Gun Dog Forum

I would like to hear from some folks on here that havent ever trialed. What holds you back from taking the "plunge" into entering into a trial, or even attending for that matter? The reason I ask is that I have had lots of interest from what I call "newbies" about what my trial is all about, what a dog needs to preform like, cost, dates, times, how many folks will be there, do I need a horse, etc. It seems that everyone is pretty excited and interested in what is all entailed in a trial BUT folks seem VERY hesitant to actually commit to running a dog or even coming to see what its all about. I would like a litte more insight to what I can do to help "newbies" feel more at ease. I try to assure them that field trialers dont bite, and there are unbroke stakes for beginning handlers to participate in.


That being said, there are a couple of newbies that have entered dogs to run! I know this is a big step and I think everyone will have a blast. So far I havent ever had a newbie come to a trial and say they hated it and wouldnt ever be back. I hope that continues! Thanks for any and all input!!

Gonna make my first one the big one. Gonna take my dad over to Ames, doubt we get to see much as far as the trial but want to take him to the museum,plantation etc.

Fear of making myself look like a fool, I don't like to do anything unless I'm 100% sure i understand it and every time Ezzy and I make plans to go watch we get days like today were the weather is to bad to travel the hour or more we would have to go to get to a Trial.

I know, they got their first dog from a shelter and it wasn't registred.

...just one thing. Birddogz has not yet produced a premium.

Hi Chris,

I'm one of those who have asked about trialing. My main issue is that I don't have my pup yet. He had an accident with his momma biting him, and the breeder has been nursing him through this time. He's almost healed up, so I'm hoping by next weekend to bring him home. He's 12 weeks old right now, so he'd be a little too young anyway. I plan on coming to watch if the weather cooperates to see what it's all about.

From my personal perspective, I think that maybe what might scare off some newbies is the "politics" that go on at an event (whether it actually exists or not). I've seen it in cattle shows and horse shows, so I imagine some goes on at trials. I just want to have fun with my dog, and don't really want to pursue a championship, I don't have the money or the time for that right now.

My French Britt will be registered with UKC, but can be dual-registered with AKC. I haven't decided yet if I will do so, and from what I've been learning their games formats are different, so I want to check out the different sanctioned events before I decide which avenue, if any, to take.

It's also very difficult for me to be away from home on Sundays, as our family is very active in our church, teaching Sunday School, running the sound board and computer, our kids in youth group, etc. God comes first, then family, then the rest of our life. So, Sunday events are pretty much out for me.

Cheryl

We did take our youngest dog to two walking puppy stakes this past Spring, and we did okay in earning one placement, for never having seen a FT before. But then we all know that is not that complicated a level for a handler. While I do intend to try some more trials, after my dog is broke, these are some honest thoughts that roll through my head.

I am a little intimidated about if my dog has what it takes, even though she has FT champs in her background. Might not make sense to some, but if I'm hearing this pedigree is the best, FT dogs are the best, dogs gotta run like it's butt is on fire 500 yards out, 12 o'clock tail, etc--it makes me wonder about why bother to take my little ol hunting dog. Kinda like a self-fulfilling prophecy where you (not meant at anyone in particular) want folks to enter, but I hear so much smack being talked, that I feel like the underdog before I show up.

Even though I've always ridden horses, I don't have one to ride now, and I really do not want to borrow a horse. At the few HT and FTs I've been too, I've seen some bad equine behavior, and I know from my own experience that no horse is 100% predictable 100% of the time. I do have a location near me, where I can watch a lot of a walking FT from a hilltop, so that's probably my best bet.

If my dog messes up, how p.o.'d is my bracemate gonna get, if it causes their dog to mess up? You could tell me all day long, that it's happened to everyone, and they'll understand...but I know how catty people can be just from showing dogs. Could someone tell me if I have a knife in my back?

I fully agree with Gittr too, about fear of making myself (or my dog ) look like a fool.

Chukar12 wrote:...just one thing. Birddogz has not yet produced a premium.

It sure has gotten quiet on the ND front.

Ezzy

#1 The horse thing. don't have one, don't have access to one. I know there are walking stakes, but there isn't alot of them.

#2 Travel distance. Most of the ones here in CA are a 7 hour drive from me. kind of hard to justify a 7 hour drive for one AWP stake. however, there are a few trials coming up that have 4 walking stakes AWP,AWD,OWP,OWD. I will be there for those

#3 Looking like a complete fool. I have however excepted my lot in life and will enter some trials inspite of ME

Don't get him started we all know it's not gonna happen,so we don't need to hear how it SHOULD all over again.

A lot of things play into it.

1)Travel and expenses.
2)Don't have a horse, which there are walking stakes, but moving out west there are fewer of them.
3)Who do you trial w/ AKC/AF or do you want to play in the other games.
4)would just rather spend my time hunting or training my dogs.
5)the time that it really takes to campaign a dog correctly, is more than I have.
6)not to open up a can of worms, but for my chosen breeds, don't want the same characteristics that are needed to win in FT's.
7)one of my dogs (PP) can not actually compete in any FT's

I do attend FT's when the are close by and even help work trials whenever I am around. But the dogs that I always seem to like the best do not when, just looking for different things.

brandon

Chris, I think trials are a form of competion between people and not dogs. I love the friendly competion but have no real desire to have a trial dog to hunt with. I love to watch them run but its nice to have them a lot closer when we get in the heavy cover. Plus the wide ranging dogs are not the advantage for pheasants that they are for most other birds.

And the main reason that keeps me and most other people from partaking is the cost. Between the cost and the tine you have to devote to it, there is a problem fitting it in to the average family life. Fun to see but with a house full of kids how do you spend half of the weekends during the year let alone two hours or so every day to your hobby while the kids are going to their activities with out you and there isn't any money for their education. And we wont talk about their mom who might like to go with you but can't and is stuck with all of the responsibilities of raising the family while you are playing with the dogs.

Add them up, time, cost, and completely ignoring any other things going on over the weekend is going to play a large part in not participating.

JMO

Ezzy

I am relatively new to trialing, my first was like 14-15 months ago. I too have been a life long hunter and was intimidated by what I needed to do. It kinda works this way, they suck you in with those puppy and derby stakes, you cut em loose and watch them romp around doing what pretty much comes naturally. The frustration rears its ugly head when they have you all jacked up and you start entering broke dog stakes. Handling and training become far more critical factors. However, realize that in an amatuer broke dog stake about 30% on average will not get around clean, in an open it is slightly more. Sometimes it is the last man standing, and every dog will have its day.

If you have resources you can use a pro and your learning curve/success goes up quickly. I have been to a number of GSP trials and lots more Brittany trials and have not once felt like an outsider, people are warm and understanding of mistakes. Like any other walk of life, if you can be a reasonably good listener, with a dose of humility you will find more help than you need. You will find people compulsively committed to dogs and their passion will help people learn and soon most people are in some portion of the inner circle and contributing. As corny as it sounds...the only thing to fear is fear itself.

BTW...Brad 27, the GSP contingent is strong in Ca. The Merrel's and Carl Porter are pros pretty close to you, and at most of the major trials a wrangler/handler named Terry Zygalinski will have horse for rent....and it is a durned site cheaper for those getting started than buying all that stuff, that is, according to Mrs. Chukar 12.

Chris, I think trials are a form of competion between people and not dogs. I love the friendly competion but have no real desire to have a trial dog to hunt with. I love to watch them run but its nice to have them a lot closer when we get in the heavy cover. Plus the wide ranging dogs are not the advantage for pheasants that they are for most other birds.

And the main reason that keeps me and most other people from partaking is the cost. Between the cost and the tine you have to devote to it, there is a problem fitting it in to the average family life. Fun to see but with a house full of kids how do you spend half of the weekends during the year let alone two hours or so every day to your hobby while the kids are going to their activities with out you and there isn't any money for their education. And we wont talk about their mom who might like to go with you but can't and is stuck with all of the responsibilities of raising the family while you are playing with the dogs.

Add them up, time, cost, and completely ignoring any other things going on over the weekend is going to play a large part in not participating.

JMO

Ezzy

My biggest reason is I am an outdoorsman that enjoys hunting and fishing almost everything. In March and April I snow goose hunt. In April and May, I Turkey hunt. At the end of May I travel to SC and Florida to fish until the beginning of August. In Mid-August is early goose. September 1st is opening day of dove. In September I hunt sharpies and huns. At the end of September is ducks/geese regular season. Until December. In early October phez starts. Deer in November. Ice fishing in December-March. This isn't counting trips to Saskatchewan or Kansas. There is no time.

I would never trial if I could actually be hunting or fishing. Like I have said, I would be interested in a late season trial, but I doubt anyone would attend. I don't think many could take the conditions/want to take the conditions. There would be snow, and lots of cold. The travel to get to the trial would be very questionable. Lots of snow, blowing, below zero temps., and hauling trailers, just not a good combo. I have been to quite a few trials, just didn't get me fired up like a rock hard point that I get to flush/kill/see retrieved/and eat. Wild birds of course.

The unkown I would say. I am going to watch my first one here in Mo. in March so who knows what that will bring. I am getting my pup in a couple weeks and figured I would start learning a little about trials. Heck I did'nt even know they had trials around my area but with the suggestion of a few on this forum I joined a Brittany club that trials and has alot of helpful members. That is my 2 cents, ( The Unkown)!

"The fault, Dear Brutus, is in ourselves, and not in our stars, that we are underlings. " Julius Caesar, by William Shakespeare, Act I, Scene ii, ll. 104-141

"... the only thing we have to fear is fear itself -- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." FDR's first Inaugural Address

We all have excuses, reasons for not doing things. The barriers are too high, it costs too much, we might get embarrassed, we might fail, the dog ate my homework, will you look at gas prices these days. Despite barriers, someone gets elected to be President of the US every four years, there is a CEO leading every company, and every National Champion is owned and/or run by someone, indeed, every winner of every trial is also. Who dares to be that someone?

I know for my husband and i we have 5 daughters and could hardly find time to go for walks with the dogs in the past because he was on midnights..now we own our own company and can take more time away and midnights arent an issue!!..we are for the first time going to become members of the GRANDRIVER CHAPTER here in canada but i have had my thoughts of number 1) dont really want someone judging us on how GOOD our dogs are.. number 2) what is the expense of the traveling and entries ect.. number 3) its almost like standing in front of the class to read your speech and get judged or talked about..never really cared for that much ..and lastly correct me if im wrong but we have taught OUR pups/dogs to work closer so to take them to a trial and have them cast way out would confuse them ...i mean what happens then when we take them out and they want to work further out ?..do we reel em in?... we are going for it, going to give it a try both in the field and the show ring with our pup coming on the 15th!!..I will put my 2 cents in when we go......ruth

Sometimes it is the last man standing, and every dog will have its day.

Man, that's the whole foundation of my program!! Hope that the best ones screw up then try to be the best of the worst!! I'm stickin' with it - beats buying new dogs and having to work harder!! Personally, I show up expecting to lose and embarrass myself and usually meet my expectations so I'm rarely disappointed!! It's all about perspective - it's easy to jump over a low bar!!

thicken that hide up Ruth...not only are they going to judge that dog to an established standard, you are going to pay them to do it. However, when you get home or to the field with them, your opinion will and should be all that matters.

Thanks for the responses folks, but I really dont care why you dont or wont. I am talking about folks that are calling me and interested in this, but then cant/wont take the plunge. It seems like the general consensus is "I dont want to look like an idiot". I understand that and to this day I dont either! Although I seem to be pretty good at it! Anywho....... What would help folks to understand what I am telling them is the truth? You cant look like an idiot, especially in an unbroke stake! Last year in the Gundog we had 8 dogs run, not a SINGLE one was broke and EVERY one of them chased! Im not pulling anyones chain and would hate to misrepresent a stake or circumstance. As for horses, this is an AF walking stake. If you want to watch off of HB then your more than welcome to borrow a horse and I have even offered mine and I know there are other guys that will be here that and "extra".

Man, that's the whole foundation of my program!! Hope that the best ones screw up then try to be the best of the worst!! I'm stickin' with it - beats buying new dogs and having to work harder!! Personally, I show up expecting to lose and embarrass myself and usually meet my expectations so I'm rarely disappointed!! It's all about perspective - it's easy to jump over a low bar!!

I hear you Doc, I think we had 26 starters in the ABC Chukar Championships last week: lost two dogs, one dog took itself out and had 23 around clean ...the judges claim they split hairs on 13 dogs. 4 days later, in an AAA stake we had twenty dogs, most of whom were in the aforementioned, had two placements and two withheld because ther was nothing...

That gives me an idea...my next dog is going to be Spanish Corral's Withheld ...

I will be a newbie to trialing here this sping. I have been to watch a few and enjoy them however i feel that being a newbie to these trial will be tough.. Main reason is for the politics, i know it goes on and have seen it, if your not in the main "group" the objective scores by the judges can be swayed.. not saying it aways happens, but its there.. I will be running both the UFTA and trials ths sping with my pup.. The other reason behind me not getting into the trials until this point is that my two dogs i hunt now would not be allowed to enter, i knew this prior to getting them but just never really had any interest to trial until now.

I have always rather HUNT or TRAIN than trial. Many say a good trial dog will not hunt well so i decided to hunt. I konw now that you can have the best of both worlds with good training and effort. Regarless of politics however, if you go with a bada$$ dog, you wont be judged otherwise.

Regards

I love the thought of trialing but the some of the rules don't apply to the way I hunt pheasants. I also hear a lot o complaints on this forum about the fairness of the judges and so many point being style points. When I go pheasant hunting, by the end of day you always know who has the best dog and it seldom has anything to do with style. I was talking to someone who tried it once and he told me he had been disqualified within a few minutes of entering because his dog crossed an imaginary line (don't know if that is possible or not), but I would hate to drive 100 miles to a trial if it could last a few minutes. I see they use to have fun trials in Minnesota but they don't do that anymore. Is it possible to be disqualified a few minutes in?

If your dog screws up within a few minutes or a few seconds it's over but don't know what imaginary line your talking about.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If your dog screws up within a few minutes or a few seconds it's over but don't know what imaginary line your talking about.

Really you can show up and after a few minutes its over!!!..can someone explain the process a little better please or even pm me if you dont want to post it..i want a more clear understanding of things..like how many times does your dog run?..is it just once that hole day or do you qualify to move on to the next round until a winner is declared?..any info is helpful..thanks....ruth

What he said was their were flags placed in a field with a great distance between them, when his dog follow scent he was told he had crossed a line (invisible, imaginary) a line marked by flags. He said that it he didn't feel that it did but a judge felt it had, he also said there wasn't another dog close to him. Does that make sense?

All kinds of trials with different governing bodies...which organization might you attend?

Nike I don't recognise the trial regs you are explaining but some here might. I'd like to know myself anyone

Ruth there are many reasons but here is one example.
In broke dog stakes a dog hast to be fully broke that means if it chases or fails to Stop to flush they are done.
At the break away a bird pops out in front of the dog & if it fails to stop & stand you are done,it happens.

Which one would you recommend? I have never attended one and have only read the rules for AKC. I have always had labs but just recently picked up a six month old springer, I understand by reading this forum that most of you have pointers. Reading the rules for the springer field trial, I see that the dog needs to be steady to flush or shot, and that is a big reason the trials are holding me back. I would never consider having a flushing pheasant dog steady to flush.

Chris,

I feel like regardless of how much you explain it to people there are just to many lies and untruths about trialing. Reading through here I read lots of untruths. I've never been to s trial with imaginiary lines. Wems said something about dogs ranging 500 yards. Rarely will you see dogs out 500 yards st a weekend trial. Most trial grounds for weekend trials aren't big enough for cast that big. Politics rarely exist in these trials and still people think it is the norm.

People need to get out and check these out and most would notice that although the grounds maybe different than what they normally hunt the style isn't that much different and actually is very practical.

Point is people that don't know need to get out end check it out versus believing everything they hear. I jumped in feet first, I was very green. I listened rode lots learned and have had some decent success for not knowing anything about a trial 3 years ago.

Nike you are talking flushing trials I don't know much about them but Steady to flush & shot would be after the flush the dog is required to Hup untill sent for retreve or sent on to hunt.
That's my understanding anyway but not up on the rules 100% like I stated.

Which one would you recommend? I have never attended one and have only read the rules for AKC. I have always had labs but just recently picked up a six month old springer, I understand by reading this forum that most of you have pointers. Reading the rules for the springer field trial, I see that the dog needs to be steady to flush or shot, and that is a big reason the trials are holding me back. I would never consider having a flushing pheasant dog steady to flush.

My guess is this http://www.nbdca.com/ is what you are looking for...

"I would never consider having a flushing pheasant dog steady to flush."

In the spaniel world steady to anything means after the dog flushes the bird. They flush the bird then sit until the shot or until released to retrieve. Different lingo. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the reply, yes i know what steady to flush and shot means, I just saying in the pheasant hunting I do, I would not like to have a dog steady and that is one reason that is stopping me from trialing. Maybe I need to get another dog just for trialing, my wife would love that.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Nike I don't recognise the trial regs you are explaining but some here might. I'd like to know myself anyone

Ruth there are many reasons but here is one example.
In broke dog stakes a dog hast to be fully broke that means if it chases or fails to Stop to flush they are done.
At the break away a bird pops out in front of the dog & if it fails to stop & stand you are done,it happens.

Sounds like a NSTRA Trial, if the dog spends a certain amount of time outside the marked bird field it can be DQ'd. Could have been a Hunt Test too, that is a different venue but a dog can be DQ'd as well if it spends excessive time out of the bird field.

Coveyrise64

Yes Terry a bird out of bounds don't count & the dog has to return in a certain amount of time but not instantly & never seen them marked with flags & wouldn't call that an imaginary line anyway.
You could be right though but seems like he is talking Flushing trials anyway.

I agree with Rob. 3 years ago, I had never owned a dog. I jumped into AKC feet first, and NSTRA. Both were very intimidating, but you just have to suck it up and do it. I can't imagine my life without trialing. I have come to the point where trialing is almost more fun than hunting. The issue is the specific person. People are interested enough to ask about the trial, but taking the plunge to actually enter and show up takes another level of courage. Some will do it and some won't.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:Chris,

I feel like regardless of how much you explain it to people there are just to many lies and untruths about trialing. Reading through here I read lots of untruths. I've never been to s trial with imaginiary lines. Wems said something about dogs ranging 500 yards. Rarely will you see dogs out 500 yards st a weekend trial. Most trial grounds for weekend trials aren't big enough for cast that big. Politics rarely exist in these trials and still people think it is the norm.

People need to get out and check these out and most would notice that although the grounds maybe different than what they normally hunt the style isn't that much different and actually is very practical.

Point is people that don't know need to get out end check it out versus believing everything they hear. I jumped in feet first, I was very green. I listened rode lots learned and have had some decent success for not knowing anything about a trial 3 years ago.

GUNDOGS wrote:

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If your dog screws up within a few minutes or a few seconds it's over but don't know what imaginary line your talking about.

Really you can show up and after a few minutes its over!!!..can someone explain the process a little better please or even pm me if you dont want to post it..i want a more clear understanding of things..like how many times does your dog run?..is it just once that hole day or do you qualify to move on to the next round until a winner is declared?..any info is helpful..thanks....ruth

Ruth--
The quickest I've seen a dog picked up is 10 seconds. It was at the Brittany National Gun Dog when it was held at Nebraska(Long time ago before MI). Both brits were cast off, one brit attacked the other(hamstrung him) and was picked up by the judges. The entry fee at that time for nationals was $100. The owners also pay the pro to run the dog--$100. The owners flew in to NE to watch the dog--cost 2 air fares. They had a room rented--room cost. They rented 2 horses to watch their dog---$100. It was a pretty expensive trip for 10 seconds worth of entertainment

[quote="Brushbustin Sporting Dogs"]Chris,

I feel like regardless of how much you explain it to people there are just to many lies and untruths about trialing. Reading through here I read lots of untruths. I've never been to s trial with imaginiary lines. Wems said something about dogs ranging 500 yards. Rarely will you see dogs out 500 yards st a weekend trial. Most trial grounds for weekend trials aren't big enough for cast that big. Politics rarely exist in these trials and still people think it is the norm.

quote]


Actually Rob a dog out a 500 yds for around here in a walking, broke dog stake, isnt uncommon at all. I do agree with you however about folks having misconceptions GALORE. Still this conversation has gone away from the intended pretenses. What does it take to get a guy to get off the fence that is actually calling and interested in coming to a trial, and why is it so hard to knock them off that fence?

uplandrsb wrote: Many say a good trial dog will not hunt well so i decided to hunt. I konw now that you can have the best of both worlds with good training and effort. Regarless of politics however, if you go with a bada$$ dog, you wont be judged otherwise.

Regards

So then politics dont really have anything to do with it??????????????? Dont get me wrong there are politics in EVERY circle of life but how can someone that has never been actually attest to its overabundance in the trial world? I guess it is a preconcieved notion afterall!

There are many people that dont care for me or the way I go about things, if there were an overflow of politics then shouldnt I never place a dog? Also I had a trial up here at MY PLACE last year, with only one member of my club, ME. I rran 8 dogs, should have place at minimun 4 with politics coming into the picture. Although I never did place a single one!

Topher,

I am reading alot of reasons that newbies don't enter in the body of this. There is fear of failure/rejection, finances, ignorance of; or a disagreement with rules and format, and apprehension about being a social outsider. IMO most of these are individual or personal barriers that loosely get described and mistakenly called "politics". Overcoming these objections and or obstacles with people is a talent and it requires patience and committment that generally wears a volunteer workforce out over time. As a result, there are huge numbers of dog owners that could solidify the future of field trialing yet they don't ever get involved and for lack of a better word..."hooked." I personally feel that you and folks like you are to be commended for their efforts, and we must all keep in perspective the points of view from the outside looking in.

I submitted a link to a gentleman making an inquiry about trialing in this post who IMO was looking for a BDC type format. I have entered one of these trials and did not find it to be my cup of tea, however, I would argue that it best fits most of my hunting friends. We need a cohesive stance in the sport to keep it alive, our numbers in any venue individually are too weak, collectively we fare better. Good luck getting entrants, put your saleman shoes on, shake hands, kiss babies, etc... Every new person you get helps the rest of us, and thank you.

deseeker wrote:

GUNDOGS wrote:

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If your dog screws up within a few minutes or a few seconds it's over but don't know what imaginary line your talking about.

Really you can show up and after a few minutes its over!!!..can someone explain the process a little better please or even pm me if you dont want to post it..i want a more clear understanding of things..like how many times does your dog run?..is it just once that hole day or do you qualify to move on to the next round until a winner is declared?..any info is helpful..thanks....ruth

Ruth--
The quickest I've seen a dog picked up is 10 seconds. It was at the Brittany National Gun Dog when it was held at Nebraska(Long time ago before MI). Both brits were cast off, one brit attacked the other(hamstrung him) and was picked up by the judges. The entry fee at that time for nationals was $100. The owners also pay the pro to run the dog--$100. The owners flew in to NE to watch the dog--cost 2 air fares. They had a room rented--room cost. They rented 2 horses to watch their dog---$100. It was a pretty expensive trip for 10 seconds worth of entertainment

NO WAY!! ...i wonder how long he kept that dog for after that?..im assuming that doesnt happen too often or does it?....ruth

Chukar
Thank you for the link, I use to watch that on the outdoor channel and its almost exactly what I'm interested in except for the speed walking (running) needs to be changed. I was reading about it, I believe in this forum, and it was almost completed condemned, not only because of the running but also the lack to style of the pointing dogs. To me as a hunter I could care less where the dogs tail is at when its on point as lone as he has pinned the bird. How much of trial points involve style points?

Let me make one more off subject to Ruth who staed:

) dont really want someone judging us on how GOOD our dogs are..

Anytime you show or trial your dog all you are doing is paying for someone's elses opinion of your dog. The reason this is needed is you become kennel blind. When you see your dog everyday you get to the point you can see it objectively. Happens to everybody. Much the same principle as the fact that you can't judge how good looking your daughters are. Love or maybe just familiarity clouds your judgment. If you are wanting to use your dog in a breeding program it becomes important to have someone else's opinion. If not, then enjoy your dog, as I'm sure you will, and it doesn't make any difference if what you see is really what you have.

Ezzy

Now back to the scheduled program.

I use to watch that on the outdoor channel and its almost exactly what I'm interested in except for the speed walking (running) needs to be changed. I was reading about it, I believe in this forum, and it was almost completed condemned, not only because of the running but also the lack to style of the pointing dogs. To me as a hunter I could care less where the dogs tail is at when its on point as lone as he has pinned the bird. How much of trial points involve style points?

My choice to not participate is based on two things, how quick you can kill something in a small field lends itself to a number of safety issues. I do not know of human injuries but I saw a dog severely shot and know that one was killed in the format. They are chasing low-flying birds and competitors get amped. Secondly, and the reason style matters in AKC and AF is that it is designed to measure breeding/genetics and advanced training such as steadiness, handling at longer distances and manners without direct contact. (these are just examples and are my definitions) So, style matters alot, many of the participants hunt, or have been hunters but their goal is to produce and have judged in an experienced albeit subjective format the best possible example of a dog. AKC and AF are not judged on a point syatem, rather a criteria observed by two judges per stake and a collective agreement of which dog is best on a given day. Over a number of trials it is generally proven out that the "best" dogs running in that format are consistent winners.

I'm one of those people from the outside looking in. I have dealt with only hunting situations and that's one reason I like the times event it takes the decision out of the judges hands for the most part. When I pheasant its not uncommon to see a dog that runs big lines and have a strong point (IMO), yet get out hunted 10 to 1 by a dog that looks sloppy but always finds most birds. That's the style that I was mentioning. In the Bird Dog Challenge (the link I was given) its about which dog puts up the most birds (in range) in the shortest amount of time. There are things that you mentioned about the running, and the safety, I completely agree with you on. I don't want this to become a thread about the DBC thats aready been done.

I am probably going to my first trial this spring doing puppy stakes with my Brit pup, the first birddog I have ever owned. Here are my reservations about the whole thing...

1. I don't own a horse and am not all that comfortable riding one. If I could do it more often, I'm sure I would be fine, but it's hard to do when you don't have one or access to one.
2. From what I can tell, you can't really do the training yourself and I like to train my dogs. I play other venues (obedience and agility) and really, really enjoy the team aspect of it all, but it seems you have to send your dog away to a trainer to be able to even consider a placements. By sending them away you take the risk of having somebody else correcting a behavior that you don't want corrected that is useful in another venue.
3. Not sure of the rules and what is and isn't allowed.
4. Also making a fool of myself with a pup that is no doubt gonna be bad because that's what he does

I think really it's just fear of the unknown...

In the Bird Dog Challenge (the link I was given) its about which dog puts up the most birds (in range) in the shortest amount of time

I do hope Topher's thread is not hi-jacked...but I think the point is if that format appeals to you ... GO MAN GO! It has the least barrier to entry and it gets people involved, anyone willing to apply themselves and help the sport along gets my support...

by Wagonmaster

We all have excuses, reasons for not doing things. The barriers are too high, it costs too much, we might get embarrassed, we might fail, the dog ate my homework, will you look at gas prices these days. Despite barriers, someone gets elected to be President of the US every four years, there is a CEO leading every company, and every National Champion is owned and/or run by someone, indeed, every winner of every trial is also. Who dares to be that someone?

Chukar12 wrote:
That gives me an idea...my next dog is going to be Spanish Corral's Withheld ...

It's already been done. Fellow had trouble getting credit for all his placements from the CKC