Bad breeder! Bad! - What to do when breeders go bad?

wgonfan · Post by **wgonfan** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:01 pm

I bought a GWP a while back, the dog has since been diagnosed with Hip dysplasia. When I purchased the dog, the breeder gauranteed him against bad hips or any genetic defects. When the isssue was first brought to the breeders attention the breeder simply asked that I mail a signed letter from my vet. After recieving the letter from my vet the breeder still refuses to hold up thier end of the deal. x-rays have been made avialable. The breeder is now trying to turn it around on me saying that the dog "must" be living in a bad environment & that "bad hips are NOT hereditary" & that they owe me nothing. The breeder claims that they have spoken with other breeders all of which say that they shouldn't give me anything.

The facts are:
My pup lives in a great environment with plenty of room to run & play, he's fed quality foods & exercised daily.
The Pup cleary does have bad hip which are noticable even to the untrained eye on the xrays.
The breeder did guarantee the pup against bad hips or any other genetic disease.

It's been six months since the breeder was first informed. What do you guys suggest I do?

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:20 pm

you are being had, pure and simple.

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:09 pm

Tom , I assume you did not get his guarantee in writing, as you did not mention it. About the best you can do is hope that they will hold up their end of the bargain, dont think Id hold my breath. But I would make darn sure everyone I knew heard about the breeder. Good luck.SDGORD

Post by **Ayres** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:13 pm

If you're serious about going forward, lawyer up. It's probably your only option. Likely a simple letter from an attorney can grease the wheels, but it may end up having to go to court.

Sadly, this won't have been the first time I've heard about a purebred dog matter being litigated. It's a shame that matters such as this aren't headed off before they get this far. The message for others: caveat emptor, buyer beware!

I'm really surprised that the breeder would balk at a health guarantee though. They must be in denial, thinking that refusing to recognize the problem is better for their program than owning up to the guarantee and doing everything possible to prevent it in the future.

Post by **Ayres** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:18 pm

sdgord wrote:Tom , I assume you did not get his guarantee in writing, as you did not mention it.

Actually, it may not even have to be in writing. An implied or oral agreement may be enforceable as well. If the breeder has a website that says anything about a health guarantee on pups, print it out. If you know any of the other puppy buyers and they all say that they were told there was a health guarantee, that's more support. Don't count yourself out, but do beware about how much it could cost you if you decide to go further and make sure it's worth it.

Also remember, part of a health guarantee may be that you have to give the dog back to the breeder. If that's the case and you're not willing to do that, think twice about pressing further.

wgonfan · Post by **wgonfan** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:35 pm

I do have the gaurantee in writing. The neat thing is that I work for a law firm & have spoken with one of our attorneys about this matter. I clearly know what my leagal right is, & know that if it was to go to court that I would win out right. I really don't wanna do that though because it would require to travel to the breeders home state. I guess if they don't own up soon I'll just exposes them for what they are. Is there a good way to go about this? I don't want any other buyer to go through this, but I also don't want to be the jerk that goes around spewing crap if you knwo what I mean.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:48 pm

Tell them you will expose them one every website you can find and if that doesn't work you will send your lawyer.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:03 am

Well the fact about Hip Dysplsia is yes it can be made worse by bad food BUT the dog would have already had a problem for that to occur....
Were the parents OFA'd?

Not that it is a gaurantee that a pup will not come up with HD it does help to better the odds if the parents are OFA passing.

I would write a letter to the Breeder and ask them to live up to their contract...I would also get a Picture of the X ray and the OFA proof I would also post the permanant ID number of the dog and be more then willing to have a DNA done so that siad dog DNA profile is on the oFA cert which all you have to do is when you get the DNA results send that back in to OFA with the original certifcate so that is also on public record also be sure on the oFA results that you have that where it is open record so should anyone do their home work can go to the OFA website and see what their dogs are throwing www.offa.org and let them know that this all will become Public information of who the breeder was and the condition of the dog and then the lack of follow through on the breeders behalf.
Also state you would really rather not have to do this and that this is an open door invitation for them to make good on their contract

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:03 am

Was the contract wrote to just return the money of the dog if displasia was shown? Or would they replace the dog? What are the terms. The truth is alot of breeders are just in it for the money. It is sometimes hard to tell witch are witch, because of the line of crap they will feed you. Any honest person would give you your money back because you did not get what was advertised. I don' t even have a guarantee of displasia in my puppy papers but if someone called me and said they had a pup that had it I would return the money in a heart beat. Of course you would have to have a heart first. Fact is no one can guarantee displasia free hips but anyone can do something about it if it is found.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:11 am

Knine,

I tend to agree that feed can influence the hips simply by growing the pup too fast. But many vets will argue that displasia is strictly genetic. From what I have seen too fast of growth may worsen the hip problem if the hips are already suspect. Also, too much hard exercise in the formable stage can not be helpful.

This said, to be honest most all of what I said is an opinion along with so much of what is written. But to come out and state bad food can worsen the problem, makes me curious about the evidence showing that is true and what constitutes bad feed. I know everyone has an opinion about the best dog food, and that is fine, but I would be interested in seeing the results of any tests that prove any certain dog food causes the problem. I just didn't know anyone had conducted those tests and published the results.

Ezzy

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:14 am

I would give them the opportunity to pay up and then if that doesn't work I would conduct the smear compaign. I would be furious if I were in your shoes.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:04 am

I do think a letter from your lawyer would be a good wake up call. If that doesnt work get on the Peoples Court or Judge Judy. Seriously I would think you could go through small claims court if it came to that with out much expense. And I would still advertise every place you can about what happened. But do be careful about saying anything that might be liable.

Ezzy

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:55 am

If you work in a lawyer's office then I'm sure you know more about the law than we do, but I would think that if you took them to civil court and won, they would be responsible for all costs, including your legal fees and court costs. It should not cost you a dime in the end, and you would be doing other future buyers a favor. I would in no way let this go without resolution. I fear that if the bredeer is as hard headed as it sounds, a smear campaign will not faze him or her. That will be fine with them because that just means you are not bothering them anymore and they get to keep your money.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:57 am

ezzy333 wrote:Knine,

I tend to agree that feed can influence the hips simply by growing the pup too fast. But many vets will argue that displasia is strictly genetic. From what I have seen too fast of growth may worsen the hip problem if the hips are already suspect. Also, too much hard exercise in the formable stage can not be helpful.

This said, to be honest most all of what I said is an opinion along with so much of what is written. But to come out and state bad food can worsen the problem, makes me curious about the evidence showing that is true and what constitutes bad feed. I know everyone has an opinion about the best dog food, and that is fine, but I would be interested in seeing the results of any tests that prove any certain dog food causes the problem. I just didn't know anyone had conducted those tests and published the results.

Ezzy

Ezzy,

I'll check with my DVM to see if there is anything published that is available through the net or other sources. He told me that there has been a lot of studies done on HD that point to not "Bad Feed", but rather, feeding a lage breed pup HIGH PROTEIN feed rather than a Large Breed Puppy Formula. He did not discount genetics, but did state that a fast growth rate caused by the HIGH PROTEIN foods does have a significant impact on how the hips grow and can really exasperate it. His explanation is that the ball and socket are of different density bone structure and IF I'M CORRECT, the socket will grow slower than the ball which causes the ball to "pop" and wear against the smaller, slower growing socket causing damage. This is about as close as I can come to explaining what was explained to me. Hope that is clearer than mud....

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:03 am

Plain and simple: Name names. Not only is the breeder in question then held accountable but you do a service to your fellow dog owners and potential dog owners in allowing them to avoid this scammer.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:04 am

wgonfan,

Check your PM's

wgonfan · Post by **wgonfan** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:44 am

Thats for all the good info guys. I agree, the breeder needs to be exposed & I have decided to take legal action.

Thanks again

EWSIV · Post by **EWSIV** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:36 pm

I'd out the guy on every dog related bulletin board on the internet even if he rolls over for you after a lawyer intervenes. If the breeder needs legal intervention to honor a contract then he is going to do this to someone else. He has likely done it before and gotten away with it.

Will Schwarzlose

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:47 pm

Be very careful though. A lot of times those health guarantee contracts say that a dog will be 'replaced' which means that you may have to give the dog back to the breeder.

If you've formed any attachment with the dog, take that into consideration. And, if that's the case, I'd really try to settle the case on terms favorable to both sides. Play hardball and bring this to litigation and you might lose out even if you "win."

Ric Lindsey · Post by **Ric Lindsey** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:26 pm

I would treat him as if I caught him in my house robbing me,'cause that is exactly what he did to you..

Willie Hunter · Post by **Willie Hunter** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:28 pm

Any good breeder would let you keep the dog and give you another if that was your choice.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:53 pm

Willie Hunter wrote:Any good breeder would let you keep the dog and give you another if that was your choice.

Obviously this isnt a good breeder if he wont replace the dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:13 pm

Most breeders that I know want the dog back. They don't want the dog out where people see it and ask 3where it came from. Also they don't want it used for breeding whether intentional or not. You may be able to negotiate something though so you can give it a try but there is no way you can say a breeder is bad because he want the dog back.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Most breeders that I know want the dog back. They don't want the dog out where people see it and ask where it came from. Also they don't want it used for breeding whether intentional or not. You may be able to negotiate something though so you can give it a try but there is no way you can say a breeder is bad because he want the dog back.

Ezzy

I agree totally. Most breeders rightfully think, "If a customer doesn't want the dog, then I don't want them to have it." The reasons expressed above are reason enough as well.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:03 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Knine,

I tend to agree that feed can influence the hips simply by growing the pup too fast. But many vets will argue that displasia is strictly genetic. From what I have seen too fast of growth may worsen the hip problem if the hips are already suspect. Also, too much hard exercise in the formable stage can not be helpful.

Ezzy

kninebirddog wrote:Well the fact about Hip Dysplsia is yes it can be made worse by bad food BUT the dog would have already had a problem for that to occur....Were the parents OFA'd?

I did say that....that it can be made worse by bad food...or maybe i should have said food which promotes to muchs growth...BUT I Boled and underlined the important part above from my post

Ric Lindsey · Post by **Ric Lindsey** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:45 pm

Now any breeder in his right mind,would not want the dog back,Most require you to submit proof of sterilizing the dog,send back his papers, then they give you a new puppy,why would a breeder suggest that you return a dog that has become part of the family??Its worthless to all involved other than being a pet,Theres "no accidental breedings" when ones had his dog fixed,which is generaly the requirement BEFORE you get the next pup,also a real breeder would require you to get the hips OFAed before breeding..And its has nothin to do with the owner "not wanting it" its has something to do with the owner not wanting a defective dog...I am a breeder and the guarantees should be in the buyers favor,not the sellers..So guys I would suggest to avoid any breeders that put selling you a defective pup/dog in their favor..

Ric Lindsey · Post by **Ric Lindsey** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:00 pm

Cajun Point Kennels (puppy guarantee)

This guarantee applies to the described dog below and its original owner.The conditions set forth in this guarantee are designed to expose any heritable eye or hip problems BEFORE the dog is bred.Breeding the dog before two years of age will void this guarantee.This guarantee is NOT transferable and runs through the dogs' 26 Mo of age..
Conditions
Hips..the dog must be x-rayed and that x-ray MUST be submitted to O.F.A
Eyes..the dog MUST be examined by a Canine Opthamologist and their findings MUST be submitted to C.E.R.F
Hunting..this pup was bred exclusivly to obtain its parents genetic characteristics and hunting abilities.this puy must be raised and properly trained ina birdy enviroment to acheive his/her natural hunting instncts
If O.F.A or C.E.R.F find that any heritable problems exist,the dog MUST be sterilized and proof submitted to CPK.If the original owner says this dog will not hunt,the dog must be returned to CPK for evaluation.The described dog MUST fail one of the conditions set forth in this guarantee to be elgible for a replacement pup.A replacement pup will be offered to the original owner of equal or better breeding.Shipping charges if any are the responsibility of the original owner... Just an example for you guys...sig of seller.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:42 am

Ric,

That is exactly the kind of quarantee that would turn me off from buying. When I see contracts like that I know I am just renting the pup and still have to do everything you want instead of me. I am not going to have a dog tested for HD unless I am going to breed the dog or it is showing signs of a problem. The other test you mention the same way.

When I spend the kind of money it costs to buy a well bred pup, I consider it mine. You as a breeder did your part breeding and caring for it and trying to find good homes for them but when it is writen in the contract that I have to hunt the dog or have different test run then I want no part of it.

Contracts like that are written to protect and advance the breeders interest and not the new owner. The contracts I see most often says the pup is quaranteed against health defects for 30 months and if something happens during that time the pup will be replaced or the money returned or something simular. That is sufficient to protect me as a buyer. The pup is now mine to do with as I see fit.

I've never seen it written in a marrage contract that you have to do certain things or you have to give the spouse back to the parents. I agree it might be suggested though! :shock:

Ezzy

Ric Lindsey · Post by **Ric Lindsey** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:50 am

Eezy......you've lost me here,my guarantee is to protect the buyer,If the buyer says it has a defect,as a breeder I want to see proof..The guarantee does'nt anywhere say you have to do anything.Breed the heck out of it,but if it comes up with bad hips say at 48 mos,its your doggy,cause an O.F.A exam would have told you that at 24 mos.You are not required to ever hunt him,but if you say he wont hunt? I want to see that too.. You cant prove the dog has any genetic defects without doing the test,Im not replacing a pup because he limps with a thorn in his paw.The entire guarantee is for the buyer,there is no way I can ever benifit from it what so ever..Im sure the breeders you mentioned want proof of a genetic defect,not just your speculation of what it might have..That would be a great contract for a bride though..

Willie Hunter · Post by **Willie Hunter** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:52 pm

Ric,

I would have absolutely no problem with your guarantee. I appears to cover both parties.

How those pups doing?

Ric Lindsey · Post by **Ric Lindsey** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:18 pm

Willie,the pups are doing great,eyes open,yelping at me with attitudes

Im amazed that ezzy thinks I give a rental pup,Ive took the shaft from breeders before.I designed my guarantee for the buyers benifit,I work for my money and would take it very very personal if I get screwed from a breeder..I would never ask for a pup back,I did take back a male from a guy that said he just did'nt like the dogs personality.If he aint happy,I aint happy either....

Willie Hunter · Post by **Willie Hunter** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:26 pm

I'm not real clear on why Ezzy has the heartburn either, must just be a misunderstanding in what was read.

Glad to hear your pups are doing well, looking forward to seeing the Nevada pup. She will have a good life hunting chukar with a great family.

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Bad breeder! Bad! - What to do when breeders go bad?

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