Buying a puppy with full rights?

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:57 pm

Ezzy, the breeders site was linked in this thread on page one.

Since she was offended someone might have called or sent an unnecessary e-mail that offended her as a breeder. Although her dogs are not hunting dogs she does participate in NAVHDA. At least this is stated on her web site. This breeding might produce some fine hunting pups. What it all boiled down to was the way she wrote her contract not all approved of it.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:27 pm

Two thoughts on this:

1. If the breeder was offended by the discussion of her contract, it was of her own doing. She wrote the contract and that is what was being discussed and debated. If she really believes that she gives her puppy buyers a fair shake with that deal, then there is nothing to be offended about.

2. If the breeder was offended by comments in posts gained from public knowledge about her own website, then she should change her website so she won't be embarassed or offended by its discussion. If someone said that she breeds "show dogs" after viewing her website, and she didn't like that, then the site should be changed so people don't leave with that impression.

Bottom line is, the original poster was well within his rights to try to make sense of a dog contract by asking for outside help and opinions. He knows what the contract means, he just didn't know if those terms were normal. And he's only going to get the breeder's opinion on what's "normal" if he only tried to work out the issue in private.

He's just not in the best bargaining position having never dealt with a contract like this before. A breeder that gets offended because the original poster tried to educate himself about contractual norms gives me the impression that she didn't want him to be fully educated on the matter in the first place. Draw your own conclusions from that.

Finally, the best part about this being a public forum is that registration is free. The breeder could, just as easily as any one of us, sign up and start posting herself. If we all have the wrong idea, she could clear it up in a matter of minutes.

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:02 am

Casper wrote:Ezzy, the breeders site was linked in this thread on page one.

And I even referred to her dog by name. Though I did point out that she had so far performed nicely in testing. I for one, did not mean to knock her dogs and appologize if my remarks were offensive.

Ayres wrote:If the breeder was offended by comments in posts gained from public knowledge about her own website, then she should change her website so she won't be embarassed or offended by its discussion. If someone said that she breeds "show dogs" after viewing her website, and she didn't like that, then the site should be changed so people don't leave with that impression.

This is what I meant by my "talk the talk" comment.

gusto · Post by **gusto** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:28 am

GSPaddict, go to Niagra Falls (Ont) and look up Redstag kennels. Top NAVHDA stuff, i think he has a litter on the ground right now. REAL NICE dogs, $850 Cdn, cant go wrong IMO.

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:42 am

Ayres wrote:Two thoughts on this:

1. If the breeder was offended by the discussion of her contract, it was of her own doing. She wrote the contract and that is what was being discussed and debated. If she really believes that she gives her puppy buyers a fair shake with that deal, then there is nothing to be offended about.

2. If the breeder was offended by comments in posts gained from public knowledge about her own website, then she should change her website so she won't be embarassed or offended by its discussion. If someone said that she breeds "show dogs" after viewing her website, and she didn't like that, then the site should be changed so people don't leave with that impression.

Bottom line is, the original poster was well within his rights to try to make sense of a dog contract by asking for outside help and opinions. He knows what the contract means, he just didn't know if those terms were normal. And he's only going to get the breeder's opinion on what's "normal" if he only tried to work out the issue in private.

He's just not in the best bargaining position having never dealt with a contract like this before. A breeder that gets offended because the original poster tried to educate himself about contractual norms gives me the impression that she didn't want him to be fully educated on the matter in the first place. Draw your own conclusions from that.

Finally, the best part about this being a public forum is that registration is free. The breeder could, just as easily as any one of us, sign up and start posting herself. If we all have the wrong idea, she could clear it up in a matter of minutes.

I agree 100% with this post.

txtrigger2003 · Post by **txtrigger2003** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:30 pm

Ayres -- well said

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:44 pm

Aryes...couldn't agree more that was truely very well said.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:24 pm

Why should she have to defend herself on an internet chat list?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:51 pm

I would not call it defending herself....

If she was offended because a person wanting to Educate themselves....then this also sends up a red flag to me

people have to remember they are NOT the only ones who breed dogs...
I breed dogs and tell people to seek out and research what they want and should expect from a breeder
I have recommended other breeders who breed the same dogs I do....I have also tried to help people open their eyes to those breeders who think they are the only ones that can produce quality animals with over zealous contracts.

This contract is one I myself would not buy from nor try and do to any one who purchases a pup from me...
I do try and help educate buyers about proper methods and breeding practices I do try everything to help lead by example but do not ever want to make myself look like a elitist ....

So If this person feels they must defend themselves because a person wanted to educate themselves and They don't like it ...I would also have a problem with that as that sounds like they are afraid that there really is something better out there...
BUT this person hasn't stepped forward to say why they do this but the already have made a prospective buyer wiser by telling them that they were offended by this prospective buyer questioning and EDUCATING themselves...This tells me they are trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes with fancy special contract making people believe they are getting something more then what other more qualified people offer in the HUNTING breed

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:11 pm

Margaret wrote:Why should she have to defend herself on an internet chat list?

It's only "defending" herself if she was offended. If she was offended, take a look back at numbers 1 and 2 above.

Otherwise, you can just call it "clearing up a misconception," and she would be well within her rights to do so - just like the prospective buyer is within his rights to educate himself on puppy contract norms.

Do you really believe that this woman should be offended by GSPAddict's questions about whether this type of contract is normal? If so, that seems like a very substantial barrier to a prospective buyer... if they can't educate themselves without offending the breeder. In that case, every breeder on the planet could claim offense if someone questioned their contract, and thus nobody would be educated in those regards.

No, this is an instance where she is being too sensitive if she truly feels offended, and she needs to get over it because GSPAddict did absolutely nothing wrong, morally or socially.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:27 am

The bottom line is, Breeders can post any arrangement they feel is fair for their puppies. I do not knock Addict for wondering about it, this Forum is here for advice and help. There are contracts that require you give them the bitches first litter, there are contracts that require a dog be put down in order to get a replacement pup, there are contracts that give the breeder 1st 2 pups including pick pup from a litter, there are contracts that only sell females limited. I think if you put it on paper you should not be offended by scrutiny. The breeder can refuse to sell (and we do all the time), and a buyer can go elsewhere if not in agreement. That is what a contract is for, to agree to terms. I know this breeder has quality dogs and is breeding for dogs that can field and show and thats a "good" thing in my book.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:21 am

I don't think GSPAddict ever said anything that misrepresented the information or the contract. I think his questions were honest in that he was truly looking for information and an unbiased opinion from others. Good for him. Also the breeder has put all the information discused here, in the public forum. It is hard to believe she has problems with us discussing what she has on HER website. We all make our own judgments about whether or not a breeder is a good fit for us. Contracts ,health guarantees, and limited registrations were all concerns when I was looking. I hope you find what you are looking for Addict.

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:28 pm

I said I would not post again but hey... can't resist....

I just want to add that even if this contract doesn't suit me, it will certainly fit other buyers who won't mind at all.

Theses are quality dogs, there is no question about it. But people check reviews and ask opinions on boards on MP3 players, guns, cars, etc. I think it makes even more sense to do it with a companion with whom you will spend 10-15 years and will be part of your family and that you will fear to loose, not like one of your gadgets . This is how I feel.

I think this turned into a constructive discussion, your opinions are appreciated.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:38 am

what happened to the breeder's web page?

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:11 am

Richard *UT* wrote:what happened to the breeder's web page?

I would be flattered if my web pag was getting this much attention. I wonder why she took it off of the internet?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:46 pm

Hopefully to rethink and redesign and come back with a page which is better suited for promoting her breeding under the right light...

It does look like they have the right concept and back grounds on blood...But first things should be what the Dogs were bred for then adding the extra pleasures of companions with versatile backgrounds.
AS for teh contract..that is her business how she plans on doing that but hopefully she looks at this as an opportunity to grow and send the right message