First dog: puppy, started, or finished?

JWP58 · Post by **JWP58** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:47 pm

Hi to all, new member here! I'm really wanting to get deeper into upland bird hunting and want a dog (pointer).

So heres my question, being this will be my first bird dog (my father had many, EP, GSP, Britt...unfortunately he's not with us anymore) should i get a puppy, started dog, or fully trained dog? I know the fully trained is going to be EXSPENSIVE, but i'm just trying to research what goes into training a dog, so i dont know if i'm up to the task of training a pup. So it might be worth the $$$$.

I've also considered contacting a local trainer to see if i could "volunteer" my time, in order to learn more about training (dont know how that would work out...but i guess i could ask).

I'm months away from making this commitment, but i'd like to start the process sooner rather than later.

(btw i'm leaning towards either a GSP or Brittney). All opinions welcome!

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:30 pm

Do you WANT to train a dog? As in really want to? And do you have the time?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:41 pm

Save yourself some frustratiom and pick up a two year old off a pro trainer. Breed? English pointer. That's what everyone decides on after they start with something else.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:48 pm

Started and finished are terms that vary a lot , depending who is talking. So if you are looking at a started dog ask exactly what he does and what percentage of the time he does these things.Then of course you don't know how accurate the description is so you should see the dog perform.Not that a person would be lying but when a person says his dog points maybe another would be disappointed the the style and intensity.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:49 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Save yourself some frustratiom and pick up a two year old off a pro trainer. Breed? English pointer. That's what everyone decides on after they start with something else.

Wher did this come from. We all ended up with a pointer? Seems they are quite a minority on this board though they are nice dogs. Thing there are better choices if you are very far north.

Ezzy

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:15 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Save yourself some frustratiom and pick up a two year old off a pro trainer. Breed? English pointer. That's what everyone decides on after they start with something else.

Glad to see you've seen the light with long tails!

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:35 pm

I prefer to have the dog from puppy stage and move forward, even if I plan on having a pro train my pup.
If you decide to go with a puppy, ask the breeder if he or she would allow you to work your puppy with the breeder when he works his dogs.
I offer free introduction session every Spring to anyone who wants to learn to work their new dog or who is new to dog handling. I'm by no means a pro, too many stupid mistakes to call myself one, but I have a good amount of knowledge to pass on that won't hurt a new dog owner. Mostly common sense stuff and those tricks that Dave Walker teaches me when I work my dogs with him.
If you pup's breeder will allow you to work your pup with him, he's a good breeder.
If he won't, find another breeder who will. Most of the breeders I know are more than happy to help someone who buys a puppy from them.

Oh, I'd go with Brittanys as they are more bird dog then most and easier to train than all others. Besides, that is what EP owners come back to once they get tired of not finding any birds.

JWP58 · Post by **JWP58** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:54 pm

3Britts wrote:I prefer to have the dog from puppy stage and move forward, even if I plan on having a pro train my pup.
If you decide to go with a puppy, ask the breeder if he or she would allow you to work your puppy with the breeder when he works his dogs.
I offer free introduction session every Spring to anyone who wants to learn to work their new dog or who is new to dog handling. I'm by no means a pro, too many stupid mistakes to call myself one, but I have a good amount of knowledge to pass on that won't hurt a new dog owner. Mostly common sense stuff and those tricks that Dave Walker teaches me when I work my dogs with him.
If you pup's breeder will allow you to work your pup with him, he's a good breeder.
If he won't, find another breeder who will. Most of the breeders I know are more than happy to help someone who buys a puppy from them.

Oh, I'd go with Brittanys as they are more bird dog then most and easier to train than all others. Besides, that is what EP owners come back to once they get tired of not finding any birds.

Sounds like some solid info! (and yes i do really love the look of an orange/white britt...and the size)

Thanks to all so far

PointingQuail · Post by **PointingQuail** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:47 pm

I recently purchased a pup at 7-8 weeks and am a first time trainer. So I was in your position a few months ago. FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I wish I would have bought at least a started dog. Why? I feel that I am not doing a good job by my perfect pedigree pup and would have been able to learn just as much from a started pup (probably more) and end up with a decent hunter no matter what. If you are willing to devote at least 30 min a day to training alone...then a puppy might be good. If not get a started dog that you have seen hunt. From asking my friends, the bonds between dogs they got started and dogs they got as puppies is no different. Like I said, I am new to training but thought I would tell my story in case it helps.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:25 am

It takes a lot of equpment, time and facilities to make a bird dog from scratch. That mean lots of birds and some land, and frequent use of same. I drove two hours a day (an hour there and back), three days a week without fail, plus daily yard for four months when training my young Gordon. If you don't have the birds, land, time or crazed dedication to do that, a started or finished dog is the way to go. And if you have an experienced mentor to help you make a selection (a new guy will make mistakes), there are always genuinely great "deals"'on finished dogs if you are willing to shop, wait, drive some distance and say no.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:34 am

We all ended up with a pointer? Seems they are quite a minority on this board Ezzy

Thanks. I hadn't had my sarcastic morning laugh yet.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:03 am

Cajun Casey wrote:Save yourself some frustratiom and pick up a two year old off a pro trainer. Breed? English pointer. That's what everyone decides on after they start with something else.

Are those the ones with the long skinny tails? Why would someone want a Dalmatian without the spots?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:28 am

The pointer comment was mostly for dis_tex's amusement. But, as to why anyone would want one, well, there is a school of thought that the bobwhite quail is the bird God made for wingshooters and the English pointer is the dog made for hunting it.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:48 am

While I agree with the aforementioned comment, I have always wondered where the misconception that English Pointers are "quail dogs" & not lethal Pheasant dogs as well? (I'm not implying anyone here on this thread has said that) But, I'd bet that my dogs point 30 pheasants (conservatively) for every point that turns up a quail or covey. That being said, that speaks more to the lay of the land and the birds in it. We have far more pheasants here than quail.

I know people use them to hunt other species of upland birds, but that is beyond the scope/realm of my knowledge on how well they do. . For hunting pheasants I wouldn't have anything but an English Pointer.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:02 am

Unless you know what YOU are doing, the started dog will be "eating your lunch" within 30 days and the trained dog will be back to the trainer for tuning up...trainers love that...future cash flow.

Best dog you'll ever own is the one you train...its the team concept...train together and compete together.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:06 am

Pointers on quail far predate the introduction of the illustrious Chinese chicken to the North American gamebag.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:02 pm

JKP wrote:Unless you know what YOU are doing, the started dog will be "eating your lunch" within 30 days and the trained dog will be back to the trainer for tuning up...trainers love that...future cash flow.

Best dog you'll ever own is the one you train...its the team concept...train together and compete together.

Not so. Or at least it doesn't have to be. The answer to "Unless you know what YOU are doing" is simply to take a few supervisory training sessions with a professional or knowledgable dog trainer,which may include the persom from whom you bought the dog. And of course getting to be friends with the dog (and hopefully doing a little daily yard/obedience work) away from the training field is mandatory as well.

kcc · Post by **kcc** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:22 pm

I think it might depend on the breed. The utility dogs and pointers which are started or finished are more apt to "eat your lunch " if your inexperinced . Setters need a lighter hand or you'll screw them up but they live to please and are generally very quick to attach to a new if they were socialized well.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:17 pm

JWP58 wrote:Hi to all, new member here! I'm really wanting to get deeper into upland bird hunting and want a dog (pointer).

So heres my question, being this will be my first bird dog (my father had many, EP, GSP, Britt...unfortunately he's not with us anymore) should i get a puppy, started dog, or fully trained dog? I know the fully trained is going to be EXSPENSIVE, but i'm just trying to research what goes into training a dog, so i dont know if i'm up to the task of training a pup. So it might be worth the $$$$.

I've also considered contacting a local trainer to see if i could "volunteer" my time, in order to learn more about training (dont know how that would work out...but i guess i could ask).

I'm months away from making this commitment, but i'd like to start the process sooner rather than later.

(btw i'm leaning towards either a GSP or Brittney). All opinions welcome!

You sound like you could take the initiative to do whatever you set out to do..Helping the local trainer (if a good one) is by far the very best way to learn. Bringing a pup along is the most gratifying I think, but thats me...

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:19 pm

I think that a well started dog from a reputable breeder or trainer is a pretty good way to go for a 1st time bird dog owner. Or a finished dog...but finished dogs can very very expensive. In my mind a started dog should have some basic obedience down. Gun broke, usually steady to flush with birds shot over it.....It knows enough to take out bird hunting immediantly but is not a "finished" totally steady dog....may or may not retrieve but usually not FF'd. This dog will hunt for ya, can't really screw it up too much. Its just a matter of how much farther you take the training.....

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:18 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Pointers on quail far predate the introduction of the illustrious Chinese chicken to the North American gamebag.

Okay, lets look at the name, English Pointer. English, as it comes from a place where Bobwhites are in short supply and grouse are abundant. Wouldn't that make them grouse dogs. I would think so. But, in my experience, grouse are just too smart for EPs.

Brittanys, on the other hand, can adapt, thus the switch from French to American Brittany. When is the last time you saw an American Pointer. Good luch finding one.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:48 pm

im getting a pup in October. I have been looking since June. Don't rush it. I know how you feel! Believe me I do!!! You have come to the right place to ask questions. Just make sure you get the pup/started/finished you want. Me personally, I want to train the dog and need a hobby so i am buying a pup... just FYI.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:54 pm

3Britts wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Pointers on quail far predate the introduction of the illustrious Chinese chicken to the North American gamebag.
Okay, lets look at the name, English Pointer. English, as it comes from a place where Bobwhites are in short supply and grouse are abundant. Wouldn't that make them grouse dogs. I would think so. But, in my experience, grouse are just too smart for EPs. Brittanys, on the other hand, can adapt, thus the switch from French to American Brittany. When is the last time you saw an American Pointer. Good luch finding one.

Technically they aren't "English Pointers" by AKC, just Pointers...

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:14 am

displaced_texan wrote:
3Britts wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Pointers on quail far predate the introduction of the illustrious Chinese chicken to the North American gamebag.
Okay, lets look at the name, English Pointer. English, as it comes from a place where Bobwhites are in short supply and grouse are abundant. Wouldn't that make them grouse dogs. I would think so. But, in my experience, grouse are just too smart for EPs. Brittanys, on the other hand, can adapt, thus the switch from French to American Brittany. When is the last time you saw an American Pointer. Good luch finding one.
Technically they aren't "English Pointers" by AKC, just Pointers...

Technically, you are correct. Then we look at the history and they never mention a shift from the beginning. Still an English dog.
"Pointers first appeared in England around 1650 and were the first breed used to stand game. Before wing-shooting with guns became popular, Pointers were often used to locate and point hares in conjunction with Greyhound coursing. The Pointer's lineage is foggy, but there is no question that it includes Foxhound, Greyhound, and Bloodhound crossed with some sort of "setting spaniel," which played an important part in the creation of all modern bird dogs." From the akc site.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:28 am

I like having one from a pup. They bond well with the family, and I have a chance to lay the rules down from the start. You know how a childs personality is almost completely developed at age 3, well a dogs is as well at about 1 year. That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to get a 2 year old finished dog if I really got a chance to be around the dog, and knew what the dog was like. It is far more cost effective in most cases. If you had some dogs that were near you, and you had a chance to really study them. I keep my dogs inside the house with my family and other dogs, so they need to melt in, and know their place. No time for a dog that I don't trust completely. If you are keeping them outside in a kennel, then much of my concerns won't apply to you.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:29 am

3Britts wrote: Technically, you are correct. Then we look at the history and they never mention a shift from the beginning. Still an English dog.
"Pointers first appeared in England around 1650 and were the first breed used to stand game. Before wing-shooting with guns became popular, Pointers were often used to locate and point hares in conjunction with Greyhound coursing. The Pointer's lineage is foggy, but there is no question that it includes Foxhound, Greyhound, and Bloodhound crossed with some sort of "setting spaniel," which played an important part in the creation of all modern bird dogs." From the akc site.

I know, I was just being difficult with ya

It is odd that they are viewed as a quail dog, and don't originate from quail country...

I'm from the school that believes God made quail for wingshooters, and pointers for us to hunt them with. He just had the English start prepping our dogs for us to save time once guns came on the scene

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:38 am

I always thought it was best to have them from a puppy to bond with you but our first GSP was 10 months old when we got him. It was great because he was already house broke, had his NAVHDA NA Prize 1, with a 112, so we knew he had what he needed for a hunting dog, plus he had a FT puppy derby point

Yeah, they can do both, LOL! We had no problems with him bonding with us and he has turned out to be the "best hunting dog ever"

If you go with a puppy or "started" dog you may want to check into NAVHDA http://www.navhda.org/ there are chapters all over the US & Canada that helps you train your dog.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:59 am

The dogs that would become the English pointer are clearly recognizable in the Bayeux Tapestry of the late Eleventh Century. Those were the product of native French stock and, probably, Arabian greyhounds brought west by returning Crusaders.

Regardless, I still think a started dog is the way to go because it helps prevent procrastination in training. The foundation is there for you to build on.

JWP58 · Post by **JWP58** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:17 pm

Dragging up the thread from the depths to ask another noob question....here goes.

At the moment i live in an apartment (one bedroom). Would i be doing a diservice to a dog by keeping it in an apartment? I planned on waiting untill i got a house, but with my career search (law enforcement) process being long and drawn out, i kinda just want to get one now. With my current work hours i would be able to work/walk/run the dog in the morning (till 1pm) and my fiance could take it out after 5 when she gets off. The rest of the time it would be inside.

Would this be an acceptable lifestyle for a bird dog? Looking forward to opinions.

I believe i've setteled on the breed also, a brittany.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:59 pm

Mine spends his days in a kennel run (4'x16') or in the bed of my truck (If I bring him to work he gets a few 5ish min walks throughout the day)

As long as he/she gets enough exercise it wouldn't bother me a bit.

In some ways I see not having a yard as an advantage, in that you can't just chunk pup back there and ignore him. He has to get exercise and attention, and that's good for the both of you.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:51 am

i would make sure if you get a finished dog or any older dog for that matter you look into the dogs history and know as much as possible about the dog, like has it been a kennel dog for its entire life or has it been in a home and taught obedience in the home..i say this because if you expect it to be good in your home you need to know its history..especially being in an apt find out if the dogs a barker and how he is if left alone ect.. if the main reason for not wanting a pup is because of not having the time to train then be sure to take into consideration training a dog that has not been in a home or not been in a home very often will require alot of time and training as well..i was offered a free finished dog (GSP, 3 years old) by a friend of ours who was going threw a divorce and i agreed on taking him for a trial period of 2 weeks, i got him home and he lifted a leg on my couch, barked at the t.v and wanted out constantly.. he was too much dog and wanted soley to be outside, be independant and go, go, go which did not fit into my lifestyle and a hunting dog is second me, being a companion in my home is first..so i found him a kennel home where the couple didnt want a house dog so it was a better match..as far as the apt thing..even people with yards dont exercise their dogs enough, going for long walks and runs, training, yard work, socializing and stimulating their mind is whats needed with a dog of any age and im sure you'll do just fine.......ruth

JWP58 · Post by **JWP58** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:57 am

Thanks for the info/opinion ruth!

Btw i've settled on a puppy.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:00 am

JWP58 wrote:Thanks for the info/opinion ruth!

Btw i've settled on a puppy.

congrats, dont forget to post pics, we loooove pics

.....ruth

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:34 am

Get a female. Easier to potty train. No stealth hiking when it gets older.

An advantage to not having a yard is that the pup will have lots of exposure to a variety of places and activities on outings. You will have to take it places to play and that will be a great help to getting the pup used to lots of new things.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:15 am

displaced texan wrote:Do you WANT to train a dog? As in really want to? And do you have the time?

First off welcome to the forum. I agree with texan here. It depends on what you want and the time you have. A lot of first time owners are intimidated at the thought of training a bird dog. IMO, it is sometimes made out to be more complicated than it is. It is not rocket science but it does take time and access to plenty of birds. The idea of contacting a pro and working with him/her is a great idea. The most gratifying thing about bird dogs for me is training my own. I probably wouldn't even have dogs if I didn't enjoy doing the training but that's just me.

Good luck with whatever you decide,
Charlie

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:24 pm

JWP58 wrote:Dragging up the thread from the depths to ask another noob question....here goes.

At the moment i live in an apartment (one bedroom). Would i be doing a diservice to a dog by keeping it in an apartment? I planned on waiting untill i got a house, but with my career search (law enforcement) process being long and drawn out, i kinda just want to get one now. With my current work hours i would be able to work/walk/run the dog in the morning (till 1pm) and my fiance could take it out after 5 when she gets off. The rest of the time it would be inside.

Would this be an acceptable lifestyle for a bird dog? Looking forward to opinions.

I believe i've setteled on the breed also, a brittany.

You will need to remember that a puppy will tend to bark if left alone too long, so an older maybe finished dog might be what you are looking for.
Apartment living is not for some of the breeds. Brittanys do better in a house, jmo, where springers do alright in apartments.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:02 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Get a female. Easier to potty train. No stealth hiking when it gets older.

Generally so. My wife's redbone female has been the hardest to potty train dog I've ever seen. She would happily pee in her crate. Didn't bother her a bit, also pooped in it very regularly. And my current longtail pup was unusually easy to potty train.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:27 pm

Get a pup but look for a trainer that will help you train your own. I think you had it right when you first made the thread. Trade for running and bird planting. If you have a pro around or within 1.5 hours that will do that trade then take it.

You don't know what happened in the 18 months that started dog was at the trainers or why the previous owner dropped the dog off to be sold in the first place.

thunderhead · Post by **thunderhead** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:32 pm

Whether you get a puppy or a dog with some training behind it, it will take a level of dedication on your part. If it is a puppy, you will want to draw out and develop the instincts that were bred into the pup. Finding some experience dog trainers will be a huge advantage so you can be guided down the right path as you develop the pup and ensure you are doing the right things with him. If you go the started or finished dog route, the dog will only stay as trained as you you keep him. In other words, the dog may regress in his performance as far as you allow him to.

When I sell a finished dog to someone, I take a lot of pride in the dogs performance. If an individual has no idea how the dog got to that level then they may not be able to keep the dog performing as a finished dog. In the past I made a video of started dog that was being trained to a finished level before going to her new home. The taping was over the course of several weeks, and seeing the timing and actual corrections being made helped the new owners in maintaining a very polished and classy dog. If you get a finished dog you have to know how the dog got there and how to correct the dog in a manner that is consistent to what the dog understands.

Which ever way you go, commitment and dedication will help lead the way to a great hunting buddy for years to come.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:15 am

thunderhead wrote:Whether you get a puppy or a dog with some training behind it, it will take a level of dedication on your part. If it is a puppy, you will want to draw out and develop the instincts that were bred into the pup. Finding some experience dog trainers will be a huge advantage so you can be guided down the right path as you develop the pup and ensure you are doing the right things with him. If you go the started or finished dog route, the dog will only stay as trained as you you keep him. In other words, the dog may regress in his performance as far as you allow him to.

When I sell a finished dog to someone, I take a lot of pride in the dogs performance. If an individual has no idea how the dog got to that level then they may not be able to keep the dog performing as a finished dog. In the past I made a video of started dog that was being trained to a finished level before going to her new home. The taping was over the course of several weeks, and seeing the timing and actual corrections being made helped the new owners in maintaining a very polished and classy dog. If you get a finished dog you have to know how the dog got there and how to correct the dog in a manner that is consistent to what the dog understands.

Which ever way you go, commitment and dedication will help lead the way to a great hunting buddy for years to come.

Bingo! Perfect advise!

JWP58 · Post by **JWP58** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:18 pm

Still trying to decide.

I'd be in 100%, so i'm not worried about me. Just the apartment....who knows.