Westminster - Sporting Group

[mcbosco]

Just a reminder, it is on at 8 pm tonight.

[ElhewPointer]

I hope the English Pointer doesn't win! I don't want people to buy them, and screw them up. Winners usually become a fad for a year.

[mcbosco]

I hope the English Pointer doesn't win! I don't want people to buy them, and screw them up. Winners usually become a fad for a year.

The only dog in the group that gets me angry is the Gordon Setter. I went to the show two years ago since it is only 6 blocks from my office and it was shocking to see what they did to that noble breed.

The judge is Marjorie Martorella she is an English Pointer breeder in NJ.

[Hondo]

I hope the English Pointer doesn't win! I don't want people to buy them, and screw them up. Winners usually become a fad for a year.

The only dog in the group that gets me angry is the Gordon Setter. I went to the show two years ago since it is only 6 blocks from my office and it was shocking to see what they did to that noble breed.

The judge is Marjorie Martorella she is an English Pointer breeder in NJ.

I like the setters but I'm not very knowledgeable on them. What is it that they have done to the Gordon? What are some good Gordon breeders?

Thanks,

Hondo

[Cajun Casey]

Haven't seen too many AKC pointers, have we?

[r nickell]

Figure the Griffs are safe unless they change the date of the show to Oct. 31st. :roll:

[ElhewPointer]

If you'd stick one of those AKC show pointers in the field, it'd have a heart attack! Wouldn't have a clue what to do. A totally different animal. Hunting pointers are American Pointers, show pointers are English Pointers.

[Georgia Boy]

Who won?

[Cajun Casey]

Group judging is tonight. Then best in show at the end. With the red Aussie, Reckon, dumped in breed, that should leave the Pekingese, Malachy, for the favorite to win.

I think it is funny that Westminster gets more attention here than the National Championship in Tennessee.

[GUNDOGS]

Thanks for the reminder ..hope i can get off here long enough to watch it ....ruth

[Gordon Guy]

Hondo wrote:

I like the setters but I'm not very knowledgeable on them. What is it that they have done to the Gordon?

Back in the 60's or 70's (Not too sure, I'm hoping Wyndancer shows up to correct me if I'm wrong and or add his $0.02) the show side had great influence in the breed standard, most likely because the field guys and gals were out hunting or gave up on the breed for something "Better". (As a side note: Many folks blame the show people for this change, I blame the hunting crowd for dropping the ball.) The breed standard changed increasing the weight range... among other things. As I'm told and as I believe this change led to a standard that doesn't meet the needs of many of the American sportsman. Sure there are many Gordons that meet the AKC standards that do a creditable job in the woods of the east coast, the east coast was the Gordons strong hold for a long time. A Gordon was the first winner of the National AF Championship in... I believe 1874??? These dogs were considered slower more methodical hunters when compared to E. Pointers and E. Setters. However, Americans seem to change the breeds according to our needs and desires. The Gordon is a hunting dog, form should follow function. In my opinion AKC Field Trials and the Gordon owners that like to play at those games are the reason there is a split in the breed. This is a good thing. Without the demands required by field trials the Gordon would exist mostly as what you see in the show ring. There are approximately 50 +/- dual Gordons that have both AKC Show titles and Field Champion titles. But sadly they generally do not compete well in all breed trials (Even at the AKC Gordon Setter National Championship's Dual titled dogs rarely place). Generally these AKC standard dogs (Males) weigh in from 60 to 85 lb dogs that range fairly close and would be consider methodical hunters by most dog men. Not what I consider even adequate for my desires when it comes to hunting birds in the plain states and westward. I hunt Chukar, Huns, Sharptails, Grouse, Quail, etc.... I like a dog that has fire and runs 3 or 400 yards when the cover dictates. I breed Gordons that would not be competitive in the show ring and don't really want to because it would lead me to a style of dog that does not appeal to me or many like me. I like the way Gordons are, looks and personnality, so don't tell me that another breed maybe better suited for my hunting style. I've had most of them all and settled on Gordon's and I haven't had foot prints on the ceilings since.

As for breeders. There are a few breeders that focus on field and field trial Gordons. You have to do your homework if you want to fiind a "Good" breeder. And it depends on what do you mean by "Good"?

I'll probably be in hot water with a few Gordon owners for some of the things I've said but this is my opinion and I've been in the breed for 23 years as a bird hunter, breeder and an occasional "also ran" at AKC Field trials, Hunt tests, NSTRA events and 1 NAVHDA event. That's not the whole truth I guess I have received a few blue ribbons. At a setter trial in California three of my pups took first, second and third in the same derby event.

[mcbosco]

Oh, if you remember a few months back I posted a young Spinone bitch leaping off a dock in Maine.

She won breed today.

[fuzznut]

Re: AKC pointers- many years ago I helped a friend with her AKC pointers to get them in the field and see what they could do. The first we worked was a bitch that (at that time) was the winningest pointer bitch in the history of the breed. And she won the group at Westminster! I tell you, this was a 9 yr old dog that had never seen a bird in her life, and the first time she was on quail, she pointed them. Now her style wasn't going to win any trials, and she didn't cover the ground like any trial dog, but she hunted the cover and would have made a serviceable foot dog for someone. We put a JH on her in 4 straight. I know, I know a JH ain't nothing...but I was surprised that the instinct was there at all.

There are more then a few AKC pointer folks out there who are running dogs and doing a decent job. Not enough of them for sure, and they aren't the same calibre at the AF dogs by any means....but not all of them are empty headed lugs.

Sporting group winners- Black cocker, Irish Setter, Irish Water Spaniel, Griffon
Fuzz

[northern cajun]

Oh, if you remember a few months back I posted a young Spinone bitch leaping off a dock in Maine.

She won breed today.

You sure that wasnt a wirehair/griffon mix :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Cajun Casey]

Scottish deerhound is BIS.

[snips]

I loved the Griff!!! Real nice dog!!!

[KwikIrish]

Re: AKC pointers- many years ago I helped a friend with her AKC pointers to get them in the field and see what they could do. The first we worked was a bitch that (at that time) was the winningest pointer bitch in the history of the breed. And she won the group at Westminster! I tell you, this was a 9 yr old dog that had never seen a bird in her life, and the first time she was on quail, she pointed them. Now her style wasn't going to win any trials, and she didn't cover the ground like any trial dog, but she hunted the cover and would have made a serviceable foot dog for someone. We put a JH on her in 4 straight. I know, I know a JH ain't nothing...but I was surprised that the instinct was there at all.
Fuzz

That's a pretty neat story, Fuzz. It's enjoable to see the bench dogs get their turn in the field. Seeing a little more of this in my breed in the past couple years, and really excited to come home and get my hands wet. There were a couple Dual dogs competing yesterday that I would have been great to see in the group ring. Luckily, there is always next year.

[KwikIrish]

OH, and Congrats to JENNA and her team. Her boss man, Eddie Boyse took BOB with the lovely SFT, "Adam" and then they went on to win the group. The team must be on cloud 9!! http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/20 ... 35203.html

[Neil]

If you'd stick one of those AKC show pointers in the field, it'd have a heart attack! Wouldn't have a clue what to do. A totally different animal. Hunting pointers are American Pointers, show pointers are English Pointers.

That is a myth, the winner of the AKC Pointer National was judged by a friend of mine, he won both the Open and Amateur and is now in Shawn Kinklaar's string and showing some promise on the major Shooting Dog circuit. I don't know his breeding, but I doubt he has much show dog in his background, but he is AKC registered.

I suspect if shaved down the little cocker could be trained to hunt some.

And remember as some have said, it is the breed clubs not AKC that causes the split when there is one.

Neil

[Steve007]

[I like the setters but I'm not very knowledgeable on them. What is it that they have done to the Gordon? What are some good Gordon breeders?

Can't disagree that there is a breed split in Gordons, as in many other breeds. There are, however, plenty of top field Gordons around. Nevertheless, DC Sun-Yak Spellbound Heaven Scent took the breed at Westminster 2009, the first Dual CH to have done so in any breed..I think.

[ezzy333]

And remember most of the show type dogs of practically every breed will still hunt. The split is that they won't or can't run like the trial dogs have been bred to do. But for someone wanting a slower closer working dog they may be just what you are looking for. Just make sure you check themand the parents out to insure they still have it and can perform in the manner you like.

Ezzy

[fishvik]

I saw that this was the first year for the Boykin at Westminster. I sure hope the breeders keep this dog true to it's heritage. This breed in my opinion has the potential to become the next cute little lap dog yapper breed if the hunting breeders don't keep on top of the situation. They sure are great little dogs and I'd hate to see them go the way of the American cocker and some of the show lines of springers. It is my understanding that the breed club will not let these dogs be bred unless they are hunters at this time, I hope that keep it that way.

[bigoak]

There wasn't a dog in that sporting that could find a porkchop in a paper bag!

[Dave Quindt]

There wasn't a dog in that sporting that could find a porkchop in a paper bag!

Given the extra weight the Lab was carrying around with him, I'd argue that point......

[jlp8cornell]

Given the extra weight the Lab was carrying around with him, I'd argue that point

All the show Labs are like that. They look like Angus beef cows. I saw one at a fall show here that could not trot around the ring. Of course it won Best Veteran. Sad...

Here's a pic of the BOB lab:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011 ... l?hp#/0_73

You can scroll through and see a pic of all the BOB winners....

[Dave Quindt]

If you'd stick one of those AKC show pointers in the field, it'd have a heart attack! Wouldn't have a clue what to do.

I'm by no means an expert on AKC-bred Pointers, but I've had a chance to see a few of them in the field. Could they run AF horseback stakes? Nope. Was there enough birddog in there to take them hunting and kill wild birds over them? At least for the few I saw the answer was yes. They had good noses, they hunted and they pointed.

Maybe the few I saw were anomalies, but they certainly had enough natural ability to be serviceable birddogs.

Can't disagree that there is a breed split in Gordons, as in many other breeds. There are, however, plenty of top field Gordons around.

Plenty? There are certainly some nice field Gordons being bred. But the breed as a whole only registers about 750 pups a year; "plenty" is relative.

And remember as some have said, it is the breed clubs not AKC that causes the split when there is one.

Neil
Your absolutely correct, and let's not stop there. The split in the breed clubs was most often due to field folks not willing/interested in staying involved with club management & politics; your own breed being an obvious exception. Sporting breed pups originally ended up in the hands of show breeders because field breeders sold those pups to them; and in some many decided they could make more money selling to show/pet folks than to hunters.

We sporting dog owners love to rant about the "blue-haired ladies that run the shows" or the "evil AKC" or anyone else they can blame, regardless of where true responsibility lies. We certainly are not going to blame us for our mistakes, even when the responsibility lies with us

The hunting/sporting dog press loves to use the example of the Irish Setter as a breed “ruined” by the show folks following the spike in interest in the breed in the ‘60s. The problem, as you know but others conveniently ignore, is that the history doesn’t back that up. The IS was in trouble in the ‘20s and ‘30s, not because of show/pet breeders (who had always been there) but in great deal because field breeders had abandoned the breed, most often for English Setters. The IS was always in a tenuous position because of a limited gene pool once it was separated as a distinct breed. That’s what got Ned LeGrande and others started in the ‘40s and what drove the need for the English Setter crosses.

But it’s easier to blame the “show folks” than to look at the facts and to assign responsibility as appropriate. We sportsmen like to rail on the anti’s and gun control folks when they play “loose and fast” with the facts, yet we use that same technique to sidestep our own mistakes.

I’m not here to defend dog shows or claim the AKC is a perfect entity, because it certainly isn’t. At the same time, some of the messes within these breeds lie at the feet of sportsmen.

Purebred dog breeding is under attack, breeding by amateurs is under attack and the use of live game for dog training/testing is under attack. Like it or not the AKC is by far the largest dog entity working to fight these attacks; far more than every other dog entity combined.

Sorry for rambling on,
Dave

[JKP]

Buy my hunting dog from a show breeder??? Don't think so.

If we're talking about a 10-12 year investment, I'm going to get my dog from a breeder that puts performance first...not pretty. I don't doubt that there are show dogs that hunt (not talking about the DC, MH, etc dogs) but the biggest thing I worry about with show dogs is temperament...have known far too many show dogs that didn't have the calm, focus and toughness to make good working dogs. Besides, can't get over the feeling that giving my money to a show kennel whether for a pup or a stud fee is supporting a system that really doesn't do much for working dogs. Don't need dog shows to tell you if a dog is well structured, can move properly, etc...all it does is become an end point for those that don't hunt.

I'll give my money to the breeder that hunts and breeds for it...

[Dave Quindt]

And remember most of the show type dogs of practically every breed will still hunt. The split is that they won't or can't run like the trial dogs have been bred to do. Ezzy

Ah, not so fast.....

The breeding of a short muzzle on the show-focused Lab has resulted in a dog that probably can't get his mouth open wide enough to pick up a Canada Goose; that's a prime example of a split that has nothing to do with field trials. The breeding of an over-soft coat in show-focused GWPs has resulted in dogs without the correct working coat needed to protect them in heavy cover; another example that has nothing to do with field trials.

The breeding of dogs with physical conformation that, while popular in the show ring, results in a dog less capable of a normal day's work as a sporting dog when compared to the breed as a whole has nothing to do with field trials.

The "split" occurs when a large % of a sporting breed is controlled by breeders who do not put the dog's working instincts as a primary factor in breeding decisions. The fact that "most of the show type dogs of practically every breed will still hunt" while probably a very favorable analysis misses the point. The problem is not that these dogs may "still hunt" it's that even if they do hunt, they are probably not exceptional hunting dogs, by any objective standard. We should be breeding dogs of exceptional hunting ability, or at least dogs with above-average hunting abilities; the presence of basic hunting abilities does not deem the dog of breedable quality.

The question is not "do they hunt"; the question is "do they hunt well enough that breeding them will result in an improved breed?" It's the breeding of those dogs generation upon generation that has resulted in segments of all breeds being incapable of being reasonable effective sporting dogs.

JMO,
Dave

[3Britts]

Boy, reading this makes me glad I have Brittanys, most DC in the group.

I did watch the Sporting Group and was amazed at the winner. I had to wonder if that Cocker had ever been hunting. My bet was, it hadn't.

Now, show people, don't hate me for saying this next bit. JMO is that no sporting dog should be shown if it has not proven itself in the field in some manner: Hunting legs, Trial entrance. something.

sporting dogs should do what they were bred to do. In the sporting dog group, that means hunt.

[shags]

Boy, reading this makes me glad I have Brittanys, most DC in the group.

I did watch the Sporting Group and was amazed at the winner. I had to wonder if that Cocker had ever been hunting. My bet was, it hadn't.


Now, show people, don't hate me for saying this next bit. JMO is that no sporting dog should be shown if it has not proven itself in the field in some manner: Hunting legs, Trial entrance. something.
sporting dogs should do what they were bred to do. In the sporting dog group, that means hunt.

I'll go you one better - every breed should have to pass some kind of test of its utility - terriers go to ground, toys temperament test, sight hound lure coursing, herders some kind of instinct test, working dogs carting, guarding, or whatever, etc.

BTW, Didn't I hear the commentators state that Brittanies were originally poachers' dogs?

[KwikIrish]

Now, show people, don't hate me for saying this next bit. JMO is that no sporting dog should be shown if it has not proven itself in the field in some manner: Hunting legs, Trial entrance. something.

This concept is broght up oftin, and the remark that seems to come up fairly frequently is that if bench should prove field, than field should prove bench.
Not a great idea in either aspect in my mind. If, as a breeder, I am looking to better my breed, I will know better than to look to a dog who lacks the field quality desired. I care not to see every dog required to get that field proof, as I imagine it would quickly become a joke of a requirement, with a dramatic rise in undeserving dogs getting their requirements. I'd rather be able to find breeders who are making that attempt through their own desire. That is where you will find the prize of our breed's future, not in some mandatory check the block situation.

[KwikIrish]

Now, show people, don't hate me for saying this next bit. JMO is that no sporting dog should be shown if it has not proven itself in the field in some manner: Hunting legs, Trial entrance. something.

This concept is broght up oftin, and the remark that seems to come up fairly frequently is that if bench should prove field, than field should prove bench.
Not a great idea in either aspect in my mind. If, as a breeder, I am looking to better my breed, I will know better than to look to a dog who lacks the field quality desired. I care not to see every dog required to get that field proof, as I imagine it would quickly become a joke of a requirement, with a dramatic rise in undeserving dogs getting their requirements. I'd rather be able to find breeders who are making that attempt through their own desire. That is where you will find the prize of our breed's future, not in some mandatory check the block situation.

1st sorry for the spelling errors
and 2nd MTA this is from a show person's background

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

All these thoughts & Ideas sound good but would not only give NewBies more reasons to not get involved but alot of the veterans would also quit.
All these things cost more money & time.

[Dave Quindt]

Now, show people, don't hate me for saying this next bit. JMO is that no sporting dog should be shown if it has not proven itself in the field in some manner: Hunting legs, Trial entrance. something.

sporting dogs should do what they were bred to do. In the sporting dog group, that means hunt.

Ok, that's probably all true and I agree. But to be blunt; so what?

We all would like things to be different, but they are not. Sporting dog breeds owned by non-hunters is a fact of life; you're not putting the Genie back into the bottle.

I saw a post on another board from hunting dog owner in Germany complaining of sporting breeds being imported into the country by non-hunters so they can participate in conformation shows. So even in a country where hunting dog breeding organizations are authorized by the government, they can't stop all of this.

The real issue is how do we manage perspective puppy buyers who will/many hunt their dogs so they can clearly and easily separate the wheat from the non-hunting (or insufficient hunting) chaff?

The ironic thing is that in most sporting breed clubs (Labs & Goldens probably being the only exceptions) think of what we could do if we could get more hunting owners to join the national clubs and vote for pro-field officers and rule changes. They wouldn't even need to get involved in local clubs; just become a member and understand who to vote for.

Then again, it's just easier to sit on the internet and b*tch and moan about "the show folks" than to do anything about it. And I'm as guilty as anyone.

JMO,
Dave

[ezzy333]

Dave,

Sorry if I wasn't clear with what I meant. I didn't say that the field trial people split the breeds, I just said, I thought, that most show type dogs couldn't run like the field trial dogs. That sadly is the fault of both sides.

I agree with all you said above. I have been trying to say that for years but so many just don't want to hear it and have been brained washed possibly by all of the reasons or excuses of why there is a split.

I think you said everything I wanted to say and did it better than I do so I will just sit here and say thanks for being honest.

Ezzy

[fuzznut]

Westminster pointing dog entries
Pointer 1 Jh
GSP 9 Jh/ 1 SH/ 1 MH/ 1 DC
Eng Sett 4 JH
GWP 1 JH
Viz- 13 Jh/ 4 MH
Weim 1 MH
Griff 1 JH
Irish RW 4 Jh
Spinones 2 MH/1 SH

[ezzy333]

Must not have been and Brits. I'm not going to watch any more.

Ezzy

[3Britts]

Westminster pointing dog entries
Pointer 1 Jh
GSP 9 Jh/ 1 SH/ 1 MH/ 1 DC
Eng Sett 4 JH
GWP 1 JH
Viz- 13 Jh/ 4 MH
Weim 1 MH
Griff 1 JH
Irish RW 4 Jh
Spinones 2 MH/1 SH

Now that makes me happy.
KwikIrish just to clarify, I do show my dogs, trial them too.
Dave, clam down, don't want to get your heart over taxed. It's the aunery that splits so many hunting breeds into the show and field factions.

[KwikIrish]

Westminster pointing dog entries
Pointer 1 Jh
GSP 9 Jh/ 1 SH/ 1 MH/ 1 DC
Eng Sett 4 JH
GWP 1 JH
Viz- 13 Jh/ 4 MH
Weim 1 MH
Griff 1 JH
Irish RW 4 Jh
Spinones 2 MH/1 SH

GSP's and V's doing well for themselves.
Brits had none
Irish had 2 JH, but one of those was Absent.

[JKP]

Anyone here feel that a Junior Hunter is proof of ability? not knocking it...its a good start...but I wouldn't think that a show dog with a JH is anything more than a show kennel trying to "prove" they're breeding working dogs. Takes a bit more...

[ezzy333]

JH is the only one that shows natural ability. SH and MH show the trainability and the training that needs to be there. Sad thing is so many people train for the JH. I refuse to do that as I want to see what is htere to work with.

Ezzy

[northern cajun]

Westminster pointing dog entries
Pointer 1 Jh
GSP 9 Jh/ 1 SH/ 1 MH/ 1 DC
Eng Sett 4 JH
GWP 1 JH
Viz- 13 Jh/ 4 MH
Weim 1 MH
Griff 1 JH
Irish RW 4 Jh
Spinones 2 MH/1 SH

Fuzz what was the total number of dogs in the sporting group? Just Curious.
SO 33 JH's, 2 SH's, 7 MH's and a DC.

[kninebirddog]

The hunt test I was just at the JH actually had to show a real point not just a mere suggestion of one. Was nice to see judges looking for real acnowledgement of a bird and point versus some others dogs I saw that had a JH which just happened to stop where a bird happened to be glad to see they stiffened up the requirements or at leastin cal they have

[ezzy333]

They have always had to point here in the mid-west. Seems things get sloppier too often as you get out southwest. Think it is the California influence.

Ezzy

[markj]

Buy my hunting dog from a show breeder??? Don't think so

Anyone here feel that a Junior Hunter is proof of ability?

Best dog I owned was from show stock here in Nebraska. I lookesd further into the ped and saw to my amazement the dam and sire were both KS dogs imported from Germany out of a kennel name of Hege-Haus. He was winning just about every show he entered, I got a female he said might not do good in the show ring. She was the hardest hunting dog I ever had. Look back and see where the show dogs came from, them kennels were all hunting dog kennels in Germany for the most part. But Germans want conformation and ability hence the KS titles and such. DC is what the breeders should be going for, not just one or the other.

This split dont need to be so, stop knocking the other side, we all need to get together and fight the antis or a lot of what we know may well go away. Scoff? Well I said it about motorcycle exhaust now we are facing federal legislation says we cannot modify exhaust on bikes made after 2013. Police yourself or laws will be passed and they will not police you like you wish. Many folks see trainers and do not understand what is going on.

I know one real good trainer moved due to folks calling the pound and telling them he had the dogs in tiny little crates (above ground kennels) so watch yourself and always put a good face towards anyone just in case.

[kninebirddog]

Actually I see he dogs that are from the southwest breedings to be more stylish and more natural solid pointing. I know a few people who had some showback east dogs which had legs from back at home but never could finish here. So just going by what I see and like as for many years it was a flash point that would pass and now those same dogs no matter where they come.from would fail todays standards.

[Cajun Casey]

When I see a clear white in the GSP Ring at The Garden, I may believe that everyone is working together. Until then, it is sour grapes as usual, IMO.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

CC you mean like this???

[Neil]

I didn't watch the whole thing but I am pretty sure I saw a Britt when they announced the winners.

Too late, the Boykin has already split, the Boykin Spaniel Society (BSS) (the main registry) did not want to go AKC, so a splinter group went ahead on their own. Then BSS sued and won that they could not use their breed standard, so the AKC group had to modify it.

None of it is good.

I tried to explain to BSS that they could control what happened with the AKC as the breed club based on my Brittany experience, they elected to ignore me. BSS is a wonderful, well meaning organization that has very deep pockets, it may have the greatest net worth of any dog club other than Westminster.

Sad,

Neil

[Cajun Casey]

VZ, I view this on a phone, so I will have to assume she has little or no ticking. Personally, I would love to see a dog with major body patches, like Slick or Clown, but anything to break the monotony of those clean ticked bodies. I do not like the androgenous heads, either, or the weak jawlines.