i got hosed!

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ezzy333
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:32 am

DougB wrote:
The contracts can't be enforced so why have one.

Ezzy


It takes effort to enforce a contract. Small claims court, maybe a lawyer. It may not be worth the effort to enforce the contract, but the contract at least tells you what the dog is supposed to be, what the seller promises to do if there is a problem. If I were working with a stranger, as either the buyer or seller, I would prefer the agreement be in ink on paper just to avoid confusion. There are a lot of things I don't know, but I am fairly sure that when things go to court, written documents trump a handshake every time.

You hit on the problem Bojack, there never is any documentation on the net.

The contract is your documentation, along with vet reports, photos, reports from quality breeders.

Does the original posters state have a puppy lemon law. MN does, and would give some recourse even with out a contract. Some states have laws that effect hobby breeders and apply to any sale of pups or even cats.
http://www.malteseonly.com/lemon.html lists some states puppy lemon laws.

It's good that you feel better with a contract but I wouldn't because of what I said, you can't enforce it or you will spend several thousand dollars trying to. And for what?

I don't offer contracts and I wouldn't buy a pup with one. I do offer a verbal contract and that is as good as it gets, that and a handshake. I try very hard to not deal with people who need more.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by V-John » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:53 am

ezzy333 wrote: I don't offer contracts and I wouldn't buy a pup with one. Ezzy
If you think that a contract is hard to enforce (and I agree, they are, unfortunately I know from first had experience with rescue...) then what difference does it make if the pup comes with a contract?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read the above statement as you specifically avoiding a pup simply because there is a contract with that pup. If you can't reasonably enforce a contract, what difference does it make?


Not trying to argue, but just trying to understand the logic here.

Or is the thought that the breeder trying to have some control over how you raise that pup?>

That I can understand I suppose....

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by remmy » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:02 am

I think it's more or less the breeder trying to have control. Back to the thread....any updates on the pups condition? Have you spoken to the breeder again?
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:18 am

V-John wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: I don't offer contracts and I wouldn't buy a pup with one. Ezzy
If you think that a contract is hard to enforce (and I agree, they are, unfortunately I know from first had experience with rescue...) then what difference does it make if the pup comes with a contract?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read the above statement as you specifically avoiding a pup simply because there is a contract with that pup. If you can't reasonably enforce a contract, what difference does it make?


Not trying to argue, but just trying to understand the logic here.

Or is the thought that the breeder trying to have some control over how you raise that pup?>

That I can understand I suppose....
Good point and I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't feel comfortable dealing with people who indicate through their own actions that what they say is not binding or even good enough. People who feel they need a contract are not the people I want to deal with. Look me in the eye and tell me what you guarantee and I will do the same and when we are through we will depart as friends that care about each other instead of a business associate who will take advantage of any situation that is not covered in writing.

JMO and probably badly outdated but I will continue to live with those prinicples,

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by V-John » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:04 am

ezzy333 wrote:
V-John wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: I don't offer contracts and I wouldn't buy a pup with one. Ezzy
If you think that a contract is hard to enforce (and I agree, they are, unfortunately I know from first had experience with rescue...) then what difference does it make if the pup comes with a contract?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read the above statement as you specifically avoiding a pup simply because there is a contract with that pup. If you can't reasonably enforce a contract, what difference does it make?


Not trying to argue, but just trying to understand the logic here.

Or is the thought that the breeder trying to have some control over how you raise that pup?>

That I can understand I suppose....
Good point and I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't feel comfortable dealing with people who indicate through their own actions that what they say is not binding or even good enough. People who feel they need a contract are not the people I want to deal with. Look me in the eye and tell me what you guarantee and I will do the same and when we are through we will depart as friends that care about each other instead of a business associate who will take advantage of any situation that is not covered in writing.

JMO and probably badly outdated but I will continue to live with those prinicples,

Ezzy
Makes perfect sense to me! Unfortunately, times they are a changin'. Thanks!

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:13 am

That's the problem times have changed but these contract quetions come up from time to time & I still believe there are more against them then for.
I'm one for my word & handshake,don't sell with one & wouldn't buy with one.
If some one insisted either way I would refuse would not trust them anymore then they trust me. :D

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by topher40 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:30 am

I will give a contract to anyone that wants one. It states:

This is the dog you wanted
Sex you wanted
Bloolines you wanted
and age you wanted
If you want anymore guarantees buy somewhere else 8)
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by smokinsam » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:57 pm

topher40 wrote:I will give a contract to anyone that wants one. It states:

This is the dog you wanted
Sex you wanted
Bloolines you wanted
and age you wanted
If you want anymore guarantees buy somewhere else 8)
Fair enough.
I'd sign it.LMAO

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by fuzznut » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:55 pm

I've read the pro's and con's on contracts for quite a while on here and on other boards. I have mixed emotions.
I don't buy anything today without some sort of written guarantee- probably none of you do either.

I used to have a very long contract, but have changed it up to be short and sweet. It states who, what, when and where. How much.
And then it states, what I will cover, what I won't cover.

I believe a contract covers the buyer and it covers me. A contract doesn't have to cover every single thing that can come down the pike, but I want the buyer and I to understand up front what I will and won't be responsible for. It also states what the buyer will be responsible for. Both of us have to have reasonable expectations of each other, and that is what my contract states. I make them read it, ask questions, we can strike things out, and add things. But in the end, we both sign it, and agree on what we have signed.

For me, it's not a control issue. I just want us both to agree to agree.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:09 pm

And you can't agree with words & a handshake????

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by BoJack » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:19 pm

A little young yet for X-rays in my opinion.Those hips are probably not even formed good yet.I used to do prelims at one year.And hopefully your vet is experienced in doing OFA quality x-rays.Alot of vets say they know how to do them,but believe me not all do.If they're not done right and the dog positioned right it can make a difference on the reading and rating.Though it's the certification at two years that count.Good luck with your pup.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:41 pm

Too young to be neutered too needs to be fully mature mentally & physically.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by JKP » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:13 am

It's good that you feel better with a contract but I wouldn't because of what I said, you can't enforce it or you will spend several thousand dollars trying to. And for what?
Bingo!!! Its just not worth the time and expense to enforce a contract. You are better of to find a breeder that comes well recommended for good practices and living up to their word. Years back, a buddy of mine imported a dog from Germany from a very good kennel with a long record of good and healthy dogs. Dog developed a problem, and when the breed in Germany received the lab work from the vet, he sent another puppy on his dime. To me, that's the way it should be done.

Don't waste your time with contracts....an Agreement what you do and what you expect from the buyer is fine...but its only worth the paper its written on. Its character that counts and you can't enforce that.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:33 am

tcjack wrote:ace goes in for sugery tomarrow at 9, to get one eye fixed, exray hips and get hernia fixed. vet also thought we should nuter him but i havnt decided on that. ive made no attempt to contact breeder again!
tcjack...at 5 months (or 6 months, or 7 months), you are also wasting your money on xrays. As BoJack said, the hips are not fully developed and will need to be redone in the future...save your cashola.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by DougB » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:09 pm

Don't waste your time with contracts....an Agreement what you do and what you expect from the buyer is fine...but its only worth the paper its written on. Its character that counts and you can't enforce that.
Your choice of course . Unless you have an extremely large circle of close personal friends, you will eventually deal with people you don't know. The guy who sets out to hose you will have a well practiced handshake, will look you right in the eye, and say everything you want to hear. He will do so in a very sincere way. You will believe him.

Small claims court is fairly cheap, usually has no lawyers present, and the loser pays the bill. You present your case with evidence, he presents his. He says it was "as is, no guarantee", you show a signed contract and win. You show the palm of your hand, say "we shook on it" and you don't win. Judges can and will enforce a contract. If the agreement is on paper and signed by both parties, it is a provable agreement. The handshake is also only worth the paper its written on.
But it is your decision. Your dogs, your money, not my problem.

Hip dysplasia (canine) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Radiographs (X-rays) often confirm the presence of hip dysplasia, but radiographic features may not be present until two years of age in some dogs. ...


Before the dog is old enough, all you have to go on is the parents health histories-these are not guarantees-, and the breeders guarantee explaining what he will do if dysplasia appears.
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Post by A/C Guy » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:41 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I think it might be a good idea if you pretended you didn't know anything was wrong, got some pet insurance, rode out the waiting period and got the defects taken care of. .....
That is FRAUD. You are suggesting that he commit a felony because some other jerk cheated him? Why should the insurance company get defrauded in this?
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by A/C Guy » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:51 pm

DougB wrote:... The guy who sets out to hose you will have a well practiced handshake, will look you right in the eye, and say everything you want to hear. He will do so in a very sincere way. You will believe him.

Small claims court is fairly cheap, usually has no lawyers present, and the loser pays the bill. You present your case with evidence, he presents his. He says it was "as is, no guarantee", you show a signed contract and win. You show the palm of your hand, say "we shook on it" and you don't win. Judges can and will enforce a contract. If the agreement is on paper and signed by both parties, it is a provable agreement. The handshake is also only worth the paper its written on.....
That is not true in many states. In Az, a verbal agreement is a binding and enforceable legal contract. Basically, our statues state that a verbal contract is in effect unless there is a written contract, then the written contract takes precedent. I won a multi thousand dollar suit against a guy based upon our verbal contract.

Even with no contract, the buyer would win based upon the fact that he paid the full advertised price and was given defect product. There is a presumption in all purchases that the product will not be defect when sold at the advertised price. This would be an easy slam dunk win for someone that can articulate to the court that any person that buys an animal expects and deserves a healthy animal. For the seller to try to delivery an unhealthy animal is fraudulent; unless the seller disclosed the health issues prior to the exchange of money.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:19 pm

Any man that will lie to you face to face & shake your hand certainly will not have a problem lying to you on paper and signing it.
Then even if you do spend the money & go to court & win does not mean he will pay up.Then your choice is to file a lean if they own anything to file on.
They still do not have to pay up untill the property you filed on is sold.
In the mean time you have to pay every few yrs to keep the lean open in this state anyway unless things have changed.

Oh & I believe you can only collect as much as the initial purchase price,but that might very from state to state.
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by dan v » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:49 pm

Not a lawyer here so probably wrong...again.

But if indeed the OP decides to purse the matter in small claims court doesn't he have to file in the jurisdiction of the seller?
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by fuzznut » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:43 pm

And you can't agree with words & a handshake????
Sure can, with people I know or who have a relationship with. What I say I will do, I will do. Problems arise when people hear what they want to hear, and not what was said.
Knock wood, have never had a problem and don't intend on having any in the future.

The OP is a perfect example... maybe the seller told him this puppy had a not perfect bite? Maybe he just didn't hear him, or didn't understand what he was being told? I've watched puppy buyers never look in a mouth, they just don't know to even look! An off bite isn't the end of the world, not until someone tells the owner that their dog has a bad bite...... then all of a sudden it's a big deal to them. If no one ever told them.. they probably would never have known. Or known to look.

Contracts come more into play when you are dealing with breeding situations, you better darn well know what is expected and agree to it. I've known more then one owner who came unglued when they realized what they were expected to do and didn't pay any attention. Or testing requirements.

Buyer beware... make sure you know what you are buying and from whom.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by deseeker » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:13 pm

Glad to hear Ace is back from the vet and everything went okay :!: :!:

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ayres » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:08 am

To the phrase "you can't enforce a contract", I will simply reply that in reality you can't enforce what's not in a contract.

Really, I don't understand how a verbal agreement and handshake are considered good, but writing down what you agreed to is some kind of bad thing. I realize that lawyers and contracts have a bad stigma, but in reality it's all the "verbal agreements and handshakes" that cause the problems. It's easier to screw someone over if there's no documentation. (This thread is a prime example) If you have everything spelled out in writing, there's a lot less room for misinterpretation and it's more likely that you won't have to enforce the agreement via legal methods, because the other party will simply do what they're contracted to do. (If you don't trust them to do that, you can put a provision in the contract that states all costs of enforcement will be borne by the losing party at trial; or simply take your business elsewhere.)

I realize that many of us yearn for the good ol' days when people were honest with one another and a handshake was a solemn promise. Unfortunately, if I don't know you outside of one or two transactions, or don't know any trustworthy person who can vouch for your integrity, then I really have no idea whether or not you subscribe to the theory of integrity in a person's word. That doesn't mean I should be prohibited from dealing with you, but it also doesn't mean I need to walk into a business transaction with blinders on. Having a simple written contract can provide a lot of clarity. If it helps you out, think of it more as a written warranty.

Bottom line, if you think it's too difficult to enforce a written contract then just go ahead and try to enforce a verbal agreement instead. Good luck.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ayres » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:11 am

tcjack wrote:well ace is home and happy ! everything went really good today at vets. 8)
I'm glad to hear your pup got fixed up! Hopefully we'll get some puppy pictures soon... :D
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ayres » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:15 am

topher40 wrote:I will give a contract to anyone that wants one. It states:

This is the dog you wanted
Sex you wanted
Bloolines you wanted
and age you wanted
If you want anymore guarantees buy somewhere else 8)
Not picking on you topher, but there's no guarantee that the pup will be in good health and free of genetic defects? (I don't think you meant to exclude that) I think that's really all most people want in a contract. Most of the breeders I know do offer that, but they call it a "written health guarantee" and not a "contract". It's really the same thing though.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ayres » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:20 am

gpblitz wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:But if indeed the OP decides to purse the matter in small claims court doesn't he have to file in the jurisdiction of the seller?
In Minnesota you do. Unless law has changed resently.
This is actually going to be a case-by-case answer, depending on the details of the transaction. There's no hard and fast rule, especially if the seller ships the pup to the buyer's home State rather than the buyer picking it up from seller's kennels.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by wills1235 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:10 am

tommyboy72 wrote:It is sad even on a site like this that you can sing someones praises when you are done right but if you are screwed you are given the gag order, kinda like the government huh. :roll: Ridiculous in my opinion. If you are done wrong by a breeder then this should be exactly the place to voice your concerns, opinions and experiences. That is why guys like me come here. I don't mean for the drama but if a breeder is acting in a manner that is subpar, to be polite, then it should be taken care of in house and by in house I mean within a circle of his peers and clients or potential clients like us. The breeder on the other hand should have the opportunity to also give his side of the story as well. I would not want to deal with a situation like this and would rather avoid the chance of it by talking to someone in advance who has dealt with the breeder before. Perhaps that would be a nice new forum area. Rate a breeder or kennel so that newbies and those in the market for a pup could get a rating in advance before buying.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:39 am

Who do you all want to start with? According to this post you are already able to rate all of the good things so I am assuming what you really want is a place to run each other down, which might work, but what do we do with the guys you run down and they aren't here to respond? I also am assuming you are convinced the buyer or complainer is always right. If that is not the truth, then what you are asking for is a place you can say whatever you like about someone with absolutely no prove what you are writing is accurate.

Sounds like a place we all would love. A place where we can say and do whatever we like with absolutely no accountibility. Think we already have a place very much like that and it is called Congress. How has that been working out for you?

Just stop and think what you ask for be for you ask, it will solve or eliminate all sorts of problems.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:19 am

wills1235 wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:It is sad even on a site like this that you can sing someones praises when you are done right but if you are screwed you are given the gag order, kinda like the government huh. :roll: Ridiculous in my opinion. If you are done wrong by a breeder then this should be exactly the place to voice your concerns, opinions and experiences. That is why guys like me come here. I don't mean for the drama but if a breeder is acting in a manner that is subpar, to be polite, then it should be taken care of in house and by in house I mean within a circle of his peers and clients or potential clients like us. The breeder on the other hand should have the opportunity to also give his side of the story as well. I would not want to deal with a situation like this and would rather avoid the chance of it by talking to someone in advance who has dealt with the breeder before. Perhaps that would be a nice new forum area. Rate a breeder or kennel so that newbies and those in the market for a pup could get a rating in advance before buying.
100% agree. God are you listening?
I'm not God, but I have listened to this repeatedly. It's one of those things that sounds good on the surface, but, after experience, doesn't work out. Here is my post from above:

---

If you want to sign a contract and post a bond to cover legal bills from lawsuits generated by public postings here impacting small breeders, we'll be thrilled to change the policy. It'd be less headache for all of us. Where do I send the paperwork?

Joshing aside, there is absolutely no policy that keeps people from corresponding about this via email or PM. Have at it. When you do, you're speaking in the first person and assuming all liability.

Some History:

I've been moderating here since the beginning. I've seen 1. People getting screwed by breeders, 2. Misunderstandings, and 3. Buyers trying to screw small breeders. Probably the bulk are misunderstandings. (See note at the end about his particular case)

In one case that comes to mind, a buyer that had a question about a pup that "wasn't acting right" got on here and absolutely trashed a well-known, *highly* respected small breeder because they hadn't answered email or the phone in three days. After a lot of trash talking by the buyer, and a lot of people jumping in and saying how terrible the breeder was, etc., it turned out that the breeder was away for a few days hunting in rural Montana (this was before cell phones and coverage are as common as they are today) and the pup had a stomach ache. No matter how innocent, the small breeder's business suffered for a while.

Now, I'm not saying that any of that pertains to this situation. I'm just explaining why GDF has a policy that keeps it from getting in the middle.

I sure would want that breeder to talk. Nothing gets resolved without talking about the issue.

FWIW, Greg J.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by taxidermy » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:56 am

You CAN enforce the contract but you will get the pup OR your money back ; no vet bills or any thing else ; dogs in the laws eyes is property . Meeting of the mines is a contract.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by scott townsend » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:18 am

wills1235 wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:It is sad even on a site like this that you can sing someones praises when you are done right but if you are screwed you are given the gag order, kinda like the government huh. :roll: Ridiculous in my opinion. If you are done wrong by a breeder then this should be exactly the place to voice your concerns, opinions and experiences. That is why guys like me come here. I don't mean for the drama but if a breeder is acting in a manner that is subpar, to be polite, then it should be taken care of in house and by in house I mean within a circle of his peers and clients or potential clients like us. The breeder on the other hand should have the opportunity to also give his side of the story as well. I would not want to deal with a situation like this and would rather avoid the chance of it by talking to someone in advance who has dealt with the breeder before. Perhaps that would be a nice new forum area. Rate a breeder or kennel so that newbies and those in the market for a pup could get a rating in advance before buying.
100% agree. God are you listening?
I can some what see both sides of the issue but the problem with letting people make claims that so and so breeder or seller cheated me or sold me a defective dog/pup. There is no way of knowing if they are mistaken or even down right lying.If they are on here posting known false statements or lies, what really do THEY stand to lose versus they individual they are trashing. NOTHING. Once the trash is posted the damge is done. What makes you think they want to or have to come on an open forum and argue to uphold their integrity against a lier and in front of a bunch of members who have no idea of what really took place in the transaction.
It can go both ways the poster can be deceiving in his discription of the event also. How would we know ???( I am not saying that is the case here at all ) But there are two sides to every story and this is no place to get the issues resolved fairly.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Buckeye_V » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:26 pm

A contract is as enforcable as you want it to be. The contract has to hold legal water and you have to have the gonads to go to court when necessary. Anybody can file a small claims case. Anybody. How good is your evidence and testimony?
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by topher40 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:21 pm

Ayres wrote:
topher40 wrote:I will give a contract to anyone that wants one. It states:

This is the dog you wanted
Sex you wanted
Bloolines you wanted
and age you wanted
If you want anymore guarantees buy somewhere else 8)
Not picking on you topher, but there's no guarantee that the pup will be in good health and free of genetic defects? (I don't think you meant to exclude that) I think that's really all most people want in a contract. Most of the breeders I know do offer that, but they call it a "written health guarantee" and not a "contract". It's really the same thing though.

I think a good explanation of what I meant can be a given when you look at my first guarantee, "This is the dog you wanted". Never known anyone to want to buy an unhealthy dog. lol I will re-iterate my guarantee:


This is the dog you wanted
Sex you wanted
Bloolines you wanted
and age you wanted
If you want anymore guarantees buy somewhere else


You can do all the hips. eyes, liver, thyroid, etc. that you want. Still doesnt guarantee you that the dog will hunt. Isnt that what we are after anyways?
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ISAYWHOANOW » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:51 pm

topher40 wrote:
Ayres wrote:
topher40 wrote:I will give a contract to anyone that wants one. It states:

This is the dog you wanted
Sex you wanted
Bloolines you wanted
and age you wanted
If you want anymore guarantees buy somewhere else 8)
Not picking on you topher, but there's no guarantee that the pup will be in good health and free of genetic defects? (I don't think you meant to exclude that) I think that's really all most people want in a contract. Most of the breeders I know do offer that, but they call it a "written health guarantee" and not a "contract". It's really the same thing though.

I think good help can be a given when you look at my first guarantee, "This is the dog you wanted". Never known anyone to want to buy an unhealthy dog. lol I will re-iterate my guarantee:


This is the dog you wanted
Sex you wanted
Bloolines you wanted
and age you wanted
If you want anymore guarantees buy somewhere else


You can do all the hips. eyes, liver, thyroid, etc. that you want. Still doesnt guarantee you that the dog will hunt. Isnt that what we are after anyways?

couldn't agree more topher... :lol:

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by gar-dog » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:28 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I think it might be a good idea if you pretended you didn't know anything was wrong, got some pet insurance, rode out the waiting period and got the defects taken care of.
Wow!

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ElhewPointer » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:56 pm

good luck with that one! ha

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:19 pm

gar-dog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I think it might be a good idea if you pretended you didn't know anything was wrong, got some pet insurance, rode out the waiting period and got the defects taken care of.
Wow!
Kind of tells you something doesn't it. Sure not what I wanted to hear.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:07 am

Hi all, sorry my comment is not dog related and i cannot honestly comment about in the u.s...but here in canada my husband and i have owned a construction company for almost 7 years now...i will tell you without a doubt that if we did not do up a written contract with each reno we would have been screwed more than once!!..it gives a complete understanding between the 2 parties signing it and should be as specific as possible to avoid confusion...we are no stranger to small claims as plantiffs and have had to file claims 4 times in 7 years and never lost one!! reason why CONTRACT!! the last one we won the guy ran out of money and let brian and his crew continue working knowing he was out of funds...then at the end of the job tried picking out things he said he didnt want done and should not have to pay for...well this was a 2 month long reno and this guy had forgotten we did a contract stating specifically what scope of work was to be done and his name was signed on the dotted line...without this contract it would have been our word against his... not only did we win monies owed but we got filing fees, parking expenses for dealing with it, photocopy fees ect AND you do not have to HOPE to get your money after small claims nor do you have to put a lean on property especially if its under 5,000 bucks...you can garnish their paycheck OR freeze their bank account or both until you are paid..it took 2 weeks for the courts to get the money from his account and about a week for them to send it to us!!..my husband wont even fix a washer on a tap without a contract...sounds a bit much i know but screw me over once shame on you screw me over twice shame on me is what i always say.......ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:14 am

Ruth, You are talking about something completely different. Don't think anyone would consider doing a major job without a contract but we are talking about a puppy. If they are enforceable are you going to spend a couple of thousand over a 300 or 400 dollar item. Plus i'm willing to stand behind my pups so why do I need a contract?

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:33 am

Gentlemen & Ladies,
One of the big items we talk about to our clients is the written contract guarantee a breeder provides with his animals, and the ethics of the breeder selling
the animals. Many times a client does not do his home work as to what he is actually purchasing, in my business we try to help eliminate this by only recommending certain breeders. Our clients rely on our training business to recommend quality breeders that will provide the gun dogs they are looking to purchase. Because we are so demanding our clients have never been disappointed in the animals they purchase, a written guarantee for replacing or returning the full purchase price of the animal is manditory, or we do not recommend the breeder. Most of the breeders we recommend have a 10 year health guarantee on the animals they sell. Making sure you are dealing with a reputable breeder is one of the most important aspects of purchasing a quality gun dog, lots of prospective owners make the mistake of trusting a breeder they do not know. My suggestion to any prospective owner is to contact the trainer that he intends on employing, and having that trainer recommend a dog breeder to acquire the quality type of dog that he the client would want to own. In this manner no matter which type & breed of dog the client wants, the trainer because he has contact with different quality breeders, can guide the prospective client in purchasing the gun dog the client most wants to own. In our business we deal with Companion Grouse hunting dogs, still others deal with Quail dogs, FT type, Cover dogs ect. A client must have some understanding as to what kind of dog he or she is looking to acquire, this has to do with the clients interests and how the animal will fits into their home life.
RGD/Dave

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:50 am

Hi ezzy, i know what the topic is thats why i stated its not dog related but was more about the need to have a contract or written guarantee and youd be surprised how many people dont get them in a situation because they feel its so expensive to uphold...have you ever been to small claims?..i was stating the info from experience because you can sue someone even for 300 bucks and it does not cost thousands of dollars..you dont need a lawyer in small claims and its only 75 to file no matter the amount (upto 25,000)..i dont know why you think you have to spend thousands? AND if you win you get all your money back invested...also yes i am willing to go to court for 300 bucks if i know i have been scammed even if its over a puppy!!.. we have gone to court for as little as 700 dollars, its cost about 100 total in expenses and we got it all back..we also went for 9,000 and it cost only about 300 dollars because of the need for subpeonas and we got it all back too.. and lastly obviously many people do dealings everyday without contracts or written guarantees that is upto each individual and its seems unnecessary to most until they get shafted and say "man i wish i had that in writting" just sayin!!.....ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:14 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:Hi ezzy, i know what the topic is thats why i stated its not dog related but was more about the need to have a contract or written guarantee and youd be surprised how many people dont get them in a situation because they feel its so expensive to uphold...have you ever been to small claims?..i was stating the info from experience because you can sue someone even for 300 bucks and it does not cost thousands of dollars..you dont need a lawyer in small claims and its only 75 to file no matter the amount (upto 25,000)..i dont know why you think you have to spend thousands? AND if you win you get all your money back invested...also yes i am willing to go to court for 300 bucks if i know i have been scammed even if its over a puppy!!.. we have gone to court for as little as 700 dollars, its cost about 100 total in expenses and we got it all back..we also went for 9,000 and it cost only about 300 dollars because of the need for subpeonas and we got it all back too.. and lastly obviously many people do dealings everyday without contracts or written guarantees that is upto each individual and its seems unnecessary to most until they get shafted and say "man i wish i had that in writting" just sayin!!.....ruth
Ruth,

I have no problem with whatever you wish to do but to date I have never found a need to have a contract for a dog. People I buy from are friends,if not before I bought then afterwards, and I have never had to give anybody buying a pup a contract and they are all friends too. A simple hand shake works quite well when you are both able to talk to each other and have the pup be your concern. If you have a legitive complaint I don't know of any breeder that won't make it right. Sure there are a few but I neither sell or buy from people I can't call a friend.Out of the five pups in the last litter 2 are in Montana, and 3 are scatered here in IL. I still e-mail, call, and get together with all of the owners. No contracts since there wasn't anything that need to be covered. If there is a problem with any dog you buy I will take it back. Just that simple.

And just to make it clear, I am yet to see anyone win when going to court. And I have seen people spend a 1000 or more trying to win one in vet costs and lawyer fees. In 99% of the cases where someone has gone to court over a puppy guarantee there has been 2 losers and no winners.

JMO

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by tommyboy72 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:21 pm

I have been reading some of the posts quoting in support of my earlier post and some against. That was just an idea I threw out there. Truth be told where I live we handle stuff old school. I guess it is part of living out west. If someone has the audacity to try and screw you on a dog deal or any other deal similar to that, we have the unwritten rule of an a$$ whuppin. You screw me, I come to your house and whup your a$$. SImple as that and it keeps everyone honest. There are reprecussions to your actions and you are more accountable for how you treat people. Whether you be a dealer selling a sick pup or an unsatisfied buyer smearing the sellers name. Some of you easterners are peculiar folk. Where I live it would have been handled by now. Just the way it works out here and it works pretty darn well. You guys from back east want to sue over everything including an a$$ whuppin you may or may not have deserved. If you deserved it, take it and go on and I bet you don't rip anyone else off on a dog. If you did not deserve it then defend your good name and put a knot on the head of the guy smearing yours. I guess I will always be a bit behind the times in my thinking though. :D

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:29 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Gentlemen & Ladies,
One of the big items we talk about to our clients is the written contract guarantee a breeder provides with his animals, and the ethics of the breeder selling
the animals. Many times a client does not do his home work as to what he is actually purchasing, in my business we try to help eliminate this by only recommending certain breeders. Our clients rely on our training business to recommend quality breeders that will provide the gun dogs they are looking to purchase. Because we are so demanding our clients have never been disappointed in the animals they purchase, a written guarantee for replacing or returning the full purchase price of the animal is manditory, or we do not recommend the breeder. Most of the breeders we recommend have a 10 year health guarantee on the animals they sell. Making sure you are dealing with a reputable breeder is one of the most important aspects of purchasing a quality gun dog, lots of prospective owners make the mistake of trusting a breeder they do not know. My suggestion to any prospective owner is to contact the trainer that he intends on employing, and having that trainer recommend a dog breeder to acquire the quality type of dog that he the client would want to own. In this manner no matter which type & breed of dog the client wants, the trainer because he has contact with different quality breeders, can guide the prospective client in purchasing the gun dog the client most wants to own. In our business we deal with Companion Grouse hunting dogs, still others deal with Quail dogs, FT type, Cover dogs ect. A client must have some understanding as to what kind of dog he or she is looking to acquire, this has to do with the clients interests and how the animal will fits into their home life.
RGD/Dave
Good post but I think that is what most of us do with out the need for a contract. We all know who we can trust and we recommend those people when asked. But I have found that there are very few people you can't trust if they know they can trust you. And the minute you come looking at one of my pups and your first question is about the need for a contract that automatically tells me where your concerns are and they aren't in finding a good puppy. I do think we all get over whelmed anymore with all of the reports about unscrupulous people that we have become jaded in our thinking. I still find 99% of people are honest regardless of what you read. What you post makes me think you missed the golden years when we could deal with a handshake or that no one can pick a puppy with out someone telling them whats good or whats bad. I think it must be true with your clientele from what you say but I don't find it true with most people who have spent their time researching what they want and where to find it.

On this board alone there must be 20 or 30 great people o get advise from, buy from, and have some of the best pups in the world for whatever purpose you want to use them for. Just not much need to pay for someon elses opinion.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:33 pm

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I am willing to stand behind my animals. I am willing to go to the "plate" or outside or to court to settle my disputes. I prefer to do it civilly, but if it takes something to get their attention - then I will do it.

I know people who have WON in court. I know people who have lost. I used to work in courts every day. I know the system, as it paid my salary. You don't have to spend lots of $ to get what you need. If you do, you are doing it the wrong way.....

Justin
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:37 pm

I'm not a sue happy person got better things to do & that's why I wouldn't sell to a person asking for a written contract & believe it or not a verbal agreement is a contract.
I do know a friend of mine sued for the cost of a refigerator in a camper that didn't work when they were told everything worked.They won their case but never have recieved a penny,that was 10 to 12 yrs ago.They have to refile their lean on his house every so many yrs at $78 to keep it open.My friend passed 2 yrs ago so don't know if his wife has collected or quit refiling since.
I just know if I sell to some one & they are not happy I will give their money back for return of the dog.I don't want one of my dogs with some one that is not going to give it a good home because they are not happy with it.
SIMPLE AS THAT!!

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:09 pm

Well ezzy im gonna have to agree to disagree with ya on this one.. :) ..buyers are not always the one interested in contracts anyway there are many breeders out there with non-breeding, co-owning, and 1st right to buy back contracts as well..if we all went on a smile and a hand shake or a verbal promise there would be no need for deposits on upcoming or newly whelped litters because they would go on the buyers word..it would be first call, second call and so on gets the pick in that order but it doesnt work that way because people back out on their word.. i have found in looking for a GSP pup that until the breeder has your deposit you dont have a pup and some arent even conceived yet!!.. i told each one i had talked to i would not send a deposit until i could see the pup in a photo(if too far to see in person) and call others with a pup from them...and believe me it weeded out alot of them when you talk references!!..i think its great you stand behind your dogs..and i do believe you would..i also think any breeder who wants to keep in contact and be friends with the people their pups are going to are responsible caring people too and i as a buyer wouldnt have it any other way..i want to stay in contact as often as possible with my pups breeder..and i do trust him to be honest or i wouldnt have sent him my money..but i strongly disagree for sure what you said to RYMAN GUNDOG that if someone looked at your pups and talked about a contract they are not concerned about the pup?..if they bought a pup from someone in the past and loved and trained it and it became part of their life and family as they all do and then it was diagnosed with a hereditary disease and had to be put down i guarentee the next time they went to buy a pup a written health guarantee/contract would be brought up..well everyone has an opinion and this is just mine!!......ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:22 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:I have been reading some of the posts quoting in support of my earlier post and some against. That was just an idea I threw out there. Truth be told where I live we handle stuff old school. I guess it is part of living out west. If someone has the audacity to try and screw you on a dog deal or any other deal similar to that, we have the unwritten rule of an a$$ whuppin. You screw me, I come to your house and whup your a$$. SImple as that and it keeps everyone honest. There are reprecussions to your actions and you are more accountable for how you treat people. Whether you be a dealer selling a sick pup or an unsatisfied buyer smearing the sellers name. Some of you easterners are peculiar folk. Where I live it would have been handled by now. Just the way it works out here and it works pretty darn well. You guys from back east want to sue over everything including an a$$ whuppin you may or may not have deserved. If you deserved it, take it and go on and I bet you don't rip anyone else off on a dog. If you did not deserve it then defend your good name and put a knot on the head of the guy smearing yours. I guess I will always be a bit behind the times in my thinking though. :D
ABSOULUTELY! You sound like my buddy Randy Hendrixson. He is the principal here in Pretty Prairie, and before that he was at Locust Grove High School in Oklahoma. That is verbatim what he would have said or written! :lol: :lol: :lol:

We sell our pups with a packet of information that we present to our clients and go over with. Everything from health clearances, guarentee's, vaccination summary, & how to properly care, shelter and feed your animal, etc. NO CONTRACT though telling you what you can and cannot do. That is wrong, IMO. You have to cover your bases, as there are alot of idiots roaming the world, and shiesters looking for their moment of attention in court. That is why I never delete an email correspondance or letter from a client. You just never know when you may need to present it. I hate that its that way... Its not the 99% of clients you have to worry about, Its that one looking for attention and gets a mob mentality going without anyway of everyone seeing hard facts or both sides of the story. Before you know it you've got a band of people yelling "lynch him!" without ever hearing from the breeder or the entire story.

I'm with Tboy. If you're gona squeal loud and make a public ridicule out of me, you better have your facts straight, or I'll give you something to hollar about. :wink:
Jess Stucky
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:23 pm

Ruth in the same respect if a seller doesn't get a deposit when the pups are born or even after the pics are sent the buyer vanishes.It works both ways!
But most breeders will even return the deposit if the buyers decide to change their mind though it's not required.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:02 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ruth in the same respect if a seller doesn't get a deposit when the pups are born or even after the pics are sent the buyer vanishes.It works both ways!
But most breeders will even return the deposit if the buyers decide to change their mind though it's not required.
oh 100% agreed..that was my point!! it does indeed work both ways..a deposit request is a form of commitment for the breeder and a health guarantee/contract request may be a form of commitment for the buyer!! if you are both committed neither should be an issue i think!!.....ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:08 pm

?..if they bought a pup from someone in the past and loved and trained it and it became part of their life and family as they all do and then it was diagnosed with a hereditary disease and had to be put down i guarentee the next time they went to buy a pup a written health guarantee/contract would be brought up
Have had that happen once but there was no call for a guaratee since it wasn't needed the first time to get what they were owed.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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