are necessities. An ecollar is the only electronic device I use as well. I know the Astro is the latest craze but I personally prefer to keep my dogs in plain sight which is pretty easy to do where I live since it is so flat and open out here. My dogs run big but I can see them for miles out here. To me the Garmin seems like a way to sit at the truck and turn out the dogs and stay warm till the dog goes on point.

[birdshot]

i am definetly an amatuer so maybe that explains why i like having a bird launcher which allows me to completely control the flush. no caught birds with the launcher. dog learns he can't creep up. i would rather work on prairie chickens, but do not have access to chickens year round.

[twofeathers]

E-collar, CC and birds. While I can see a professional trainer, training multiple dogs in a short period of time may need the toys. Training my own I have time on my side. I think some of the best training for a young dog are the birds themselves. Even dragonflies ended up being a training "tool" as they would hold if he did and take off if he crept. When Pull was a pup watched him point a dragonfly at Ringneck Marsh for nearly two minutes. These dogs were able to be broke way before the e-collar,e-launchers and e-backers. Now we have E-Broke dogs. I Jest.

[Birddog3412]

Who thinks theses gimmicks are a must for training dogs ie launchers, backing dummy, etc. When I first joined this forum and still today it is very highly recommend by several on this bored that you need these devices. The longer I train and more people I train with the more it seems to me these devices are a phony way to train a dog. I have yet to train with a pro that uses such devices. It seems to me it is more of an amateurs mind frame that you MUST have these things. Am on to something here? What does everything think? Personally I own an e collar and that is the only electronic dog training device I own.

Obviously you can train a dog without all the extra thing including an e collar. Do you use a manual launcher or a backing sillouette?

[rkappes]

I was just thinking about getting a launcher.....dumb idea?

[djloder]

[quote="Brushbustin Sporting Dogs"] I have yet to train with a pro that uses such devices. It seems to me it is more of an amateurs mind frame that you MUST have these things. [quote]

Every pro trainer I have seen has used or has a bird launchers, you must be hanging out with the same one's to not see a pro trainer with bird launcher. I have one and only used it when he was a young pup and it still looks new. Sure you don’t need these devices to train a bird dog but you don’t need a cell phone either, they just help to make things easier/convenient. When you train alone or what to know what is going to happen when that bird fly’s a bird launcher is a great tool to have. Some people don't what to use technology or just can't keep up with it any maybe that’s why they don't use them.

Hey but I'm a marketing major and maybe i just believe the hype.


Tommyboy,
"To me the Garmin seems like a way to sit at the truck and turn out the dogs and stay warm till the dog goes on point. :lol"

It also shows you how far you pup has ran, his speed and how many points he had. You can also see how your pup ran as I like know if my dog was quartering. I also like to mark my points of interest as where i have see birds. I know my Gramin wont scare a grouse like a bell might.

[Blue Briar]

I use launchers consistently with my young dogs and I feel they are a great tool. The remote backer on the other hand,I have used and it works but I would much rather go and train with someone to work on backing than use it.

[ezzy333]

All of the modern tools are nice but not really necessary. But they do have a purpose and work quite well. In my mind the determining factor os can you afford them. And it is not a bad thing if the answer is no. It bothers me that we have so many people tell the newbees they have to have all of this equipment, plus an expensive gun and feed the most expensive feed. None of it is true but strictly an extra that does help get some of the jobs done but very very hard to justify for one or even two hunting dogs.

Ezzy

[bowhunter1221975]

All of the modern tools are nice but not really necessary. But they do have a purpose and work quite well. In my mind the determining factor os can you afford them. And it is not a bad thing if the answer is no. It bothers me that we have so many people tell the newbees they have to have all of this equipment, plus an expensive gun and feed the most expensive feed. None of it is true but strictly an extra that does help get some of the jobs done but very very hard to justify for one or even two hunting dogs.

Ezzy

AMEN

[kninebirddog]

We have launchers..They are great when you need to have some controlled situations where you need a bird to stay put or launch for a wild flush which working a dog through some super hyper drive and work at taking the chase out.

Sure one does not Have to have them..but for some dogs those gimmicks sure can make the difference in bringing them along

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

The point I was trying to get at I think Ezzy came the closest. We have all these new people get on here and ask "now what" and the consensus is for them to go spend 500 dollars on launchers. They could build two johnny houses and fill them full of quail for that money and I feel they would be better ahead! I thought I'd be good to do this thread and teach that you don't need this expensive gimmicks to train dogs. I've broke my last two without them and I'm sure there has been more dogs broke without the help of launchers than there has been with the help of them.

[ACooper]

The point I was trying to get at I think Ezzy came the closest. We have all these new people get on here and ask "now what" and the consensus is for them to go spend 500 dollars on launchers. They could build two johnny houses and fill them full of quail for that money and I feel they would be better ahead! I thought I'd be good to do this thread and teach that you don't need this expensive gimmicks to train dogs. I've broke my last two without them and I'm sure there has been more dogs broke without the help of launchers than there has been with the help of them.

I don't see launchers and backing dogs as "gimmicks", to me a "gimmick" is something like the buddy stick, But I also agree that you don't have to have them but they can be very helpful for many things. I have lost the checkcord and use the launchers for puppies to work on staunchness.

[RayGubernat]

There are all manner of "gimimicks" and they come in all price ranges. A clicker is a gimmick also, as is a "wonder lead". So is a JASA Pinch collar or HermSprenger Prong collar, so is a bench, barrel or whoa post. Depending on how you train you don't need any of that stuff. But some of it definitely does make it easier to convey your meaning to the dog with less pressure. There is always someone out there who will say all you need is wild birds and that is not wrong.

First let me say that as far as "expensive" gimmicks are concerned, when you train with pigeons, remote launchers can really help. If you are in the process of breaking a dog, remote launchers can indeed make the job easier. That is where I use them the most and that is for a very short, but critical time in the dog's development. Most of the time, they just sit there. They canalso come in very handy if you do "stop to flush" type training.

My backing dummy is a plywood cutout that I painted. I use that too. Most pros have at least a couple of steady dogs, so they don't need an autobacker. They have several in the kennel walking around.

I do not train with pros but I would bet real money that if I asked all the pros in my area if they owned remote release traps, just about all would say, yes they do because they all train with pigeons and libbies.

If there is an easier, faster, lower pressure method for getting to a finished dog the pro will almost always go that way.

RayG

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

I am honest that I know of very few big time pros that use launchers. I trained with a pro all summer and he doesn't believe in handling the birds while training says its too phony to the dog, and this is one of the most successful Brittany FT pros ever. I can think of a few guys that were amateurs not long ago that use them but it diffenatly a sign of the times. Just sayin is all. It's been a good topic thus far I hope we keep it going! Do you think it's better for the person that doesnt have a lot of room to train? I have the luxury of training out my back door and maybe that's why I dont see the use for these things.

[Greg Jennings]

The right tool for the job in the situation that you have to work with...

[kninebirddog]

Well where most people live and what they have access to ..if you don't used pen raised birds and gimmicks you won't have a bird dog period.
We can't use a johnny house letting birds come and go as they please..the coyotes hawks foxes and lack of proper cover makes it that way we are in the desert
and there is not a sustainable wild population to get dogs properly trained plus the fact that we can not legally be in pursuit of native birds during closed season or you can get cited if you have a gun capable of shooting you can get a worse fine.
Even if you have a training permit you better have pen raised birds put out and the permit for the area you are training or using pigeons or again there are more things that they can cite you for.

So one has to be flexible enough to use what they have available..this is why many pros and more serious trialers go on the road if they have the resources to do such and train in those areas where they can have the ideal training situations

but many trainers who make do with what they have available there are a lot of those dogs that come out and hunt great and make their owners very happy

[prairiefirepointers]

I know I'll be purchasing a couple BL509's (DT Launcher) this upcoming year. I train all my young pups and off season "tune ups" with my seasoned dogs with PR Quail. I have had several instances when planting quail and they either flushed too early, or ran off from where they were planted. It would be nice to know that possibility has been taken out of the equasion.

As far as E-Backers, I've never ever had to think about one, because I've never had a dog or pup that didn't back naturally. Maybe I'm blessed.

I realized Tuesday after hunting in and around Bucklin Kansas on about 2800 acres of private ground, the need for a Garmin Astro. I am used to hunting in the flat, whereas there, we were in draws and canyons and I had no idea where the dogs were. Unless they were in front of me, I had no idea.. for all I knew they coulda been ranging way out in front, way behind, or way to the side. It drove me nuts! It also didn't help that 3 of the 5 people had no idea how to read or handle a bird dog. :roll: The Garmin is definately an asset and not a gimmick. I hunted with my cousin & his coon hounds Monday night and he had both his dogs "wired up" and I got to see just how nice it is having one. Also, I'm in a unique situation where I don't pay what the general public pays.. I pay my dealer cost, but even at that, its an investment for this poor guy.

Bringing a dog along in its training is tough enough and time consuming. I don't know why one would want to make it harder on themselves if they can afford not to. Like the tag line for my dog supply states: "Doesn't your dog deserve the best?"

[jason1040]

I will be getting my first GWP pup this summer and was looking at all of the things that I will be needing to purchase. From what I have been reading, some of you do not recommend e-launchers, would you suggest a manual?

[Ken Lynch]

There is an old saying…”Necessity is the mother of invention.” These devices did not come to be because some inventor sitting in a back room came up with an idea and then went out into the world to sell it. They came about because someone had a problem that could not be solved with what they currently had in hand or they wanted a quicker and easier way to do something. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to endlessly ride the open plains in search of wild birds with the hope that the lead dog goes on point so they can bring the brace mate in for a training session on backing. If the lesson does not go well, how much longer must you ride before you get the opportunity to train for the situation again? How many more dogs could you train or how many more training sessions can you achieve if you could control the unnecessary variables of the situation ( time and distance) and set up the necessary conditions (primary dog on point) for the training session more quickly?

Each person has to decide what game (field trial, hunt test, NAVHDA, hunting dog, etc.) they want to play with their dog. Then they need to figure out what specific tasks (point, retrieve, back, etc.) the dog needs to do in order to play the game. How much time do you have to train? How much space do you have to train in? How many people are available to train with? Are these people knowledgeable about training? Next look at the devices available for training and figure out which ones can be used for multiple situations encountered during the process necessary to accomplish training your dog to play the game or games you have chosen. Time and money dictate the solution.

Bottom line there in no one solution that fits all. Not even in a perfect world. You listen to all advice and pick and choose those parts that make sense to you and your situation.

[soliver]

I just bought a couple of used launchers and I am very glad I got them. I am not very good at dizzing pigeons(either too dizzy and the dog was able to catch them or they weren't dizzy enough and they flew away before I was able to get the dog brought around and down wind of them). We don't have enough wild birds in my part of Iowa to depend on them. I try and run the pup two or three times a week after work and we rarely get into any wild birds. These are working very well for me. I can control the release of the bird at the push of a button. For what I need them for they work great.
I would recommend them for anyone who has limited access to wild birds or has a limited amount of time to devote to training their bird dog. Please don't preach to me about not having time to train. A guy that works 8-10 hours a day and then has to go the the kids activities after school or on weekends has to do all the other day to day things sometimes has to squeeze in time to train. Anything that will help me get more done in the time I can devote to dog work is a good thing.

[prairiefirepointers]

never had a dog that barked and never had a dog that didnt back! you are blessed.

Never Barked?

[Cajun Casey]

Pigeons are the biggest gimmick of all.........

[Redfishkilla]

So some pro trainers don't use them so they're useless? HAHAHA. Some trainers are lucky enough to own land with call back pens and the like maybe even wild birds but most of us have limited resources. Why would I waste my first few quail hunts waiting for an untrained dog to figure out what I want? I can launch ten pigeons and have the dog already steady (not to mention cautious) and knowing what I want BEFORE I go on an actual hunt. My pup who had been around the launcher all spring and early fall pointed and held her first 5 single quail before she got curious and busted one. One. She busted one bird on the first hunt of her life (10 months) because she had been trained with the horrible launcher. In a perfect word with tons of wild birds you might not need one but in the real world they have their uses. When a newbie like me asks about training are the people who used launchers supposed to lie and not tell them how they trained their dogs? This is a place where people come for others OPINIONS about training dogs. If you disagree you can simply state that. My opinion is that launchers are a great tool in dog training. For me there’s nothing more frustrating than a pup busting a pen raised quail that flies out ten feet before being caught by the pup. Pigeons in launchers fix this problem without you having to apply too much correction to a young dog. They are a helpful tool in training but the dog still has to be put on lots of wild birds.

[Maurice]

You don't have to have any of those tools but they sure are nice. I want launchers/releasers, good checkcord, pinch collar, Tritronics ecollar and the best quail and pigeons that I can buy. You have to know how to use those so called gimmicks to not cause problems or harm. Lou Gleber had a saying about problems with the different tools. "Its not the tool its the fool using it"

Mo

[Birddog3412]

No you do not NEED all the extras but alot of them are nice. I bet 30 years ago an ecollar was thought of by some as a training gimmck!!!

You dont NEED an electric or gas heater, you could be cutting wood all year round to heat your house (some still do). just makes things easier gives you time to do other things.....like train your dogs with a bird launcher or auto backer. HAHAHA

[prairiefirepointers]

Some trainers are lucky enough to own land with call back pens and the like maybe even wild birds but most of us have limited resources.

I have access to TONS of wild birds. I use PR flight conditioned quail. First of all, I don't wana be out on my private ground messin with the wild birds in the off season. Second, You aren't supposed to be jackin with em in the first place. I believe that constitues "harrassing game" if they are out of season, but maybe I am wrong.

My opinion is that launchers are a great tool in dog training. For me there’s nothing more frustrating than a pup busting a pen raised quail that flies out ten feet before being caught by the pup.

Agreed. Although the Quail I get from a buddy of mine who has a CSA and raises em, had some great flight conditioned quail last year. Almost too good. I dizzied my first 3-4 quail till I thought my arm was gona fall off, and they busted and flew anywhere from 40-100 yards. Ended up losing a couple of em. That is why I will be getting some launchers procured by spring.

[Birddog3412]

Harrassing game is correct, not sure if it is illigal in all states though. Even if it is not, I would think people would not want to be out messing with the birds in the spring while they are brooding.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Here is my deal with what I mean by phony. You walk out in the field and leave a trail of your scent. Then you set down in the grass this object that smells of metal, plastoc, bird scent and your scent and then grab a bird pit of your bag that's on your side so now the bird smells like you. This is all phony to the dog. Doesn't anyone else see it that way. You say you wanna have the dog ready for the real deal by teaching it in a matter that is NOTHing like the real deal. I'm just trying to create good banter here but all this is the truth.

[Birddog3412]

Do you think your dog cant tell the difference between all these smells?

Your correct in alot of what you say, but it is called training, not real deal. Did you play sports in high school? You didnt just wake up one day and start playing basketball, you leaned to dribble with your strong hand, then your off hand, shoot,pass, layups etc. Thousands and Thousands of drills that were not in a real deal setting. I see this form of training as the same thing.

[prairiefirepointers]

It really doesn't matter what anyone says, or whether the subject matter is fact or fiction, or whether or not these "gimmicks" truly help or not. If you have your mind made up about them, then the point is moot. We can digress this forever, but we all have different opinions.

If you want to train without em, knock yourself out.

[redman25]

Here is my deal with what I mean by phony. You walk out in the field and leave a trail of your scent. Then you set down in the grass this object that smells of metal, plastoc, bird scent and your scent and then grab a bird pit of your bag that's on your side so now the bird smells like you. This is all phony to the dog. Doesn't anyone else see it that way. You say you wanna have the dog ready for the real deal by teaching it in a matter that is NOTHing like the real deal. I'm just trying to create good banter here but all this is the truth.

Wear rubber boots, gloves, and scent killer. We don't all have ample land to train on, nor do some have wild birds at all in some places. Pen raised birds aren't very dependable, but the only game in town to some. Launchers prevent caught birds, and they prevent the need to dizzy a bird, therefore providing a better flying bird. If I had coveys galore running everywhere I wouldn't use anything but an e collar, but it's not realistic for most.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

This is turning into a defensive thing and I'm not attacking anyone or telling anyone they are wrong. Don't badger me but yet let's give some good points. I started this as a way to teach newbies about training. Instead of attacking each other let's give help ful information. My question is if its more efficient why doesn't a pro that has 30-40 dogs on his truck use them? Let's keep this about the topic versus ganging up on me and telling me how stupid I am.

[Birddog3412]

Just because you know 1 pro who doesnt use a launcher doesnt make it wrong to use one. People do thing different, to each his own.

I have George Hickoxes DVD that I reference alot, he has probably trained more dogs this year than I will in my life. He teaches his dogs to Kennel first, I teach mine Here first.

Who is Wrong if either?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

There are alot of pros that use the so called gimmicks & some that don't.When we had wild birds here in Ohio,I guess you could say I never really trained in a sense,I just more or less went hunting.
Unfortunately that's not the case anymore so I use what you call gimmicks.

[wems2371]

I do believe, as was mentioned, that unless you're running a dog right out of the whelping box, most training tools could be considered a gimmick. Just depends on the price spent. I could do without a few of the gimmicks, and know first hand that they aren't necessary. We don't have a silver spoon here, so we've had to do things without the higher dollar "gimmicks" first.

I'll keep the launchers because I believe I can duplicate the best non-wild training scenario with them. I wish I could have a johnny house out my back door, but I live in timber, and have to drive to a neighbors unfarmable patch to train. Even if I got permission, it's not feasible to put a house there. I don't think J.H.s are realistic for most people. I'll keep the Garmin for my piece of mind, because my cover is dense, my WMAs small, and it helps me keep my mouth shut. I could sell my e-collar, for what little bit it's been used. Maybe that will change, depending on the dog or as I progress in my training experience. I like my homemade kickcages and my wonder lead.

I LOVE wild bird work, and despite our lowered bird numbers, I'm usually able to put in some legwork and get the dogs into a phez or two. It's not reliable though AND we too have a nesting season that prohibits running dogs on WMAs for several months out of every year. If I couldn't supplement wild birds with training birds, I don't know how much longer it would take me to prep a dog for the tests/trials that I like to play around with. Wild birds or even johnny houses are a big NO DUH? when I hear it, in respect to the vs planted birds. It's like saying a tomato out of your garden is better for you than one of those hydroponic pale pink thingies at the grocery store. Even if I had a terrific wild bird population or JH, I suspect I might still use the launcher for controlled training, to replicate a particular sequence or what not.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

Wems that was better thank you.

People I'm not arguing with anyone but yet some of you fell you need to be defensive and treat me as if I'm a moron. This is a simple educational debate I thought would be fun but as everyother thread people start to feel threatened and get defensive. I could care less how any of you train your dogs.... Its not about my way or your way its about teaching people the ends and outs of things.

To many times have I seen..."my dog is doing such and such...I'm new to dog training..." and the first response this poster gets is to go spend several hundred dollars on launchers that honestly he/her will use a handful of times if they oly have one dog. I wanted to educate that there are other ways and in my eyes better ways than launchers.

I do not know just one person that doesn't use launchers I do not know of a brittany professional that uses them and local friends/ trainers it seems to not be the norm either.

I want to know why you all say its more efficient to use them but then the big time trainers who train several dogs don't use them?? If is more effiecent had you had several dogs to break wouldn't you want to use launchers versus the ole crummy Johnny House??

Again this isn't about me or about being right or wrong...Keep it informative

[Redfishkilla]

"I want to know why you all say its more efficient to use them but then the big time trainers who train several dogs don't use them?? "

Well we might need to know how the "big time trainers" train dogs without them. Do they basically teach and enforce whoa? Do they use wild birds or strong flying pen raised birds? There's more than a few ways to train one. How can anyone answer your question without knowing more?

The reason people say they are efficient is because they believe it, as do I. I can teach a dog to hold steady, without the use of the “whoa” command, with about ten pigeons out of a launcher. It might take two or three days of hunting to get the right situations that I can reproduce in an hour with a launcher. They're not gimmicks, they're equipment. How does the “big time trainer” train his dogs? Yard work but then does he train on pen raised birds? A dog exclusively trained on pen raised birds will crowd their first wild birds. If a bird launcher is a “gimmick” so is a pen raised bird.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

"I want to know why you all say its more efficient to use them but then the big time trainers who train several dogs don't use them?? "

Well we might need to know how the "big time trainers" train dogs without them. Do they basically teach and enforce whoa? Do they use wild birds or strong flying pen raised birds? There's more than a few ways to train one. How can anyone answer your question without knowing more?

The reason people say they are efficient is because they believe it, as do I. I can teach a dog to hold steady, without the use of the “whoa” command, with about ten pigeons out of a launcher. It might take two or three days of hunting to get the right situations that I can reproduce in an hour with a launcher. They're not gimmicks, they're equipment. How does the “big time trainer” train his dogs? Yard work but then does he train on pen raised birds? A dog exclusively trained on pen raised birds will crowd their first wild birds. If a bird launcher is a “gimmick” so is a pen raised bird.

You my friend I will not address cause your looking for an argument and I'll leave it at that.

[prairiefirepointers]

This is a simple educational debate I thought would be fun but as everyother thread people start to feel threatened and get defensive.

If this threads sole purpose is to be an educational debate, and you started it, I say get to educating us. Perhaps you should compile a dissertation with regards to "Gimmicky/Phoney training" Versus "The Real Deal" ?

I am far from being a Pro trainer, Nor do most of us have such an extensive repertoire of Pro Trainers to learn from, so I think we'd all be delighted to learn. I like to think of myself as not being narrow minded, so I would love to read it and see what knowledge I can glean from it.

[redman25]

"I want to know why you all say its more efficient to use them but then the big time trainers who train several dogs don't use them?? "

Well we might need to know how the "big time trainers" train dogs without them. Do they basically teach and enforce whoa? Do they use wild birds or strong flying pen raised birds? There's more than a few ways to train one. How can anyone answer your question without knowing more?

The reason people say they are efficient is because they believe it, as do I. I can teach a dog to hold steady, without the use of the “whoa” command, with about ten pigeons out of a launcher. It might take two or three days of hunting to get the right situations that I can reproduce in an hour with a launcher. They're not gimmicks, they're equipment. How does the “big time trainer” train his dogs? Yard work but then does he train on pen raised birds? A dog exclusively trained on pen raised birds will crowd their first wild birds. If a bird launcher is a “gimmick” so is a pen raised bird.

You my friend I will not address cause your looking for an argument and I'll leave it at that.

It might be somewhat argumentative, but you've pretty much dismissed every reason given as to why some "trainers" use these pieces of equipment, without giving very many examples as to the "proper" way to do things. Just saying....I'm very open to advice.

[Birddog 307]

Rob I use a checkcord,pinch collar,ecollar and remote launcher and pigeons. What I have found that works the best for me in regards to the launchers is you can start the breaking process and control the flush. Once I have a dog standing the launchers and shooting I can do alot of teasing and throwing other pigeons to help the steady process along. The dogs figure it out pretty quick that it is a game and I go to great lengths to not let them track me in to the launchers but sometimes they do. The knowledge that the dog learns from the launcher though is transfered very quickily to wild birds. For me I can work them with launchers for a couple of weeks and then go to wildbirds. Wild birds is where the real knowledge begins. The more birds and different species of birds the better. Good birddogs figure it out if they are tracking a running rooster or pointing a bunch of late season sharpies. Also I can teach backing and stop to flush very quickly with launchers. For a new person with one dog should they spend money on them? Maybe they would be better off spending that money and send their dog to a pro. It just depends on the person and what they want out of their dog.
Birddog 307

[dan v]

Crikees!

I don't know alot of pros, but the ones I do know use remote launchers, they use e-collars, they use leather pinch collars. I'd like to think they're successful. And some of them have plenty of access to wild birds.

[proudag08]

I feel like I am in a unique position as the "over zealous newbie that annoys the crap out of everyone" (self given nick name). So I will give my input from the perspective of your target audience.

It seems to me that there are two different camps here. The ones that have access to wild birds and those that dont. In the majority of the posts here is the phrase "well if I had access to wild birds...". So that tells me that if there is access to wild birds launchers might not be the way to go but then again, there is the nesting period and you cant just train during hunting season, there has to be something in the off-season.

From there I think you can seperate it even further. With the people that have the access, some have the time and resources to build a flight pen/ johnny house etc and some dont. Witht the people that dont have access to the wild birds you have the same two categories. Within these segments are where the "gimmicks" come into play IMHO.

A person without access to wild birds and without the resources for supplying strong flying birds (one end of the spectrum) needs to be productive with the birds he does get a hold of whenever he can, therefore, he needs to use the launcher to produce a controlled situation to most effectively make use of his time. Someone who has access to wild birds (the other end of the spectrum) all the time does not choose to use the "gimmick" because he's got the real thing. If he used the launcher he wouldnt be taking advantage of the resources he has. Everyone else falls somewhere on this line and from there it is a matter of preference and your own special concoction.

Now with the other "gimmicks" (E-collar, Gramin, barrells, backing dummy) I think those can be analized the same way, however it depends on the person and thier set of circumstances.

Go with me for a minute. Lets say that a field trial is the World Cup and all the different handlers are the different countries (dibs on America bc we are awesome ). Just because North Korea was forced to practice soccer with a metal ball in -20 temps, and the Dutch practiced in wooden shoes, while Brazil had to play barefooted on the hot sand, while America got to practice in the mountains of Colorado with all the luxeries doesnt mean that they all didnt compete at the highest level. They all trained according to their surroundings and with their given resources taking full advantage of the circumstances around them. All different methods and "gimmicks" were used but all were trained to do the same thing.

So as someone that this thread is geared towards, you have made your point... Should I use the "gimicks"? The answer I get from this thread... "It depends..."

[kensfishing]

Wems that was better thank you.

People I'm not arguing with anyone but yet some of you fell you need to be defensive and treat me as if I'm a moron. This is a simple educational debate I thought would be fun but as everyother thread people start to feel threatened and get defensive. I could care less how any of you train your dogs.... Its not about my way or your way its about teaching people the ends and outs of things.

To many times have I seen..."my dog is doing such and such...I'm new to dog training..." and the first response this poster gets is to go spend several hundred dollars on launchers that honestly he/her will use a handful of times if they oly have one dog. I wanted to educate that there are other ways and in my eyes better ways than launchers.

I do not know just one person that doesn't use launchers I do not know of a brittany professional that uses them and local friends/ trainers it seems to not be the norm either.

I want to know why you all say its more efficient to use them but then the big time trainers who train several dogs don't use them?? If is more effiecent had you had several dogs to break wouldn't you want to use launchers versus the ole crummy Johnny House??

Again this isn't about me or about being right or wrong...Keep it informative

Do you think for one minute that brittanies are the only pointing dog on this earth, or they are the only pros on this earth that trains dogs? If I had the land you have to use I won't use any gimmicks. Yea right.

[BoJack]

I used to be Old School and trained that way for years,but not anymore.I call most of the new training things today Training Tools.A Necessity? No,but sure makes training go quicker and smoother.Epsecially when you work dogs by yourself,and with the lack of native birds is most parts of the Country.Can't see using methods anymore that takes longer when you can get things done quicker and spend more time hunting behind or trialing your dogs then training them.I think launchers would be especially helpful to new people just starting with a dog,if and when thay can afford them.I used manual launchers for 4 years until I could afford the remote ones.Anyone can still train(and some still do)the Old School ways if that's what they choose.I bet if you could do a national survey that 90% of the pros today use launchers in parts of their training.

[Birddog3412]

For the sake of this thread lets say the definition of the work "Gimmick" is:

An unneeded device used to train a hunting dog!


Then how can we call a bird launcher a gimmick yet an ecollar is not?

[birddogger]

If it gets results for you, and you can afford it, use it. I don't have launchers because of the cost, but there are times when I wish I had them. I have never needed a backing dummy, but nothing wrong with that either. I agree with Brushbusting that a beginner should not be led to believe that these things are necessities, because they are not, but they sure can come in handy, especially when you run into certain problems. I believe K9 eluded to this when she said "for some dogs".

I use e-collars because they are the best investment in training tools I have ever made. They are not necessities either but they sure make life easier. Now days, most of us don't have access to that many wild birds to train on and you can't train all year with them anyway. That being said, wild birds are not the answer to everything. There are times when you need controlled situations. I know this from experience, but you don't have to invest thousands of dollars to accomplish it.

Anyway, great thread,
Charlie

[prairiefirepointers]

At some point man was hunting game without dogs. So does that make the inception of the "bird dog" a "Gimmick" for hunters?