Outcrossing Field & Bench bred

[Jenna]

How many of you have seen an outcross of field & bench? In some breeds (brits, gsps, gwps) the difference wouldn't be so apparent, but in other breeds where the look varies greatly between field and bench, what does the breeding produce? I know it will depend on the actual line and genetics, but how often is this even done?

My first setter was the product of an accidental breeding between my uncle's field and bench setters. He kept two lines, because he claimed anything that could win at the trials (setter-wise) wasn't ever going to finish in the ring, and anything that could win in the shows was too stupid to know what a bird was. Well, one of his field dogs went to great lengths to meet one of the show ladies. 7 puppies later.... My dog from the litter seemed to get the best of both worlds. I really should have pursued hunting with him, but being a 12 year old kid with parents stringing out a nasty divorce didn't exactly make it easy for me to do that.

And another question, when field breeder's are planning a breeding, what is prioritized? Instinct? Health? Conformation? Pedigree? I know everyone does things differently, and to each his own, I'm just curious.

[snips]

It is possible to get the best of both worlds, the breeding would probably be a plus to the show side tho..Some show stuff still carries good hunting instincts, just depends on the lines. Unfortunatly there are some show breeders that do not care a bit about what field qualities they are or are not breeding. For me I have to have a dog that performs to my standard in the field first, when I see that the dog has what I want then I will match it with a dog that compliments them in field abilities and conformation...Of course health is utmost...

[Cajun Casey]

I do not think it is possible to reconcile the situation in English and Irish setters. The culture clash between the ESAA/ISCA and the FDSB is too great.

[kninebirddog]

I have seen it done..mostly with mediocre results at best for the field desire sure some will get out and point a bird but just not with the same zip style and endurance of a true field bred dog...That is where the breed clubs have messed up so many breeds and some judges not helping by putting up the over coated odd conformation dogs...the brittanys have come the closest to the dual dog concept but even there there is some big discrepancies as a true DC dog I doubt will ever take a breed in the big shows and for sure in the sporting dogs most of those dogs paraded around wouldn't last in the field for 30 minutes much less a true days hunt and life to short to hunt behind a mediocre dog.

For me form follows function and I want a functional dog in the field..and in my program if the dog doesn't have a nice strong desire to hunt and have the ability or the smarts to work literal for hours at a time for me it isn't worth breeding to passing OFA also is important to me for breeding stock.

That is me..I have dogs that do well in the field hunting and some trialing I even have the occasional ones that make it in the show ring nice but not my priority

[Jenna]

I do not think it is possible to reconcile the situation in English and Irish setters. The culture clash between the ESAA/ISCA and the FDSB is too great.

Oooooh I never said anything about reconciling I'm well aware of the rifts that go on! The majority of ES breeders I have met over the years are so incredibly narrow minded about field dogs vs bench dogs and I know that the breed as a whole is so far divided that there's no going back. It's sad really, that these breeders who claim to be bettering the breed could care less about what the breed was actually bred to do.

Some judges? HAHA you mean the greater majority of judges!! I have seen it happen all too often that a crappy dog wins over a better dog, just because of the coat they have. Look at cockers for example. The standard says something along the lines of the coat not interfering with their ability to be in the field......ANY one of the show cockers would get so snagged up in the brush they'd be immobile.

[Cajun Casey]

I'm not up on popular AKC English setters anymore, except for Rocketman, but I would think you could take a nice Ryman type coverdog bred female to an AKC stud, field test the product, go back to show with the second generation and make some progress if BAER didn't wipe you out.

[ezzy333]

I have seen it done..mostly with mediocre results at best for the field desire sure some will get out and point a bird but just not with the same zip style and endurance of a true field bred dog...That is where the breed clubs have messed up so many breeds and some judges not helping by putting up the over coated odd conformation dogs...the brittanys have come the closest to the dual dog concept but even there there is some big discrepancies as a true DC dog I doubt will ever take a breed in the big shows and for sure in the sporting dogs most of those dogs paraded around wouldn't last in the field for 30 minutes much less a true days hunt and life to short to hunt behind a mediocre dog.

For me form follows function and I want a functional dog in the field..and in my program if the dog doesn't have a nice strong desire to hunt and have the ability or the smarts to work literal for hours at a time for me it isn't worth breeding to passing OFA also is important to me for breeding stock.

That is me..I have dogs that do well in the field hunting and some trialing I even have the occasional ones that make it in the show ring nice but not my priority

I can think of several Duals who are NFC's. For a matter of fact there are a lot of them. I to believe in form following function and if a dog has to be out of the breed standard to function the way you like then you are in the wrong breed and are asking something different than what the breed was meant for.

Jenna there are very few Brits that won't hunt. I think you will find the same thing with the GSP's and the English Setters. Not sure it is true with the Irish but there are some that will and we now have people bringing them back and there are some real good ones beginning to show up. Many of the show dogs will be slower and some may lack the prey drive but with a little work it will pretty much come back.. The end result will be the dogs won't win a field trial but most will make a decent hunting dog. It takes a lot to lose an instinct just like it does to create one but the years of ignoring it in a breeding program will have lessen it to some degree usually.

Ezzy

[Jenna]

I'm not up on popular AKC English setters anymore, except for Rocketman, but I would think you could take a nice Ryman type coverdog bred female to an AKC stud, field test the product, go back to show with the second generation and make some progress if BAER didn't wipe you out.

Slab sided, roman nosed, no neck, sloping shoulders, over angulated, coat racks. There ya go. You're now up to speed

BAER testing is a tricky tricky thing. I know of a vet in my home state of WA that will falsify the tests, and I know she isn't the only one out there that does this. In my last litter, there was 1 completely deaf and 2 that were deaf in 1 ear. The rest were clear. Looking at the pedigree, all dogs were BAER clear for FOUR generations. In the 5th gen, all were clear except one bitch who was "never tested".

I can think of several Duals who are NFC's. For a matter of fact there are a lot of them. I to believe in form following function and if a dog has to be out of the breed standard to function the way you like then you are in the wrong breed and are asking something different than what the breed was meant for.

Jenna there are very few Brits that won't hunt. I think you will find the same thing with the GSP's and the English Setters. Not sure it is true with the Irish but there are some that will and we now have people bringing them back and there are some real good ones beginning to show up. Many of the show dogs will be slower and some may lack the prey drive but with a little work it will pretty much come back.. The end result will be the dogs won't win a field trial but most will make a decent hunting dog. It takes a lot to lose an instinct just like it does to create one but the years of ignoring it in a breeding program will have lessen it to some degree usually.

Ezzy

I don't think I've ever met a brit that didn't like birds! I recall years ago at a show in Moses Lake (WA), I was showing a brit and a pigeon landed just outside the ring (we were showing in an arena). Yeeeeeea. That was fun. He immediately froze up and wouldn't budge. After the pigeon flew off, he spent the rest of the time staring in the rafters.

I have a question now about tails. In the ES standard, the tail should be a continuance of the topline, and not be above or below the topline when carried. Pointer tails are asked to be carried no more than 20 degrees above the topline. Why are tails preferred to be so high for field dogs?

[Cajun Casey]

A high tail shows intensity. In structural analysis, it also indicates a more powerful rear assembly,

[Jenna]

Intensity makes sense. I'm not contradicting you by any means, but how does high tail carriage indicate a more powerful rear assembly? A well muscled, well built dog, free of luxating patellas and hip dysplasia, doesn't necessarily have high tail carriage.

[kninebirddog]

I have seen it done..mostly with mediocre results at best for the field desire sure some will get out and point a bird but just not with the same zip style and endurance of a true field bred dog...That is where the breed clubs have messed up so many breeds and some judges not helping by putting up the over coated odd conformation dogs...the brittanys have come the closest to the dual dog concept but even there there is some big discrepancies as a true DC dog I doubt will ever take a breed in the big shows and for sure in the sporting dogs most of those dogs paraded around wouldn't last in the field for 30 minutes much less a true days hunt and life to short to hunt behind a mediocre dog.

For me form follows function and I want a functional dog in the field..and in my program if the dog doesn't have a nice strong desire to hunt and have the ability or the smarts to work literal for hours at a time for me it isn't worth breeding to passing OFA also is important to me for breeding stock.

That is me..I have dogs that do well in the field hunting and some trialing I even have the occasional ones that make it in the show ring nice but not my priority

I can think of several Duals who are NFC's. For a matter of fact there are a lot of them. I to believe in form following function and if a dog has to be out of the breed standard to function the way you like then you are in the wrong breed and are asking something different than what the breed was meant for.

Jenna there are very few Brits that won't hunt. I think you will find the same thing with the GSP's and the English Setters. Not sure it is true with the Irish but there are some that will and we now have people bringing them back and there are some real good ones beginning to show up. Many of the show dogs will be slower and some may lack the prey drive but with a little work it will pretty much come back.. The end result will be the dogs won't win a field trial but most will make a decent hunting dog. It takes a lot to lose an instinct just like it does to create one but the years of ignoring it in a breeding program will have lessen it to some degree usually.

Ezzy

Ezzy you completely missed what I said I was not referring to field I was referring to the show ring and the big ones like westminster eukanuba ranked shows

[Karen]

Knine, I couldn't disagree more with you.

What about Cooper? DC Country Road's Rough Rider? He went Best in BREED at the ABC National Specialty Show AND has place in MANY hour stakes. And DC/AFC Jayhawker Tequila with a Twist? She also won went Best in Breed at the National Specialty AND in a true hour AA dog. Take a look at CH/AFC Diamond Hill Dangerous Man. A direct son of Diamond Hill Dan, and tell me he couldn't be a top rated show dog (even as a roan ).

You go breed at Westminster, you've beat 20 other Brittany Champions in the ring. You go Breed at the National Specialty, you've beat 150 other Brittanys, and WAY more champions than you would at Westminster or Eukanuba.

The reason you don't see more top rated Brittany show dogs in the field is there isn't the time or the money to do both. The dogs in the top 20 (that participate in the invitational shows like Eukanuba and Westminster) are in the show ring nearly every single weekend of the year, many are out with professional show handlers. If the game you chose is to be a top 20 show dog, you have to play the game....which means impecably groomed and 2-3 pounds too heavy for the field. Nope, without 12 weeks with a trainer getting in shape and losing the weight, they probably couldn't finish a strong half hour. But when would they find the time to run field trials anyway?

Many more DC's are capable of doing both well.....but the time, effort and money required to do just one well precludes the other.

[GUNDOGS]

Sorry for throwing my 2 cents in here without reading all the posts but just the original question..our 2 setters..one bench and one field..one from jim gourley in kansas(field setter female from "shades") and the other from a showline from leamington..they look NOTHING alike..i wish i could figure out how to get pics on here to show you them..SO DIFFERENT..they look like 2 differrent breed of dogs..anyway i dont know what they would produce as far as pups but i can bet that it wouldnt qualify in the ring as far as breed standards..but in the field looks dont count..sorry if this was already said ....ruth

[JKP]

Been on both sides of this issue...started showing dogs at 10 and thought I was doing right by the breed by doing both ... field and show and in the end decided that show is a waste of time. Don't need a judge who may not even know the breed that well to tell me what I have on the end of the lead...I know what the dogs conformation positives and negatives are. All that is for the people...its not for the dogs.

Form and function....if you have a dog that can get after it for 4-6 hours in the grouse woods or out on the grassland...and hunts into its teens....you have form and function. There's working conformation and there is show conformation...at the end of the day, both dogs covered the ground...but its the birds before the gun that matter.

I don't trust most show folks...they are willing to look past too much to justify pretty. Too many temperaments are quirky, hyper, uncooperative, even nasty .... but they're pretty...and folks have lots of 8x10 glossies on the wall and for too many folks, that's what its really about. The true "dual" folks are different and aren't to be confused with the blue haired ladies.

Let me say to the serious folks out there that are pursuing dual dogs for the right reasons....when you walk your dog on the trial grounds or at a training day, we all notice. You don't need to tell us the dog is a show champion... we know good dog flesh when we see it... of course, we expect you to show us in the field too. Certainly in Britts, there is no reason to breed to a pure show champion...there are just too many great dual dogs out there. And that's really the point...if you look hard enough in any breed you will find good looking dogs of talent...you don't need to breed to unknown ability and then sort it out later.

The practical side of the discussion is that you might get great puppies and then have trouble finding good hands that will prove the experiment worked. The public wants proof of performance and is highly suspicious of show dogs. A mating to Ch. King of the Winnebago may sound good but unless the "get" become the proof of the pudding...what did you prove?

[kninebirddog]

Sorry for throwing my 2 cents in here without reading all the posts but just the original question..our 2 setters..one bench and one field..one from jim gourley in kansas(field setter female from "shades") and the other from a showline from leamington..they look NOTHING alike..i wish i could figure out how to get pics on here to show you them..SO DIFFERENT..they look like 2 differrent breed of dogs..anyway i dont know what they would produce as far as pups but i can bet that it wouldnt qualify in the ring as far as breed standards..but in the field looks dont count..sorry if this was already said ....ruth

I like Gourley's Setters..I have run against them when we used to trial quite a bit over in Nebraska and Kansas and yes you can't get any more field then what Jim produces..his dogs are hunting fools

[mcbosco]

Ezzy has a great line on this topic, something like it costs the same to feed the pretty ones as the ugly ones. It is too easy to rationalize a dog that is way out of standard because it can find birds. We have guys in the office that make money the wrong way, and we don't tolerate it because in the long-run we all lose.

Maybe people in the east are more traditional, but we like our setters to look like setters, etc. All of these dogs were developed or evolved as dual purpose dogs and they should stay that way. Effective in the field, quiet and friendly with strangers and just when you are tired of them, they are tired of you and both take a nap.

Is that too much to ask?

[ezzy333]

Intensity makes sense. I'm not contradicting you by any means, but how does high tail carriage indicate a more powerful rear assembly? A well muscled, well built dog, free of luxating patellas and hip dysplasia, doesn't necessarily have high tail carriage.

That was a theory from one of our older trainers that never made any sense to me either if you look where the muscles are attached. They have nothing to do with the tail. For a matter of fact mst all animals built for speed carry the tail low probably for balance. Plus I think people get confused on the terms tail set and tail carraige.

The real reason is it help you see and find the dog when it was on point. From there, some people thought it looked stylish and it caught on. Much like what is called head crank today and a few people think it looks good and are breeding for it. Again, guess I am old fashioned but I still like the tails around 10 or 11 position as they look so much more natural and provide an atractive curve from the body. But it is just personal preference and we ought to be spending more time breeding for the other end of the dog.

Ezzy

[Jenna]

That was a theory from one of our older trainers that never made any sense to me either if you look where the muscles are attached. They have nothing to do with the tail. For a matter of fact mst all animals built for speed carry the tail low probably for balance. Plus I think people get confused on the terms tail set and tail carraige.

The real reason is it help you see and find the dog when it was on point. From there, some people thought it looked stylish and it caught on. Much like what is called head crank today and a few people think it looks good and are breeding for it. Again, guess I am old fashioned but I still like the tails around 10 or 11 position as they look so much more natural and provide an atractive curve from the body. But it is just personal preference and we ought to be spending more time breeding for the other end of the dog.

Ezzy

That makes sense. Much easier to see a tail that's sky high than one level with the topline.

I don't trust most show folks...they are willing to look past too much to justify pretty. Too many temperaments are quirky, hyper, uncooperative, even nasty .... but they're pretty...and folks have lots of 8x10 glossies on the wall and for too many folks, that's what its really about. The true "dual" folks are different and aren't to be confused with the blue haired ladies.

Let me say to the serious folks out there that are pursuing dual dogs for the right reasons....when you walk your dog on the trial grounds or at a training day, we all notice. You don't need to tell us the dog is a show champion... we know good dog flesh when we see it... of course, we expect you to show us in the field too. Certainly in Britts, there is no reason to breed to a pure show champion...there are just too many great dual dogs out there. And that's really the point...if you look hard enough in any breed you will find good looking dogs of talent...you don't need to breed to unknown ability and then sort it out later.

The practical side of the discussion is that you might get great puppies and then have trouble finding good hands that will prove the experiment worked. The public wants proof of performance and is highly suspicious of show dogs. A mating to Ch. King of the Winnebago may sound good but unless the "get" become the proof of the pudding...what did you prove?

I totally understand where you're coming from, on your opinion about show folks, but please let me say that the greater majority of show breeders DO care about temperament. If their dog's were nasty towards people or other dogs, or uncooperative, or spooks, or those who "see ghosts".... none of the these traits make for a good showdog temperament. If you don't have a good temperament you aren't going to win. Yes, of course, breeds like Kerry Blues are notorious for being land sharks, but that is a terrier characteristic, and as long as the dog isn't actually biting or is in an uncontrollable rage, and can easily be calmed down, it's just being a terrier. Now in breeds like ESS, where rage runs rampant, THAT is where I have an issue. These breeders know what lines carry rage, and still, they'll breed to it. But that's a whole other box of goodies that I'm not even going to get in to. Not today anyways. Ooooh and for the record....all our 8x10 glossies are piled on the desk, or shoved in a drawer.... no framing for us

[Cajun Casey]

Observations on tailset and overall structure can be found as far back as Lyon, in Tarrant on Smith and in Hastings.

[JKP]

I totally understand where you're coming from, on your opinion about show folks, but please let me say that the greater majority of show breeders DO care about temperament. If their dog's were nasty towards people or other dogs, or uncooperative, or spooks, or those who "see ghosts".... none of the these traits make for a good showdog temperament. If you don't have a good temperament you aren't going to win. Yes, of course, breeds like Kerry Blues are notorious for being land sharks, but that is a terrier characteristic, and as long as the dog isn't actually biting or is in an uncontrollable rage, and can easily be calmed down, it's just being a terrier. Now in breeds like ESS, where rage runs rampant, THAT is where I have an issue. These breeders know what lines carry rage, and still, they'll breed to it. But that's a whole other box of goodies that I'm not even going to get in to. Not today anyways. Ooooh and for the record....all our 8x10 glossies are piled on the desk, or shoved in a drawer.... no framing for us

Jenna,
Please don't think I meant ALL show people...but I have seen too many aggressive, skittish, edgey, etc dogs have brilliant show careers, and even given ROM (Rewards of Merit) for their contributions to a breed. I think one has to approach show dogs very cautiously and "proof" the people carefully. In the end, we would be better off to gather as enthusiasts and critique each others dogs and learn to see dogs for what they are and aren't than to award titles that too easily become a justification unto themselves. I like dogs with reach and drive...but they better be "wired" right and have the talent or I don't care how pretty they are.

Years ago, a famous breeder sent me a beautiful young bitch that was a head case...returned the dog after 3 months...nothing to be done...she went on to become a top national show dog and top producer...should have been spayed and sent to the farm. IMO...show dogs should be avoided at all cost....true dual lines are something different...but I'd still do the homework very thoroughly...its important to know what an owner is willing to "forgive" to win.

[Dave Quindt]

Observations on tailset and overall structure can be found as far back as Lyon, in Tarrant on Smith and in Hastings.

Just because they say it, doesn't mean it's true. None of those are experts in canine locomotion

If you look at other dog breeds known for speed and endurance you see none with high tail carriages. The tail is usually set evenly on the back, but the actual carriage is never high; in fact it's the opposite. Same goes in wild animals.

A high tail does not equate with intensity; an intense tail does. The exception is a tail in less than a 9:00 position; even if intense it still infers uncertainty or submission. What a high tail infers is that the dog most likely has not endured undo pressure in training while on point or around birds, as a dog with a naturally high tail carriage (as is standard here in North America) cannot be forced to point with a high tail.

A high tail is more a matter of style and preference than anything else. All one has to do is look at the pointers and setters of Europe to see perfectly fine birddogs with excellent speed and endurance without high tails. Because we've refined the development of the birddog to such a high degree, a 12:00 tail is not a hindrance to proper locomotion but it isn't a requirement either.

We've defined "style" as a dog that moves and points with a tail carriage above at least 10:00. I agree with it; to me it looks better. But to say it's necessary for proper locomotion is not something supported by science, regardless of what sporting press writers from Arizona or horse trainers from Oklahoma decide to put in a book.

FWIW,
Dave

[ezzy333]

Years ago, a famous breeder sent me a beautiful young bitch that was a head case...returned the dog after 3 months...nothing to be done...she went on to become a top national show dog and top producer...should have been spayed and sent to the farm. IMO...show dogs should be avoided at all cost....true dual lines are something different...but I'd still do the homework very thoroughly...its important to know what an owner is willing to "forgive" to win.

This is so very true and can be said about trialers, showers, and just palin hunters. We all want to blame someone else when it is us too.

Bad bites, poor temperments, oversized, terrible front shoulders, lack of hunting desire, the list goes on and on and they apply to every group.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

"A high tail is more a matter of style and preference than anything else. All one has to do is look at the pointers and setters of Europe to see perfectly fine birddogs with excellent speed and endurance without high tails. Because we've refined the development of the birddog to such a high degree, a 12:00 tail is not a hindrance to proper locomotion but it isn't a requirement either"

A tail held above the topline while on-point is typically penalized in continental breeds.

[Cajun Casey]

Mr. Quindt, you've lost me on your comments, but if what you say is true, then head cranking dogs risk drowning in the rain. The ability to assume a posture does not imply the dog remains in that posture. Dogs with high noon tails look no different than other dogs when at rest.

[JKP]

A tail held above the topline while on-point is typically penalized in continental breeds.

Huh???...What???? Penalized by who??? A gay tail (straight up or arched over the back) is penalized but a dog pointing at 11:00 is not penalized anywhere to my knowledge.

I think a lot of folks think that many of these longtails put the tail up when they point...in many cases that is false...the tails are always up...the tail my firm up but basically the tail is there all the time....has been bred that way...you can see it on a lot of websites...just a preferred look and doesn't indicate more intensity, desire, etc...you either like it or not...don't see why we pay attention to it.

[ezzy333]

The high tail is nothing more than the same carriage the terriers are known for. And most of them do carry it high all the time though a little lower than when on point or excited.

McBosco is right that most of Europe want the tails between 9 and 10 at the highest and it is bred to be that way.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

Mr. Quindt, you've lost me on your comments, but if what you say is true, then head cranking dogs risk drowning in the rain. The ability to assume a posture does not imply the dog remains in that posture. Dogs with high noon tails look no different than other dogs when at rest.

Gee, I thought Mr. Quint was extremely clear and completely accurate.

Ezzy

[Neil]

I have always believed that the best dogs had high tails, we bred for their other great attributes and the tail came along for the ride.

What I do know, is if a dog has been beat or shocked into submission he will point with a low tail, every time, so that is part of it.

As to the European dogs, we have had our top dogs (or most often their offsprings) win there, but I have never heard of one of their dogs winning in the US. Recently we had a French Brittany from here do very well over there.

But as already been pointed out, I have Brittanys and there is nothing to outcross, field and bench, they are the same dogs, as it should be. If it is not, one group is wrong,

Neil

[Cajun Casey]

Ezzy, I realize modern methods and advances on genetics have outdated some of Lyon, but saying he and Mrs. Hastings are not experts on locomotion is simply erroneous. Since you agree, perhaps you can validate that statement?

[KwikIrish]

Let me say to the serious folks out there that are pursuing dual dogs for the right reasons....when you walk your dog on the trial grounds or at a training day, we all notice. You don't need to tell us the dog is a show champion... we know good dog flesh when we see it... of course, we expect you to show us in the field too. Certainly in Britts, there is no reason to breed to a pure show champion...there are just too many great dual dogs out there. And that's really the point...if you look hard enough in any breed you will find good looking dogs of talent...you don't need to breed to unknown ability and then sort it out later.

Though you may find good looking dogs with talent, I think that the proportion severely lacks in some breeds. In those "challenged" breeds, there are very limited dogs who have the ability to find success in both worlds. Sure I can identify a hand full of breeders who are working on this very problem, but in some breeds, this "handful" doesn't consist of a number able of perpetuating the effort.

Personally, I see more people shy away from breeding to "the other side" because they are unknown. Breeding to something you know every animal behind can be the comfortable (and what some might consider logical) choice. You know the dogs, you know the probable outcome, you know what you are getting into. Slowly, I see people I know moving towards that line, and I am really excited to see this, but this won't happen in one day... not one week... or one year... I am excited to be a newer part of the field community, and I'm learning all I can. But until I get some real experience, I can't just choose a stud who has some field title and buy some vials from him. I think it's important that if I am going to try to aid the effort to bring the birdiness back to the dog, then I need to know what true birdiness is.

I think some might get the drive to breed to a dog with some field sense and choose a dog who may have the title, but lacks knowledge to find a dog with the true attributes that are going to contribute to the cause. Sure that breeder had good intentions, but just lacked the ability to be able to identify what they really wanted.

I guess what I am saying is that I think more people realize that the gap between some breeds bench vs. field ways are not in the best interest of the breeds, and I am motivated by efforts going on to work on said gap, but the options aren’t always plentiful, available, easy, or right for every person. I just hope that they try.

[adogslife]

Are you referring to high tail carriage or high tail set?

The tail has no effect on hindquarter movement.
A correctly set tail is usually not higher then 45 degrees.

[mountaindogs]

Ezzy and Dave, I agree.


I add

------>
^ ^

or
^
I__I
^ ^

hmmm... imagining myself developing a dog ages ago to locate and show me game....which one would I decide to name a "pointer?"

[mountaindogs]

ANd back to the original question, some lab breeders are doing this more and more. Not producing show ch or field ch, really but trying to bridge the gap that has developed. Maybe an attempt to "get back" the "original" labrador. ??

Some sheltie breeders (excuse my non gundog example) have put some emphasis on getting back herding instinct in the last few decades and the results are sometimes highER strung, noisier, barkier, less stable dogs, that do herd some, but lose ALOT of what made them popular. I mean they were always barky dogs, but triple that tendancy and you exceed my tolerence for it. Also they are worse with children, nippy, and chase everything that moves. BUT they can not turn it off. Like a heding dog. So then one must anaylize what the breed is really for AND what you really want, I suppose.

[CherrystoneWeims]

To the OP- There are a VERY few of us in my challenged breed (Weimaraners) who are crossing the lines and breeding show x field dogs together. It's not easy! It takes a lot of time and effort on my part to search out dogs who are suitable on both sides. So many of the field dogs have very poor conformation (and let me tell you many have poor temperaments!!) and so many on the show side are much too overdone, can't hunt, and have such soft temperaments that they wouldn't be able to take down fur or live in a kennel!

But it CAN be done!! I've searched for the best looking field dogs (there are some that could have been DC's but the owners had no desire to show their dogs) and I've also looked for the best show dogs in the field (I judge hunt tests) to cross back and forth. The secret that I've found is to take a tightly bred bitch and outcross to what you need.

One thing is that you CANNOT breed to the convenient dog that is in your area. You will probably have to go half-way across the country, breed to frozen semen, etc to get the job done. Be ruthless in your evaluation of your dogs. (don't be kennel blind which is what I see in a lot of breeders) Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. One of the most successful Weim breeders told me years back that breeding is a crapshoot and you do your best. But you must take chances!! I will never forget her words. She taught me so much even though I didn't have one of her dogs.

[Kiki's Mom]

I'm feeling a bit like a Johnny come lately to this thread however the outcrossing of field to bench and visa versa ideology is necessary to keep the Dual concept alive in ANY breed
I freely admit that I do it ALL THE time in my breeding program and I have pretty decent, favorable results. Last year's litter I took a purely field bred bitch to a show CH/AFC gun dog I knew to have superior drive, nose and style on his birds. Produced 9 pups, 4 of which went to competition homes. The remaining 5 went to companion hunt homes. To date 3 of the 4 are FT pointed , one is a new JH. ALL 4 plus a couple more are finishable in the show ring, with the bitch that I have, being dually pointed as well. They just turned a year old.
The key is knowing your lines, knowing your conformation and standard backward and forward, knowing the field performance record of the pair you intend to mate, and then hoping for a bit of blessings on the mating It DOES WORK. Lots of breeders do it.....just gotta read those pedigrees and know who is who.

[WALDMAN79]

I have a lab whose lines are bench and field, especially on his father's side. I get a lot of grief initially at trials because he's got the show dog looks, til he hunts. I read in the Retriever Journal a few issues back that there's a trend amongst some breeders to get their show lines back into the field. I hope that trend continues, I like the barrel chested, blocky headed lab over the leaner look. I've been approached by breeders to get him in the ring but not my style.