i got hosed!

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Buckeye_V
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:37 pm

I just have a question for those of you who do not think that a contract is necessary. What are you going to do (because you do not have one) when a buyer drags your butt into court because of an implied or verbal (i.e. handshake) agreement and he/her can prove you are wrong (all they have to convince in a civil case is the judge or magistrate)? A contract protects both parties from this type of thing.

Just curious :|
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....

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prairiefirepointers
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:55 pm

I agree with Ezzy for once. I am usually end up making friends if not before, but definately after the sale. I love to keep up on how the dogs and owners are doing. It makes my day to get an update email and or pics from a client. Keeping that relationship and line of communication going is nice.

Nothing against GDF, but I do know I would NEVER advertise a litter of pups on this forum for sale. Although there's several people I feel like I "Know" on here and would make fantastic homes for them, there's also some who seem like they know WAY TOO MUCH about dragging breeders into court. Its just too spooky for me. I'm a small outfit, I can't afford to have someone drag me through the mud or into court on a whim.

Luckily I keep all records and my wife's mother and brother are lawyers. :wink:
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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:06 pm

Ezzy,
There is never any charge to our clients for recommending breeders, and our clients pick the dog breed they want, not us. We simply keep them from
getting screwed. We train Grouse dogs here, and charge for nothing else, the breeders we recommend have been developed over a life time of working with
most of their dogs. In the old days when contracts were seldom needed, because a breeders reputation meant everything to him, things were different. Today
you can't straighten things out with an "bleep" whipping, unless you want to spend time in jail, especially here in the eastern part of the USA. Contracts now keep
breeders and clients on even footing, in fact our clients have never had a problem with the breeders we recommend, and they get the dogs they want.

RGD/Dave

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Meller » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:23 pm

Would someone that would want a contract on a puppy write up what exactly what they would like the contract to specify.
Oh yeh here in missouri we don't have arse woopens gave to us we fight for them! :mrgreen:

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:01 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:I agree with Ezzy for once. I am usually end up making friends if not before, but definately after the sale. I love to keep up on how the dogs and owners are doing. It makes my day to get an update email and or pics from a client. Keeping that relationship and line of communication going is nice.

Nothing against GDF, but I do know I would NEVER advertise a litter of pups on this forum for sale. Although there's several people I feel like I "Know" on here and would make fantastic homes for them, there's also some who seem like they know WAY TOO MUCH about dragging breeders into court. Its just too spooky for me. I'm a small outfit, I can't afford to have someone drag me through the mud or into court on a whim.

Luckily I keep all records and my wife's mother and brother are lawyers. :wink:
anyone who is honest with the people they are selling pups to shouldnt be spooked at all..this post was started by someone who in their opinion "got hosed" ..and i dont think that anyone has suggested they would just bring a breeder to court on a whim like theres nothin better to do that day...this is a forum and on forums people just like to discuss things and maybe even debate alittle..dont judge people on this forum too quickly especially based on a few posts..and if anything IS spooky its the people so opposed to a contract that protects all involved...ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:13 pm

Buckeye V if some one drags me into court I will give their money back for return of the dog which I would do anyway.That's all they can win regardless. :D
The original purchase price.
I am 64 yrs old never sued anyone & never been sued but some here have had the experience more then once which kinda makes me wonder.
Some seem to be sue happy & must enjoy the experience.

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prairiefirepointers
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:22 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:anyone who is honest with the people they are selling pups to shouldnt be spooked at all..
I am an honest breeder and my reputation is what keeps me in the business. So, I think you need to whoa up a bit.

IT DOES SPOOK me when people nonshallauntly gloat about how easy it is to take someone into court, what the process entails, what the filing fees are, how easilly it is done and to prove a breeder wrong without a contract, and so on. Perhaps I've interpereted this all wrong, but my gut tells me differently.

You don't see breeders posting about how easy it is to put the screws to the consumer do you? I suppose that'd be a legitimate topic to
GUNDOGS wrote:discuss things and maybe even debate alittle
? :roll: :lol:
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ayres » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:52 pm

topher40 wrote:I think a good explanation of what I meant can be a given when you look at my first guarantee, "This is the dog you wanted". Never known anyone to want to buy an unhealthy dog. lol
Oh, I see now. It all came down to what was meant by the phrase "This is the dog you wanted." You apparently meant that to include "this dog is healthy". I didn't know that's what you meant until you explained it a little better.

But now I'm wondering about what if "the dog is healthy" for two months, but then shows a genetic defect? At that point, I find out that it "wasn't the dog I wanted." What then? Do you pay for surgery? Replace the pup? Give a refund and take the pup back? Take the pup back without a refund? Refund without taking the pup? Tell me to take a hike?

...


Doesn't it seem like it would be pretty easy to have a misunderstanding about the way something was to be interpreted? Doesn't it seem like if we'd have that written down in clear language, problems like that might be avoided? I'm just saying... that's how these problems start. Then one side goes on the internet and starts blasting the other side over the problem, because it's probably their only recourse. That's how these problems get compounded.


(I am in no way insinuating that you'd sell a pup with a genetic defect - that was for example purposes only. It's very easy for two people to think they're on the same page, only to find out later that they weren't.)
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by dudleysmith » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:53 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:
GUNDOGS wrote:.


IT DOES SPOOK me when people nonshallauntly gloat about how easy it is to take someone into court, what the process entails, what the filing fees are, how easilly it is done and to prove a breeder wrong without a contract, and so on. Perhaps I've interpereted this all wrong, but my gut tells me differently.

You don't see breeders posting about how easy it is to put the screws to the consumer do you? I suppose that'd be a legitimate topic to
GUNDOGS wrote:
:

I have to agree with you 100% here...buying dogs to me is the same as buying animals at livestock market, you buy it its yours...

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Ayres » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:58 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:IT DOES SPOOK me when people nonshallauntly gloat about how easy it is to take someone into court, what the process entails, what the filing fees are, how easilly it is done and to prove a breeder wrong without a contract, and so on. Perhaps I've interpereted this all wrong, but my gut tells me differently.
I've not been to court on this issue specifically, but I do know the process inside and out. I certainly didn't meant to "gloat", if that's how it came across to you. I didn't think anyone else discussing the matter was gloating either. Did you take offense to anything in particular?
prairiefirepointers wrote:You don't see breeders posting about how easy it is to put the screws to the consumer do you? I suppose that'd be a legitimate topic to
GUNDOGS wrote:discuss things and maybe even debate alittle
? :roll: :lol:
Well a contract is binding on both parties... the breeder and the buyer. It's just that usually the breeder isn't the one with the gripe, because they got cash in their pocket. It's hard to find a complaint with that. Now, if you come across a breeder that got a bad check as payment, you can bet that they'd be wanting to get that pup back, right? Or at least enforce the purchase price. It's just that, usually, the only requirement of the buyer is to pay money for the pup. Breeders typically use contracts as a defense to unwarranted claims for damages.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by JKP » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:08 pm

But now I'm wondering about what if "the dog is healthy" for two months, but then shows a genetic defect? At that point, I find out that it "wasn't the dog I wanted." What then? Do you pay for surgery? Replace the pup? Give a refund and take the pup back? Take the pup back without a refund? Refund without taking the pup? Tell me to take a hike?
The "remedy" must be part of the contract..if that's what you're going to do. I limit the remedy to the actual price paid for the puppy and the return of the dog. (they want to buy the pup back for a $1 after that, that's a new deal.) You can't breed all perfect dogs...that's what really frosts me about this whole topic. Yes, as breeders we need to do the right thing but buyers have to be told...eyeball to eyeball...that as hard as "we " try, its not possible to align the canine genome perfectly. The idea that we can rule out all risk is absurd. Problem is that when you tell them that, they're most likely to head down the road to the first breeder from the "School of P.T. Barnum" and get suckered...but I can't help that.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by TAK » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Buckeye_V wrote:I just have a question for those of you who do not think that a contract is necessary. What are you going to do (because you do not have one) when a buyer drags your butt into court because of an implied or verbal (i.e. handshake) agreement and he/her can prove you are wrong (all they have to convince in a civil case is the judge or magistrate)? A contract protects both parties from this type of thing.

Just curious :|
Well I am going to go to court.... KNOWING that the judge is going to side with me!
Not a contract person.... Unless you take a good ol fasion handshake and keep me posted talk as one??? That and I have sold to 4 lawyers.... One of them twice!

See its this way. Do things honest, and you won't have a problem.

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:46 pm

About 5 yrs ago I took a dog back & refunded the whole purchase price with no cntract.It wasn't because the dog had any health issues or defects.The owner didn't like the dog because he wouldn't fight for his food plus he said the dog was not interested in birds.I gladly returned his money for the dog even though he was now 9 mos old versus 7 wks old when he purchased him.
I stated the dog never had any health issues above which he didn't but was almost starved to death when I picked him up.With in a wk I had most of his weight back on him his tail was starting to come out from between his legs.I kept the dog untill he was 1 1/2 old & very well started on pigeons yeah this dog that didn't like birds.
I sold him for almost double the original purchase price to a guy that is or atleast used to be a member here.You could not buy the dog for dbl that price now.
Infact he once replied to me he didn't deserve a dog as nice as Sledge & he has owned GSPS for a few yrs.
My point is I don't want a dog with an owner that is unhappy because he is not going to have a very good home.
You can take your contracts & $7139em :!: :!: :!: :!:

Did I spell that right ?? :lol:

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:11 pm

Bravo. *Clapping*
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:38 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:
GUNDOGS wrote:anyone who is honest with the people they are selling pups to shouldnt be spooked at all..
I am an honest breeder and my reputation is what keeps me in the business. So, I think you need to whoa up a bit.

IT DOES SPOOK me when people nonshallauntly gloat about how easy it is to take someone into court, what the process entails, what the filing fees are, how easilly it is done and to prove a breeder wrong without a contract, and so on. Perhaps I've interpereted this all wrong, but my gut tells me differently.

You don't see breeders posting about how easy it is to put the screws to the consumer do you? I suppose that'd be a legitimate topic to
GUNDOGS wrote:discuss things and maybe even debate alittle
? :roll: :lol:
Ya i think YOU need to whoa up a bit there ..first off your commenting about my quote which you totally misunderstood obviously!!!!!!!!! re-read it..its says ANYONE who is honest with people they are selling pups to shouldnt be spooked at all...meaning if in fact you are an honest breeder you have no reason to feel threatened or spooked or afraid or intimidated..need i go on..it didnt say YOU should feel spooked cause YOURE gulilty of being dishonest did i...you are misinterpeting the sentence which is your first mistake..the second is you probably read 4 or 5 comments out of over 3 pages of convo.. third youre making it sound as though myself or others are professional breeder suing individuals.. because i know facts and im educated on a certain topic doesnt make it SPOOKY..i never said it was easily done either and i DO know the fees because as i stated in my first post my company has had to go to court because of people who like to scam and if you walk away from it they continue to scam others...i dont know about you but my family cant afford to walk away from thousands of dollars because of dishonest individuals..and lastly FYI i have NEVER had to go to court with a person i got a dog from EVER and i never will... because anyone we have chosen as a breeder would not mind coming up with a mutual agreement or contract or written guarantee of some sort if i requested it cause they dont have a problem with standing behind their dogs!! thats the kind of breeder i buy my new addition to the family from.....ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:08 pm

OK NOW IM REALLY CONFUSED!!! PRAIRIEFIREPOINTERS...i read one of your earlier posts and you state you give health clearances, guarantees, ect with your pups...this is what i have been talking about the entire time...why are you debating me when you in fact provide a buyer with what i am saying a breeder should provide!!! ...ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:14 pm

No, I understood you plainly. I am an honest breeder. I believe we go above and beyond to satisfy our customers. I don't ever have a reason to be spooked by selling a pup to someone. That's because the first time I heard someone who was interested in purchasing a pup rattle off about legalities, contracts and how many people they may or may not have dragged into court, They wouldn't be doing business with PFP & Supply. I'd quickly tell them I had nothing available for them.

When you say that "Anyone who is honest doesn't have a reason to be spooked at all" that makes me laugh. That's sounds like something guilty people say to make themselves feel better about putting the screws to someone. :lol:

There are plenty of Scam artists out there taking advantage of perfectly honest people. Or maybe its a figment of my imagination. You don't have to be the smartest kid wearin a crash helmut to know that.
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:16 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:OK NOW IM REALLY CONFUSED!!! PRAIRIEFIREPOINTERS...i read one of your earlier posts and you state you give health clearances, guarantees, ect with your pups...this is what i have been talking about the entire time...why are you debating me when you in fact provide a buyer with what i am saying a breeder should provide!!! ...ruth
I do. I DON"T HAVE ANY CONTRACTS THOUGH! I don't belive in them!!! It is wrong for me to dictate what the consumer does with his or her purchase after the dog leaves my place. (acceptable by law of course)
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by dudleysmith » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:20 pm

THIS IS SILLY...pure and simple......the same people that complain about loosing $500 on a pup are the same ones that go out and buy a brand new $35k car and trade it in the next for 23k...loose 12k in a year for nothing but complain about loosing $500 on a pup....It would do most of yall some good to grow up on a farm and see what happens on that end you aint getting a refund for a cow you spend $1000 for at market and she come down with pnemonia 3 days after you get her home and dies...YOU SUCK IT UP and move on

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:39 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Gentlemen & Ladies,
One of the big items we talk about to our clients is the written contract guarantee a breeder provides with his animals, and the ethics of the breeder selling
the animals. Many times a client does not do his home work as to what he is actually purchasing, in my business we try to help eliminate this by only recommending certain breeders. Our clients rely on our training business to recommend quality breeders that will provide the gun dogs they are looking to purchase. Because we are so demanding our clients have never been disappointed in the animals they purchase, a written guarantee for replacing or returning the full purchase price of the animal is manditory, or we do not recommend the breeder. Most of the breeders we recommend have a 10 year health guarantee on the animals they sell. Making sure you are dealing with a reputable breeder is one of the most important aspects of purchasing a quality gun dog, lots of prospective owners make the mistake of trusting a breeder they do not know. My suggestion to any prospective owner is to contact the trainer that he intends on employing, and having that trainer recommend a dog breeder to acquire the quality type of dog that he the client would want to own. In this manner no matter which type & breed of dog the client wants, the trainer because he has contact with different quality breeders, can guide the prospective client in purchasing the gun dog the client most wants to own. In our business we deal with Companion Grouse hunting dogs, still others deal with Quail dogs, FT type, Cover dogs ect. A client must have some understanding as to what kind of dog he or she is looking to acquire, this has to do with the clients interests and how the animal will fits into their home life.
RGD/Dave
THANKYOU..by far the best post on this thread!!! 100% of what i am saying breeders should provide if asked by the buyer to provide!!! the fact that you only recommend breeders who do this is the proper way to ensure all people involved have a total understanding of what is expected of them and the dog benefits because of no confusion!!THANKYOU AGAIN!! :mrgreen: ....ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:58 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:No, I understood you plainly. I am an honest breeder. I believe we go above and beyond to satisfy our customers. I don't ever have a reason to be spooked by selling a pup to someone. That's because the first time I heard someone who was interested in purchasing a pup rattle off about legalities, contracts and how many people they may or may not have dragged into court, They wouldn't be doing business with PFP & Supply. I'd quickly tell them I had nothing available for them.

When you say that "Anyone who is honest doesn't have a reason to be spooked at all" that makes me laugh. That's sounds like something guilty people say to make themselves feel better about putting the screws to someone. :lol:

There are plenty of Scam artists out there taking advantage of perfectly honest people. Or maybe its a figment of my imagination. You don't have to be the smartest kid wearin a crash helmut to know that.
AGAIN!!! MY KNOWLEDGE OF GOING TO COURT IS BASED ON RUNNING A CONSTRUCTION BUSINESS WHERE WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER PEOPLE RECEIVING A PAYCHEQUE EVERY WEEK...IF WE DONT GET PAID BY THE CUSTOMER WHO IS DISHONEST WE IN TURN CANNOT PAY OUR EMPLOYEES AND IN ORDER TO DO THIS WE HAVE HAD TO TAKE PEOPLE TO COURT TO GET NOT ONLY OUR MONEY BUT THE MONEY OF OUR SUBCONTRACTORS!!!! IT IS NOT DOG RELATED!!! READ THE POSTS!!! YOU CAN LAUGH ALL YOU WANT YOU MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE!!! TAKE A LOOK AGAIN IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY POSTS I MENTION HEALTH GUARANTEE/CONTRACT IS WHAT I BELIEVE IS IN GOOD FAITH GIVEN BY A BREEDER WHO STANDS BY THEIR DOGS WHICH IS WHAT YOU STATED EARLIER IN A POST YOU PROVIDE BUT ARE DEBATING SOMEONE WHO IS SAYING THEY WOULD WANT THAT!!! AND TO SAY TO LOOSEN UP MY BUN ITS CUTTING OFF THE CIRCULATION IN MY BRAIN IS REALLY A NICE WAY TO TALK TO A WOMAN YOUR WIFES A LUCKY LADY!!!!....RUTH
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:04 pm

You must have some terrible customers I worked for a roofing company for yrs & I can't remember the owner of the company ever going to court to get his money.He did contracts of course big business.
The last 10 yrs or so I worked up untill I had a mini stroke I did roofing jobs I could do my self or with a clean up man besides me once in a while I never wrote one contract & never was sued or had to sue. :D

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by GUNDOGS » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:27 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:You must have some terrible customers I worked for a roofing company for yrs & I can't remember the owner of the company ever going to court to get his money.He did contracts of course big business.
The last 10 yrs or so I worked up untill I had a mini stroke I did roofing jobs I could do my self or with a clean up man besides me once in a while I never wrote one contract & never was sued or had to sue. :D
"SOME" is the key word.. 4 people who didnt pay out of approx 350 honest paying customers over the years just means 4 dishonest people!! we would have been at a loss of approx 14,000 dollars if we just "let it go"..not an option when people rely on you to feed their families....ruth
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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:38 pm

My wife must be even more LUCKY,been married 45 yrs come March the fourth & yes I signed a contract!! :lol: :P

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by Truthseeker » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:54 pm

with construction contracts are a must have. people forget things both the contractor and client, their must be a scope of work to protect both parties. With dogs & livestock well, they die. if a breeder wont replace or refund find a new breeder. education is not free

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Re: i got hosed!

Post by ACooper » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:16 pm

dudleysmith wrote:THIS IS SILLY...pure and simple......the same people that complain about loosing $500 on a pup are the same ones that go out and buy a brand new $35k car and trade it in the next for 23k...loose 12k in a year for nothing but complain about loosing $500 on a pup....It would do most of yall some good to grow up on a farm and see what happens on that end you aint getting a refund for a cow you spend $1000 for at market and she come down with pnemonia 3 days after you get her home and dies...YOU SUCK IT UP and move on
Cooooommmmeee oooonnnnn Dud you know Unreasonable people don't want to hear reason! People believe they should not have to face any risk in life. Same reason our country is in the shape it's now...

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Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: i got hosed!

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:26 pm

I believe this has gone about as far as it can back a few posts ago. I am locking it for lack of any new information.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

Locked