Just curious as to the explanation

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:22 pm

A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.

They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds.'

In brace by brace commentary from 2008 and 2009, 30-40 % of these dogs are false pointing...unproductives.

AAMES 2010
It is puzzling to me, that so many of the 'best' dogs go LOST, even with Trackers, Radio collars and Spotters on horses, in Winter time, with High visibility.
Some dogs only have 0-1 finds in a 1.5 hour run.

These are 'the best trial dogs in America', yet so many have unproductive points.....
Keep in mind, that This is a groomed (Preserve like ) course with 14,000 acres.

And interesting today in that the brace run was cancelled due to Snow and Ice.

Lester's Snowatch:
1 find at :15, an unproductive at 26, picked up at 1:30.

Poison:
An unproductive at :7, a back at :15, an unproductive at :26, picked up at :26.

Thunder House:
1 find at 1:45, picked up at 2:40; forward race, brutal conditions.

South's Late Night:
Unproductive at :15 on rabbit; find at :40, find at 1:05, back at 1:45, find at 1:57, finished the 3 hours; strong forward race under brutal conditions.

Elhew Sinbad:
2 finds at :15 and :17; a divided find at :25;
2 unproductives at :57 and 1:38. Picked up at 1:38.

Prairieland Pride:
Lost at 1:44.

Tekoa Mountain Jettsun:
1 find at :18; lost at :50.

Mega Touch:
1 find at :49; lost at 1:50.

Patriote:
An unproductive at :08; a back at :43; and a divided find at :58. Lost at 1:32.

Phillips White Twist:
Finds at :21 and :26; backs at :13 and :31; Unproductive at :38; handler asked for tracer at 1:39.

Miller's On Line:
3 finds; first at :13, second at :29, third at 1:02. Lost at 2:40.

Phantom's Last Dime:
Had a find at :14 and another at :19. Handler asked for tracker at 1:18.

Best dog of the day had great run: 10 finds, 1 unproductive

In the Shadow:
10 finds at :16, :18, 1:00, 1:15, 1:49, 2:10, 2:28, 2:35, 2:52, 2:59; 1 unproductive at 1:44; strong forward race.

White Powder Pete:
7 finds at 1:37, 1:41, 1:55, 2:28, 2:40, 2:51, and 3:00; well applied forward race.

I will refrain from any response. I am just curious as to the explanation of this finding. I won't say another word, just wonder what the deal is. Fire away.

Vonrommel · Post by **Vonrommel** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:34 pm

Go ride and see for yourself!

I have the number for the wrangler if you really want to see!

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:38 pm

Since you promised not to respond to the answer, here goes. The reason the dogs did so bad was they were all pointing dogs, never would of happened with flushing dogs, enough said.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:52 pm

Birddogz -

Your understanding of what occurs at a field trial is virtually non-existent. Your capacity for rudeness, on the other hand, is boundless.

Based on your continual refusal to acknowledge attempts at educating you regarding what goes on at a field trial I would say that you have a closed mind on the subject. When detailed explanations are offered, in good faith, you respond with arrogant, baiting and demeaning remarks.

I fail to see where further discourse on the subject will result in anything but more rude responses from you. On the subject of Field trials, it is my considered opinion that your preconcieved notions are immutable.

This renders any further attempt to discuss the subject with you a fools errand and a waste of bandwidth..

You are simply not educable on the subject ... because you refuse to be.

You need to go see a few trials first. Up your way you are most fortunate in that there are a fair number of trials conducted in the late summer/early fall on the northern praries. Many are conducted on wild birds. Many are championships which draw some of the very best dogs and handlers in the field trial world as participants.

But you won't do that...will you??

Enjoy your sport. Allow others to enjoy theirs. Please.

RayG

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:05 pm

Respond to the article Ray, not me. No reason to discuss me. Again, I await response TO THE ARTICLE!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:07 pm

May we have the citation on the "article?"

Vonrommel · Post by **Vonrommel** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:20 pm

This aint hunting. This is a field trial, and if you think they are even remotely similar you need to do more research.

The judges are not looking for "more moderate paced hunting pointers" to win this stake, it is "THE" ALL-AGE stake after all.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:23 pm

BD you just never stop,you seem determined make people dislike you.If it was so embarrising they buried it then HOW did you dig it up?? :roll:

Vonrommel · Post by **Vonrommel** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:38 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:May we have the citation on the "article?"

He didn't get it from the Ames site, he found it here(or posted it there too);

http://www.gwpca.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5920

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:48 pm

Vonrommel wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:May we have the citation on the "article?"

He didn't get it from the Ames site, he found it here(or posted it there too);

http://www.gwpca.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5920

I've read the original study. Quail Forever has it in some of their literature. It wasn't about dogs. It was about the movement dynamics of wild and released quail. A survey was done at Ames (UT) in response to one done as part of the Albany Project. Micah Holmes did a wild bird survey out on Packsaddle WMA in Western Oklahoma fifteen years ago, also. Dr. Fred Guthery has published a lot of data acquired with the assistance of dogs and German shorthairs were used by the Sutton Avian Research Center for carcass location when they began the surveys that led to the determination that fence tagging saved prairie chickens and quail from impact death.

For what it's worth.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:51 pm

I think that it should be explained for the lurkers. There are very good reasons why dogs are picked up and why there can be unproductives. But asking why dogs don't make it around is like asking why some Formula 1 cars spin out...this is competition at the edge...its like asking why stock cars finish and so few Indy cars can get through the race....we're talking a whole different game. The best win....like in any other competition...so why would anyone worry about the dogs that didn't make it around...any dog can have an off day and not every dog can be its best every day. These guys are looking for the best dog...that can scent and nail birds at warp speed and show control as well....they're looking for the Mach 1 fighter of the bird dog world not the street sweeper....took me a while to get it...and I get it now.

BD...give it a rest...

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:23 pm

BD ya gotta admire your tenacity!!!

Though to have a conversation with you is near impossible!! Any decently bred dog can go out and point birds and have them shot as yours do, nothing impressive with that at all. Especially when you live in the mecca of pheasant country!

As for the article, when birds are moving they find them. When they dig in they get lost. My pups grand dad had over 20 finds in his 3 hour brace. Luck of the draw, bird movement etc.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:25 pm

Biddogz -

You have already made your mind up and it is closed.

Your original post put forward the "question" in the manner of the prosecuting attorney who asked the witness: "So when did you stop beating your wife Mr. X". There is no purpose in going forward with that kind of "discussion", because it is a trick, a ploy and to respond to it in any honest way would be a waste of time and effort.

Oh by the way...When someone is paying my salary, they can demand that I respond to their requests. Last time I checked...I ain't on your payroll so you have no right to demand that I do anything. You could ask nicely, but that just ain't your style.

I would most certainly be willing to tutor you on the subject of field trialing, but it will cost you dearly. First your pride, then your preconcieved notions, and lastly your overinflated opinion of yourself.

Then you might just be ready to learn something.

Enjoy your sport. Allow others to enjoy theirs.

Quit being an arrogant jackass.

RayG

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:28 pm

I don't want to get in a pissin contest with anyone but if his statistics are correct I am curious to know the answer to his question as well. I am not bashing field trialers. I have friends who are trialers and I buy dogs from these people out of trial breeding so I am not bashing the dogs I am just kind of curious as to why such poor showings for such well trained dogs? I am educable given satisfactory evidence to support your argument but I really did not see anyone demonstrating a clear and concise explanation of what was going on. I have seen some of Birddogz past posts and sometimes he can be a bit hard to get through to when it comes to hunting vs. trialing dogs but I am a bit more level headed or at least I think I am.

I understand that these are huge running dogs but I also realize that someone is putting a lot of time, money, and effort into training these dogs and if his info. is correct it is like, to use a racing euphanism like JKP, a Top Fuel Dragster running 60 miles an hour through the 1\4. If these dogs are not finding birds or going lost then there seems to be something wrong here and someone wasted a heck of a lot of money for nothing. I respect that these dogs are elite canine athletes and are trained like canine Navy SEALS to make it where they are but with showings like that it is like the SEALS getting their a$$es kicked by Somali pirates in a battle. JMO

Any explanation would be greatly appreciated on my part. Thanks in advance Ray.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:46 pm

Where is this study? Dude your dogs or what they are & AA dogs are what they are can you not deal with that? Tell you what bring your dogs down to the same country these dogs running in you will get your feelings hurt there aren't 50 birds in lil 50 ac fields like you talk about.

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:25 am

Ya know how birds leave a field if you slam the truck's door on arrival?

Do ya think maybe 100 or more horses and riders might have the same effect?

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:51 am

I didnt read the article today but I read it a couple years ago. If I remember right they were studying bird movement. They said that in alot of cases when a dog has an unproductive there were birds there they just moved. I also think depending on the weather the birds dont flush. I remember 3 years ago in South Dakota my buddies brittney came flying around some cattails and out of sight, I heard the ice break and saw his dog bobbing in the water. I yelled for my buddy to come and get his dog, partly because it was his dog but more because I weigh 240 and he is only 170. All 5 of us were standing there talking, I had been yelling for help.....10 minutes later a cock pheasant gets up no more that 10 feet from me (can you say dug in?)

If I remember right more than one day of the Nat Ch at Ames was cancelled last year, I believe they canceled because of saftey for riders, horses, and dogs. It had nothing to do with any of the dogs ability.

Oh and a dog is considered lost when the tracking reciever is requested. They are not allowed to use them the whole brace.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:04 am

Another thing. If the dog isn't getting it done, and isn't in contention, then a lot of times, the handler will pick up the dog as a curteousy to judges and gallery and etc.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:15 am

Do handlers command dogs to relocate when a bird can't be produced? Are these dogs also trained to stop to flush? might a dog stop on the flush and be so steady as to be found even after the bird has left?

I get it....average need not apply....very good save your money....warp speed required..."and some of you will not come home"....winner take all. If I understand, that's what you have to get your head around.

gspguy · Post by **gspguy** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:35 am

If you have the study then you know the answers.

Why don't you just state your opinion and move on instead of continually stirring the pot behind a thinly veiled inquiry of which you already have the answers. Don't you have something better to do. If you get any more full of yourself there will need to be 2 of you.

"Narcissists sniff other people's emotions the way hound dogs sniff blood."

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:37 am

JKP wrote:might a dog stop on the flush and be so steady as to be found even after the bird has left?

That is a great point!!

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:38 am

Yes, the dog can be cued to relocate.
Yes, they must stop to flush.
Usually the handler can tell when the dog is standing a STF, but might check in front of him anyway, just in case. Because the handler and dog are in front of the judges, sometimes the handler will inform the judges that the dog is standing but the birds have lifted. Dog doesn't get credit for anything in that case -it's a non-event (altough if it happens twice or more, it can become a question mark or a negative in the judge's mind).

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:38 am

Never played the big games or even seen one. Would love to follow along some day.
How much time is allotted to a brace at that particular event?
An unproductive can just mean that the dog was on point and the bird eventually flew off, walked off, a hawk got it, or it may have been a stop to flush.
I saw on one note that conditions were brutal.
Dogs not usually lost but on point and one can not find the dog so they use the tracker to locate and then the dog is tossed. To bad, because that dog did its job but the handler or scout did not, I am guessing.
There are two dogs on the course at a time so birds may be split. Also maybe dog just had a bad day.
I suspect there are so many variables like in hunting or any trial.

I ran in one venue with my french brit Buster. It was an UKC event. the brace was only 15 min. long and was a continuing course, in other words where one brace stops the next starts.

Buster two different times went on point. (this was a wild bird trial on a GA plantation in the pines). Each time was unproductive. I was a little annoyed, till I got back to the gallery which was on a wagon following along. They said he had the birds nailed then when we got with in 50 yards or so they took off about fifty yards in front of him, if I recall each time they must have walked over a knowel before flying off. (these were coveys) Buster is a grouse dog so used to one or two birds most of the time.

I have also read accounts of dogs having multiple finds in the trials, with great style, speed etc.
Anyway, s@@## happens. Same as hunting wild.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:45 am

I don’t agree that field trials have nothing to do with hunting, but I will say that field trials have a lot to do than just hunt. If you don’t have a bird dog first in both hunting and field trials, you need to go look for another dog.

Field trials are trying to get dogs to do what would be considered nest to imposable by a bird dog. So we try to get them to run as hard as they can, as fast, find a limited number of birds in places you would not want to go and stand with such intensity that the dog looks like he is a statue. It’s easy to kill birds went there are 50 in a 40 acre field, but how about 1 covey in 500 acres. You are without a doubt trying to push the envelope, as all athletics do, to the point that no one else can.

Non productives, there are a number of reasons for a non productive, sometimes it’s as simple as the birds ran off, sometimes it’s a dog with old scent, sometimes it’s a dog is over broke, and sometimes it’s you just didn’t see the birds.
One other think that I don’t think too many people realize, if a dog is running all out he can only scent half the ground he is running, well it’s not quite that, because the scent cone is V shaped, but regardless he is going to miss some. However think of it interims of the ground that dog covers. If your dog is going to stick his nose under every bush, ya it most likely will find every bird in those 500 acres, but a dog that is going to where the birds should be (not in the middle of a plowed field and such) it will only that that trial dog, maybe 30 minutes to cover those 500 areas, but it’s going to take all day with that windshield wiper and at the end of the day that trial dog will cover a lot more ground and most likely find more birds. Now if you are happy with that 50 birds in a 40 acre field, more power to you.

JKP after an attempt is made you produce birds, the handler can relocate their dog, also if the handler chooses not to relocate the dog can be penalized.

Dogs most stop to flush, but if a dog put birds in the air during a relocation that dog can be penalized.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:53 am

tommyboy72 wrote:I don't want to get in a pissin contest with anyone but if his statistics are correct I am curious to know the answer to his question as well. I am not bashing field trialers. I have friends who are trialers and I buy dogs from these people out of trial breeding so I am not bashing the dogs I am just kind of curious as to why such poor showings for such well trained dogs? I am educable given satisfactory evidence to support your argument but I really did not see anyone demonstrating a clear and concise explanation of what was going on. I have seen some of Birddogz past posts and sometimes he can be a bit hard to get through to when it comes to hunting vs. trialing dogs but I am a bit more level headed or at least I think I am. I understand that these are huge running dogs but I also realize that someone is putting a lot of time, money, and effort into training these dogs and if his info. is correct it is like, to use a racing euphanism like JKP, a Top Fuel Dragster running 60 miles an hour through the 1\4. If these dogs are not finding birds or going lost then there seems to be something wrong here and someone wasted a heck of a lot of money for nothing. I respect that these dogs are elite canine athletes and are trained like canine Navy SEALS to make it where they are but with showings like that it is like the SEALS getting their a$$es kicked by Somali pirates in a battle. JMO

Any explanation would be greatly appreciated on my part. Thanks in advance Ray.

First of all, that is the worst analogy ive seen. Anyway, you guys need to go see it for yourself. I think in the original rant(post), you stated its basically a preserve. Get a clue! It is far from that. Ive been there and it is 18,000 acres of well manicured farm ground. Its edged country, which the original poster knows nothing about. I live in pheasant country also, and ive been up to ND many times to hunt. It's a different ball game.

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:05 am

You know I watched the Daytona 500 yesterday, those cars did not have air bags, leather seats, power seats, air conditioning, Sirus radio, power windows and all the other great little things we enjoy in our cars and trucks. Why do they race at daytona or F1 or any other venue? They race to develope better motors, better brakes, better shocks and many other improvements in the cars we drive every day. This is why they run trials, you may not want to take your AA dog hunting everyday but it does play an important part in the improvement of the breed. Where do you think those "moderate paced hunting pointers" came from other "moderate paced hunting pointers", No they came from FT Pointers.

FTs may not be for all people to enjoy like I do but if you want a hunting dog you need the FT dogs to prove themselves and produce the hunting dogs them for you.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:13 am

Crestonegsp wrote:You know I watched the Daytona 500 yesterday, those cars did not have air bags, leather seats, power seats, air conditioning, Sirus radio, power windows and all the other great little things we enjoy in our cars and trucks. Why do they race at daytona or F1 or any other venue? They race to develope better motors, better brakes, better shocks and many other improvements in the cars we drive every day. This is why they run trials, you may not want to take your AA dog hunting everyday but it does play an important part in the improvement of the breed. Where do you think those "moderate paced hunting pointers" came from other "moderate paced hunting pointers", No they came from FT Pointers.

FTs may not be for all people to enjoy like I do but if you want a hunting dog you need the FT dogs to prove themselves and produce the hunting dogs them for you.

That is an analogy.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:23 am

tommyboy72 wrote:but if his statistics are correct I am curious to know the answer to his question as well.

Hey, birddogz claims to be a scientific type but his ability to honestly analyze statistics is worth about as much as his knowledge of field trials. You should know that since you have been on this board for at least one of his rants.

If he actually has copies of the originally published papers from the three different studies of this type that were done (mine are lost on a dead hard drive from many, many years ago) perhaps he could elaborate on the definition of "available birds" used in each.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:42 am

Birddogz wrote:...It is puzzling to me, that so many of the 'best' dogs go LOST, even with Trackers, Radio collars and Spotters on horses, in Winter time, with High visibility....

Gosh, I don't know the why of that article.

I never field trialed or even watched one.

I do know that I am glad that FTers and the FT games exist because they turn out some wonderful dogs(one washout that makes me grin warmly wherever his paws hit the dirt); they have contributed signifactly to the knowledge base of dogs and breed pairings; they have helped expand everyone's awareness of important issues, health and other, that dogs face and, they have provided endless opportunities for many folks to choose between a fire tiger WiggleWart or a blue, jointed Rapala to discover what works best.

Thank you FTers, for all that you have done for all of our dogs.

Vonrommel · Post by **Vonrommel** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:44 am

The morning and evening courses at ames are between 11 and 12 miles long and the dogs cover that ground at an AVERAGE of 3.6 to 4.0 MPH. The brace Saturday morning had covered the entire 11 miles in the 3 hours, with Touch's Whiteout scoring 6 finds along the way. (The 7th was just after time)

Hunting dogs arent going at that pace for 3 hours, and if they did, they would miss birds too.

The game isn't about who can find the most birds, and I guess that's why I said "This aint hunting", the winning dog has to have the total package, and he won't even be considered if he's sniffing every piece of cover.

Anyone interested in this topic should really go ride a few braces at Ames, see the courses, see the cover, see the speed the dogs are hunting at, and it should become more clear. These are the extreme athelets of the sport.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:56 am

It was pretty entertaining to me anyways the first half a dozen times this argument was started, it just seems stale now. Find another hot topic to debate, this one has been done to death.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:04 am

Dogs not usually lost but on point and one can not find the dog so they use the tracker to locate and then the dog is tossed. To bad, because that dog did its job but the handler or scout did not, I am guessing

These guys are looking for the best dog...that can scent and nail birds at warp speed and show control as well....they're looking for the Mach 1 fighter of the bird dog world not the street sweeper....took me a while to get it...and I get it now.

If I remember right more than one day of the Nat Ch at Ames was canceled last year, I believe they canceled because of saftey for riders, horses, and dogs. It had nothing to do with any of the dogs ability.

One other think that I don’t think too many people realize, if a dog is running all out he can only scent half the ground he is running, well it’s not quite that, because the scent cone is V shaped, but regardless he is going to miss some.

I think whats he's trying to point out is that the field trials are out of touch with real world hunting and with all I've read about them over the past month maybe there needs to be a change. I don't understand how a dog running around a warp speed, running by 95% of the birds is any better than the street sweeper who's nailing them, makes know sense to me. I can't imagine having a dog so lost that I would have to bounce a beam off a satellite to find him, to me that would be dogs fault. If the trial was held in Minnesota or the Dakotas I could understand how it would be possible to have a trial canceled due to snow, in Tennessee that is laughable. Yes, the best pheasant hunting lands in U.S. are in places that fields are small (160) acres or less, so why would we want a dog the would run 600 yards out? A month ago I thought have Champions in a pedigree meant a lot, now not so much, I guess I would rather see Master Hunter in the title. The problem is in the fact that what a dog needs to do in the Midwest is completely different than a dog may need to hunt in the South, or other regions.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:06 am

Crestonegsp wrote:You know I watched the Daytona 500 yesterday, those cars did not have air bags, leather seats, power seats, air conditioning, Sirus radio, power windows and all the other great little things we enjoy in our cars and trucks. Why do they race at daytona or F1 or any other venue? They race to develope better motors, better brakes, better shocks and many other improvements in the cars we drive every day. This is why they run trials, you may not want to take your AA dog hunting everyday but it does play an important part in the improvement of the breed. Where do you think those "moderate paced hunting pointers" came from other "moderate paced hunting pointers", No they came from FT Pointers.

FTs may not be for all people to enjoy like I do but if you want a hunting dog you need the FT dogs to prove themselves and produce the hunting dogs them for you.

Just like trial dogs, they run in pairs, too!

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:19 am

nikegundog wrote:
Dogs not usually lost but on point and one can not find the dog so they use the tracker to locate and then the dog is tossed. To bad, because that dog did its job but the handler or scout did not, I am guessing

These guys are looking for the best dog...that can scent and nail birds at warp speed and show control as well....they're looking for the Mach 1 fighter of the bird dog world not the street sweeper....took me a while to get it...and I get it now.

If I remember right more than one day of the Nat Ch at Ames was canceled last year, I believe they canceled because of saftey for riders, horses, and dogs. It had nothing to do with any of the dogs ability.

One other think that I don’t think too many people realize, if a dog is running all out he can only scent half the ground he is running, well it’s not quite that, because the scent cone is V shaped, but regardless he is going to miss some.
I think whats he's trying to point out is that the field trials are out of touch with real world hunting and with all I've read about them over the past month maybe there needs to be a change. I don't understand how a dog running around a warp speed, running by 95% of the birds is any better than the street sweeper who's nailing them, makes know sense to me. I can't imagine having a dog so lost that I would have to bounce a beam off a satellite to find him, to me that would be dogs fault. If the trial was held in Minnesota or the Dakotas I could understand how it would be possible to have a trial canceled due to snow, in Tennessee that is laughable. Yes, the best pheasant hunting lands in U.S. are in places that fields are small (160) acres or less, so why would we want a dog the would run 600 yards out? A month ago I thought have Champions in a pedigree meant a lot, now not so much, I guess I would rather see Master Hunter in the title. The problem is in the fact that what a dog needs to do in the Midwest is completely different than a dog may need to hunt in the South, or other regions.

We breed these supreme athletes so hunter have something that will go out at least 30 yds in front of the hunter. You cant breed a shoe shiner to a shoe shiner and make a field trial dog. But out of a litter of 10 field trial bred dogs, maybe, MAYBE 1 will make the field trials. The other 9 will most likely become hunting dogs. This game has been around for over 100 years and what I just stated has held true the entire time.

For lab guys, the trials that they do are stupid to some. "Why would send a dog on a 700 blind retrieve? Shoot better!", etc....

We do these things because if these animals can do what we ask from them at the most extreme, they they will do it in the field for the avg. hunter.

BTW, good luck finding a 160 acre field in ND and western SD, NE, KS. I want my hunting dogs to run big. And I kill plenty of WILD BIRDS!!!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:29 am

nikegundog wrote:
Dogs not usually lost but on point and one can not find the dog so they use the tracker to locate and then the dog is tossed. To bad, because that dog did its job but the handler or scout did not, I am guessing

These guys are looking for the best dog...that can scent and nail birds at warp speed and show control as well....they're looking for the Mach 1 fighter of the bird dog world not the street sweeper....took me a while to get it...and I get it now.

If I remember right more than one day of the Nat Ch at Ames was canceled last year, I believe they canceled because of saftey for riders, horses, and dogs. It had nothing to do with any of the dogs ability.

One other think that I don’t think too many people realize, if a dog is running all out he can only scent half the ground he is running, well it’s not quite that, because the scent cone is V shaped, but regardless he is going to miss some.
I think whats he's trying to point out is that the field trials are out of touch with real world hunting and with all I've read about them over the past month maybe there needs to be a change. I don't understand how a dog running around a warp speed, running by 95% of the birds is any better than the street sweeper who's nailing them, makes know sense to me. I can't imagine having a dog so lost that I would have to bounce a beam off a satellite to find him, to me that would be dogs fault. If the trial was held in Minnesota or the Dakotas I could understand how it would be possible to have a trial canceled due to snow, in Tennessee that is laughable. Yes, the best pheasant hunting lands in U.S. are in places that fields are small (160) acres or less, so why would we want a dog the would run 600 yards out? A month ago I thought have Champions in a pedigree meant a lot, now not so much, I guess I would rather see Master Hunter in the title. The problem is in the fact that what a dog needs to do in the Midwest is completely different than a dog may need to hunt in the South, or other regions.

That's fine, buy and run what you like, some people like running AA dogs so they do.

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:30 am

I think whats he's trying to point out is that the field trials are out of touch with real world hunting and with all I've read about them over the past month maybe there needs to be a change. I don't understand how a dog running around a warp speed, running by 95% of the birds is any better than the street sweeper who's nailing them, makes know sense to me. I can't imagine having a dog so lost that I would have to bounce a beam off a satellite to find him, to me that would be dogs fault. If the trial was held in Minnesota or the Dakotas I could understand how it would be possible to have a trial canceled due to snow, in Tennessee that is laughable. Yes, the best pheasant hunting lands in U.S. are in places that fields are small (160) acres or less, so why would we want a dog the would run 600 yards out? A month ago I thought have Champions in a pedigree meant a lot, now not so much, I guess I would rather see Master Hunter in the title. The problem is in the fact that what a dog needs to do in the Midwest is completely different than a dog may need to hunt in the South, or other regions.

Different strokes man. I work with a bunch of guys who have deisel trucks, they poor thousands of dollars in them to get 10 more horses, they sit around touching themselves talking about the power of there truck. None of them will ever pull anything more than a 12 foot trailer with a atv on it. I think they are waisting there time and money but I dont say anything because that is their hobby like birddogs are mine. Most people have no need for a car that could keep up at Datona yesterday, I could care less. That didnt stop thousands and thousands of people from watching. I didnt understand it either but i have a better grasp now after seeing some horse back dogs run.

So you are saying all your years hunting in South Dakota youve never lost a dog? If thats true you are a lucky guy.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:34 am

We do these things because if these animals can do what we ask from them at the most extreme, they they will do it in the field for the avg. hunter.

BTW, good luck finding a 160 acre field in ND and western SD, NE, KS. I want my hunting dogs to run big. And I kill plenty of WILD BIRDS!!!

I think the point of question is whats the point of the most extreme if the dog is running by 95% of birds. I hunt in Eastern South Dakota, and MN where 80-160 acre fields are common place. Not to difficult to find one in ND.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:35 am

Nike how do you get 95% out of some. I don’t care what kind of dog you have, if any, but all dogs are going to miss SOME. Before you start sticking your nose into this maybe you should listen and read what the rest of us are saying. Ignorance is commenting on something you have NO knowledge of. Before you make another comment, I think, maybe you should go to a few trials. Also what you and Birddogz just cannot fathom is that most of us hunt and we are talking from knowledge, not ignorance.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:37 am

tommyboy72 wrote:I don't want to get in a pissin contest with anyone but if his statistics are correct I am curious to know the answer to his question as well.

Tommyboy -

First a quote from former chief statistician of the phamaceutical firm i used to work for:

Figures do not lie, but liars sure do know how to figure."

Statistics, used improperly can be used to "prove" all manner of incorrect things. Our government does it all the time.

In the body of this thread you have been given, by several others, some of the multitude of reason why the number of birds located at the national at Ames was low.

There is a mounted gallery that may number in the several hundreds. That many horses probably feels like an earthquake to the birds. They know when to run and when and where to hide. That was very clearly established by the study.

The dogs are, very often, well out front. This type of dog is trained to point at first scent, and once point is established, is trained to wait there until the handler gets there. It is entirely possible that spooky birds can run out from under such a point, or flush wild... long before the people and horses get there.

The National Championship is a three hour endurance stake set up and evaluated on very much what are shooting dog standards. However, ALL of the qualifying stakes, each and every one of them, is an All Age stake, judged on all age standards. Therefore, the same dog that ran to the limits and won in the prairies of Saskatchewan or perhaps the pinewoods of the deep South or perhaps the flatlands of Oklahoma... now has to run and handle...for THREE hours, in agricultural edge country in western TN. This is a huge adjustment for this kind of dog.

The average championship stake in AF is a one hour stake. This is a long time for a dog and handler to be under intense scrutiny, with every single move being observed and evaluated. An hour is a long time for a dog to be perfect or nearly so. The National Championship is THREE times longer. That is an eternity by comparison and the scrutiny is as intense as it gets because this one is for all the marbles.

I have been to the Ames plantation once, for the Hobart Ames qualifier that precedes the National. It is a very demanding place to run a dog. If it is wet, the ground turns to a sucking mud that will rip the life out of anything that has to run in it. If it is dry,it is REALLY dry...the fields reminiscent of a dried up lake bed. If it is cold, it can be brutal because there is nothing between the Arctic and Grand Juction to break the wind except a few trees.

A field trial is a show, a performance, where the handler attempts to present their dog in the most favorable light and show to the judges the very best that the dog can do, in a multitude of different areas such as ground application, race, running style, bird finding ability, style on game, etc. The handler has only a finite amount of time to show all these things to the judge and make that most favorable impression. It is a game of extremes...no question. It is also a game where EVERYHING needs to be perfect, not just the important stuff. All of the dogs entered are exceptional dogs or they would not have made it this far. They all do the basic stuff extremely well, so, very often it is the little things that separate them.

Sometimes, when attempting that extreme performance, the dog goes a step beyond and crashes and burns. Much like the figure skater who goes for three consecutive triple axels and fails to land the third one. If he lands the third one he is a winner, so he goes for it. So too with bird dog field trials at the highest competitive level. If you want the dog to win, you gotta let it go for it, knowing that there is a very real possibility that it is going to blow open the envelope it is pushing.

Championship level field trials...are NOT a place for the average bird dog. They are not a place for the average field trial dog, for that matter.

I do seriously encourage anyone who has an open mind and the desire to see bird dogs perform at very high levels, to go see a major field trial and either rent or borrow a horse to ride some braces. You will come away with a very different picture of what has been painted by some folks. You will absolutely see some dogs doing some things that you did not think dogs could do.

Are field trials and field trial dogs right for everyone? Absolutely not. Are field trial dogs the best for everyone's needs? Absolutely not. But some of the things that have been valued at field trials over the years are some of the things that make our bird dogs what they are today.

RayG

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:40 am

by nikegundog

I could understand how it would be possible to have a trial canceled due to snow, in Tennessee that is laughable. Yes, the best pheasant hunting lands in U.S. are in places that fields are small (160) acres or less, so why would we want a dog the would run 600 yards out? A month ago I thought have Champions in a pedigree meant a lot, now not so much, I guess I would rather see Master Hunter in the title.

1. You clearly know nothing about riding a horse on ice, or better yet taking liability for hundreds of people riding horses on ice. The dogs are fine with the weather.

2. The sun does not rise and set in the bird dog world based on a given factions choice in the way or where they hunt. I do pheasant hunt occasionally but they are far and away my least favorite upland game to hunt, and if I was limited by my resources to only hunting pheasants I guess I would...but I would probably turn victimized, bitter and make a number of rash statements based on my ignorance.

3. I can put a master hunt title on almost any reasonably bred hunting dog ( I don't think however I can make this statement with the NAVHDA crowd.). I do however have progressingly difficult times doing the following: an AFC Title, a FC title, winning 1 Hour Stakes, Winning an AF Championships, qualifying a dog for the Nationals, Winning at a national level...so on and so forth.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:45 am

They cancelled the Ames Memorial for weather for the first time in history this year. Tennessee can have some nasty ice and they have this special freezing fog that can just destroy visibility. I believe if you look through the archives from the 2010 National, you wil see a couple of pictures of dogs with icicles frozen on their tails. And, no, they are not setters! That was after they went ahead with the trial. The first few days were too nasty to run at all.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:02 pm

Come on guys take it easy on BD, he isnt even here to defend himself. I have a feeling he will be on vacation for the next two weeks......

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:07 pm

So Birddogz,

Many have been kind enough to post an explanation for you in spite of the fact that you have offended most of them at one time or another. I think it is reasonable for me to say that these dogs are not your cup of tea and again, while it isn'y my place I believe they would not be a very good choice for your style of hunting. Frankly, they may not in a large body be dogs I would use every day guiding or pleasure hunting, not all my clients and or friends are physically fit enough or care to ride. I will say however, that I could use a littermate that I trained from day one, as it would be a different dog.

Has your curiosity been satisfied? That is a rather innocent agenda and I applaud you if that is what it is. Or...are your intentions more sinister? Do you want these dogs culled from the breeding pool and Ames burnt to the ground?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:11 pm

The whole point of what I was getting at was what I need in dogs is different than what you would want in a dog. Is that Ingorant?
I agree with Birddog 3412 different strokes for different folks.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:13 pm

nikegundog wrote:...I think the point of question is whats the point of the most extreme if the dog is running by 95% of birds. I hunt in Eastern South Dakota, and MN where 80-160 acre fields are common place. Not to difficult to find one in ND.

For some like myself, needing a dog to effectively hunt 600 yards away is not a reason for purchase.
What can be a reason for purchase, or the point, is that the manner of hunt of a FT dog that may reach that far depending upon several factors, for example, may be the manner of hunt that we enjoy watching.
That manner of hunt can be expressed in big cover or the tightest of alder runs.
I personally like to see a dog accererate in the middle of a turn.
Some dogs yawn in the middle of a turn.
Neither is best...however, each is often an informed choice by a smart, and satisfied, buyer.

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:18 pm

topher40 wrote:Come on guys take it easy on BD, he isnt even here to defend himself. I have a feeling he will be on vacation for the next two weeks......

I thought the OP asked a fair question and didn't seem to take it to a place that should warrant a ban. Seems to be a lot of insecure people maning the computers today.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:25 pm

by nikegundog

The whole point of what I was getting at was what I need in dogs is different than what you would want in a dog. Is that Ingorant?
I agree with Birddog 3412 different strokes for different folks.

Oh no, by all means I agree as well. There is no standard for hunting dogs, it always has been and always shall be that the beauty there is in the eye of the beholder. Trials exist because many people who put countless hours of unpaid time and effort in to sustaining a measurable way of looking at things and yet some insist on standing on the outside and demanding change? Does that make any sense or leave a reasonable person who is involved room to debate someone who isn't? It is a circular argument because there is no common perspective.

The ignorance comment is based on people making suppositions as to why something should be different yet they have no point of reference. They want this thing at Ames done a reasonable schedule and most handlers would be fine in the weather, but they have factors not the least of which is safety to consider. There are a large number of venues to choose from that fit the bill for most of our hunting purposes better testing and competition. I say get involved in the one that suits you best... and see the different folks for different strokes axiom from both sides of the table.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:53 pm

jayhawkj wrote:
topher40 wrote:Come on guys take it easy on BD, he isnt even here to defend himself. I have a feeling he will be on vacation for the next two weeks......
I thought the OP asked a fair question and didn't seem to take it to a place that should warrant a ban. Seems to be a lot of insecure people maning the computers today.

This post hasnt warranted the ban, remember there is more than meets the publics eye when a decision like this is made.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:14 pm

Winchey wrote:It was pretty entertaining to me anyways the first half a dozen times this argument was started, it just seems stale now. Find another hot topic to debate, this one has been done to death.

I hear that.

jayhawkj · Post by **jayhawkj** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:33 pm

topher40 wrote:
jayhawkj wrote:
topher40 wrote:Come on guys take it easy on BD, he isnt even here to defend himself. I have a feeling he will be on vacation for the next two weeks......
I thought the OP asked a fair question and didn't seem to take it to a place that should warrant a ban. Seems to be a lot of insecure people maning the computers today.

This post hasnt warranted the ban, remember there is more than meets the publics eye when a decision like this is made.

I'll just say I thought this thread had potential, could someone at least answer the original question?