What holds Newb's back from Trialing?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:47 pm

I'd say the biggest factor is the cost of time.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:22 pm

For me it is:

Travel and Hotel costs.

Not really worried about looking like a fool because I would go watch before I entered and not worried about my dog not being good enough. It is just that 2-300 miles for a trial that lasts over a span of 2-3 days and then paying for a hotel and eating out all costs money I don't have right now. Most of the entry fees seem pretty reasonable. No complaints there just the rest of the cost.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:25 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Let me make one more off subject to Ruth who staed:
) dont really want someone judging us on how GOOD our dogs are..
Anytime you show or trial your dog all you are doing is paying for someone's elses opinion of your dog. The reason this is needed is you become kennel blind. When you see your dog everyday you get to the point you can see it objectively. Happens to everybody. Much the same principle as the fact that you can't judge how good looking your daughters are. Love or maybe just familiarity clouds your judgment. If you are wanting to use your dog in a breeding program it becomes important to have someone else's opinion. If not, then enjoy your dog, as I'm sure you will, and it doesn't make any difference if what you see is really what you have.

Ezzy

Now back to the scheduled program.

Ya i do see what you mean ezzy.. it would beneficial to have others opinions to lead us in the right direction and work on things that we may not have thought needed work and it will benefit the dog by doing that ...i also can see what you are saying about being kennel blind ect..believe it or not although i am new to this trial, hunt test, show world i do want to and plan to make this new pup of ours an excellent example of the breed..thanks for the insight....."now back to the scheduled program" now thats funny

...ruth

k2k · Post by **k2k** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:49 pm

I think fear of not knowing how everything is run would be the #1 for me. I like to know "the rules" and "how things should be". Having said that, one day I said what the heck, I'm doing it! I think Cam can do ok!

And I did. And so far, I've ridden horses "out west" like I always wanted to do as a kid, following pointing dogs around, and having a BLAST!

And folks took me in, helped me, hugged me when we did good, and were just all around fun to be with. We all love pointing dogs, so we always have something in common!

Karen

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:17 pm

I don't really want to kick a dead horse but that imaginary line thing that Nike was talking about/posted could have been at a retriever trial. If the dogs get to far off the "line" between where they started and the bird to retrieve they are DQ'd.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:22 pm

The way he described it if I remember correctly, the flags was suppose to separate him and another dog, but after reading a bunch of responses I am thinking he was just full of it.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:40 pm

nikegundog wrote:The way he described it if I remember correctly, the flags was suppose to separate him and another dog, but after reading a bunch of responses I am thinking he was just full of it.

As is most the stuff you hear about trialing. The thing is is that we need to educate about field trialing and this has been a good thread for that. If you go to a trial and really watch what the dogs are doing and really pay attention it all makes perfect sense. Those dogs may run far but they are just hunting intelligently as to the course. The big thing Chris is trying to do is get the people to come. I think it starts with trumping all the myths about it. A great dog laying down a perfect course is a thing of beauty. Is this game for everyone, no but I just feel like most people are afraid to do it because they hear negative things like some addressed in this thread. Field trialing is a gentlemans sport of sorts. What I'm saying if you've ever thought about it do it you'll be surprised by it all...

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:47 pm

I plan on attending one, but living in Minnesota they don't begin till the snow melts, that might be late July/early August the way things are going.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:46 am

I probably never would have attended a field trial if a local pro hadn't taken me under his wing and showed me what a class bird dog looked like and was capable of. My first few dogs didn't have what it took to compete, but it didn't stop me from joining the dog club and learning the ropes. I didn't know how to ride a horse, so I helped with the dog wagon at first. Then they needed someone to plant birds, so they filled up a bag and put me on a horse. I soon discovered that the best way to learn about field trialing is to ride as many braces as you can (you get pretty good at riding a horse too). I have spent way too much time and money field trialing, but I have met a lot of great people, seen some awesome dogs, and experienced the great outdoors in a big part of the mid-west and western US.

I was lucky enough to latch on to the right people to mentor me in the field trial game. They knew what it took to be successful, and they were willing to share it with me.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:17 am

I can't speak of experienced handlers but for a rookie like me the main thing is I can't dream to break a dog out in as short of time as a pro. My dog was born in an odd month for a derby NOV 29th 09 and quite frankly he still isn't derby broke. I didn't even know there were trials or that my dog was eligible until it was too late to run him in a derby. So now I have to wait until he is shooting dog broke which at my pace is going to be when he is 4 years old or never. I will be running him in a fun gundog stake this fall though.

gus · Post by **gus** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:44 am

I have had all the same doubts as most of those posting, but this year I am throwing it all to the wind. I have sent the premiums in for one walking trail and just as soon as I can find the premium for the one in Neb, I am going to enter another. I've only run one jr hunt test so I will probably upset my brace mate for not knowing what is going on completely but oh well. Keith

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:00 am

I'd like to attend a trial, and possibly run a dog in one at some point, but the closest one is six hours away, so that is my biggest obstacle. Another hurdle for me is the horse thing; I love running dogs, but have no interest in horses, so that eliminates all of the horseback stuff for me.

Spike · Post by **Spike** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:41 am

topher40 wrote:I would like to hear from some folks on here that havent ever trialed. What holds you back from taking the "plunge" into entering into a trial, or even attending for that matter? The reason I ask is that I have had lots of interest from what I call "newbies" about what my trial is all about, what a dog needs to preform like, cost, dates, times, how many folks will be there, do I need a horse, etc. It seems that everyone is pretty excited and interested in what is all entailed in a trial BUT folks seem VERY hesitant to actually commit to running a dog or even coming to see what its all about. I would like a litte more insight to what I can do to help "newbies" feel more at ease. I try to assure them that field trialers dont bite, and there are unbroke stakes for beginning handlers to participate in.

That being said, there are a couple of newbies that have entered dogs to run! I know this is a big step and I think everyone will have a blast. So far I havent ever had a newbie come to a trial and say they hated it and wouldnt ever be back. I hope that continues! Thanks for any and all input!!

I have no interest in it. Maybe it's because I've never seen it or tied it, or maybe it's just because if I'm out, I think I'd rather be hunting. I've always loved my dogs and don't want other stuff getting in the way.

I guessing it's like most things in life, i.e., different folks like different things. I love this country... we can all choose what suits us.

Spike

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:59 am

ckirsch wrote:I'd like to attend a trial, and possibly run a dog in one at some point, but the closest one is six hours away, so that is my biggest obstacle. Another hurdle for me is the horse thing; I love running dogs, but have no interest in horses, so that eliminates all of the horseback stuff for me.

People keep kicking the horse thing for trials, YOU DON'T NEED ONE. Come run under me at a trial and see that you get a fair shake. Walking handlers get priority. Plain and simple.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:21 pm

ckirsch wrote:I'd like to attend a trial, and possibly run a dog in one at some point, but the closest one is six hours away, so that is my biggest obstacle. Another hurdle for me is the horse thing; I love running dogs, but have no interest in horses, so that eliminates all of the horseback stuff for me.

They have a bunch of AF stuff around Trail City in the fall.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:42 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:For me it is:

Travel and Hotel costs.

Not really worried about looking like a fool because I would go watch before I entered and not worried about my dog not being good enough. It is just that 2-300 miles for a trial that lasts over a span of 2-3 days and then paying for a hotel and eating out all costs money I don't have right now. Most of the entry fees seem pretty reasonable. No complaints there just the rest of the cost.

I take my food most of the time with me. I have a little grill and bring burgers or steaks from home. As far as the hotel, it is what you make it. You cant stay at the Ritz or find something for $40. Or buy a horse trailer with living quarters.

If you have a TRUE passion for competing you'll do what you gotta do to play. As far as looking like a fool. Yep, it sucks. Pride is hard to swallow. But the good thing about it is that after attending a trial, you find out fast what a BROKE dog is. You learn quick and in no time you can look back and laugh your butt off.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:38 pm

Here are some thoughts from someone who only recently started. I remember some of the obstacles being:

Directions - Most people want to come out and watch a few trials before they ante up to run a dog. Why must a newcomer seek out an individual putting on a trial and make a phone call then right down directions which are sometimes not the best? Why can't the guys having trials print and post on a website google maps to the trial location from the nearest town of any size along with the days and times at which the event will start?

Spectating - trial promoters always say there will be plenty of horses but unless you are outgoing enough to show up and start bugging people, you are likely to be standing around at the parking area, unable to see anything. I wonder how many folks have given up because they showed up at a trial and stood around unable to see anything at all. A newbie doesn't want to come out and be a nuisance to others. There needs to be more effort to set them up with someone who can spend some time with them and explain what's going on.

Vocabulary - When a total newbie calls and he is asked what type of dog and what age usually he is told something like "Oh sure, you can run in puppy (which may or may not be run on Sunday depending on the number of entries) and you can run him in derby too" The drawing is Wednesday, just call before that and enter your dog. Then you can call after the drawing and find out what brace you're in. (Why can't the brace sheets be posted on the website too?) Newbies don't know what a puppy vs derby is, they don't know what a draw is, don't know what a brace is, etc.

For a total outsider with nobody to lead him around by the nose, it is very difficult to get enough information gathered to feel comfortable showing up and throwing down a dog. It's like most everything else, the guys with plenty of experience tend to take a lot of knowledge for granted of which new people have no understanding at all.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. I'm not trying to complain but I do think some of these things would help get more new people involved.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:00 pm

kmack-

That is EXACTLY what was I looking for! Your criticism has been very constructive. One thing to think about, you DONT need a horse, even in a horseback stake to watch. I totally understand where you are coming from.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:31 pm

I think many do not field trial because they would have to prove the ability of their dogs to independent judges.

Some folks are just not competitive, and that is fine. Enjoy your dog and hunting however it pleases you. Please just don't tell me that your dog is the best ever, if you have never competed, because you have just not seen enough good dogs to know.

I field trial to know how good my dogs are in open competition.

I do not believe that there is any place for competition in hunting, I do not keep score of birds killed, I think hunting is above that, far above. Hunting is serious, it is life and death.

However, I am highly competitive, to a fault. Therefore I field trial and shoot sporting clays, and I have had fair success at both.

But I will not compete with you in the hunting field, I will take your word that you can kill more birds.

Neil

4ShotB · Post by **4ShotB** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:14 pm

Newb here...I have been around bird dogs and bird hunting for a big portion of my life. However until I went online to start researching a bit about getting my own dog, I didn't even know they had contests for dogs! But it's like everything else, the folks that know about these things tend to underestimate how intimidating it is for a newbie to even get started...there is no "how to" manual as I can see and the lingo is intimidating with all the acronyms and such. I have no idea whatsoever what a futurity or a derby or whatever is. With that being said I will probably go over to Ames and see what I can see next week. If it's easy to fit in and figure out what to do I may expand and go see other events. If it's difficult or not much fun I'll just go back to hunting birds over bird dogs.

aeast8 · Post by **aeast8** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:25 pm

Topher
I just bought my first dog (GSP) and I am training him myself. He is 8 months and it is going great. Training has slowed down a little right now because of the unusual amounts of snowfall in KC this year. Right now he is sleeping on my lap as I type this. I would love to run him in field trials or shoot to retrieves etc. but I just don't know anything about it and when I tried to read about it on the internet none of it made any sense. I don't have a horse but I know people who do and could get one but I think I would rather do a walking trial. I can see by your prefix you are in the kansas area. Would love for someone to explain to me how they work and take me under their wing. I have wanted a bird dog my whole life and finally got one so am really ate up in it right now. To try and answer your question how to get people off the fence. For me it was not understanding the rules. Give me a clear understanding of how they work and I will be there if it suits me and Ripken, my dog. But at the end of the day hunting with Ripken is more important to me and have heard that hunting and trial dogs are different but that could be a myth.

scmelik · Post by **scmelik** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:30 pm

Here's my two cents for what its worth, lately its been worth less than that so you may not be getting much.

When I was involved with retriever field trials the biggest thing that held a new person back from being sucessful was training experience. There are a LOT of different situations a person has to train for (I am not sure how it is with pointing dogs) and you needed a ton of ground with different aspects to train on. Without those two things, training experience and available training ground a new person has a very hard time going to a trail and being competitive, so then end up giving it up because they just can't compete.

Factor in on top of that all the cost involved with a weekend trail and the distance a person has to travel it can be very intimidating.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:48 pm

Neil wrote:I think many do not field trial because they would have to prove the ability of their dogs to independent judges.

Some folks are just not competitive, and that is fine. Enjoy your dog and hunting however it pleases you. Please just don't tell me that your dog is the best ever, if you have never competed, because you have just not seen enough good dogs to know.

I field trial to know how good my dogs are in open competition.

I do not believe that there is any place for competition in hunting, I do not keep score of birds killed, I think hunting is above that, far above. Hunting is serious, it is life and death.

However, I am highly competitive, to a fault. Therefore I field trial and shoot sporting clays, and I have had fair success at both.

But I will not compete with you in the hunting field, I will take your word that you can kill more birds.

Neil

I have been competitive all my life. I played high school ball at a high level, and have always loved sports. If you want to compete I understand.

The attitude that a guy can't have a great dog if he doesn't trial is a joke. Trialing isn't the "real" thing. Not even close. It seems to me like a guy saying that he is a great basketball player because he can jump and run, but never shoots.

I have always loved competitive hunting bets. You see, it is the work between a dog and his master that is the pinnacle of work. A dog that cooperates and a hunter that can read his dog and not BLOW a shot. You see to me a hunter has to come through for his dog as well. They are a team. To be honest I like to have to make a shot to win. Guys who don't like to compete in hunting normally can't shoot well. Being a good shot is just as important as a good dog in the ethics of bird hunting. A clean kill being the goal.

I am not talking about big money. First guy back to the truck with a limit buys dinner. Just fun stuff.

If you have a great trial dog in most cases you have a dog that runs bigger than most people hunt, and they are almost always pointing released birds. A great trial dog is a great "trial" dog. A great hunting dog is a great "hunting" dog. They are like different sports. To me hunting wild birds on foot is the true test of hunter and dog. I welcome challenges in that venue. Friendly ones.

k2k · Post by **k2k** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:20 pm

Kmack wrote:Here are some thoughts from someone who only recently started. I remember some of the obstacles being:

Spectating - trial promoters always say there will be plenty of horses but unless you are outgoing enough to show up and start bugging people, you are likely to be standing around at the parking area, unable to see anything. I wonder how many folks have given up because they showed up at a trial and stood around unable to see anything at all. A newbie doesn't want to come out and be a nuisance to others. There needs to be more effort to set them up with someone who can spend some time with them and explain what's going on.

+ eleventy-seven! I'm kind of a shy person (people are always shocked when they hear me say this

) but I just went for it because I really wanted to try it. Rich Heaton and his dad let me ride one of their horses last March at the Pacific Coast Championship and I never looked back. I went to trials and bugged people to let me ride their horse (I'm a good rider. tho). Now I'm totally hooked and trying to get enough $ to get and keep a horse, and the accoutrements. Anyone got a good horse, or not so good horse,they'd like to give a newbie?

I am totally addicted.

Karen

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:50 pm

Birddogz wrote: I have been competitive all my life. I played high school ball at a high level, and have always loved sports. If you want to compete I understand.

The attitude that a guy can't have a great dog if he doesn't trial is a joke. Trialing isn't the "real" thing. Not even close. It seems to me like a guy saying that he is a great basketball player because he can jump and run, but never shoots. I have always loved competitive hunting bets. You see, it is the work between a dog and his master that is the pinnacle of work. A dog that cooperates and a hunter that can read his dog and not BLOW a shot. You see to me a hunter has to come through for his dog as well. They are a team. To be honest I like to have to make a shot to win. Guys who don't like to compete in hunting normally can't shoot well. Being a good shot is just as important as a good dog in the ethics of bird hunting. A clean kill being the goal.

I am not talking about big money. First guy back to the truck with a limit buys dinner. Just fun stuff.

If you have a great trial dog in most cases you have a dog that runs bigger than most people hunt, and they are almost always pointing released birds. A great trial dog is a great "trial" dog. A great hunting dog is a great "hunting" dog. They are like different sports. To me hunting wild birds on foot is the true test of hunter and dog. I welcome challenges in that venue. Friendly ones.

It is crap like this that puts the newbies off. Those that are so arrogant and full of themselves that not only do they not know that they don't know, but they refuse to try to know as knowledge is threatening to their self perceived status.

NO ONE has ever said that you cannot have a great dog if you don't trial, but if you don't showcase your dog in a public venue with independent judges against others of their kind then it is only your personal opinion about how great your dog is - just like every parent whose kid is going to be the next Micheal Jordan even if they are only 5' 11" tall. Their kid is still the greatest ever, darn coaches just wouldn't give him a chance, the minor leagues are all political, etc. etc.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:02 pm

Birddogz wrote: I have been competitive all my life. I played high school ball at a high level, and have always loved sports. If you want to compete I understand.

The attitude that a guy can't have a great dog if he doesn't trial is a joke. Trialing isn't the "real" thing. Not even close. It seems to me like a guy saying that he is a great basketball player because he can jump and run, but never shoots. I have always loved competitive hunting bets. You see, it is the work between a dog and his master that is the pinnacle of work. A dog that cooperates and a hunter that can read his dog and not BLOW a shot. You see to me a hunter has to come through for his dog as well. They are a team. To be honest I like to have to make a shot to win. Guys who don't like to compete in hunting normally can't shoot well. Being a good shot is just as important as a good dog in the ethics of bird hunting. A clean kill being the goal.

I am not talking about big money. First guy back to the truck with a limit buys dinner. Just fun stuff.

If you have a great trial dog in most cases you have a dog that runs bigger than most people hunt, and they are almost always pointing released birds. A great trial dog is a great "trial" dog. A great hunting dog is a great "hunting" dog. They are like different sports. To me hunting wild birds on foot is the true test of hunter and dog. I welcome challenges in that venue. Friendly ones.

Birddogz -

You post reminded me of something that happend about forty years ago. I was hunting on my uncles' family farm in western KY with my dad and uncle. My uncle's dad was well into his seventies , but still pretty spry and he had a couple of pretty fair pointers out behind the barn. He was also a jokester. We had come in for lunch one day together with two of my uncle's brothers and we were congratulating each other for a fine morning's shooting. I hadn't done quite so well in the shooting department, so I didn't say much.

Well Mr. Dowdy senior listened for a while and then said the following(as close as I can recollect): " You boys seem pretty all fired please with yourselves. Just how many shells did you go through this morning? "(At which I hung my head)

He continued: "I took 'ol Chippy after you boys left out because your mama said she wanted to make quail and gravy for breakfast tomorrow. He pointed the covey out by the tobacco shed. I stepped back and I gave them both barrels. "

He then proceeded to pull thirteen or fourteen quail out of his hunting coat. It was his property, he had fed those birds all year and he was not one for wasting time, effort or shotshells. There was no question but that he was "the winner of the day."

There was a time when I too measured the success of the day by the weight of the gamebag.

BTW, the quail and gravy WAS delicious.

RayG

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:09 pm

That is a good story.

I don't necessarily measure a day afield being a success only if I kill a lot of birds, but it sure as heck doesn't hurt!

That is the goal.

Actually the most important factor is the company you keep on a hunt.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:36 pm

by RayGubernat

You post reminded me of something that happend about forty years ago.

Ray,

You are a gentleman.
The best conversations, brandy and cigars are reserved for those that have grown to understand that how, is more important than how many. Your anecdotal lessons are often a fine reminder. Thank you

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:39 pm

If you have a great trial dog in most cases you have a dog that runs bigger than most people hunt, and they are almost always pointing released birds. A great trial dog is a great "trial" dog. A great hunting dog is a great "hunting" dog. They are like different sports. To me hunting wild birds on foot is the true test of hunter and dog. I welcome challenges in that venue. Friendly ones.

I had no idea that how many birds you shoot is how you know if you had a good day hunting. I've had what I thought were good days when I didn't even carry a gun, but had a camera instead. I think you need to break down what you are really doing in the field into three areas. Hunting, finding, and shooting. When you do it that way you can see shooting has nothing to do with hunting so I have never used how many birds I killed as the measure of the quality of a hunt. and I like to think my dogs do a better job of hunting and finding and if they do well then I have had a great hunt. You wouldn't find me in the field with out a dog since they are the main ingredient in a good day afield.

Ezzy

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:49 pm

"People keep kicking the horse thing for trials, YOU DON'T NEED ONE. Come run under me at a trial and see that you get a fair shake. Walking handlers get priority. Plain and simple."

That's good to know. I've visited some of the field trial forums and read guys' complaints about walking handlers holding everything up, and how frustrated they were to get braced with someone on foot. Last thing I would want to do would be to drive a day to get to a trial where I'm a nuisance.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:10 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
ckirsch wrote:I'd like to attend a trial, and possibly run a dog in one at some point, but the closest one is six hours away, so that is my biggest obstacle. Another hurdle for me is the horse thing; I love running dogs, but have no interest in horses, so that eliminates all of the horseback stuff for me.
They have a bunch of AF stuff around Trail City in the fall.

How could I learn more about the Trail City trials? That's only three or four hours away. Might be a good opportunity for me to check out.

Kmack made some great points. It would be pretty intimidating for a rookie to show up at a trial without knowing much about them, and then having to pester people for help. Picture a new guy pulling up to his first trial with a single dog kennel in the back of his truck, and seeing all of the big truck/trailer combos with seven or eight dogs staked out. Might feel a little out of place.

I recall getting started in NAVHDA, and even that was a little intimidating at first. I was fortunate in that when I called the test director for information, he was very helpful and encouraging, explained the test in detail, and even invited me to come down and train for a weekend prior to the test. That made a big difference at the time. I suppose a new handler should just take a deep breath, jump in, and try to learn as much as possible. The second trial would probably be a lot more fun....

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:13 pm

ckirsch wrote:"People keep kicking the horse thing for trials, YOU DON'T NEED ONE. Come run under me at a trial and see that you get a fair shake. Walking handlers get priority. Plain and simple."

That's good to know. I've visited some of the field trial forums and read guys' complaints about walking handlers holding everything up, and how frustrated they were to get braced with someone on foot. Last thing I would want to do would be to drive a day to get to a trial where I'm a nuisance.

Friend of mine started field trialing without a horse. He'd pull in with his Britt setting in the front seat of the truck and then start looking for a horse to borrow. Here take mine, no take mine, plenty of offers. About the second trail he went to he took a first in the Amatuer Gun Dog. Was entered in the Open on Sunday, those offers disapeared and turned into excuses. Went to the line for his brace and the Judge asked where his horse was, he cast the dog off and then picked him up. I doubt they saw him as a nuisance, more like a threat.

Coveyrise64

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:44 pm

Please just don't tell me that your dog is the best ever, if you have never competed, because you have just not seen enough good dogs to know.

Then a avid hunter put his two cents in: and gets this response:

It is crap like this that puts the newbies off. Those that are so arrogant and full of themselves that not only do they not know that they don't know, but they refuse to try to know as knowledge is threatening to their self perceived status.

Thats the thing that turns so many people off. Birddogz was right on the money when he said there is a difference between hunting and trialing. And then to brush off hunters by saying "you have just not seen enough good dogs to know". I'm sorry but I live close to some of the best pheasant hunting in the country, I've hunted with tons of people and we would have to drive over a hundred miles to shoot a tame, planted, pheasant at a trial (to prove that we've seen a good dog). And then someone makes that arrogant statement.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:55 pm

Trials are a good place to meet people, talk about dogs, hear about past dogs, get advice, watch dogs run, learn where you need to help your dog improve, drink a few beers and have some good food.

Now as far as expense....

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:12 am

You know the dumb thing in all this is that I'm sure all of us "trialers" were hunters long before we ever went to a trial. Field trialing is a sport there are winners and losers in any sport. There are not winners and losers in everyday life. All this thread is turning into is a meat dog versus "trial" dog thing again...

Chris wanted to learn ways to push people of or over the fence and get them to actually come to his trial. One guy gets on here and now we are fighting.

Guys I foot hunt my trial dogs as do many friends of mine. We dont own hunting dogs and field trial dogs. They are the same. Nobody bites at field trials. It is actually friendly competition with people helping others and sometimes beat themselves by helping you win. There are always horses to borrow.

The thing I like best about going to a field trial is that its a place where I feel like I belong. Liked minded people and we all care about the same thing... good dogs.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:18 am

Well spoken and on that note I will say that I took a first step today by contacting a local club(110 miles) and talked to a guy about what I need to do to get ready for their next Hunt Test. Might have to get my feet wet.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:28 am

nikegundog wrote:
Please just don't tell me that your dog is the best ever, if you have never competed, because you have just not seen enough good dogs to know.
Then a avid hunter put his two cents in: and gets this response:

It is crap like this that puts the newbies off. Those that are so arrogant and full of themselves that not only do they not know that they don't know, but they refuse to try to know as knowledge is threatening to their self perceived status.
Thats the thing that turns so many people off. Birddogz was right on the money when he said there is a difference between hunting and trialing. And then to brush off hunters by saying "you have just not seen enough good dogs to know". I'm sorry but I live close to some of the best pheasant hunting in the country, I've hunted with tons of people and we would have to drive over a hundred miles to shoot a tame, planted, pheasant at a trial (to prove that we've seen a good dog). And then someone makes that arrogant statement.

Sorry nike but your "avid hunter" is someone who knows absolutely zero about trials and trialing and yet is very willing to arrogantly dismiss them. I am an avid hunter. I used to be the "birdogz" avid hunter. I despised trials and dogs of their breeding because I had been thoroughly indoctrinated by the popular press with the same ridiculous BS that birdogz now spouts and I used to. Through a twist of fate I became involved with some trials, I opened my eyes and I took the time to actually learn what they were, what the underlying precepts were, the philosophy and the practice.

Birdogz was right on the money when he said there is a difference between hunting and trialing. Hunting is not trialing. But he was absolutely wrong about the dogs. There is no difference between the best of trial dogs and the best of hunting dogs.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:46 am

My point being is I also read the comment and was a little taken back by that comment and when he responded he got ripped apart. I hunt a lot in South Dakota where there was 1.7 million pheasants harvested yet there is only 1 field trial in the state. He may or may not know anything about field trials but to say someone who only hunts has never seen a good dog was the one who first became dismissive. He was the one that prompted the response from birddogz yet everyone jumped on birddogz.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:52 am

To the original topic - I have always considered that it would be nice if a trial giving club could enlist enough manpower that they could have a meet and greet person - the help desk as it were. Generally the new folks coming out to a trial to "check it out" because they are apprehensive about jumping in with both feet know nothing about anything when they get there. Everyone there is preoccupied and involved with the trial itself. Running their dog, organizing birds/etc. - no one has time to grab ahold of the newbie and show them the lay of the land. It was always my goal and intention when I was FTC, but alas, there simply were not that many people available in the club.

One of the things that I found very helpful at the first trial I attended was that the club had a supply of the AFTCA "Guidelines to Field Trial Procedure and Judicial Practice" which were given free to anyone requiring one (which was anyone new to the game).

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:10 am

nikegundog wrote: but to say someone who only hunts has never seen a good dog

Perspective, nike, perspective. No one said that someone who only hunts has never seen a good dog, rather it would be more like someone who has not seen dogs in head to head, winner takes all, competition will never know if he has seen a good dog.

I can use myself as the illustration. As I already described, myself and my friends "knew" about trials and those trial dogs. We had hunting dogs. We had GOOD hunting dogs, from the best of hunting dog stock (self proclaimed by the friends and acquaintances of those selling the dogs). Now it so happened that I acquired what was to become something much more than a GOOD hunting dog. We (my friends and I) had owned a number of dogs between us and we knew what a good dog was, but this dog..... this dog was something special. She was the once in a lifetime dog. Through some bits of happenstance I ended up at a trial to observe and I found my interest piqued. This dog of mine that did things that no other dog we had seen before was being displayed in front of me time and time again. I went back to another trial and I watched. As I watched I found that my "once in a lifetime" dog was becoming rather ordinary. I competed with her, I even placed once. Everyone had a dog like mine - but some of these folks had a dog that had something special..... something that stood them out from the rest.... something that made them a "once in a lifetime" dog.

I still hunt and hunt hard. But the dogs I hunt with today have higher instinct and greater physical abilities. They are better trained and more experienced. Because I went to a trial.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:28 am

I think your missing my point completely. What I was trying to say is if your trying to get people to come to a trial ,don't be making statements that offend the very people you are trying to draw in. If I were to make the statement (true or untrue) "If you've never been hunting but just been to field trials, you've never seen a good dog" and you've never been hunting you would probably take offense to that statement.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:09 am

I haven't missed any point you are attempting to make. I don't agree with the view you are taking. You are misquoting the original statement and are making it into something it wasn't. The original statement "Please just don't tell me that your dog is the best ever, if you have never competed, because you have just not seen enough good dogs to know." does not say, nor does it imply, that you have not seen a good dog, nor does it say, or imply that you do not have a good dog. It simply states that without extensive experience in head to head competition you would have no basis on which to make a judgement of "best ever". If indeed you have put the "time in the saddle" so to speak, you will not need to make the statement of "best ever", for your dogs record will say it for you.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:40 am

How do you get the Best Hunting dog ever in your dogs records? I guess you lost me on that.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:05 am

Thanks to Mr. Listoe for bailing me out, it was not my intention to offend, but only explain why I think many avid hunters do not field trial.

I just do not buy the expense thing, I have hunted and field trialed for over 40 years, and I have spent way more money on hunting.

Now as to the number of dogs I see:

Hunting Dogs -
In a typical year, in a 100 days of hunting I will see may be 20 dogs that are not my own. I think that above average for most hunters, as I enjoy watching others dogs, and often invite them and leave my dogs in the box.

Field Trial Dogs -
Most years I attend upwards of 30 trials, some weekend, some major championships, some as handler, judge, or reporter, most just in the gallery. So in a bit over 100 days in the saddle I will see well over 1,500 dogs!

Now if you are seeing a 1,000+ hunting dogs, I correct my post to include you in having an accurate measure of a dog's ability in the field.

I have no doubt that many of you have dogs of which you are very proud, and that is really all that is important.

And Ray, thanks for the smiles, it put things in perspective,

Neil

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:56 am

I was just thinking about a couple things, tail related. Why couldn't there be a handicapped stake for dogs with bad tails. I have seen a lot of good dogs that simply can't win only because they have bad tails and a lot of people that can only have a dog or two, you end up with a dog with a bad tail you can't part with and you are out of trialing for a while. I wish the dogs didn't have to have a 12 O tail either, as long as it is at least parallel and poker straight, I like it. It would open up the door to more dogs.

Also could we put the myth to rest that trial dogs can't hunt wild birds. We have 4 trials in my small province a year. All are on wild birds. I think in the past they actually shot the birds in some of the trials but it wasn't sustainable. You have a limited number of trial grounds and if you go run 30 dogs there and each handler kills 2 birds per dog, how long is that going to be a trial ground. I haven't heard of any trialers whose most time consuming part of training was working their dogs on wild birds. I haven't heard of many competitive ones that didn't chase wild birds at least 100 days a year. At these trials the dog has to produce wild birds for the gun, you shoot them with a starter pistol but if you are confident enough with your shot, you can walk away from that and say I would have got him, you just don't get to eat it.

bhulisa · Post by **bhulisa** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:33 am

It seems to me that there are some big issues that keep newbies from trying out trials, and these have been mentioned by you all already: money, time (time is money, too), rather do other things, intimidated by potential failure or by all the buzzwords, fear of the unknown, a general lack of real information about trials.

Some things you can't do anything about, if someone thinks they have not got the time or money there is not much you can do to convince them otherwise, likewise if someone just isn't interested you aren't going to convince them otherwise.

But for those that have even a glimmer of interest, then information seems to be a key factor. The GDF has a wide readership/membership and would be a perfect place to make information available. I mean specific information, like starting a new column/topic "The Beginners Guide to Field Trials", perhaps as a Hall of Fame topic? How does a trial run, what is required of the dogs, definitions of key words/phrases, brief judging guideline etc. This would probably require the moderators to control the content in order to keep it from degrading into a "hunting dog vs trial dog" or "xyz is a much better trial format than abc" fistfight and to keep it truly informative about trial specifics. Maybe even a few of you members could offer to cover specific topics; "AF trials" , "AKC trials" , "Field Trial Stakes", "Field Trial Terminology", "How does Field Trial Performance relate to Hunting Performance", "Where to find out what field trials are held in your area" etc etc. I'm sure you get my drift.

Here are two links that newbies can refer to, and they are the kind of thing I am referring to:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1974
(covers some broad aspects of AKC pointing trials)

http://www.pineyrunkennel.com/field_tri ... rticle.htm
(relates some of the field trial rules to hunting situations)

Perhaps something like this might help?? What say the rest of you....
Trudi

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:09 am

I have hunted with dogs that have placed in numerous trials, and watch them blow pheasants out of a field at 400 yards. It goes both ways. There is this belief that to know a great dog you must trial. To know a great trial dog you must trial. To know a great hunting dog you must hunt. I've said it a million times, I have friends that are ruffed grouse guides and pheasant guides on only wild birds. Their dogs are superior to any trial dog I have ever seen. There was a trial run in Wisconsin a couple of years ago where the winning dog had 3 finds. My dogs and my friends dogs had around 4 times that many on almost the exact same ground. There is a difference. I would love to take an all age national champ and break a wing on a rooster, give him a 2-3 minute head start and watch that AA dog track him 400 yards, and then fetch him, and bring him to hand. It simply isn't going to happen. Heck, trial guys don't like their dogs to put their noses down. Trial guys are into rules and looks. That is fine, but it doesn't help you in a pheasant cattail thicket. Hunting is how you judge hunting dogs.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:02 am

nikegundog wrote:How do you get the Best Hunting dog ever in your dogs records? I guess you lost me on that.

I guess I did not articulate clearly. By what measure are you claiming Best Hunting dog ever? As I already outlined the absolutely best hunting dog ever that I owned and had been seen by anyone I encountered while hunting in the field was a rather ordinary dog. I now run with dogs of that ability all the time or I don't keep them. Was I disappointed to learn that my dog was not as good as I thought she was? NO. I was very proud of that dog and still am. She provided many hours of enjoyment in the field for me and my buddies. So, when Joe Hunter starts saying that his dog is the "best ever" I take that information with a grain of salt. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If the dog handler for King Ranch in Texas showed me a dog and said that this dog is the best he has ever run I would take the dog home in a minute.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:08 am

Birddogz wrote:I have hunted with dogs that have placed in numerous trials, and watch them blow pheasants out of a field at 400 yards. It goes both ways. There is this belief that to know a great dog you must trial. To know a great trial dog you must trial. To know a great hunting dog you must hunt. I've said it a million times, I have friends that are ruffed grouse guides and pheasant guides on only wild birds. Their dogs are superior to any trial dog I have ever seen. There was a trial run in Wisconsin a couple of years ago where the winning dog had 3 finds. My dogs and my friends dogs had around 4 times that many on almost the exact same ground. There is a difference. I would love to take an all age national champ and break a wing on a rooster, give him a 2-3 minute head start and watch that AA dog track him 400 yards, and then fetch him, and bring him to hand. It simply isn't going to happen. Heck, trial guys don't like their dogs to put their noses down. Trial guys are into rules and looks. That is fine, but it doesn't help you in a pheasant cattail thicket. Hunting is how you judge hunting dogs.

You've never watched AA FC/AFC tear cattails apart to get to a rooster? I've got several. We've also won more of these 20 minute three bird time trials here at the preserve in NE. than the so called great hunting dog they put on the ground.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:12 am

aeast8 wrote:Topher
I just bought my first dog (GSP) and I am training him myself. He is 8 months and it is going great. Training has slowed down a little right now because of the unusual amounts of snowfall in KC this year. Right now he is sleeping on my lap as I type this. I would love to run him in field trials or shoot to retrieves etc. but I just don't know anything about it and when I tried to read about it on the internet none of it made any sense. I don't have a horse but I know people who do and could get one but I think I would rather do a walking trial. I can see by your prefix you are in the kansas area. Would love for someone to explain to me how they work and take me under their wing. I have wanted a bird dog my whole life and finally got one so am really ate up in it right now. To try and answer your question how to get people off the fence. For me it was not understanding the rules. Give me a clear understanding of how they work and I will be there if it suits me and Ripken, my dog. But at the end of the day hunting with Ripken is more important to me and have heard that hunting and trial dogs are different but that could be a myth.

I live north of KC a couple of hours. Your'e more than welcome to come up and I'll help. There's a trial at Branched Oak next month and there's several people from KC. that will be there. If you want to learn come on.. By the way my first trials I stayed in the back of my truck, ate packed lunches, then a tent and so on. It's the greatest thing on earth.