Wesslpointer-The Future of Dogs

PointingQuail · Post by **PointingQuail** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:45 pm

I thought I had at least heard of all the "Gundog Breeds". Has anybody heard of one of these Wesslpointers. I'm skeptical about this like most new things. Sorry if this has been discussed before, but the site has some nice pics of these guys in action.

http://www.wesslpointer.com/

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:51 pm

If I had a dollar for everyone that breeded a mutt...

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:29 pm

Looks like the oops liter of GSP x Lab puppies I saw at the hunt club in Freeport Il last year. what a Joke

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:05 pm

Before this thread gets out of hand, lets keep two things in mind.......

First, this is 1 guy with a website. William Wessels and his breeding practices have been around for a few years. To my knowledge, the idea has gone absolutely no where. There are hundreds of other oddballs in the hunting dog world doing odd things; accept it and move on.

Second, in reference to the "mutt" charges, it's the old "those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", as virtually every gun dog breed was developed by mixing existing breeds, or was augmented by the infusing of other breeds into existing breeds, often to the dismay of fanciers of existing breeds who insisted that new breeds didn't need to be developed or augmented.

There's a handful of hunting guides in South Dakota who were looking for flushing dogs that could sweep across the a field in front of a line of 4-8+ guns, and work at a pretty good clip. They found that traditional labs were not as fast and athletic as needed, and springers just didn't have the DNA to punch out that far. They had a need that existing sporting breeds didn't fill so they started crossing Labs and Pointers. What they got were very athletic, slim build flushing dogs that could cover a far amount of ground and had the stamina to work at a good clip, but were still good retrievers. Now they didn't put a fancy name on these dogs and try to spin it as a new breed, but I can't look down on them for doing what they did. They had a need that existing breeds couldn't fill, so they crossed two breeds together. That's kinda the story of much of the development of gun dogs.

I'd rather have guys like Wessel doing what he is than the guys of the past who snuck a ringer in from another breed and forged the papers. At least Wessel's being honest about what he's doing.

FWIW,
Dave

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:19 pm

With keeping with this honesty theme, what three dogs is he crossing. I looked a couple times and didn't see, did I miss it?

highlander · Post by **highlander** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:29 pm

I think I read somewhere this guy took a pointing lab and crossed with an english pointer. Then he backcrossed those dogs with solid colored GSPs the past several years to arrive at this dog.....

solon · Post by **solon** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:59 am

The story that is circulating on the web and is based on some who have had conversations with Mr. Wessel is that he crossed lab with pointer and then bred back to solid colored GSPs. I had an e-mail from him where he said he is on his 6th generation of this breeding.

I could only find one Wesslepointer dog tested in VHFD in 2008 and it did not test very well.

These are nice looking athletic dogs but they need to show more testing results before folks will get much interest in them. I prefer long tailed pooches myself, but if his goal is to put a lot of point in a lab like dog with a lab like coat, he seems to have a good start on it.

Someone said the pups sell for $500. He is going to set up some franchises ? to market these pups. He seems to be a bit secretive about what he did and I don't find that to be a confidence building approach.

Solon

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:31 am

Never seen one perform (which would be a must before i bought one)...but they look like a nice dog..if i saw one on some birds and they worked well id give it a try

.....ruth

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:58 am

This is about exclusivity and money...and nothing more. We have seen VC from Pointers to Spinone...the idea that that there aren't breeds that do all this work and do it well and have been proven to do it for decades...is ludicrous.

The implied failures or deficiencies of other breeds is a fabrication...you can find many types/temperaments withing all the proven breeds ... and with all the abilities for over 50 generations.

P. T. Barnum lives!!!!

Modi · Post by **Modi** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:34 am

I'm with Dave. Who is this hurting? If the guy wants to start a new breed and other people want to hunt with them, whether they call it a new breed or a mutt, who cares? As long as he is being honest about it and the dogs are well cared for, and people enjoy hunting over them, what difference does the breed make?

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:56 am

The power of marketing. Perception is reality. It makes some people believe Chevy is as good a truck as Ford.
Are his dogs breeding true? Does he do health testing?. How do the dogs hunt?
They do look impressive.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:31 am

Dave Quindt wrote: in reference to the "mutt" charges, it's the old "those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", as virtually every gun dog breed was developed by mixing existing breeds, or was augmented by the infusing of other breeds into existing breeds, often to the dismay of fanciers of existing breeds who insisted that new breeds didn't need to be developed or augmented.

...They had a need that existing breeds couldn't fill, so they crossed two breeds together. That's kinda the story of much of the development of gun dogs.

I'd rather have guys like Wessel doing what he is than the guys of the past who snuck a ringer in from another breed and forged the papers. At least Wessel's being honest about what he's doing.
FWIW,
Dave

Nailed it, Dave.

Without efforts in the beginning like this: http://www.wesslpointer.com/

"Wesslpointer"

We'd never see dogs like these:

PP

DD

Unless, of course, you consider the Pudelpointer, the DD, and the the German Wirehaired Pointer "mutts." :roll:

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:25 am

solon wrote:I had an e-mail from him where he said he is on his 6th generation of this breeding.

I could only find one Wesslepointer dog tested in VHFD in 2008 and it did not test very well.

These are nice looking athletic dogs but they need to show more testing results before folks will get much interest in them. I prefer long tailed pooches myself, but if his goal is to put a lot of point in a lab like dog with a lab like coat, he seems to have a good start on it.

Someone said the pups sell for $500. He is going to set up some franchises ? to market these pups. He seems to be a bit secretive about what he did and I don't find that to be a confidence building approach.

Solon

That's good information right there Solon. If the dog's aren't testing well, it's hard to make the case that he's improving on any of the breeds he's combining.

I completely agree that transparency of the backgrounds of the dogs he's using is the only way to go as well. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by keeping "secrets."

Any responsible breeder is right upfront with lines they've used, and results the dogs get in tests and trials. Indeed, it's the "tests and trials" data that draws me to breeders, most often. For example, there is a PP breeder in the Northwest that only breeds dogs if they've met NAVHDA "Utility" criteria. Guess what? His pups hunt - and most of them pass NAVDHA natural ability before they are a year old.

I support the "efforts" at innovation, but the results have to show improvement over what already exists, otherwise - let the "mutt" insults fly, I guess.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:34 am

How many of you would recommend to a friend that it is a smart idea to spend $500 on a dog with a hidden pedigree? A good website doesn't make a good dog. Not giving any background to me is not honesty but deception.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:47 am

nikegundog wrote:How many of you would recommend to a friend that it is a smart idea to spend $500 on a dog with a hidden pedigree? A good website doesn't make a good dog. Not giving any background to me is not honesty but deception.

Have to say, after looking more at the website, I agree. The breeder never does tell you what the dogs ARE. He only tells you what the dog's are not: "There's NO Griffon, Wirehaired, Drathaar or Pudel in a "WESSL""

He say's "we proudly support the VHDF" but show's no data that his dogs even participate in it.

Have to call BS on the Wesslepointer. I don't have a problem with someone making an attempt toward improvement, but they dang well better be upfront about how they are doing it.

Anyone ever seen one hunt?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:52 am

Problem with creating a new breed here nowadays (and he'd have to breed for a couple human lifetimes) is in alot of cases you cannot cull like used to be done...in alot of states its illegal.

While i could care less what the fella breeds, if people buy them and enjoy them then more power to him.

I really don't see this being takin to the level of a new breed. Is he breeding his crossed individuals or is he constantly making the cross and selling the offspring?
Would be interesting if someone close by visited him and got to see the pups and listen to his reasoning/methods.

To me his website looks like cute puppies and marketing and very little meat (so to speak) ie short on info and long on claims.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:57 am

birddog1968 wrote:Would be interesting if someone close by visited him and got to see the pups and listen to his reasoning/methods.

I agree. And if he's been doing this for 6 generations - he should have alot of performance, temperament, and health data to show.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:00 am

Where are the achievements of the parents? Against what other dogs have they competed....been evaluated?

Stylish Upland Points, Intelligent Game Finesse, Bold Water Entries, Soft Mouth Retrieves, Affectionate Family Companions. The Wesselpointer is at home on the prairies, woodlands, duck marshes, as well as the back yard. The great willing disposition brings all the other traits into BALANCE. An American Versatile with a temperament, head, coat

and "tail" above the rest. The Wesslpointer is a versatile gun dog in balance with the tasks at hand. Pointing is as important as retrieving. Tracking is as important as finding and retrieving. Searching on land is as important as on water. A Wesslpointer handles game with a soft mouth that delivers game "fit for the table". The range of the search, equal to the terrain, but not past the handlers wishes.

So just substitute the names DK, GSP, GWP, DD, SM, DL, etc for Wesselpointer and it would be just as true. The real selling points are "made in America" (out of foreign imported parts ...so what's new??) and they come in all solid colors (can I get blue???).

Another Labradoodle....designer dog for those that have to be different..."look at me, I'm special!!!". Who cares, anyone that would rather have a Wessel than a GSP (or half a dozen other breeds with 100 yrs+ of proven versatile history) isn't buying a working dog...they're buying a bauble to set them apart from the "normal masses".

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:14 am

nikegundog wrote: A good website doesn't make a good dog.

And that appears to be all that there is; a quirky guy with a website, with no indications that he's actively breeding on a regular basis.

Guys like him LOVE threads like these, because they generate site traffic and google search results. We play into their hands by rehashing this stuff over and over. There's a certain hunting dog culture that's attracted to anti-establishment ideas like these. All these threads do is help connect puppy seller and buyer.

Folks gotta learn that when they find kooky people and ideas on the internet, with no indications that their kooky ideas have gained any traction, that the best thing to do is to have a laugh and move on.

JMO,
Dave

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:38 am

First off I want to state that I am a die hard EP man. Secondly I want to state that I hope guys like this never stop trying. I don't believe that even with the diversity and number of breeds we have today that there is not a niche out there to fill or that we are at the be all and end all of bird dogs with what breeds we have now or even that there is no room for more breeds. That being said I will once again state that I am a die hard EP man and probably will never own any other breed. I hope that people like him continue to try to develop new breeds by breeding generation after generation of crosses and I hope they succeed and are accepted by the AKC and eventually maybe even the FDSB.

As far as testing goes perhaps part of the problem are the testing rules and regulations are a bit jaded toward other breeds? I am not positive of this as I do not test or trial. I only breed, raise, train, and hunt dogs out here in the Oklahoma panhandle. But I do know from hearing some of you guys that do test and trial talk that certain breeds do not fare well in the trial and testing venues of certain other breeds due to the characteristics of the breed of dog themselves. They just were not developed for that type of venue I believe is what is stated most of the time. I am sure if this gentleman developed his own testing or trial venue then some of our dogs may not fare so well in it. It may even give his breed a chance to excel far above our chosen breeds and get off the ground. JMO

solon · Post by **solon** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:47 am

birddog1968 wrote:Problem with creating a new breed here nowadays (and he'd have to breed for a couple human lifetimes) is in alot of cases you cannot cull like used to be done...in alot of states its illegal.

"a couple human lifetimes" This is clearly not true. Just read this story and see if you still believe that:

http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html

Solon

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:08 pm

Thanks, I will read that. I was thinking more about the time invested in the current breeds we have to display their excellence.

The beauty of the whole Wessel thing is if you don't like em, think its BS or another mutt, you can walk away and leave them for someone else to enjoy. Its no skin off anyone to let this fella do what he wants

answer me one question solon, is this article more about changing a trait or creating an entirely new breed?

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:09 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:First off I want to state that I am a die hard EP man. Secondly I want to state that I hope guys like this never stop trying. I don't believe that even with the diversity and number of breeds we have today that there is not a niche out there to fill or that we are at the be all and end all of bird dogs with what breeds we have now or even that there is no room for more breeds. That being said I will once again state that I am a die hard EP man and probably will never own any other breed. I hope that people like him continue to try to develop new breeds by breeding generation after generation of crosses and I hope they succeed and are accepted by the AKC and eventually maybe even the FDSB.

As far as testing goes perhaps part of the problem are the testing rules and regulations are a bit jaded toward other breeds? I am not positive of this as I do not test or trial. I only breed, raise, train, and hunt dogs out here in the Oklahoma panhandle. But I do know from hearing some of you guys that do test and trial talk that certain breeds do not fare well in the trial and testing venues of certain other breeds due to the characteristics of the breed of dog themselves. They just were not developed for that type of venue I believe is what is stated most of the time. I am sure if this gentleman developed his own testing or trial venue then some of our dogs may not fare so well in it. It may even give his breed a chance to excel far above our chosen breeds and get off the ground. JMO

I'm mostly with you, tommy, certainly so on efforts to add to or improve hunting breeds. The thing I don't like about the Wessle is all of the high claims/marketing hype the breeder makes without backing it up. I hate it when dogs are marketed similar to the "newest greatest cleaning product" or whatever. There are a couple of Llew breeders down south who make all these outlandish claims about the "gentleman's hunting dog" that needs no training, blah blah blah. IMO those guys give responsible breeders a bad name.

cody · Post by **cody** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:38 pm

That was a very interesting read. Thanks Solon

solon · Post by **solon** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:05 pm

birddog1968 wrote:answer me one question solon, is this article more about changing a trait or creating an entirely new breed?

The link is to a series of articles about the effort to introduce a natural bob tail to the Boxer, in part to circumvent the laws against docking that are appearing in some countries. The authors crossed a Corgi with a inherited bob tail with a boxer and then back crossed to boxer and kept selecting for bob tails. It took only 4 to 5 generations to return to the boxer type. The genetic mutation that causes bob tails in many of the breeds, but not all, has been identified and it is dominent and lethal to embryos in the homozygous state.
See: http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/conten ... 6.full.pdf
Therefore if two bob tail dogs are mated, the probability is 0.25 that the fetus will perish in utero. Probably not a great trait to bring in, because even the heterozygous state may have some deleterious side effects.

My point for mentioning it is how fast and successful their efforts were to bring the cross bred dogs back to type despite the dis-simularity of the two in the original cross.

There is a recent study on the relatively small number of genes that are needed to create the variation that one sees among the many breeds of dogs. I am not sure I can find that study, I will take a look.

Solon

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:50 pm

solon wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:answer me one question solon, is this article more about changing a trait or creating an entirely new breed?
The authors crossed a Corgi with a inherited bob tail with a boxer and then back crossed to boxer and kept selecting for bob tails. It took only 4 to 5 generations to return to the boxer type.
My point for mentioning it is how fast and successful their efforts were to bring the cross bred dogs back to type despite the dis-simularity of the two in the original cross.
There is a recent study on the relatively small number of genes that are needed to create the variation that one sees among the many breeds of dogs. I am not sure I can find that study, I will take a look.

Solon

Your post is a little misleading as it appears that you imply that they have been successful and the short tailed boxers are breeding true to type and have natural bob tails in 4 to 5 and this is not at all the case. Dogs are being produced with bob, 3/4, and 1/2 tails etc.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:27 pm

answer me one question solon, is this article more about changing a trait or creating an entirely new breed?

The PR strongly hints that the "Wessel" is offering the hunter a better option....wouldn't expect a "me five" approach, would ya...."ANOTHER VERSATILE DOG---NoW YOU HAVE 11 BREEDS TO CHOSE FROM!!!" That's what makes this laughable....whoever bites the hook is the sucker for the come on...and there are plenty of them out there that will believe that there's a shortcut to a great dog. Years back there used to be a guy that sold GWPs out west (got kicked out of the VDD) and he graded his pups....and for $2000, he would send you the "supreme" pup, only a few of these a year, very rare, exclusive...and he could pick them out at 8 weeks!!! Or the guy that would sell you a Pointing Lab....$1000 for a 3rd generation PL and $3000 for a 6th generation PL!!! because watching paint dry for $3K was a greater thrill!!!

Whatever floats your boat...this is America, and separating folks from their money is the game....that's what Labradoodles, Cockapoos, and Great Shitz are all about. They get $2000 for Labradoodles in my neck of the woods.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:35 pm

Don't see what your rant has to do with my comment , but hope ya feel better.

Best part is you don't have to buy one and neither do I.....

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:48 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Would be interesting if someone close by visited him and got to see the pups and listen to his reasoning/methods.

I agree. And if he's been doing this for 6 generations - he should have alot of performance, temperament, and health data to show.

Don't think so! It basically takes seven generations to just get the characteristics set to where they will breed true. Sounds like he is doing everything right to start a new breed. I personally don't see the need for it but have no idea what he is really trying to develop. And I can think of a thousand things more important than second guessing someone I know nothing about and have little interest in what he is developing.

It just isn't worth my time,

Ezzy

solon · Post by **solon** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:59 pm

ACooper wrote:
solon wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:answer me one question solon, is this article more about changing a trait or creating an entirely new breed?
The authors crossed a Corgi with a inherited bob tail with a boxer and then back crossed to boxer and kept selecting for bob tails. It took only 4 to 5 generations to return to the boxer type.
My point for mentioning it is how fast and successful their efforts were to bring the cross bred dogs back to type despite the dis-simularity of the two in the original cross.
There is a recent study on the relatively small number of genes that are needed to create the variation that one sees among the many breeds of dogs. I am not sure I can find that study, I will take a look.

Solon
Your post is a little misleading as it appears that you imply that they have been successful and the short tailed boxers are breeding true to type and have natural bob tails in 4 to 5 and this is not at all the case. Dogs are being produced with bob, 3/4, and 1/2 tails etc.

No intent to mislead about the variable penetrance of the mutation. The point I was trying to make is that it took only about 4 generations to breed out the influence of the Corgi on the boxer conformation. The bob tail phenotype is known to vary in its effects in the breeds it is normally found in.

Solon

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:27 pm

solon wrote: The point I was trying to make is that it took only about 4 generations to breed out the influence of the Corgi on the boxer conformation. The bob tail phenotype is known to vary in its effects in the breeds it is normally found in.

Solon

Very interesting that with the right combinations of genes that phenotype could be changed so quickly.

ezzy333 wrote: I can think of a thousand things more important than second guessing someone I know nothing about and have little interest in what he is developing.

It just isn't worth my time,

Ezzy

Thanks for stopping by anyway, Ezzy!

I find the history of dog breeds, traits and characteristics fascinating. I'm happy these threads come along every now and then. It makes me wonder what some of the originators of the established breeds must have dealt with in their quest to improve their breeds. They must have had similar struggles, and similar skepticism and resistance from the zeitgeist in dog breeding at the time. The same phenomenon happens in scientific developments - resistance from the established community until a new way of seeing data takes hold.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:44 pm

I don't think they did. There probably was some but there wasn't any way to spread it around so that everybody knew what everybody else was thinking.How many of you even knew about a Boykin, or any of the other American breeds that are now recognized. The Internet where you can criticize anything or anybody without ever seeing them face to face has changed a whole lot of things and not always for the better.

PointingQuail · Post by **PointingQuail** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:54 pm

In the 1300's everyone thought the world was flat... and in 2011 everyone thought the Wesslpointer was a joke...

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:58 pm

PointingQuail wrote:In the 1300's everyone thought the world was flat... and in 2011 everyone thought the Wesslpointer was a joke...

Nothing wrong with that except we spend all night telling everyone how we feel and accomplish nothing.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:01 pm

Yes, and lets not forget about the other 300 hybrid breeds that are the next great thing.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:10 pm

nikegundog wrote:Yes, and lets not forget about the other 300 hybrid breeds that are the next great thing.

Hybrids are cross between 2 or 4 different breeds and are not a breed themselves. You have to go well beyond that to create a breed.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:45 pm

Hybrids are cross between 2 or 4 different breeds and are not a breed themselves. You have to go well beyond that to create a breed.

Ezzy, without ever seeing a pedigree how do you know what he's creating, his web page mentions his breed is a three dog cross, but nobody knows when everything is a secret. Until additional information is provided I'll stick with calling it a hybrid.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:25 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Hybrids are cross between 2 or 4 different breeds and are not a breed themselves. You have to go well beyond that to create a breed.
Ezzy, without ever seeing a pedigree how do you know what he's creating, his web page mentions his breed is a three dog cross, but nobody knows when everything is a secret. Until additional information is provided I'll stick with calling it a hybrid.

OK good enough. If they are hybreds then we have wasted the whole night calling them a new breed. Guess we can let it go at that.

Ezzy

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:28 am

He wa'n't no common dog, he wa'n't no mongrel; he was a composite. A composite dog is a dog that is made up of all the valuable qualities that's in the dog breed — kind of a syndicate; and a mongrel is made up of all riffraff that's left over.

- Mark Twain

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:34 am

ezzy333 wrote:
AzDoggin wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Would be interesting if someone close by visited him and got to see the pups and listen to his reasoning/methods.

I agree. And if he's been doing this for 6 generations - he should have alot of performance, temperament, and health data to show.

Don't think so! It basically takes seven generations to just get the characteristics set to where they will breed true. Sounds like he is doing everything right to start a new breed. I personally don't see the need for it but have no idea what he is really trying to develop. And I can think of a thousand things more important than second guessing someone I know nothing about and have little interest in what he is developing.

It just isn't worth my time,

Ezzy

Ezzy, however many generations it takes, and there seems to be some debate on that point, why not test/trial the dogs along the way so you know for a fact you are "doing everything right to start a new breed" as you stated?

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:12 am

Ezzy, however many generations it takes, and there seems to be some debate on that point, why not test/trial the dogs along the way so you know for a fact you are "doing everything right to start a new breed" as you stated?

I believe you can petition one or more of the various registries for some kind of conditional status....then the dogs could participate in some kind of testing/competitive venue....of course, he'd most likely have to present all his breeding data :roll:

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:21 am

JKP wrote:
Ezzy, however many generations it takes, and there seems to be some debate on that point, why not test/trial the dogs along the way so you know for a fact you are "doing everything right to start a new breed" as you stated?
I believe you can petition one or more of the various registries for some kind of conditional status....then the dogs could participate in some kind of testing/competitive venue....of course, he'd most likely have to present all his breeding data :roll:

AAhhh, of course. Good points.

IDChukarguy · Post by **IDChukarguy** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:45 pm

I live near Bill Wessels and met him about 10 years ago. I don't want to offend any dog breeders/trainers, but he was like many in the business; really good with dogs and not very people-savvy. I hunted a few times with a friend whose dog he trained, and the dog was excellent.

If you follow this link, he describes dogs he used to develop his breed:http://www.wesslpointer.com/book1.htm. When I met him years ago he was just starting his breeding program and did not yet have a name for his "breed." He used Elhew pointers and several different lines of GSPs. He states that the dogs are only 1/4 lab.

Bill describes the shortcomings of GSPs pretty well IMO; I think his intent to develop the perfect breed is genuine. He has advertised his dogs locally for many years, but I have not seen the breed name until recently. Certainly there are some people in Idaho with his dogs who could provide us with a report. One of these days I will venture out to his place to see his dogs in action and report back.

allaroundgoodguide · Post by **allaroundgoodguide** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:37 pm

As a retired upland hunting guide, I’ve always thought a cross between a pointing lab and English and/or versatile pointer would make my job easier and bring more birds to bag. One reason I haven’t tried this yet, is I can’t find a top notch breeder that would buy into this crazy concept. Another reason is, I’d probably end up with pups I wouldn’t be able to find homes for. heck, it’s hard enough to get a first pick pup without talk of creating a mutant strain. So what if Wessels dogs haven’t achieved FTC titles. My guess is… that Wesselpointers will never keep up with EP’s, and would probably be disadvantaged in a retriever trial. BTW, didn’t all versatile euro breeds come from the kind of thinking Mr. Wessles has been bold enough to try ? By the posts I’ve read on this thread, some of you guys seem too attached to the same old, same old dogma and status quo. As my Grandma Trudy (from West Virginy) used to say, “Handsome is, as Handsome does”. Anyone have an idea on how to post a pic on this luddite’s profile ?