Friendly Argument - Need Input
- SD Pheasant Slayer
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Friendly Argument - Need Input
A friend and I are in a friendly debate regarding general range among the gun dog breeds. The issue stems from our discussion of wanting (or not wanting) a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west. The question is simple, which breed is "generally" bigger running - Setters or Shorthairs? We both understand that there are exceptions and we aren't interested in which breed is "better." Just simply, which breed is going to cover more ground (independent of training, owner preference, or any other variables) in the wide open prairies? Pointer people - yes, we know you're dogs run the biggest, remain calm . I can't seem to find a source to "prove" my argument, which for the sake of fair bet settlement, I'll save for later. I figured this forum was the best proof I could come up with.
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Generally speaking, setters.
Chris E. Kroll
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Ha ha ha haSD Pheasant Slayer wrote:I can't seem to find a source to "prove" my argument, which for the sake of fair bet settlement, I'll save for later.
Nice avatar by the way...
- PntrRookie
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
"Generally" Setters
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- ymepointer
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.
My vote...Setters
My vote...Setters
- SD Pheasant Slayer
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Thank you, Gentlemen. Your input is appreciated and the debate is settled
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- Wagonmaster
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
No way! Shorthairs for sure. Don't take the word of a couple of setter guys.
The reality is that there is a very broad range of "ranges" in both breeds. There have been a small number of horseback setters that can range with the pointers on a good day, but that is a small number. We have an at least equal number of true AA dogs in the shorthair breed. There are also lots of close working dogs in both breeds.
If you were to average them all out, the breeds are a horse apiece in terms of average range.
The reality is that there is a very broad range of "ranges" in both breeds. There have been a small number of horseback setters that can range with the pointers on a good day, but that is a small number. We have an at least equal number of true AA dogs in the shorthair breed. There are also lots of close working dogs in both breeds.
If you were to average them all out, the breeds are a horse apiece in terms of average range.
Last edited by Wagonmaster on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Wagonmaster called it.
It's THE INDIVIDUAL DOG.
Should be fun watching this thread progress, though.
This is, after all, a discussion forum, right?
It's THE INDIVIDUAL DOG.
Should be fun watching this thread progress, though.
This is, after all, a discussion forum, right?
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Definetly the individual dog...Hunting dogs in general should adjust to the spaces they run in tho.......I know Fritz is a dot in the distance in Dakotas....He goes til he finds birds...
brenda
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
All breed praire AA Championships? Besides NGPDA-(not really prairies), what all breed praire AA Championships are there and how many shorthairs run in them?ymepointer wrote:While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.
My vote...Setters
6xCH, 2xRU CH FC Alpenblick's Southern Bell
NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
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NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
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- ymepointer
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
NGPDA is a restricted AA- I am talking open to any breed, and as you so elegantly pointed out, not many shortneys are seen though they are more than welcome to runremmy wrote:All breed praire AA Championships? Besides NGPDA-(not really prairies), what all breed praire AA Championships are there and how many shorthairs run in them?ymepointer wrote:While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.
My vote...Setters
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
We call it the All Breed, although, it is open to German pointing dogs only.ymepointer wrote:NGPDA is a restricted AA- I am talking open to any breed, and as you so elegantly pointed out, not many shortneys are seen though they are more than welcome to runremmy wrote:All breed praire AA Championships? Besides NGPDA-(not really prairies), what all breed praire AA Championships are there and how many shorthairs run in them?ymepointer wrote:While finding PROOF is going to be somewhat difficult, you can take a look at the Major all breed prarie AA championships and count how many setters have placed or won vs the number of shorneys in the same time frame......I believe that will give you the proof you need, though winning is more than JUST range.
My vote...Setters
So, you're saying not many shorthairs run in these Ch, but setters do, so you can make a comparison on that? Of course there will be more setters that won within the time frame because shorthairs don't run in them, even though they can. You rarely see a shorthair in a pointer/setter trial. That's your venue we let you have your fun. We dominate everything else so we'll leave a little something for you.
6xCH, 2xRU CH FC Alpenblick's Southern Bell
NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
Cruzin Kennels on Facebook
Cruzin Kennels ~ http://www.cruzinkennels.com/
NGSPA CH, FC Cruzin's Probable Cause "Mac"
3xCH, NGPDA NC, FC Cruzin's Rocket Queen "Roxy"
Pineland's Streak "Sadie"
Cruzin's Moneymaker "Penny"
Cruzin Kennels on Facebook
Cruzin Kennels ~ http://www.cruzinkennels.com/
- Wagonmaster
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
You also rarely see a setter in a prairie all age trial, so what's the question. Yes there are one or two. The last setter to win Ames was 1970, that's forty years ago. So don't start using the prairie all age or pointer/setter all age trials as a yardstick, the number of setters that are competitive in that venue is tiny compared to the number of dogs in the breed. Not meant by any stretch to demean the few great setters that do compete there, but we are talking averages here, and they don't exactly overwhelm the AA competition. One might say that on average, they are a nonfactor.
What I said stands. On average, and in terms of range, the GSP and the setter are a horse apiece.
Now temperamentally, well that is a different issue. Let's just say that setters and blondes have alot in common.
What I said stands. On average, and in terms of range, the GSP and the setter are a horse apiece.
Now temperamentally, well that is a different issue. Let's just say that setters and blondes have alot in common.
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Some very experienced field trial trainers that I have talked to say a Setter has more potential to become a run off than any other breed including pointers.
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
I dont know anything about setters,but to call an all age gsp a walking anything means you have better be one fast walker.I am not saying that gundog/shooting dog gsp's dont win all age stakes,but when you see a gsp who is only seen at extreme range ever 8 minutes or so while on a horse,I doubt you could walk it and get anything done.My eva bitch who I consider a tweener can push out to 3/4 of a section out west and more at times.
- Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Gentlemen,
This particular friendly arguement has been going on for many years now, however long ago the GSP was a German Versatile dog used for foot hunting all different kinds of Game and birds, the Setter originally was used for setting birds for the master net. Both have evolved into different kinds of hunting animals and depending on the line either can become independent hunting machines, or companion hunters depending on the developed breed line. FT type Setters can run very big as independent hunters, Ryman type Setters are bred for the walking Grouse hunter. There are both types of GSP lines also. No longer can a blanket statement be made that the ES is the larger running dog. However when talking about the real German GSP with KS certification, the ES is a much bigger running dog. The American version of the GSP can be either a big running dog or a companion foot hunting dog, same as the ES. Now breed line determines genetic imprint, and the dogs preform according to how they are bred, and for what purpose.
RGD/Dave
This particular friendly arguement has been going on for many years now, however long ago the GSP was a German Versatile dog used for foot hunting all different kinds of Game and birds, the Setter originally was used for setting birds for the master net. Both have evolved into different kinds of hunting animals and depending on the line either can become independent hunting machines, or companion hunters depending on the developed breed line. FT type Setters can run very big as independent hunters, Ryman type Setters are bred for the walking Grouse hunter. There are both types of GSP lines also. No longer can a blanket statement be made that the ES is the larger running dog. However when talking about the real German GSP with KS certification, the ES is a much bigger running dog. The American version of the GSP can be either a big running dog or a companion foot hunting dog, same as the ES. Now breed line determines genetic imprint, and the dogs preform according to how they are bred, and for what purpose.
RGD/Dave
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Entirely true. You can see examples of every kind of range in both breeds, setters and GSP's. Same with all the other pointing breeds.
On larue's post about walking and AA being contradictory, it again depends on what breeding or line you want. There are some AA breeders/owners who have and want dogs that just run. They can get some placements on them by going to trials and courses, typically AKC type trials but not solely, where so many birds are planted that a dog has to actually ignore them in order not to have a point. The dog runs such a course, stumbles on one bird, and we have an AA. Or you can view the AA as the ultimate bird dog, the dog that when birds are too plentiful, will not show you alot of range because it never gets a chance to. But where birds are not plentiful it will go wherever it needs to in order to find you birds. That might be two or three treelines over, or you are hunting in North Dakota and the dog is checking out Montana. But that bird dog will always find something for you. It will also be a foot hunters dog. Too many people pick type A because they don't know any better. or are more into trialing than hunting. Type B is the true AA, and not common.
On the post about runoffs, I stand by my comment about setters and blondes, because blondes do too.
On larue's post about walking and AA being contradictory, it again depends on what breeding or line you want. There are some AA breeders/owners who have and want dogs that just run. They can get some placements on them by going to trials and courses, typically AKC type trials but not solely, where so many birds are planted that a dog has to actually ignore them in order not to have a point. The dog runs such a course, stumbles on one bird, and we have an AA. Or you can view the AA as the ultimate bird dog, the dog that when birds are too plentiful, will not show you alot of range because it never gets a chance to. But where birds are not plentiful it will go wherever it needs to in order to find you birds. That might be two or three treelines over, or you are hunting in North Dakota and the dog is checking out Montana. But that bird dog will always find something for you. It will also be a foot hunters dog. Too many people pick type A because they don't know any better. or are more into trialing than hunting. Type B is the true AA, and not common.
On the post about runoffs, I stand by my comment about setters and blondes, because blondes do too.
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
I thought a GSP was just a pointer with a docked tail?? Where is the argument at?
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
You don't need a big ranging dog to find birds out west - I've always managed to find plenty of birds with boot licker GSP's:a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west.
http://www.vimeo.com/18415366
- kbshorthairs
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Don't you hate it when you have to get the tracker out for those dang bootlickers? Where was your horse Doc????? I was out of breath just watching the video!!!
- PntrRookie
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Yeah I thought you WERE on a horse as fast as you were huffin' it!kbshorthairs wrote:I was out of breath just watching the video!
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Maybe percentage wise Setters and Pointers may range bigger,but it's the Dog not the Breed.Been a Setter and Pointer man since the early 70's.Have you ver seen Bruce Shaffer's(breeder of your Cash dog) dog Dalin on the ground? He'd give any Pointer or Setter a run for their money and make any judge sit up in the saddle.A dog with Brains,Whatever breed, should adapt to whatever type of country they're hunting.And the original question I believe was directed to Hunting,not Trialing,where alot of time a dog's range is Driven by horseback and sometimes looking like a Greyhound race.A bigger running dog will usually blow by birds that a shorter ranging dog will find.I don't mind a dog running big at times ,as long as they're Hunting while they're doing it and keeping track of me,instead of Racing to point B.
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
in my experience with both breeds, on average, generally speaking, setters have a bit more "juice"
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Gentlemen,
This particular friendly arguement has been going on for many years now, however long ago the GSP was a German Versatile dog used for foot hunting all different kinds of Game and birds, the Setter originally was used for setting birds for the master net. Both have evolved into different kinds of hunting animals and depending on the line either can become independent hunting machines, or companion hunters depending on the developed breed line. FT type Setters can run very big as independent hunters, Ryman type Setters are bred for the walking Grouse hunter. There are both types of GSP lines also. No longer can a blanket statement be made that the ES is the larger running dog. However when talking about the real German GSP with KS certification, the ES is a much bigger running dog. The American version of the GSP can be either a big running dog or a companion foot hunting dog, same as the ES. Now breed line determines genetic imprint, and the dogs preform according to how they are bred, and for what purpose.
RGD/Dave
Very true! I can't see why it is even arguable.
Charlie
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Well, again, you can't lump setters with pointers, with a small number of great exceptions they are not competitive against the pointers as AA's and do not have more "punch" than the modern shorthair. In fact, if you lump in the bench setters (same breed), most foot hunters would be embarrassed, as they would be if you lump in most bench shorthairs (also same breed).Maybe percentage wise Setters and Pointers may range bigger
There is a very wide range, from 50 yards behind you, to two miles in front, in both breeds, and everything in between.
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Could you say that the small number of setters that are competitive against the pointers in AA is considerably larger than the number of shorthairs that are?Well, again, you can't lump setters with pointers, with a small number of great exceptions they are not competitive against the pointers as AA's and do not have more "punch" than the modern shorthair.
- OhioVizsla
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Let's see, 4-1/2 minutes from the time the video started until you got up to the dog. My guess is (by the way you were huffing & puffing) you were walking 3 to 4 MPH. The math puts the dog from 396 to 528 yards from you when you stared the video. Dang, no wonder you have a tracker! Look's like you'll need a license in your surrounding states to be safe.DGFavor wrote:You don't need a big ranging dog to find birds out west - I've always managed to find plenty of birds with boot licker GSP's:a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west.
http://www.vimeo.com/18415366
- kbshorthairs
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Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Yeah!!!! Doc, I think that you and John should go ahead and give me those renegades......why would anyone want a dog like Bugsy or Spot???? Jeeeeez!
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
Haha, I wish!! Vimeo only let me put up 5" of the video! I had about 12" of video total from when I decided to turn it on tracking him down. And I was joggin' most of it after my receiver started shutting off on me due to low battery. He was, western speakin', out there! Here's the same dog on the Garmin at the same spot last year - the farthest I have ever gotten the Garmin to maintain contact:Let's see, 4-1/2 minutes from the time the video started until you got up to the dog. My guess is (by the way you were huffing & puffing) you were walking 3 to 4 MPH. The math puts the dog from 396 to 528 yards from you when you stared the video. Dang, no wonder you have a tracker! Look's like you'll need a license in your surrounding states to be safe
Here's a 350yd'r...as the crow flies :
For the setter guys...gotta be careful not to just trip right over 'em but they take a nice picture!!:
I've hunted/trained/trialed/competed with a lot of both breeds and I'd say it's sixxes really - depends mostly on the dog, how you bring 'em along, what you let 'em do, expose 'em to, etc. I prefer GSP's for what I do because I believe they're better natural retrievers and the lines I like I think are good tough western dogs. I haven't found setters to be as tough personally - and concede all exceptions to "rule" of course.
Re: Friendly Argument - Need Input
DGFavor - You sure have some great pics/videos!!!!DGFavor wrote:You don't need a big ranging dog to find birds out west - I've always managed to find plenty of birds with boot licker GSP's:a big running dog to hunt the wide open spaces out west.
http://www.vimeo.com/18415366