What qualifies as LINEBRED?

[kbshorthairs]

I am taking a poll. What qualifies as linebred? I thought I had an idea, but I must not be accurate. Several people claim to have a linebred this or double bred that.......double this on bottom etc... I'd like to see some pedigrees so that I can get a visual picture to go along with these definitions. Thanks in advance for the information I am about to be showered with.

[Cajun Casey]

I follow Brackett's Formula for defining linebreeding. The mother's grandfather is the father's father, or the reverse. The typical breeding is niece to uncle or nephew to aunt.

[jimbo&rooster]

What are the percentages that are listed on the pedigree? Ive seen them and never understood them.
Jim

[ACooper]

Karl I am fairly sure you have plenty of grasp on what line breeding is, people just trying to capitalize on a name or a "line". Tough economy gotta sell pups!

[ACooper]

Howie you know I wasn't talking about you or your pedigree. I believe KB was talking in generalities that people seem to advertise pups as line bred this or that when said dog is way back in pedigree.

[kbshorthairs]

I was being a bit facetious, but maybe Howie could teach a class. A dog's appearance in a pedigree does not equal a "line." Some people, who seem knowledgeable most of the time, use incorrect terminology when representing their dogs. Maybe I am just too uptight. I understand using names to try to sell puppies, but the appearance of a dog in a three generation pedigree does not represent linebreeding. Appearing twice out of 30 dogs doesn't mean double line bred. Shame on those of you that should know better.........and if you don't know better.......research the claims you are about to make before you make them......
Okay, I will quit complaining now.

[Cajun Casey]

Same thing applies to "champion bloodlines."

[kbshorthairs]

I apologize for the sarcasm, but if I read another ad about a double bred Clown or Rusty pup I think I will puke. There may be a few dogs still alive that fit that description, and if I owned a dog bred that way, it would infuriate me even further to see these inaccurate claims. I have been around the block enough to see through these claims, especially if a pedigree is available for inspection, but when people that are new to all this start asking about "lines" and mentioning dogs that have been gone for twenty years it is obvious that someone is trying to capitalize on namedropping.
I guess it really does boil down to "buyer beware."

[Coveyrise64]

What are the percentages that are listed on the pedigree? Ive seen them and never understood them.

In bred Co- efficient.

people just trying to capitalize on a name or a "line". Tough economy gotta sell pups

Sorry Coop, I don't have any pups for sale. I don't believe I have to capitalize on any name or line!!! The man asked to see some linebred peds., so I posted one.

Does the COI have to be above a certain percentage for a dog to be considered a line breeding?

Coveyrise64

[Cajun Casey]

I apologize for the sarcasm, but if I read another ad about a double bred Clown or Rusty pup I think I will puke. There may be a few dogs still alive that fit that description, and if I owned a dog bred that way, it would infuriate me even further to see these inaccurate claims. I have been around the block enough to see through these claims, especially if a pedigree is available for inspection, but when people that are new to all this start asking about "lines" and mentioning dogs that have been gone for twenty years it is obvious that someone is trying to capitalize on namedropping.
I guess it really does boil down to "buyer beware."

How would you describe the breeding on your Bella? She has a very good pedigree to use as an example.

[LBH]

I apologize for the sarcasm, but if I read another ad about a double bred Clown or Rusty pup I think I will puke. There may be a few dogs still alive that fit that description, and if I owned a dog bred that way, it would infuriate me even further to see these inaccurate claims. I have been around the block enough to see through these claims, especially if a pedigree is available for inspection, but when people that are new to all this start asking about "lines" and mentioning dogs that have been gone for twenty years it is obvious that someone is trying to capitalize on namedropping.
I guess it really does boil down to "buyer beware."

How would you describe the breeding on your Bella? She has a very good pedigree to use as an example.

IMO, Bella is linebred on FC Sin City Slick Ace?

[Dave Quindt]

Does the COI have to be above a certain percentage for a dog to be considered a line breeding?

Coveyrise64

Terry
A breeding technically isn't inbred unless the COI is higher than the average of the general population of the breed. Since we really don't have good pedigree data on individual breeds, anyone can claim anything they want. Then of course you have the problem of "selective analysis"; I can show you a 5 generation litter pedigree that looks like the litter is linebred on dog A when a 10 generation pedigree might show the litter is linebred on someone completely different.

People are going to believe what they want to believe. I always get a chuckle when someone posts a comment about "stud dog A" throwing some unwanted trait (soft, stubborn, run offs, etc) which then is followed by the usual posts of "my stud dog A grandson wasn't _____", without ever mentioning the other 3 grandparents role.

JMO,
Dave

[kbshorthairs]

IMO, my pup is bred nicely. I am not fluent with COI percentages. However, her breeding is a reflection of OTHER people's work, time, and investment. I am lucky enough to have been at the right place at the right time to capitalize on all the work put in by knowledgeable people. Her quality, breeding, and ability have nothing to do with me.
(In a perfect world, if she turns out, I would love to breed her back with a straw of Cutter or Ace.......wouldn't that be something???? )

Back to my original rant. Roxy Roller appears once, four generations back in Bella's pedigree. If that was the marquee dog in her pedigree, how ridiculous would it be for me to "advertise" her as being from Roxy or Billy lines??? Did Roxy Roller have some minuscule influence on this puppy? Yes. Was she linebred Roxy Roller? Of course not. Unfortunately, equally ridiculous claims are made quite often and it is frustrating to me.
Results of this misinformation seems to snowball. Random Seller breeds his dog that has "Namebrand" dog present somewhere in its pedigree and advertises "Namebrand" pups for sale. Random Customer has heard lots of good things about "Namebrand" dog and buys a pup. The next thing you know, the customer that bought that "Namebrand" puppy is posting on the internet and telling everyone that will listen that "Namebrand" throws "negative traits." :roll:

Not sure why I am so cranky today. I guess I'll just keep shooting birds over this pup and not worry about the lack of accuracy of the claims posted by ignorant people.

[kbshorthairs]

Dave, as always, posted a more eloquent version of what I was trying to communicate.

[ezzy333]

I agree this is a subject with a wide range of opinions it seems. Maybe because we have not been able to describe it concisely. I agree with the assessment that many ads are misleading when a dog appears once and it's called line breeding.

But let me throw something else in to the pot. Can we line breed to a line instead of a certain dog? If you have dogs that all go back through generations of dogs with the same bloodline then are we not linebreeding that particular line even though any one dog may not appear more than once? As an example say you have two males out of the same male and then you have litters from both of the males. If we take the females from one litter and breed back into pups from the other littler are we not continuing the line or do you think it has to be to one dog?

I tend to look for certain lines and not just one dog since the dog I would love to duplicate is too far back but I see good things I like in most of the dogs that carry that blood. What do you think?

Ezzy

[kbshorthairs]

Ezzy, I agree that breeding to a line of dogs that exhibit similar traits or traits that you want to incorporate should be the ultimate goal. Breeding choices are not what I take issue with. It is the way some breeders attempt to represent their litter as "Namebrand" bred when said genes might be so dilute that little impact remains.

[kensfishing]

IMO there aren't many dogs out there that can say they had a great deal of influence in breeding than Rusty or Clown for that matter. Any one out there that has a LINEBRED Rusty top and bottom the dog is going to alot older than anything else out there. I've been fortunate to old a couple of these dogs. They asked what lines we like and what we didn't like. I owned a son of Clown, great bird dog and very tought. Nothing would stop him except a bird. John is the same way tought as nails. Cactus was just in his way. Had a heck of time pulling it out. I've owned dogs from the early 70's some good some bad. Rusty threw some great dogs, look at his offspring and great grandsons and granddaughters. Great bird finding machines with alot of run. Too many of the new dogs are here and gone. Hope it gets better. Just my two cents.

[PkerStr8Tail]

A breeding technically isn't inbred unless the COI is higher than the average of the general population of the breed. Since we really don't have good pedigree data on individual breeds, anyone can claim anything they want. Then of course you have the problem of "selective analysis"; I can show you a 5 generation litter pedigree that looks like the litter is linebred on dog A when a 10 generation pedigree might show the litter is linebred on someone completely different.

People are going to believe what they want to believe. I always get a chuckle when someone posts a comment about "stud dog A" throwing some unwanted trait (soft, stubborn, run offs, etc) which then is followed by the usual posts of "my stud dog A grandson wasn't _____", without ever mentioning the other 3 grandparents role.

JMO,
Dave

My favorite ads are litters is pups that are titled as being from a popular well known dog but when you look at the pedigree actually that dog is 3-5 generations back. The sire and dam are Joe and Jim's dogs which were out of Bill and Frank's dogs which finally go back to the dog in the title which is one the general public recognizes. It is an obvious marketing ploy that appraently many fall for because I see alot of ads that way. If you read the article on genetics that was posted some time ago, the odds of the pups getting characteristics from the grandparents goes down quickly let alone 3-5 generations back. Unless the sire and dam have gotten many of the characteristics that the past dogs had passed onto them. If this is the case it would seem the sire and dam could stand on their own merits.

If the sire and dam used in the breeding are great then why not advertise them and not the well known dogs 3-5 generations back? Simple, Marketing. The only problems is the general public may not realize or have the knowledge to understand that the pups they are getting will have nearly zero chance of have much from that dog way back in the pedigree.

[Middlecreek]

This may or may not be a little off topic, but the name dropping I'm sure does get irritating to those that actually are linebreeding on specific dogs and/or lines. Paper is just paper, but at the same time you can't argue with the facts, some lines just have a tendancy of producing great dogs.

Linebred on HEIDE'S MIGHTY CITY SLICKER?????????
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2849


% of blood by ancestor (per the computer program)
Sire= 50%
Dam= 50%
Slick= 50%
Sanjo= 43.75%
Spot= 37.5%
numbers then drop off quite a bit after the top four


This was done off a 4 generation pedigree, I would be interested to see how the numbers would change if I had a full and accurate 10 generation pedigree?????

I have never heard about COI calculations having a standard of 10 generations, but I sure would like to see how that would effect the numbers. If someone can fill in the blanks(5 -10) for the rest of the generations I'll put them in and see what changes.

I put little value on linebreeding to any dog unless it is a producer and/or producer of producers. You can linebreed until the end of time on any certain dog, but if he/she was not a good producer and/or producer of producers, whats the point???

[kensfishing]

This may or may not be a little off topic, but the name dropping I'm sure does get irritating to those that actually are linebreeding on specific dogs and/or lines. Paper is just paper, but at the same time you can't argue with the facts, some lines just have a tendancy of producing great dogs.

Linebred on HEIDE'S MIGHTY CITY SLICKER?????????
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2849


% of blood by ancestor (per the computer program)
Sire= 50%
Dam= 50%
Slick= 50%
Sanjo= 43.75%
Spot= 37.5%
numbers then drop off quite a bit after the top four


This was done off a 4 generation pedigree, I would be interested to see how the numbers would change if I had a full and accurate 10 generation pedigree?????

I have never heard about COI calculations having a standard of 10 generations, but I sure would like to see how that would effect the numbers. If someone can fill in the blanks(5 -10) for the rest of the generations I'll put them in and see what changes.

I put little value on linebreeding to any dog unless it is a producer and/or producer of producers. You can linebreed until the end of time on any certain dog, but if he/she was not a good producer and/or producer of producers, whats the point???

Your right is the dogs don't produce what good is it. But on the other hand the owners of these dogs paid dearly to get these dogs to this level. I've tried but my budget wasn't enough to play at that high of stakes. But it still doen't say that other dogs of the same breeding can't and won't perform to a level hight degree. It costs a lot of money to play the trial game. Try it.

[Middlecreek]

This may or may not be a little off topic, but the name dropping I'm sure does get irritating to those that actually are linebreeding on specific dogs and/or lines. Paper is just paper, but at the same time you can't argue with the facts, some lines just have a tendancy of producing great dogs.

Linebred on HEIDE'S MIGHTY CITY SLICKER?????????
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2849


% of blood by ancestor (per the computer program)
Sire= 50%
Dam= 50%
Slick= 50%
Sanjo= 43.75%
Spot= 37.5%
numbers then drop off quite a bit after the top four


This was done off a 4 generation pedigree, I would be interested to see how the numbers would change if I had a full and accurate 10 generation pedigree?????

I have never heard about COI calculations having a standard of 10 generations, but I sure would like to see how that would effect the numbers. If someone can fill in the blanks(5 -10) for the rest of the generations I'll put them in and see what changes.

I put little value on linebreeding to any dog unless it is a producer and/or producer of producers. You can linebreed until the end of time on any certain dog, but if he/she was not a good producer and/or producer of producers, whats the point???

Your right is the dogs don't produce what good is it. But on the other hand the owners of these dogs paid dearly to get these dogs to this level. I've tried but my budget wasn't enough to play at that high of stakes. But it still doen't say that other dogs of the same breeding can't and won't perform to a level hight degree. It costs a lot of money to play the trial game. Try it.

I'm with ya 110% Ken. Several people have spent tens of thousands of dollars on those dogs. And the dogs of the same breeding definately have all the potential in the world to perform at the same level. My point was the same as the OP's, when someone says this litter or that is "x" bred and that dog shows up many generations back one time vs. actually linebred it diminishes the value of all the money, time, hard work, and passion those of the past have put into producing all those dogs.

[kbshorthairs]

This may or may not be a little off topic, but the name dropping I'm sure does get irritating to those that actually are linebreeding on specific dogs and/or lines. Paper is just paper, but at the same time you can't argue with the facts, some lines just have a tendancy of producing great dogs.

Linebred on HEIDE'S MIGHTY CITY SLICKER?????????
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2849


I put little value on linebreeding to any dog unless it is a producer and/or producer of producers. You can linebreed until the end of time on any certain dog, but if he/she was not a good producer and/or producer of producers, whats the point???

now THAT is what I am talking about!

[Cajun Casey]

This may or may not be a little off topic, but the name dropping I'm sure does get irritating to those that actually are linebreeding on specific dogs and/or lines. Paper is just paper, but at the same time you can't argue with the facts, some lines just have a tendancy of producing great dogs.

Linebred on HEIDE'S MIGHTY CITY SLICKER?????????
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2849


% of blood by ancestor (per the computer program)
Sire= 50%
Dam= 50%
Slick= 50%
Sanjo= 43.75%
Spot= 37.5%
numbers then drop off quite a bit after the top four


This was done off a 4 generation pedigree, I would be interested to see how the numbers would change if I had a full and accurate 10 generation pedigree?????

I have never heard about COI calculations having a standard of 10 generations, but I sure would like to see how that would effect the numbers. If someone can fill in the blanks(5 -10) for the rest of the generations I'll put them in and see what changes.

I put little value on linebreeding to any dog unless it is a producer and/or producer of producers. You can linebreed until the end of time on any certain dog, but if he/she was not a good producer and/or producer of producers, whats the point???

By the formula I use, she is double linebred off Slick II. I don't see how you can have more than 100% of a dog, though, which is why I don't use COI.

[Cajun Casey]

Line breeding doesn't have to tighten a gene pool. You can outcross on every generation and still retain the line by breeding back to the previous generation.

Exceptional individuals must be used and, often, linebreeding will actually follow the distaff tail line because females are so much more vauable as breeding material because of their naturally limited availability.

[Middlecreek]

The only way to find out if a dog is a producer is breed. IMO by line breeding the dog and tighten the gene pool you will find out if there a producer or not.

gpblitz,
Agree 100%...I am an advocate of linebreeding. I was just stating the obvious I guess

By the formula I use, she is double linebred off Slick II. I don't see how you can have more than 100% of a dog, though, which is why I don't use COI.

Cajun,
It's a relationship coefficient, not just a simple percentage of blood. It adds to the equation where at and how many times that specific ancestor appears in the pedigree along with other mathimatical stuff that's way over my head, but fun to read and learn about. I'm with you though, linebreeding is usually easy to recognize and all the computer generated stuff is just stuff. The proof is in the pudding

[Cajun Casey]

Line breeding doesn't have to tighten a gene pool. You can outcross on every generation and still retain the line by breeding back to the previous generation.[/quote]

You have outcrossed come back to the previous gen.,so you would be line breeding which would tighten your gene pool back up. The way i'm following you that's very simular to JJ's pedigree.

Top side, yes, with the Wildfire-Esser breeding representing the deviation from Slick I.

[kensfishing]

I guess you and I are on to different pages. there's no Wildfire blood behind JJ. No Esser grief or Greif in 5 gens. behind PJ Wildfire. Maybe PJ was breed to some EsserGreif dogs. Anyway nice chatten with ya.

PJ Wildfire was out of Brown L and Tell on the top and Checkmate Dandy Dude on bottom with Jigs White Smoke. With Greif.

[Dave Quindt]

PJ Wildfire was out of Brown L and Tell on the top and Checkmate Dandy Dude on bottom with Jigs White Smoke. With Greif.

PJ Wildfire was sired by Checkmate's Dandy Dude out of Wyomings Gretchen. No Brown L or Jigs White Smoke in his pedigree.

FYI,
Dave

[kensfishing]

PJ Wildfire was out of Brown L and Tell on the top and Checkmate Dandy Dude on bottom with Jigs White Smoke. With Greif.

PJ Wildfire was sired by Checkmate's Dandy Dude out of Wyomings Gretchen. No Brown L or Jigs White Smoke in his pedigree.

FYI,
Dave

Sorry but I've got a five generation pedigree from AKC and they're in there. I own a great granddaughter of his. This from AKC nothing else. Wish I could post this, but I'm not what you call computer genuis.?

[kensfishing]

Look on the bottom side.

[GrayDawg]

I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, but IMHO there needs to be a breeding COI of 25 percent (or greater) of a particular dog in another dog's pedigree in order to make any true claim that the dog in question is "line bred" to the other dog.

Less than 25 percent begins to dilute any meaningful attributes that could be gleaned from any particular dog without encountering genetic "confusion".

Rob

[Dave Quindt]

PJ Wildfire was out of Brown L and Tell on the top and Checkmate Dandy Dude on bottom with Jigs White Smoke. With Greif.

PJ Wildfire was sired by Checkmate's Dandy Dude out of Wyomings Gretchen. No Brown L or Jigs White Smoke in his pedigree.

FYI,
Dave

Sorry but I've got a five generation pedigree from AKC and they're in there. I own a great granddaughter of his. This from AKC nothing else. Wish I could post this, but I'm not what you call computer genuis.?

Take a photo of what you are looking at an email it to me at dlquindt at hotmail dot com

The AKC studbook lists PJ Wildfire being born on 4/20/75 and Jigs White Smoke on 9/20/77. If those dates are accurate, kinda hard for a dog born in '77 to be in the pedigree of a dog born in '75.

FWIW,
Dave

[Chukar12]

The AKC studbook lists PJ Wildfire being born on 4/20/75 and Jigs White Smoke on 9/20/77. If those dates are accurate, kinda hard for a dog born in '77 to be in the pedigree of a dog born in '75.

I have a thought...It looked like a sheepdog in the movie but who knows?


I do apologize, but I am on a conference call with my phone on mute, and this entertained me

[Cajun Casey]

I guess you and I are on to different pages. there's no Wildfire blood behind JJ. No Esser grief or Greif in 5 gens. behind PJ Wildfire. Maybe PJ was breed to some EsserGreif dogs. Anyway nice chatten with ya.

Sorry, I backtracked to the wrong pedigree. I don't know what JJ is. Apologies for the confusion.

[Chief_dog]

Interesting thread!

Most people would consider my dog Ace to be linebred off of the "original" slick. But his inbreeding coefficient is not all that high. I don't remember what it is, but Dave Quindt did one up for me a couple years back. Dave probably still has it somewhere, but I lost everything on that old computer. Me, personally I don't really care. When looking at a potential pup, how the parents perform in the field is much more important to me than what the papers behind them say. Who knows how accurate the pedigrees of the dogs a few generations back (before DNA) even are in the first place?

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=211

[kensfishing]

Sorry Dave I had a brain fart looking at this. It's been a long day and winter for me. Too much snow.