What Has X Taught You?

Birddogz
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:56 pm

Chukar12 wrote:So the dogs and the people hunt differently?
Which type is FTing trying to imitate?
Usually southern quail. That is where FTing started.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:59 pm

Birddogz wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:So the dogs and the people hunt differently?
Which type is FTing trying to imitate?
Usually southern quail. That is where FTing started.
If you take a look at how true "Southern" bird hunting is done you will find that it is very close to FT's. Mule wagons, handlers on horseback, Labs on the wagon to make the retrieve, etc. (although you won't find that part at a FT!)
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:01 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Birddogz wrote:You disagree? Hunting is the city. FTing is a building in a city. FTing is trying to imitate hunting. Hunting is the ultimate test of a gundog. I don't see how you would argue that point? That is common knowledge.

It seems to me that this whole argument is based on a false premis. Hunting and field trialing are sports that most of us do with dogs. If we are going to keep debating this then we have to get back to debating about the dogs and not the killing, winning, or the people. It's about the dogs. How many you kill has nothing to do with it, what kind of birds or how "wild" they are has nothing to do with it , and how many trials you win has nothing to do with it, since none of those things apply to both sides. The only thing you can argue is the quality of the dogs. And if you find that impossible then we should just drop the whole comparison and move on to something worth arguing.

That is what I have learned.

Ezzy
How wild your birds are certainly matters. Released birds are good for training a pup, after that get them on wild birds if at all possible. Normally, the better your dogs, the more you harvest. Especially if you only shoot birds that your dogs point. The best dogs are those that have hunted the greatest variety of game, and have learned to adjust and hunt them well.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by brad27 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:07 pm

This thread has taught me a few things:

1. Anyone who thinks hunting is better than field trialing is a fool.
2. Anyone who thinks field trialing is better than hunting is a fool.
3. Hunting and field trialing are both NON essentials. They are sport. Games. Hobbies. They don't really matter. (no offence to those of you who earn a living doing one or the other, or both. :mrgreen: )
4. Enjoy what you do, but don't think for one second that you chosen "game" is better than someone else's chosen "game".

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:11 pm

brad27 wrote:This thread has taught me a few things:

1. Anyone who thinks hunting is better than field trialing is a fool.
2. Anyone who thinks field trialing is better than hunting is a fool.
3. Hunting and field trialing are both NON essentials. They are sport. Games. Hobbies. They don't really matter. (no offence to those of you who earn a living doing one or the other, or both. :mrgreen: )
4. Enjoy what you do, but don't think for one second that you chosen "game" is better than someone else's chosen "game".
Hunting is the reason Homo sapiens sapiens are in existence. Hunting has been a pure essential throughout history. It is still a way to gain nutrition. I eat wild game 2-3 times per week. Hunting is ABSOLUTELY an essential to me. :D
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ayres » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:14 pm

I think what Ezzy was eluding to is the fact that judging a dog to figure out what is "best" or "better" will take so many variables that every person will have a different viewpoint. There's just no quantifiable standard that everyone will agree to use as a measuring stick.

As an example, I believe my bird dogs are the best. They each possess a single quality that no other bird dog in the world possesses: they're mine. That explanation is good enough for me, with no further justification needed. I don't care how many birds they put in my vest each hunt, nor how many ribbons they win. I'm not trying to convince anyone to share my opinion because 1) I know doing so would be futile and 2) I don't really care to do so.

Of course, I'm being facetious to prove a point. Once we all figure that out, we can put this "debate" to rest and begin to repair all of the damage it has created in the eyes of the people not involved, yet still subjected to viewing it.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:20 pm

I have never said my dogs are best. Just that the BEST test is wild birds in wild places. That is all.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:20 pm

Birddogz wrote:The comments that get to hunters are when a FT guy will ask ...What have you done? As if a FT is more superior to a hunter. It is a catch 22. If a hunter says I kill 120 roosters a year, the comment is almost always.."It shouldn't be about the kill." "You must live where there are a lot of birds, your dogs could still be junk." So there is no way a hunter can know about a quality dog unless he has FTed and won. I think this premise is ridiculous, and so do many other hunters. It is a slight, an arrogance of.,."I know more than you do, about dogs, I FT." :wink:

No it most assuredly is not a slight or an arroogance. It is an attempt at objectivity of a sort. It is an attempt to look beyond the kill to what got you there...the dog. It is an attempt to have your dog's performance, your pride and joy, evaluated by a disinterested third party who has no emotional attachment to the dog. We are all immensely proud of our dogs and sometimes it can be difficult to admit that they are not as perfect or as wonderful as we would like them to be.

I said before that I have heard a whole lot of folks tell me just how great their dogs were. And they meant it too. They were convinced their dog was the greatest thing since sliced bread. When I saw for myself...very often I did not see a dog that was anywhere near as great a bird dog as their fond and proud owner thought they were.

Most field trialers see more different dogs in a single day than most hunters see in a whole season. The more you look at your own dogs, the more likely you are to gloss over things you do not like about the way the dog does its job and the mre likely you are to exaggerate the things that the dog does that you do like. If you want to look at a whole bunch of dogs on birds, a field trial is the place to do it.

It is not uncommon for there to be thirty different dogs running on a given day at a trial. Thirty different dogs run by almost as many different handlers. All of them running more or less the same course, with the same opportunity to run , to hunt and to find birds. The more different dogs you see, the more likely it is that you will see things you like in a dog and things you do not like in a dog. It is called experience.

If you then take those things you like and do not like and compare your own dog's performance in the light of what other dogs have shown you, you can begin to be objective about your own dogs and their abilities. That is a really good way to move forward and improve, especially when we realize that, very often, our dogs are limited by what it is that we are able to teach them. We can be the problem...as hard as that is to admit.

The object of field trialing is not ...TO WIN... The object of field trialing is to get better so you CAN win. It, like any other sport is, or should be about the journey...not the destination.

RayG

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ayres » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:22 pm

Birddogz wrote:I have never said my dogs are best. Just that the BEST test is wild birds in wild places. That is all.
That's my point. Not everyone agrees with using that as a measuring stick. Therefore, you can argue until you're blue in the face but if your debaters aren't using the same measuring stick that you are, then there will never be an accord. Just a lot of arguing.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by birddogger » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:34 pm

Ayres wrote:I think what Ezzy was eluding to is the fact that judging a dog to figure out what is "best" or "better" will take so many variables that every person will have a different viewpoint. There's just no quantifiable standard that everyone will agree to use as a measuring stick.

As an example, I believe my bird dogs are the best. They each possess a single quality that no other bird dog in the world possesses: they're mine. That explanation is good enough for me, with no further justification needed. I don't care how many birds they put in my vest each hunt, nor how many ribbons they win. I'm not trying to convince anyone to share my opinion because 1) I know doing so would be futile and 2) I don't really care to do so.

Of course, I'm being facetious to prove a point. Once we all figure that out, we can put this "debate" to rest and begin to repair all of the damage it has created in the eyes of the people not involved, yet still subjected to viewing it.
Well said. Fortunately, my dogs have to please only one person. :D

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by bhulisa » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:41 pm

A Cherokee saying:
"Listen! Or your tongue will make you deaf"

This applies to both human and dog language :wink:

Trust your dog. Respect your dog.

Enjoy your sport and allow other people to enjoy theirs.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:41 pm

Ray,
You don't think that hunting 50-70 days ayear for decades affords a person knowledge of what a good dog is? I've hunted over hundreds in my life. Hunting for a day also gives you a better idea of what a dog is like, rather than an hour.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:42 pm

Ayres wrote:
Birddogz wrote:I have never said my dogs are best. Just that the BEST test is wild birds in wild places. That is all.
That's my point. Not everyone agrees with using that as a measuring stick. Therefore, you can argue until you're blue in the face but if your debaters aren't using the same measuring stick that you are, then there will never be an accord. Just a lot of arguing.
If there are people on this forum who don't think the ultimate goal of any gundog is to handle wild birds in wild places, I would be shocked.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Birddogz,

Any decently bred dog given experience can and should be able to go out and point wild birds. I see it all the time, now taking any decently bred dog and winning FT's...... probably not gonna happen. I think the large majority of well bred dogs could be kick "bleep" hunting dogs, but the large majority of those would never win a FT. I just want both, which is what a lot of guys out here have. We have FT dogs that we hunt. You have a dog that hunts, but can he win a FT? Probably not. So is my dog better than yours? There are dogs here that win trials all the time, and they shoot wild birds over them all the time. So are they better dogs than yours? Just curious.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ayres » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:01 pm

Birddogz wrote:
Ayres wrote:
Birddogz wrote:I have never said my dogs are best. Just that the BEST test is wild birds in wild places. That is all.
That's my point. Not everyone agrees with using that as a measuring stick. Therefore, you can argue until you're blue in the face but if your debaters aren't using the same measuring stick that you are, then there will never be an accord. Just a lot of arguing.
If there are people on this forum who don't think the ultimate goal of any gundog is to handle wild birds in wild places, I would be shocked.
Then you probably stand to be pretty shocked. I'm fairly certain that most people on this forum keep a dog's hunting ability as but one of several equally-important goals, with the "ultimate" goal being to simply find happiness with their dogs, however that tends to occur.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:06 pm

by Birddogz
If there are people on this forum who don't think the ultimate goal of any gundog is to handle wild birds in wild places, I would be shocked.
That is an axiom and inarguable, specific to a time place and situation, it is also completely ...completely...completely subjective and only measurable by an individual.

The real argument and where I take umbridge with you in particular Birddogz is the insistance that there is a divide, that there are two sides and one is purposely oppressing the other...You give me a ringing in my mind that makes me see and hear you as Mr Mandelbaum (sp) on Seinfeld saying, " So you think you are better than me?"

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:08 pm

C-12,
I do not believe modern FTing is trying to emulate any kind of hunting, as most people know I train Grouse dogs for our clients who Grouse hunt. These Grouse hunters don't even play cover dog games. Long ago George Ryman walked away from the hunting dog competitions, because the dogs no longer had to stand point and have a bird
shot over them and retrieve the bird to hand. Those early hunt competitions emulated real Grouse hunting, removing any part of it and you are now playing a social game that can be rigged, using other cryteria for awarding wins. Cryteria like high tails, break aways and such, are deemed more important than how many birds are found and pointed (set) for the masters gunning. Today one has little to do with the other. If you pick up Davis's old book you will read about all the different kinds of gun dogs,
he points out each different kind of bird dog and what that dog was bred to hunt. Yep a Grouse dog is not a Pheasant dog and a Quail dog is not a Chukar dog,
gun dogs are actually bred to do different jobs, some gun dogs do hunt most birds fairly well, but are usually a master of just one. Many modern Breeders/Trainers will tell a prospective owner differently, that all gun dogs can hunt all game birds equally well. The National Grouse Championship when a bird actually had to be killed, distroyed this myth however, course that is why today they do not shoot birds and have them retrieved either, it real hard to rig a competition where the dogs had to actually
preform all aspects of a real Grouse hunt. The men who developed both Ames and the National Grouse Championship understood the importance of hunt testing their animals, but as they passed away, the rules were changed, eventually it became more important for the right social people to win titles to sell their animals, than for actual hunt testing of great gun dogs. Modern Fting has absolutely nothing to do with actual hunting.
RGD/Dave

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:10 pm

I have learned through my personal experience and dealings that sometimes trialing and hunting can go hand in hand and sometimes one is a detriment to the other. First off I want to explain where I get my experience from.

I deal with trialers on dogs. My dogs come from kennels that are mostly trial kennels. Most dogs I have owned in recent years have come from trial kennels. In my immediate area I deal with and know 3 or 4 very successful trialers personally whom I buy or even receive dogs from free of charge. Of these trialers only one of them hunts during the season. A trialer friend of mine from down around Boys Ranch outside of Amarillo, Texas is usually too busy traveling around the country attending trials all over the south and midwest to hunt when not working his regular job. As a matter of fact when I talked to him via phone a few weeks ago he told me he was going to clean his guns and admire them because it was that time but they were basically just safe queens. His kennel is situated out in the middle of nowhere in some of the best wild quail habitat that Texas has to offer. He trials on wild birds in the ABHA and trains and finishes his dogs on wild birds with some pen raised quail thrown in for yard work. That being said he won Dog of the Year for the ABHA in 2009 and won ABHA national championship in 2009 with a different dog. He must be doing something right. That same gentleman has no means of whelping pups at his kennel it is strictly set up for trial dogs and client dogs. He is bringing a bred female to me and my family to whelp out for him so that the pups will be socialized and have the proper amount of human interaction early in life to develop correctly psychologically. Another trialer friend of mine who is an ex chemist who used to work for one of the largest pharmacuetical companies in the U.S. now owns his own State Farm insurance company. He does not hunt either and his reason is he breeds dogs and is looking for the next field trial champion. He does not train, evaluate, handle, or raise his own dogs. All he does is breed them and turn them over to his partner that lives down in Texas to do all the necessary field work to turn them into champions. He has a very well known EP bloodline but many of his dogs don't turn out because if they don't make trial dogs because of a physical imperfection or psychological reasons and can't be sold immediately they sit in a kennel with no human interaction except for the times the automatic feeders are filled a couple of times a week. Some of these dogs I have taken, worked on birds and they turn out fine and some just never develop correctly at all. Another trialer friend of mine does not have time to hunt because they were very successful and now have so many client dogs that they are too busy training to even think about hunting. I once took a female out to his kennel to breed with his personal gundog and he pointed at somewhere between 20 and 30 dogs and said that all of these dogs belong to people who make over $100,000 a year and they pay me around $500 a month for training fees. My other friend is probably the best trainer out of all of them and spends countless hours with his dogs training, trialing and hunting them but he is in his late 30's and is single with no children, so he has time when not working his regular job to spend with his dogs. He also runs GSP's but I won't go into that. :lol: Just kidding Charlie. :lol: So sometimes trialing can be a detriment to hunting and what it takes to be a good hunting dog.

Now on the flip side of that this website has brought to light the importance for me anyway of bloodlines. I prefer Fiddler and Miller bloodlines in my English Pointers and prefer to stay away from the heavy bred Elhew dogs. Just my personal choice and experience. Before this website I used to think that a hunting dog was a hunting dog just a different breed. I now know through countless hours of research on my own and on this website that different bloodlines bring different things to the table and you have to decide for yourself what type of bloodlines and what type of traits you are looking for whether you are a hunter or a trialer. I like big running dogs that seem to do everything naturally such as retrieve, back, check in, stand steady to flush at an early age and steady to the shot at a later age, start hunting at an early age, are bold, gunproof easy, are very intelligent and are just people pleasers. I get this with these 2 lines. Without field trialers and field trialing these bloodlines may never have been developed and I definitely would never have known about them without this site and the aid of trialer friends of mine. Trialing has brought the development of the different breeds and especially the different bloodlines farther faster than they would have ever progressed without trialing venues. So you see sometimes trialing does have it's advantages. I personally would love to field trial and put my dogs up against the big boys. Unfortunately my current financial situation and demographic location prevent this. I just live too far from the trials and and don't make enough money to cover travel expenses. The entry fees seem reasonable for some that I have looked at. $40-$95 is not bad for an entry fee. It is the rest of the expense I cannot afford right now.

The point I was trying to make is that sometimes trialing and hunting go hand in hand and sometimes the cancel each other out but in the bird dog world both serve their purpose and just because you do not have a judge in the field with you does not mean you don't have a good dog and on the other hand just because you don't shoot birds in a trial or you trial on pen raised birds that do not resemble the behavior of wild birds or you do not simulate real life hunting situations does not mean the dogs are not good for the venue you run. Just my .02

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:22 pm

Ryman I would have to disagree with the thought that each breed is bred to do different things. I have seen almost all breeds of dogs hunt chukars and they are all successful. I have seen DD's, wirehairs, pointing griffons, GSP's, English Pointers and English Setters all point and handle wild chukars effectively. My EP is basically a line bred Sir Lancelot dog, I would bet alot of money neither of his close relatives have ever seen a wild chukar. But that little dude knocks em dead! I think its exposure and letting those natural abilities come through.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:40 pm

Dave,

Just another example of the man keeping you down?
eventually it became more important for the right social people to win titles to sell their animals
Do you want them to change it back for you, or are you trying to discourage anyone who may consider participating from doing such? Perhaps their involvement would accelerate the fall of our republic into socialism or an anarchy run by a rogue group of field trialers and breeders heck bent on destroying the time honored tradition of grouse dogs in the great north east?

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by northern cajun » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:56 pm

This is getting interesting :D :D :D :D

Here we go again FT vs Hunting dogs. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
GOD BLESS

DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Joe Amatulli » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:39 pm

Dave what trial are you talking about, I’ve been trialing for over 25 years, been to hundreds of events and this is all news to me. Sounds like someone went to a trial and got beat, so there for it must be crocket.

This is diffently getting enteresting!

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Winchey » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:58 pm

"Hunting is the reason Homo sapiens sapiens are in existence. Hunting has been a pure essential throughout history. It is still a way to gain nutrition. I eat wild game 2-3 times per week. Hunting is ABSOLUTELY an essential to me".

Eating meat is “a” reason homo sapiens exist. Homo sapiens would not exist as we know it or maybe at all if we hadn’t found better ways of obtaining our food. The plains Indians in North Dakota would not have spent their time and energy chasing pheasants with dogs, and feeding those dogs to simply put pheasants in the bag. That is if there were bird dogs and pheasant in North Dakota a few hundred years ago.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:00 pm

C-12,
No sir, you are getting this wrong, I do not want them to change and I do not want to influence anyone into not participating in FT. I am simply answering your question.
I have my own little nitch in the world and train Grouse hunting dogs from many different breed lines. I respect the FT people for what they add to the gun dog world,
but my respect does not make me blind to the fact that they breed many many dogs to produce one champion animal. IMO doing this is wrong, a breeder should be looking
to have outstanding repetative high quailty litters, both in health and talent. I sure do not expect the FT people to agree with me, however when a man comes looking for my help because he has lost his latest FT discard, because the dog ran off and was killed by a car, even after the dog was professionally trained by the breeder who supplied him with the dog. Its not hard to see the actual bidability of the different dogs. One is bred to independently point birds, the other is bred to work with his companion master, while hunting. Fighting the genetic imprint can be accomplished, but there are definate draw backs, that the FT breeders most times fail to warn prospective owners of, before they sell their FT discards to an unsuspecting 1st time dog owner, who want a companion hunting dog. Believe me when I tell you these owners only have this happen one time before they come looking for my kind of help. Once these prospective owners see our companion hunting dogs in the Grouse woods, they never purchase another FT discarded dog. Their question to me every time is why did they not tell me there are different kinds of dogs.
Now I don't hold the 1st time prospective owner accountable for this mistake, it even happens to 2nd time owners, when their 1st FT dog conforms to their hunting needs with heavy handed e-collar workage, then all of a sudden they are sold a completely independent dog, who fails to conform to their companion hunting needs and gets itself killed. I just acquired another client who fell into this situation, this past season. Modern FT breeding has little to do with actual hunting, their breeders are breeding independent hunting dogs, not companion hunting dogs.
RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:08 pm

Dave,

In a post that I created some time ago, for board response, over 80% of the people used FT credentials of whatever form, as a key component of their purchase. Are they collectively wrong? What you present as your niche, I would not argue in your portion of the world is beneficial. You have a limited clientele in the scope of hunting geography. Where my hunting is primarily done, big ground coverage, tight feet, athleticism and radiators are the physical attributes needed to go with things, like nose and instinct. The modern pointer, GSP and Brittany among others serve that well, cannot have a bootlicker windshield wipering their way around the base of the mountain. Does that make me wrong?

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Dirtysteve » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:29 pm

Image

Grouse bred dog?
I don't think so
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=350

I just don't understand this fight? I hunt and trial.

Joe and all you other guys out there producing a dog that can be succesful in both hunting and trialing Thank you!
I won't be forced to choose between hunting or trialing because I enjoy both very much.
Why limit yourself?

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:59 pm

Brandon we know that a dog that has any intelligence & is worth feeding can adapt to most any game,terrain,hunting,F Trialing,walking,HB,F wheelers & so on & so on but we will never convince some that just can't believe it even after it has been proven time & time again.You here everyday how the East coast dogs can't perform in the west & vice versa but once given the chance that all turns into BS!! Just like most of this thread. :D

The first pick female out of Star's last litter went to a Grouse hunting home in PA & even though Star & Doc are so called American Bred big running FT GSPS I will bet she becomes a fantastic Grouse Dog!!
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:00 pm

C-12,
Your belief that I own boot lickers is highly mistaken and my dogs work every bit as big as yours do. Do not mistake bidability with range, they are not the same.
I do understand where you hunt a big running dog is definitely desired and most times manditory, now if you brought your dogs to the big thick Pa Grouse woods would they
hunt for you the same as they do in your big open western country? Just because a dog runs big does not mean he is an FT type dog, I have a Gordon Grouse dog who probably runs bigger than any dog you might own, I am not talking distance here, I am talking instinctive companion hunting.
RGD/Dave

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:04 pm

Amazing how this post started off pretty good then boy talk about getting derail :evil:

Lets try this one more time to get this post back on track


one of the best ah ha's was years ago when I stopped trying to treat horse handling and dog handling as two totally separate types of training they both are pack/herd animals and need a leader

Or one back from my horse days
When there is a gathering of men and horses there is always more horses____ then horses

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by birddogger » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:16 pm

He also runs GSP's but I won't go into that
Watch it Tom, I represent that remark. :lol:

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:18 pm

Ryman,
I don't believe I have mistaken biddability with range, have you? I have grouse hunted a number of times off foot, and we do in fact have a similar quarry in terms of habitat with mountain quail in the sierra nevada mountains. How many times have you hunted wild chukar in say the mountains similar to those behind the photo in Dirty Steve's picture? How many field trials have you placed in or entered in? They need not be revered by you, but do you have the background to impune them? Of course you don't. Anymore than I would question or belittle a grouse hunter born and bred in those woods. You state your opinion as fact and then you are flooded by those who would refute it with their own experiences, how do you justify maintaining it as a position of fact rather than stating it is an opinion.

I assume that since you mention Ames the revered board members there are subject to your proclimation of inpropriety? Boy they slipped up last year...It must be exausting and socially akward to forever twist a reality until it is so confining that it cannot be escaped.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Dirtysteve » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:27 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Ryman,
I assume that since you mention Ames the revered board members there are subject to your proclimation of inpropriety?
Chukar12
Please dumb it down a little. Way to many big words for a guy that hunts Chukars :mrgreen:

Ted
I hear you loud and clear!

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:30 pm

yeah well some are misspelled so replace them with whatever you find convenient...I lost my purpose anyhow...

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:44 pm

FTs are great. FT dogs are superior to all dogs. Anyone who hunts and doesn't trial, is an idiot. Wild birds don't matter, planted birds are just as good. A guy on a preserve in Mass knows every bit as much as someone in the prairie about wild birds. Even if he has hunted there for decades. We are all the same. :D I just want to fit in with the liberal crowd. :D
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:46 pm

Gentlemen,
No doubt you live in an area where most of your dogs can handle western Grouse, and your dogs will handle them pretty well, and most Grouse dogs do handle Pheasants and most other birds, excepting Mearns Quail until they educate themsleves. We have had numerous men who Grouse hunt out west, come visit our Pa mountians
with their dogs, stay a complete week and only have their dogs point two birds that they were unable to shoot. This is not uncommon for dogs who have not handled our spooky Grouse before, their masters usually become quite humble after the 2nd or 3rd day out. We have about 110 million acres of thick Forest here that we Grouse hunt, and the dogs move where the birds are to set them up for gunning. More than once men have come here to Grouse hunt believing their dogs were well trained, and lost their dog for a complete day sometimes two. We have a big Deer, Bear and Turkey population here, not to mention other small critters, and a lot of the time you can not see your dog while it hunts. Independent hunting dogs can disappear in the blink of an eye. An owner finds out real quickly, if his dog is a companion hunting dog here in our mountains, no matter how well he thinks his dog is trained, genetics never lies. We have never let or visiters loose a dog completely while Grouse hunting, although a couple of the SF EP's & the Llews have been gone for more than 3 days, having a ball in the Grouse woods. They hold the Cover Dog trails about 150 miles from here in Marianville, Pa in a smaller section of Grouse woods, every year they loose a couple dogs that need to be picked up after the competition ends, genetics is a wonderful thing.
Now I know you gentlemen who have real FT stock think your dogs are companion hunting dogs also, and some do make the cut both ways, but very very few. If you ever get out this way I invite you to Grouse hunt our big woods with us and see for your self how well your dog hunts on our Grouse mountain. No matter what happens we will not belittle or play games with you, we treat everyone with respect here, the ladies are invited also, you might meet some people you have seen before from different walks of life, expect to be surprised, and you will probably be teased about your favorite Grouse gun.

RGD/Dave

Yep the dogs are out there somewhere
Image

Image

This time we get lucky and they are locked up, on the tram road.

Image

The results of great dog work and some serious gunning

Image
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:56 pm

Ryman, thank you for the civil tone, Most of the time the guys we bring out from the east and think they have a trained dog struggle to find out because they are too out of shape to climb...oh and they don't own a vehicle that can get them to the hunting grounds...oh and they don't want their gun scratched...but we never let em fail the whole time, we get em on some huns or valley quail...
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:12 pm

C-12,
Thanks for taking it the way I meant, we do have our snob rick guy hunters and some are even my clients. I have hunted MT and I know what you mean about being in shape, just had a heart attack in January, doubt I will be running the big mountains in MT any time soon. Slow and easy for a while, stinking Agent Orange finally caught up with me. I was lucky to get thru it and the Doc says I will get 20 or 30 more healthy years, cause of the way the operation turned out.

gpBlitz,
What kind of dogs were they hunting with, I bet none were Ryman Setters, let me guess, EP's and Llews or Brits. I understand some places in your Minn forest
are as thick as our Pa Grouse woods.

RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by dan v » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:15 pm

gpblitz wrote: Being a local boy in a sparsely pop. area where every body basicly knows everybody or some of your kin it was the best insurance.
Hey, who you think you're kidding here? They don't know your kin.....they ARE your kin...Jethro :mrgreen:
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:17 pm

Well, dogs and the country you live in should be the best therapy...I do wish you the best.

PS... Hunt with Birddogz, he is of like mind and a Dr.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:23 pm

Exactly Howie & that was the point of my post above,yeah coming from west to east or vice versa the dogs are going to take a little time to adjust but given the chance they will.Wow! some here are just too into themselves to understand it takes a little while to Acclaimate,Dave if you went out west to hunt do you think you could handle the altitude & Mts just like PA.Man give the dogs that same credit & time.I think Ryman & Birddogz are related!! :lol:
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:25 pm

WynDancer,
Congrats on the nice article they did on your dogs in Gun Dog, very nice sir. Some day I would very much like to see your Gordons work the Grouse mountains,
I have been reading and hearing good things about them.

Von,
Have hunted out west many times, we are talking genetics here, your GSP is a completely different Versatile type dog, some make great Grouse dogs, others not so much at all.
Most western Grouse or far northern Grouse are no where near as spooky as our Pa birds, most dogs can handle western or far northern Grouse, you are welcome to come
over from Ohio and see if your GSP is a Grouse dog this coming season. Would love to meet you and your GSP. Make sure your GSP will return to a beeper command,
if you decide to come.



RGD/Dave

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:06 pm

Wow this sure has gone off track!

Arlette said it right. One of the things I have learned also is that some of the best dog people have their start in horses. There's something about a good horse person that translates to dogs and they can understand body language.

Now I do have to say that a good dog is a good dog. It's all about exposure. A good dog adapts to its surrounding and the birds it is hunting. I've had dogs go from hunting quail in TX to hunting pheasant in the Dakotas all in a week. I've had dogs go from hunting the plains to hunting the piney woods to hunting the woods of NJ within a few weeks. I hunt my dogs on quail and woodcock here in the piney/oak woods and broomstraw of SC and then go to hunting the very wet woods of NJ all without missing a beat.

Ryman, your woods look no thicker than our piney/oak woods here in SC. Our quail are also very spooky.
Last edited by CherrystoneWeims on Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by gozz21 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:15 pm

I have learned that when I open the general chat forum on gundogforum to not open any threads with 2 or more pages because no matter what the title is, it always goes into FT vs Hunting dogs arguing crap.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:19 pm

Cherrystone,
If you have a male Weimar who can repeatedly handle our Pa spooky Grouse, I got a female Weimer who needs to meet him. Please come up to our training facility and let me see your Weimar work our Grouse woods this next season, you can stay at my place as long as you like.

Gozz, not arguing going on, just a friendly discussion.

RGD/Dave

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:46 pm

Like I said you & BD are related maybe twins you have hunted all across the country & only your dogs put more game in the bag faster & better then anyone elses.I have hunted a few grouse here in Ohio with FT American Bred GSPS.We don't have the number of birds as you do in PA but I have serious doubt your Gouse are any more spooky then here. :)

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:54 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Like I said you & BD are related maybe twins you have hunted all across the country & only your dogs put more game in the bag faster & better then anyone elses.I have hunted a few grouse here in Ohio with FT American Bred GSPS.We don't have the number of birds as you do in PA but I have serious doubt your Gouse are any more spooky then here. :)
Bro, I am from OHIO! I moved for a reason. :wink: I can tell you that if you are serious about bird hunting, you need to move. Ohio is a joke. In the 80s there were adequate populations of grouse, but no longer. By the way....OH-
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ayres » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:07 pm

Birddogz wrote:By the way....OH-
I N I

Wait, that's not how you start that chant... Let's try it again... I L L -
- Steven

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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:13 pm

-IO! 24-0 in basketball, and the best record in BCS competition in football. The most wins in BCS history. Go Buckeyes!!!!!! Sorry that you are from IL. It must suck to lose all the time. LOL In Tressel we trust! :D :D :D :D Not trying to be rude, but come on.. :D
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Ken Lynch » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:30 pm

Boy do you guys need to go back to my definition of tact.
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Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
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Re: What Has X Taught You?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:45 pm

Big Sully!!!! :D
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

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