Buying a puppy with full rights?

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:52 am

Hello, what an amazing forum, tons of nice people and info!

Here is my question ,

I made a reservation with a german shorthair pointer breeder recently and he made me aware that I have to agree not to breed the dog. This will be in the contract.

I can understand the reasons why he would want to prevent breeding, but at 900$ (can) for a puppy, I think it is much to ask.
Note that I have no problem with the price, but not having full rights at that price...... I don't know...

Who knows , maybe in a couple of years, If I get very GSP oriented and would like to research the perfect female for my male, maybe I would consider it. If the puppy was 600$, then it would be a different story.

I would really appreciate your opinion on this, am I the one who is asking too much?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:14 pm

There are plenty of quality breeders out there ...I would think about doing some more research on other breeders

For that price I would expect full rights to the dog ....?

I do ask people who purchase pups to seriously think about breeding and what a quality litter should entail...But I do not meddle in what they do after I have sold them the pup for...
If i have a pup which I do not want in the gene pool I will sell them for 300 bucks and give papers with limited status after proof of altering but my regular prices are 600-700 for pups with full papers

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:23 pm

If the breeder is saying that you cannot breed the pup, then it should be at a lesser price than the other pups.

I can see where a breeder could make the call that a certain pup would or would not be good breeding stock. Some breeders require a spay/neuter in a contract before selling these dogs. (They are generally referred to as going to "pet homes" but the dogs will hunt. They just have something that makes them not a good candidate for breeding, be it a bad bite, over or under-sized, etc.) I've not seen that happen and the breeder still charge full price though.

What is the breeder getting ($) for the other pups? $1200?

Also, some breeders will only sell on limited registration or co-ownership and will make the decision later to evaluate the dog for breeding purposes. Then they may allow you to breed the dog by taking off the limited registration or releasing co-ownership.

Really, your question is a valid one but only one that can be answered by the breeder. Otherwise, all we're doing is speculating as to the reasons.

Post by **pear** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:56 pm

GSPaddict I can't answer your question directly, because I have no idea who the breeder is or how the contract reads. However many good breeders will sell a pup with limited registration, and allow no breeding. Then after certain requirements are met, and they range from OFA Certification, (this can't be official until after 24months of age.) too show and field titles, you receive full registration and can breed your pup. Good breeders are attempting to better the breed and are trying to protect what they may have developed. I'd say if the breeder isn't requiring a spay or neuter, then you will be able to breed after certain requirements are met. Read the contract carefully and ask a lot of questions of your breeder. Most of the misunderstandings I see (and I said most), are from an anxious buyer. You are spending a lot of money. Money, I assume you can afford, but don't throw it away not watching closely what you are doing. You have come to the right place for help, from that please listen closely to what is being said and you'll be just fine.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:09 pm

Good advice, pear. Like I said, without knowing what's in the whole contract anything we say is speculative.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:09 pm

A few questions.......

Why does he not want you to breed this pup?

Is it any pup that you pick, or a specfic pup? If it's a specific pup, what are the reasons?

A comment.......

With all of the great performance field GSP breeders out there, there really isn't any reason why you need to buy from a breeder with such restrictions.

My biggest concern is the overall quality of the pup; limited registrations, puppy contracts, etc - sounds eerily like a show breeder, or someone with more interest in protecting their name then in producing good pups.

JMO,
Dave

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:10 pm

I'm with all of the above on this.

If I were to have a pup/dog that I knew should not be bred for genetic reasons, I would sell the pup at a reduced price, limited registration and require a spay/neuter contract with proof of the alteration from a DVM.

On the other hand, if I were to sell a pup/dog that I wanted to "protect" the breeding on, I would either go limited or co-ownership with the condition to provide full breeding rights later once criteria were met and it would be VERY CLEARLY SPELLED OUT to protect both you and I.

.02 FWIW

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:12 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:A few questions.......

With all of the great performance field GSP breeders out there, there really isn't any reason why you need to buy from a breeder with such restrictions.

My biggest concern is the overall quality of the pup; limited registrations, puppy contracts, etc - sounds eerily like a show breeder, or someone with more interest in protecting their name then in producing good pups.

JMO,
Dave

I was thinking it, but didn't want to say it!

SharpMtn · Post by **SharpMtn** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:46 pm

My biggest concern is the overall quality of the pup; limited registrations, puppy contracts, etc - sounds eerily like a show breeder, or someone with more interest in protecting their name then in producing good pups.

Well, as one of those 'eerily' sounding breeders, I'll give you my side of it.

We do sell our 'companion' quality puppies on a spay/neuter contract and a limited registration. We do charge several hundred dollars less. Sometimes the difference between our competition (show, field, etc.) and the companion is something as minimal as a bite being slightly off.

Yes, we do care about protecting our name and our line that we have worked very hard to build. We try hard to not just breed for field or show but more of a dual quality dog. We take years selecting stud dogs and plenty of money running health tests, researching the backgrounds of the pedigrees, entering our dogs in these events, training, etc.

But the bottom line is....if you do not want to spay/neuter your puppy and/or a limited registration it is just as much your right to go find a breeder that will give you what YOU want as it is for the breeders to look for homes that meet their requirements. You have to be comfortable with each other and what you are getting.

Lara Spears

Post by **pear** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:51 pm

Well said Lara...Exactly what i was getting at above....."pear"

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:58 pm

thank you very much for your answers, they help a lot.

I will ask the breeder for specific reasons why breeding is not allowed. The truth is, breeding is allowed but the puppies are not allowed to be registered.

I, like you, think that its a lot of money for suck restrictions. I will ask a copy of the contract too and I will ask again what you think.

SharpMtn · Post by **SharpMtn** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:03 pm

I will ask the breeder for specific reasons why breeding is not allowed. The truth is, breeding is allowed but the puppies are not allowed to be registered.

That sure sounds like a limited registration and the idea of it is they are 'not' to be bred.
Here is a link to AKC's site discussing limited registrations:
http://www.akc.org/reg/limitedreg.cfm

Good luck with your puppy search:)

Lara

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:03 pm

GSPaddict wrote:The truth is, breeding is allowed but the puppies are not allowed to be registered.

That is, I'm pretty sure, what "limited registration" entails. A breeder can lift the limit at any point, so I'd ask, nicely, if there would be any conditions where you could get the limit lifted at some point. The breeder is likely doing this to ensure that a dog is breeding material and to prevent the creation of backyard breeders. Some people really don't trust their puppy buyers to make those types of decisions, sometimes with reason, sometimes without.

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:06 pm

In the meantime, here is the breeder's site.

www.bravepoint.ca

The lady is super friendly and very helpfull with all my questions, but she is still asking quite a bit more $ then the other breeders around here.

Im in Quebec, Canada where GSP breeders are quite rare, so it doesn't help.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:56 pm

What are your plans...
Just the first page sounds like they are conering the market with a complete wrong thing with her writing on the front page Pets first then show dogs second

then everything else down hill from there

I would seek another breeder BIG TIME anyone can have a website I would seek thsoe who are proving the breed in venues which these dogs were bred for Hunting with biddable dispostions
snips has some very good quality GSP's she not only runs NSTRA she even has ventured with some AKC titles to her dogs also...Brenda is one of the few that go above and beyond what most can do or are willing to do...
I know if I had the time and was able to get to trials and such closer i would try and do this also with my dogs..but here in the west I am happy to do the trialing I can.
But

there are other very good breeders also but Benda is a good friend and I have seen her and ricks GSP's and have run against them and she is one that I reccomend her breeding Highly
http://www.walnuthillgsps.us/

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2719
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2404
http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1906

maybe a little more wait but i think you'll be much happier

Post by **pear** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:23 pm

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess without seeing her contract that she is protecting what she has. I'd say after you meet certain requirements you can have full registration. I'm not sure how buying a dog from the USA works for you but good GSP breeders are not hard to find and I know that pedigrees can be equaled to what she is offering. Brenda Roe owns one of the dogs in the topside line. Her website is http://www.walnuthillgsps.us/ , and I know Brenda will treat you or any other customer right. Brenda and I have never discussed it but I expect she sells with limited reg. until some criteria is met. I personally view that as a plus. Brenda is not a "puppy mill" and is always striving to better the breed. I strongly recommend being very open minded and not getting caught up in tunnel vision. Another good kennel would be Cindy Stahl's http://www.honeyrunshorthairs.com/ ,she is top notch. Steve Ries at http://www.topgungsps.com/ sells with a limited reg. producing top notch shorthairs, and the list goes on... As I stated before I feel limited registration is a good thing. Simply read and understand the criteria laid out in each breeders contract. They not only protect the producing kennel, but you as the buyer. Many of the better kennels won't have a puppy on the ground for you, but you'll have to get on a waiting list. Don't view that as a bad thing. The best are normally sold out before a breeding even takes place. There are exceptions but I view a sold out breeder as a good breeder. Do your homework early, and then set back and wait....."pear"

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:23 pm

What are you planning on doing with the pup? Are you more interested in showing or hunting? Both or neither? Just curious as to your expectations.

Ross.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:41 pm

Yawallac wrote:What are you planning on doing with the pup? Are you more interested in showing or hunting?

or flyball?

Our dogs are pets first and foremost, and show dogs second. They are members of our family, sleeping on our sons’ beds, watching soccer games and curling up on the couch to watch TV. We compete in agility, flyball, conformation, field tests, NAVHDA events and obedience trials. Producing German Shorthaired Pointers of sound conformation and excellent temperament is our goal in breeding

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:53 pm

Look at the pedigree of Tera and the dog she's breeding to. A lot of the same stuff as Brenda a few generations back.

I believe that Brenda knows the sire and may have bred to him.

The bottom line is to talk to the breeder and get your concerns addressed.

As far as your male being breeding material, if the boy proves himself with performance and genetics, she might well convert the limited registration to a full.

So, do you plan to campaign the boy in tests, trials or the show ring?

Best,

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:15 pm

Well I received the contract and after reading the following paragraph I am satisfied.

Registration and pedigree: The seller will supply to the buyer within a reasonable
length of time and at the expense of the seller, a Certificate of Registration issued by the
Canadian Kennel Club, duly transferred to the new owner(s). All dogs are being sold
under a Non-Breeding contract. Should the buyer wish to breed the dog, the dog must
earn a title (championship, obedience, field, etc.) from the CKC, AKC, NAVHDA or
another internationally recognized kennel club and have his/her hips X-rayed after the age
of two years.The X-rays must be OFA or OVC-certified. The breeder must approve the
dog as breeding quality at some point prior to lifting the contract. When these
requirements have been fulfilled, the non-breeding contract may be cancelled at the
expense of the buyer. If a female, the seller has the right to second pick of a puppy in
the first litter, or the sale price for said puppy. The seller requests to be advised of
planned breedings. The buyer promises that no puppies will ever be sold to a pet store or
any other commercial establishment

I think it shows that the breeder is serious about their dogs and the improvement of the breed, and like Greg mentionned, the pedigree looks interesting where hunting is concerned.

I am mostly intersted in NAVHDA and obedience but I am not buying a puppy for breeding, but for hunting and companionship before anything else. At least now I know that I could work to have that option. Now, is a puppy worth 900$, I don't know... but its less of a concern now.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:40 pm

Don't know Gail personally at all, but she post on another forum I frequent and her post have always shown a strong air of professionalism and knowlege of the breed. What I understand of her dogs is that they are very good and that she really puts forth a best effort with them. After a glance through the pedigree and your contract, I'm going to go out on a VERY FAT limb and say your money is well spent and the contract is reasonable. I believe she fully has the breed at heart and wants to be sure that only the best are bred.

Just my .02,

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:59 pm

The way I read that is the seller gets a pup from the first litter. Thats a little much for the right to breed your dog that you paid a good price for. Buying a pup in my mind says its mine to do what I want with no strings attached.

Ezzy

Post by **pear** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:06 pm

With the exception of the right to a puppy, it's a pretty standard contract. I'd see if it's somewhat negotiable, on the puppy part. The price considering the exchange rate, is not really out of line for a well breed dog. I think I'd still check out all my options but I don't think this is to far out of line on price or contractual agreement...."pear"

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:25 pm

i have to agree that is a real stiff price for what she is offering..
I think it is comendable that she wants to be sure the pups are doing something before being bred...But heck don't we all..
If they want a non breeding clause then sell them for less...with all the extra wanting a puppy to boot after all the costs of attaining a title on a dog...

she can't go limited as that disqualifies from the show ring so that would knock a dual out of contention...

Plenty of quality breeders out there that do their home work and produce quality dogs...I tell those and even have a contract they asks the people to be responsible about what they do or don't do with the pups from me...

I would seek another breeder which there have been some very reputable ones that have already been posted

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:13 am

the non-breeding contract may be cancelled at the
expense of the buyer.

What does this mean in dollars?

If a female, the seller has the right to second pick of a puppy in the first litter, or the sale price for said puppy.

...and this is nice.

Pack sand!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:52 am

Sounds to me like a Pyramid scam with dogs! By the way how much is $900 (can)

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:14 am

TAK wrote:By the way how much is $900 (can)

GIBYA: http://www.xe.com/ucc/

Cheers,

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:06 am

Yawallac, I was wondering the same thing. I will have to ask, its far from clear.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:10 am

Well, I am not much on enslaving contracts on buying a puppy. I don`t want to be enslaved myself, so when I sell a up I don`t expect them to be. On the other hand, there are times I have wished we were more stringent on breeding practices when selling a pup, but where do you draw the line? We try to screen people pretty good, and we turn away many more than we sell to. So you always hope they use some sense when making decisions.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:13 am

GSPaddict

There are BETTER pups available for less money and restrictions. Perhaps the breeder's motives are ok, but their dogs simply aren't "all that".

Let's see, you spend the time, effort and money to put a title on your dog. NOW, this breeder is going to charge you again, on top of the money you already spent, to allow you to breed your dog. THEN, she wants one of your pups as well? I would NEVER agree to such a one-sided ridiculous contract.

Tell that breeder, "No thanks!"

GSPaddict, there are better options.

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:38 am

Yawallac, I am not too sure what to think. I went to see the breeder and her dogs. I really liked Terra's behavior around my kids even if the dog is not used to young children. I think there is some value in being able to see the dog and speak with the breeder. Where I live GSP's are hard to find and I am not too sure how to judge if the puppies will be worth it or not. I don't know pedigree's well enough. If I go see another breeder, how will I know his puppies might be a better choice?

It seems the male is quite good as he has been used by reputable breeders in the past. I tought this could be enough.

I asked the breeder to clarify the following two points to know what to expect on all points :

the non-breeding contract may be cancelled at the expense of the buyer.

If a female, the seller has the right to second pick of a puppy in the first litter, or the sale price for said puppy

I will let you know the answer... and by the way thank you so much for your opinion, I really appreciate it.

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:56 am

Let's see if I have this right......

1) You pay $900 canadian for a female pup.

2) You have to spend A BUNCH of money obtaining some type of title. Estimate about $900 canadian.

3) Then you have to pay to have the non-breeding registration lifted, don't know what it is in Canada, but AKC charges $25 or $35.

4) THEN, you have to give her 2nd pick pup from the first litter, which would come to approx $900 canadian.

Looks like you are looking at approx $2400 to over $2700 canadian by the time you actually own the pup outright.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:33 am

If I read the first post correctly, GSPAddict is in line for a male pup. If so, the clause about the 2nd pick of the first litter is moot.

Best,

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:12 am

I would want to know how many wild birds were shot over the bitch last season?

Even though I don't buy dogs for breeding purposes, I wouldn't touch a contract like this. The best puppy contracts are the ones that protect the buyer with a performance and health guarantee.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:06 pm

Yawallac wrote:
the non-breeding contract may be cancelled at the
expense of the buyer.
What does this mean in dollars?

I think this is refferring to the price for reversing a "limited registration." That should the buyer wish to reverse it and breed the dog, the breeder will allow it, but the buyer pays for the paperwork (kennel club) fees.

I would like to note that just becuase a contract states something does not mean that buyers will listen and head it. That's where co-ownership or limited registration comes into play. I have had the issue of a really nice looking puppy sold, on full registration, but my contract stated that the buyer was to **contact me for evaluation before any breeding plans were made**. They did not, bred the dog, and I found out later her bite (which was nice at 9 weeks) was off as an adult. Things can change as the dogs grows, and now I really wish that dog had been sold on a tighter contract. They broke contract and bred the dog and it was NOT a breeding quality dog as an adult, though as a puppy she looked very nice. I had the whole litter evaluated by a knowlegable fellow GSP person, and she was one of our top picks.

On the other hand, I agree with Brenda and others of you, that I don't like really restrictive contracts myself, and when you buy a dog it should be your dog. I felt the contract was a nice way to allow full ownership and rights should the dog grow into what I hoped, but now I am re-writing my contract and should we have any litters in the future it will be a more retsrictive situation.

Laurie

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:30 pm

GSPaddict wrote:Im in Quebec, Canada where GSP breeders are quite rare, so it doesn't help.

Quebec the city or Quebec the province? There must be GSP breeders in Northern New York and New England.

Also, it's not clear from your posts...do you hunt? Do you plan to hunt with this pup? While Terra seems to have done nicely in testing thus far, this breeder clearly has her focus elsewhere. By comparison check out Cindy's (honeyrun) and Brenda's (snips) websites. Right away there is a focus on hunting (without sacrificing conformation).

Admittedly there's a big difference between "talking the talk" and "walking the walk", there's only one conclusion to be drawn when someone doesn't even bother to "talk the talk".

If you're not into hunting, well, that's all moot anyway.

kandrgundog · Post by **kandrgundog** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:56 pm

$900 is a lot of money for limited registration.

I am one of the fortunate ones who got a puppy from Rick and Brenda's kennel. She is 2 years old and I have never had one regret. They know what they are doing.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:57 pm

honeyrun wrote:2) You have to spend A BUNCH of money obtaining some type of title. Estimate about $900 canadian.

And this would be extremely underestimated....entries gas hotels much less the training to get the dog to the point of winning trials I don't think 900.00 even comes close to what it takes to get that title
unless it is just a show title then 900.00 would be about right

great points honeyrun

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:26 pm

One of my weaknesses in discussing this stuff is I tend to expect that everyone would be treated the way I expect to be treated. This is flawed thinking, because we each have different levels of experience and "breed equity" for lack of a better term. Breeders have to take all of this into account, particularly when they get a prospective buyer that they've never dealt with before.

I thought long and hard last night about this topic, and about the need for breeders to screen buyers.

Here was the quote from the contract:

Registration and pedigree: The seller will supply to the buyer within a reasonable length of time and at the expense of the seller, a Certificate of Registration issued by the Canadian Kennel Club, duly transferred to the new owner(s). All dogs are being sold
under a Non-Breeding contract. Should the buyer wish to breed the dog, the dog must earn a title (championship, obedience, field, etc.) from the CKC, AKC, NAVHDA or another internationally recognized kennel club and have his/her hips X-rayed after the age of two years. The X-rays must be OFA or OVC-certified.

The breeder must approve the dog as breeding quality at some point prior to lifting the contract. When these requirements have been fulfilled, the non-breeding contract may be cancelled at the expense of the buyer. If a female, the seller has the right to second pick of a puppy in the first litter, or the sale price for said puppy. The seller requests to be advised of planned breedings. The buyer promises that no puppies will ever be sold to a pet store or any other commercial establishment

A few additional comments now that I've seen the contract language, and in response to some of the other comments on this thread:

$900 CAD is roughly $780 US; that's on the high side of average for performance-bred GSP litters coming out of the NE or upper Great Lakes, not that this is a true performance dog breeding either. Depending on supply and demand, it may not be as far out of line as many think.

Regarding the contract......

If a breeder wants to set the stipulation that the dog can't be bred until it has some sort of title, I can accept that, although it’s often based on flawed logic. If a hobby breeder (which I assume this breeder is) wants to use that as a way to screen prospective buyers, so be it - I can't disagree with that. Same with the hips.

It's the rest of the contract that really concerns me. The whole "The breeder must approve the dog as breeding quality" worries me. If the dog isn't built like a show dog is "supposed to be" built like, does that not make it "breeding quality"? A slight butt bite? "Unattractive" coloration? "Breeding quality" is a pretty vague term.

The whole "I get a pup if you breed the dog" is unacceptable to me, at least for pups being offered to the hunting dog public. I wouldn’t recommend a friend looking for a hunting dog buy a pup from a litter under such restrictions, because of what it infers about the breeder and their intentions. This idea that the breeder has any role in the development and reproduction of the pup is extremely pretentious for 99% of the breeders out there, IMO. Especially for a hobby breeder.

The "no commercial establishment" rules out selling a pup to Brenda, or any of the dozens of excellent breeders we have out there that run hunt clubs or wild bird guiding operations.

While I could live with some of the stipulations (as least for pups being sold to the general hunting dog public) much of this contract has the overbearing, show-dog breeder feel to it. We have GSP breeders who have "theme litters" - i.e. the theme of a litter is "Broadway shows" so every pup in the litter must have a registered name that mentions a Broadway show. Bletch!

The same with litters that have 3 or 4 names as the "breeders", so everyone can get some advertising if the dog makes it big. One good rule of thumb is any litter where there is a list of "breeders" for the litter, or anyone wants to talk about "co-owning" you may want to start walking the other way. These terms are not consistent with the overwhelming majority of field-bred litters.

JMO,
Dave

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:32 pm

Quebec the city or Quebec the province?

Province.

Also, it's not clear from your posts...do you hunt?

Yes! its definitly part of the plan.

Well, I think all your arguments make a lot of sense and got me convinced. I realize more and more that choosing the best puppy is in fact important. And I know for a fact that the breeder don't hunt. Trialing is nice, but not enough.

I found some interesting alternatives
http://www.braque-allemand.com

and also a fellow board member here who seems to offer a very nice breed

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... highlight=

Thank you all so much for your input, if it wasn't for you I might have made an expensive mistake. Feel free to continue posting your ideas, I still have much to learn.

Pierre

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Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:11 am

Pierre,

My opinion, take it FWIW, is that if you're going to hunt, get a dog from someone that hunts.

Talk to the members here and get a feel for the situation. There are some very knowledgeable shorthair folks here.

If you're not fixed on a shorthair, there are other good solutions out there for you. Janet, e.g., has nice wirehairs. Here is a link to a post about some nice GWPs http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2744 .

Best regards,

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:39 am

My last post on this matter will be to say that I am sorry. I had news that I offended the breeder, and for that, I am very truly sorry. I still think It was my right to inform myself in order to make a good decision. But again, It was NEVER my intent to offend you. The contract was just not what I was looking for but it has nothing to do with all the rest.

Post by **pear** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:05 am

GSPaddict I too am truly sorry if this or any other breeder is offended by your inquiry. However it is your right to truly understand, a contract you are entering into. ..."pear"

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:47 am

It's a shame that the breeder is offended that you are researching what fits you best. Personally, I'd prefer a buyer that is asking questions and making sure their purchase is a "best fit". Should a buyer be offended because I am asking questions as the breeder to make sure that they are a "best fit"! It's your right to ask questions and I don't think you have anything to apologize for! You should be asking questions!

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:53 am

So, are we to assume the breeder participates or at least reads this board? Otherwise, how would the breeder know what all has been said? Maybe I am just lost.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:00 am

The breeder must approve the dog as breeding quality at some point prior to lifting the contract. When these requirements have been fulfilled, the non-breeding contract may be cancelled at the expense of the buyer. If a female, the seller has the right to second pick of a puppy in the first litter, or the sale price for said puppy. The seller requests to be advised of planned breedings. The buyer promises that no puppies will ever be sold to a pet store or any other commercial establishment

I agree with David's comments. This part of the contract bothers me. Even after the new owner goes to all the cost and expense of putting a title on the dog, there is nothing that says the breeder ever has to "approve the dog as breeding quality. "

Also, the second sentence puzzles me. What does it mean? What it appears to say to me is that the breeder, who already has gotten $900 CD for the pup, also gets either a free pup, or gets paid the price of a pup out of first litter. I would just say no to this. I can see letting the breeder have second pick if the breeder will pay for the pup, but if they want the pup free, forget it. In order to do the breeding, the new owner will already have around $1200 invested (USD) for vet fees and the stud fee to produce the litter. Tack on a free pup, and the cost of breeding the first little is going to be better than $2,000.

jobird · Post by **jobird** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:40 pm

Ok,
I can see how the breeder would be offended. Her dogs have been slagged for not being "true hunters", activities that she enjoys doing with her dogs such as flyball are made to seem silly and she is being portrayed as, sin of sins, breeding "show dogs". Instead of discussing the contract with her and his concerns with her, Pierre chose to question her and her dogs and her contract in a very public forum and invite comment from strangers who don't know him, her, or the dogs. Having her website and her dogs slagged at this site, may potentially impact her future as a breeding kennel and if she isn't a member of this site, she has no recourse to defend herself or her program. I'm not saying that I agree with her contract, but maybe that she hasn't been treated fairly throughout this thread.

Janna

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:10 pm

I think the point was that if he was going to pay $900 and he was going to hunt the dog, he needed to be sure it was coming from hunting stock. The same could be said if the dog was $400. It's still a lot of money and if the guy wants to hunt the dog, he needs to buy from a breeder that hunts his or her breeding stock. I don't think anyone is saying the breeder produces bad dogs, but they are saying for that amount of money, the guy could find plenty of dogs that come from hunting stock. This breeder may produce some of the finest AKC standard dogs on the planet, and if that is what a person is looking for, $900 may be a small price to pay. This is a gun dog forum, therefore most everyone on here will want hunting dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:42 pm

You will learn when someone is offended it is their problem and not yours. If what you said or did was truely offensive then we all would all be offended. And that doesn't happen.

There was nothing done or said on this post that was offensive but almost to the opposite extreme of everything being sugar coated. The breeder wasn't even identified. Maybe that is what was offensive. If I beed show dogs and someone makes a point of that I would be impressed. However if I really have questions in my own mine if I am doing things right then I hate it when someone picks up on what I am thinking but trying to hide.

When I hear someone say they are offended by something said I just feel sorry for the person for having a problem like that. The offence always takes place in your reception of a statement and not with the person making the statement. Feel sorry for them and move on since if it wasn't you it would be someone else offeding them.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:33 pm

Discussing with no names, kennel or owner, mentioned is OK by my book, but I do think it extremely rude otherwise.

Say someone has a problem with a dog (or whatever) they have purchased from breeders who write here, how would you feel to have it publicly discussed over an internet chat list? Not happy I bet, not happy at all. You would ask immediately to take it off line so you could sort it out in private.

I can see every reason for the breeder concerned to feel offended, poor woman.