NEED HELP!!!

APATZ_GSP · Post by **APATZ_GSP** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:36 pm

My gsp is about 7 months and up until now i could reach in his bowl while he was eating andso could my 3 year old never had a problem until tonight. I got him a big bone like he gets about once a week and my daughter was walking by him and he nipped her in the hand she wasnt even grabing him or anything. So when that happened i was like wow and then i try to grab it and take it away and he went after me so i grabed him and held him there until he calmed down. I took the bone and gave it back later after he forgot about it and he is still doing the same thing. So i need help on how to fix this before it gets out of hand or he bites my daughter. please help thanks in advance i would hate to get rid of him without know what he could of been.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:14 pm

You just gave an adolescent dog a really high value treat and wonder why he's guarding it? Get rid of the bone. No more bones. Start working on resource guarding or you can only expect it to get more intense as he gets older. I have some nasty resource guarders, but they do not guard from me. My worst case is the Aussie that guards water bowls. I didn't understand why everyone rushed for a drink when I arrived home until I caught her guarding the bowl.

The usual first step to desensitize a resource guarder is to take his food away while he is eating, make him wait, then return it with an added treat, like a spoonful of canned meat food. This may require hand feeding for a while. Keep the kid away from the dog. If you want to reintroduce things like bones later, it should be done with the dog being allowed to chew only when you are holding the bone. Use the give command or the leave it command and remove the chew from his possession frequently, only giving him access when he waits.

You are dealing with a high drive breed and you will not be able to supress all his natural instincts. Positive reinforcement obedience work and a NILIF routine will help get him on a more even track, but I would never, ever, let him and your child interact.

APATZ_GSP · Post by **APATZ_GSP** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:18 pm

thanks for the info i will be keeping my daughter away from him for a while. the biggest thing was it caught me off guard 7 months and no problem.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:26 pm

Yep that is Corporal punishment time right there..
I would do everything to let that young dog know that it doesn't matter who is going for the food or bone he is the subordinate period. Growling sneering or any aggressive possessive behavior will not be tolerated.

This is one of those where The Dog Whisperer deals with in many of his shows and would suggest that you watch that if you can on the National Geographic channel

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:44 pm

NOW is the time this dog needs to learn a lesson. He does not, will not, will NEVER question a human taking food from him.

helpful_cub · Post by **helpful_cub** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:07 am

I had the same thing happen with my dog. He didn't actually bite me but his teeth came darn close and I wasn't even near the bone. I've basically resolved to never give him a real bone like that again. He behaves perfectly fine with a pig-ear or raw-hide bone and doesn't get snappy. I think part of it is that when he's chewing on it he forgets everything and just fixates on the bone. I kind of figured that out because he immediately wet himself after realizing he just snapped at me, the oh'no moment.

To help ease this issue some I make do sit and stay while I fill his dog bowl and waits until I command. He also always eats after I eat now and not before. He'll drools like crazy but he's respectful of the hand that feeds him and he seems to be a lot better now.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:13 am

helpful_cub wrote:I had the same thing happen with my dog. He didn't actually bite me but his teeth came darn close and I wasn't even near the bone. I've basically resolved to never give him a real bone like that again. He behaves perfectly fine with a pig-ear or raw-hide bone and doesn't get snappy. I think part of it is that when he's chewing on it he forgets everything and just fixates on the bone. I kind of figured that out because he immediately wet himself after realizing he just snapped at me, the oh'no moment.

To help ease this issue some I make do sit and stay while I fill his dog bowl and waits until I command. He also always eats after I eat now and not before. He'll drools like crazy but he's respectful of the hand that feeds him and he seems to be a lot better now.

I prefer not to teach my pointing dogs sit. and I do not care what I place in front of my dogs...I give and I can take away and my dogs will understand as I will not tolerate the behavior nor will I avoid something because they try and get away with it. The dog needs to know that it is a subordinate low dog on the totem pole as if you bite me in aggression and do not respect your place you have no place in my kennels or home.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:16 am

This story and the punishment responses to it are something I hear every day from rescue turn ins. Rough punishment will not work. It will make the guarding behavior worse. The dog is guarding something he did not earn. Take away the resource and take away his reason to exhibit aggression. Choose a behavior modification program, like Ian Dunbar, Wendy Volhard, or Joel Silverman's color system, and stick with it for everything. Consider honestly what you are dealing with. A maturing male of a breed with high drive that can be defensively sharp. Honestly, solid liver males have a rep for being a little stubborn and sometimes a little pushy. Sometimes a lot pushy, actually.

You've let him get away from you behavior-wise because of familiarity. He has slowly developed undesireable habits a bit at a time because you have failed to adjust your perception of him from gangly puppy to young adult who is testing all boundaries.

One of the reasons dogs like this often thrive and abandon their behavior in rescue is because they are in structured environments due to the time and space constraints of foster care. I have a sixteen month old who is a real handful over food, possessions and space, and he has improved dramatically while with a trainer over the past few weeks. He has given up rushing the run partition to bully his kennel neighbor at meal time and doesn't dive into his bowl like it is in danger of disappearing. The routine gives him security.

Look at it this way - you could not tolerate this behavior from, say, half a dozen dogs. You would have bloody bedlam. Treat him like you want him to act and put him in a position to succeed.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:21 am

kninebirddog wrote: I prefer not to teach my pointing dogs sit. and I do not care what I place in front of my dogs...I give and I can take away and my dogs will understand as I will not tolerate the behavior nor will I avoid something because they try and get away with it. The dog needs to know that it is a subordinate low dog on the totem pole as if you bite me in aggression and do not respect your place you have no place in my kennels or home.

I go one further than that - they will not growl/react to another dog in their feed bowl and will not try to take food from another dogs feed bowl. I feed a dozen dogs in the yard at once if I feel like it. They each will eat the food they are told to eat and will not move in on the slower dogs to help them finish as long as I am there. Additionally they all learn to "take it nice" such that anyone giving the dog any type of treat, even raw liver chunks, will never need to worry that they may injured in the process.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:57 am

Its best to start with this kind of conditioning when a pup is 10-12 weeks old. We use feeding time to practice all kinds of beginning behavior modification. You can "Whoa" a dog before the feed bowl (DON'T use the command, just set the pup back), then give the pup a release command to eat...move the food...remove and put back....scrape more food in the bowl...etc. When you start at this age, you rarely see a problem and it conditions further responses. Only take a few minutes...

bowhunter1221975 · Post by **bowhunter1221975** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:14 am

you need to put that pup in place wright there wright then with as much force as it takes to make it understood this will not be accepted @ any time or any place you have to be in charge

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:21 am

Google "NILIF" and "resource guarding". The dog is acting normal for a dog, but you do not want the behavior to continue. NILIF stands for Nothing in Life is Free. The dog needs to earn everything he gets - and he needs to understand that humans are his superior, even small humans. Google "resource guarding" and take a look at what the experts say. I would be hesitant to treat the dog solely with aggression and "showing him who is boss" because unless your daughter can do the same thing, you're not going to help the situation. Google it and you'll see some good advice from some dog behaviorists.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:57 am

RoostersMom wrote:Google "NILIF" and "resource guarding". The dog is acting normal for a dog, but you do not want the behavior to continue. NILIF stands for Nothing in Life is Free. The dog needs to earn everything he gets - and he needs to understand that humans are his superior, even small humans. Google "resource guarding" and take a look at what the experts say. I would be hesitant to treat the dog solely with aggression and "showing him who is boss" because unless your daughter can do the same thing, you're not going to help the situation. Google it and you'll see some good advice from some dog behaviorists.

Withholding the "resource" is a key component of the training all right, but if you do not use correction you will be nagging the dog long term and you will never be sure if the behavior is "cured".
Reward the dog with the food/treat for doing it right, correct him in no uncertain terms for doing it wrong (so he will NOT want to get it wrong again).

As was mentioned, this behavior did not come all of a sudden and should have been corrected/modelled from 10 weeks on, but now you are behind the game and the onus is on you to up the ante to match the problem and be sure it is corrected timely and thoroughly.

aeast8 · Post by **aeast8** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:31 pm

I had the same problem with my gsp when he was about 5 mo. old. That was about 3 mo. ago. I sounded just like you; I didn't want to get rid of him but I won't have a dog that bites or one that is aggressive. The problem is simple. He want's to be or already thinks he is the alpha. But he is not you are. He isn't even the Beta. Your wife may be or your daughter. He is the last in line, he is at the bottom. This doesn't mean you love him any less but he needs to know his place. This is very common. All I did was wip him good and put him outside. When he came back inside I gave him a bone. I didn't give him his bone because the bone is yours not his. Then I took my bone and gave it back to him and repeated that a few times. Over the next few days I would take the bone and give it back to him. Problem solved. He growled only one more time when I tried to take him off the bed that he is not supposed to be on. I wipped him and put him outside. He is now 8 mo. and has not done it since. He knows now that I am the alpha. Like I said earlier this is natural and easy to fix if you let him know your are the alpha.
Don't get me wrong I am not a animal abuser. My wife would probably tell you that I love my dog more than her. But you have to give your dog positive and negative reinforcement. We do the same thing to are kids. If my kids do something wrong and its wrong enough to deserve a spanking they get it. But then later I explain to them why it was wrong and I tell them I love them.

APATZ_GSP · Post by **APATZ_GSP** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:27 am

Thanks for all the info everyone. I have been working on the things you all told me and he seems to be alright after that first night he hasnt done it again so i will see what happens next.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:16 am

I just want to commend you for taking it seriously. Often people skirt these issues rather than dealing with them. If you can deal with it right away when the behavior is just starting you can usually get the point across without too much trouble. But if you let it get bad before you try to do something it will be very hard to fix later. So kudos to you for being attentive and addressing it immediatly. You know he is maturing and testing his place, but it always our place to make the rules and manners of living with humans are clear cut.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:53 am

mountaindogs wrote:I just want to commend you for taking it seriously. Often people skirt these issues rather than dealing with them. If you can deal with it right away when the behavior is just starting you can usually get the point across without too much trouble. But if you let it get bad before you try to do something it will be very hard to fix later. So kudos to you for being attentive and addressing it immediatly. You know he is maturing and testing his place, but it always our place to make the rules and manners of living with humans are clear cut.

Ditto

I cringe when people say "Oh he is just a pup and will grow out of it" as Pups and Dog do not grow out of things they grow into them and what you allow them to do they learn they can do.

One of our clients came to me literally yesterday as his young lab little over a year old isn't growing out of those bad behaviors and jumped up on his 5 year old granddaughter and broke her arm . She still got to come out to the preserve with her pretty pink cast and wow is that casting material bright. Anyways sorry to side track but this is the stuff I get to see quite a bit of every year dogs with poor manners and owners that allow it to continue and then watch them be completely frustrated when the dog which has no respect for them blows them off

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:43 pm

I read in a book today, written by an experienced trainer, that most people are not educated enough about dogs and their behavior to own one. Interesting statement.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:34 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I read in a book today, written by an experienced trainer, that most people are not educated enough about dogs and their behavior to own one. Interesting statement.

Same can be said about some people and children..but that is another topic LMAO

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:16 am

kninebirddog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I read in a book today, written by an experienced trainer, that most people are not educated enough about dogs and their behavior to own one. Interesting statement.
Same can be said about some people and children..but that is another topic LMAO

HA! Too true!

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:54 am

About 2 weeks ago it was -30 degrees here so I had all the dogs in and my 10 year old setter that I raised from a 6 week old pup was lying on the couch when my 2 year old went up and began rubbing her belly when she bit him and left a large cut over his eye on the bridge of his eyebrow and scratched under his eye and on his cheek. The dog was not sleeping and was not hurt, she just took advantage of the fact that I was not in the room and my wife was in the kitchen cooking. If not for my wife I was going to take her out in the country and shoot her in the head. A dog who is aggressive with children absolutely needs rough capital punishment and to learn that this will not be tolerated. You can read all the books you want and watch Caesar Milan the Dog Whisperer but in a wolf pack if there is a young adolescent wolf who is aggressive toward pups that young adolescent wolf is usually grabbed by the throat by the Alpha female or sometimes the Alpha male and taught a lesson. Much of what a dog does relates back to it's primal side so it must be dealt with that way and as the leader of your household it is your job to make sure the young dog knows this will not be tolerated especially with children. That setter is now living with my parents who are retirement age and do not have children at their house. If they want to see my kids they come to my house. The only reason my setter did not contract "lead poisoning" is because my wife begged and pleaded for me to spare her life and send her to live with my folks. My wife actually asked me to allow the dog to continue to live with us and I would not have it. If I cannot trust my dogs around my children they are not welcome in my house. Now some of you may consider this harsh but I had that setter longer than I have been married or had children so it was hard for me to get rid of her. Sometimes, though, there are lines that get crossed that should never be crossed. My pointers have never, ever made an aggressive move toward either of my children and they get wrestled with and kissed in the face and all sorts of stuff. Child aggression, no matter what type, but especially food aggression should be dealt with immediately and harshly. I guess I am a bit old school though.

JMO

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:18 am

wow,

That's horrible about your son. I hope he's o.k. I agree with you totally - no aggression towards children should be tolerated. IMO, your case is a lot different than a young pup who hasn't learned the rules yet. I sure hope you ruled out any health issues with your dog - a lot of times there are thyroid issues that can cause erratic behavior in a dog - as well as other health issues. Sometimes in aging dogs, it's a health issue more than a behavioral issue. Good for you for separating the dog from the kids.

APATZ_GSP · Post by **APATZ_GSP** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:26 pm

Well heres a quick update. I have been working with the dog since i started this post and he seems to be improving a ton but i still want to make sure hes done so i will continue to work with him. And then the first or second weekend of march he is going for his first training session with at pro trainer (that works with gsp's alot) for 2 weeks so i will let you know how that goes and maybe get some pics up. Thanks again for all the help.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:40 pm

You will never be able to call him done with respect to pushing limits, I would bet. Dogs with strong personalities often do not generalize well and require constant tuneups.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:13 pm

APATZ_GSP,

Here is a site to read 2 helpful articles. I would print them out and read several times. Same with all the family members. Excellent info.

Who's In Charge Here? - A lesson in becoming ALPHA.
http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm

Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF)
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

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