Field trial GSPs

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:19 pm

I'm not trying to start an argument, but it seems that many FT GSPs look very similar to EPs. In fact, take away the docked tail, and they would be almost identical. Have GSPs been crossed with EPs to make them run bigger, or is this just breeding? The Roman nosed GSPs of 30 years ago seem to be almost another breed. Just curious if GSPs are DNA tested as to their lineage. If they have been crossed, it doesn't make it a bad thing. A good dog is always a good thing.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:29 pm

I think if you are wanting to know this has been discussed on this board many times and all of those you will find in the archives. Plus no one knows how many have been unless they did it themselves and They aren't going to admit if they did. So all you will get is someones opinion that is no better than yours and you still won't know a thing more than you do presently.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:47 pm

And your point is?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:48 pm

I would think that DNA analysis would be the answer. DNA doesn't lie.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:50 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:And your point is?

My point is, has it been done? I don't know what else can be taken from my post?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:17 pm

There have always been those rumors of crossbreeding about all the non-pointer breeds; not just GSP, but Brittany, V's, setters, Irish, Gordon, all of them.

I was once told there was no need to crossbreed a GSP, just dock the tail of a Miller pointer.

I have been around the sport a long time, I know some of it has always gone on, there is no doubt, but for the most part the folks are honest.

Neil

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:31 pm

Marchlewski, 1930. Long before IB or Tell set foot in North America. Thornton's dogs were used in anecdotal undocumented crosses before the Studbook was established on the breed in America.

In four generations you can make a housedog out of a fox and in eight you have permanent alteration.

And, in just seven days, they can make you a man.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:17 pm

I think the question is legitimate and i will answer...Nope they have never been outcrossed with an English Pointer.

gspguy · Post by **gspguy** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:21 pm

I'm not trying to start an argument

Yeah, sure. There are plenty of "roman nosed" trial gsp's around. Not sure what that has to do with it being a gsp. There are also field trial pointers that have roman noses too. I saw a string of cover dog/shooting dog pointers a few years ago and some could have been shorthairs if you docked their tails. They certainly don't seem to be dish-faced anymore. There's more to a GSP than a roman nose. The whole gsp is a pointer cross thing makes me laugh. To really pull that off a lot of breeders would have to cross to a lot of really good pointers and do it many times to fix the "good" pointer traits. I just don't see a conspiracy of that magnitude going on.

Check out Uodibar's Boss Man from 1971. Doesn't look too roman nosed to me.
http://www.gsp-photos.us/HOFPages/UodibarsBossMan.html

How about WagonMasters dog Spot - I see a roman nose there
http://www.gsp-photos.us/FieldPages/Wil ... eSpot.html

Check out Heidi Ho's MRT. Looks like a roman nose to me.
http://www.gsp-photos.us/FieldPages/HeideHosMRT.html

Or Desert Dutch - he's got a Roman Nose
http://www.gsp-photos.us/FieldPages/DesertDutch.html

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:22 pm

I think the question is legitimate and i will answer...Nope they have never been outcrossed with an English Pointer.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:22 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I think the question is legitimate and i will answer...Nope they have never been outcrossed with an English Pointer.

How about a Danish one?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:27 pm

They have a history of being considerably more neutral, so frankly Cajun I have my suspicions

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:33 pm

Birddogz wrote:I'm not trying to start an argument, but it seems that many FT GSPs look very similar to EPs. In fact, take away the docked tail, and they would be almost identical. Have GSPs been crossed with EPs to make them run bigger, or is this just breeding? The Roman nosed GSPs of 30 years ago seem to be almost another breed. Just curious if GSPs are DNA tested as to their lineage. If they have been crossed, it doesn't make it a bad thing. A good dog is always a good thing.

Anyone who says/believes that some Gsps have not been cross bred with pointers in the fairly recent past (and possibly current) is in denial, and choosing to ignore the obvious.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:36 pm

ACooper wrote:
Birddogz wrote:I'm not trying to start an argument, but it seems that many FT GSPs look very similar to EPs. In fact, take away the docked tail, and they would be almost identical. Have GSPs been crossed with EPs to make them run bigger, or is this just breeding? The Roman nosed GSPs of 30 years ago seem to be almost another breed. Just curious if GSPs are DNA tested as to their lineage. If they have been crossed, it doesn't make it a bad thing. A good dog is always a good thing.

Anyone who says/believes that some Gsps have not been crossed to pointers in the fairly recent past (and possibly current) is in denial, and choosing to ignore the obvious.

I've always kind of wondered about Joe Shadow.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:38 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ACooper wrote:
Birddogz wrote:I'm not trying to start an argument, but it seems that many FT GSPs look very similar to EPs. In fact, take away the docked tail, and they would be almost identical. Have GSPs been crossed with EPs to make them run bigger, or is this just breeding? The Roman nosed GSPs of 30 years ago seem to be almost another breed. Just curious if GSPs are DNA tested as to their lineage. If they have been crossed, it doesn't make it a bad thing. A good dog is always a good thing.

Anyone who says/believes that some Gsps have not been crossed to pointers in the fairly recent past (and possibly current) is in denial, and choosing to ignore the obvious.

I've always kind of wondered about Joe Shadow.

Ha ha you know what I meant!

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:40 pm

Who Cares? They are what they are.How much cross breeding do you think was done for Years to come up with all the breeds there are today? Mucho Mucho.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:42 pm

Anyone who says/believes that some Gsps have not been crossed to pointers in the fairly recent past (and possibly current) is in denial, and choosing to ignore the obvious.

How dare you sir, this would be to suggest that someone started a post for sake of argument or that they were not forthright with their agenda. This is how duels began.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:42 pm

Birddogz you got it all wrong it's those unscrupulous pointer guys importing those undocked Shortneys from europe and passin um off as English pointers

They should be ashamed

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:44 pm

...ohhhh and by the way at 55 minutes today i wished my britt had more or some pointer in him...

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:47 pm

ACooper wrote:Ha ha you know what I meant!

Awsum!

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:47 pm

Chukar12 wrote:...ohhhh and by the way at 55 minutes today i wished my britt had more or some pointer in him...

Yep I always thought they crossed to much setter in most of those american brits,...Try crossing in more beans blaze

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:16 pm

If the OP would like a structural analysis of pointers, German shorthaired pointers and their crosses on a comparitive basis, it can be found in Jackie Isabell's Genetics: An Introduction For Dog Breeders, based on the Marchlewski experiments.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:45 am

If they crossesd in a lot of pointer blood they sure did a good job of covering up that front end with the elbows pointing east and west that most of the pointers have.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:22 am

I wonder what the Field Trial Pointers crossed with to get rid of the upturned nose? Maybe GSP's?

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:13 am

Is DNA required when you FT?....ruth

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:46 am

GUNDOGS wrote:Is DNA required when you FT?....ruth

In AKC, you'll need it to enter a championship. In AF, you'll need it if you win a championship. For weekend trials, no.

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:54 am

I got my first GSP 30 years ago and it was Dee Dee's Jackson X Big Oak Bumper and looking at what I have today they look very much the same. I have heard stories of pointers breed into GSPs and have seen a litter with lemons(not my litter) but I think this is not what 99% of the GSP breeders have done. They have continue to look to make the field GSP better and better. I don't want a 75lbs shorthair that can't get out of it's own way and plods along.

Is there a marker in GSPs that will ID the breed, last I heard there was not one discovered yet? This may have changed with science improving every day.

I look in American Field and see Pointers with ticking and heads that look like a GSPs, have GSPs been breed into Pointer lines to imprve the Pointer breed?

Look at Thorton's dogs they were huge. Look at Irish Setters from the 60's and 70's and the IS of today they look nothing like they did.

Breeds of dogs change and improve over the years and this is the job of those who have breed the right dogs and bitchs to improve the breed and if they change a little in how they look it is a matter of improving the form of function.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 am

What I was curious about was whether the GSP has arrived at this similar look through selective breeding of other GSPs or a little help from the EP. I notice when I look at Sharpshooter dogs that they look like a traditional GSP. They are a NAVHDA testing kennel, and don't need the range in their dogs as much as say a guy who wants to run AA Horseback FTs. My curiosity is whether the function of running that far and hard designs a dog to eventually look similar to another breed that does the same. Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:30 am

Birddogz wrote: Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?

You are a self-professed intelligent individual so why question the obvious?
They all started at the same place genetically.
Form follows function.
Why do the competitive EP's not look like the dogs of the Show Ring?

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:34 am

slistoe wrote:
Birddogz wrote: Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?
You are a self-professed intelligent individual so why question the obvious?
They all started at the same place genetically.
Form follows function.
Why do the competitive EP's not look like the dogs of the Show Ring?

Because they are bred to a different standard.

Ezzy

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:42 am

This is imposable to answer, both breeds have changed over the years just look at the pointers of 50 years ago and tell me that they look the same as today. Personally I believe that a lot of pointer people have bred to GSPs and I am sure the reverse is true, after all shorthairs do bring a lot to the table. One think I do know for certain is that neither pointers or shorthairs where bred for a specific look.

Birddogz I don’t know where you are headed with this, but you still do NOT understand what range is and why it’s so important to breed for it. :roll:

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:55 am

This argument comes down to this:

Do some folks cheat and take the "easy" path to success? Of course.

Do some folks play by the rules, do it right and also find success? Of course.

There are plenty of shorthairs that have similarities to pointers because those similarities are functional ones. For that matter there are pointers that have similarities to shorthairs for precisely the same reason.

One of the most successful kennels of shooting dog pointers, has several dogs with virtually solid liver heads. One is in the Field Trial Hall of Fame. Does that mean the dog was crossed with GSP's? I can tell you with some certainty that is NOT the case.

These things come up because: 1)folks are unhappy with the direction they perceive that this breed or that is going, 2) folks that want to buy the same exact dog that they purchased twenty or more years ago cannot find that exact same type of dog in their immediate area and 3) folks that are not winning in competitions don't want to admit that the fault may actually lie in their abilities as trainers and handlers.

Folks get all exercised about tricolor pointers. I had one of those over forty years ago and I know it wasn't a crossbreed because I did the breeding and knew the lineage of the sire and dam for the two preceding generations.

I have seen competitive all age shorthairs in competition. I have also seen competitive horseback shorthair Gun Dogs and Senior and Master hunter dogs. They may look similar in appearance, but they are most definitely different animals in most cases.

RayG

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:58 am

Interesting discussion. I don't see as much difference in the domestic GSPs as I do between the DK (original German) and many GSPs. This has to be the influence of the hunting needs here and the overriding influence of FT. PLEASE...I AM NOT SLAMMING FIELD TRIALING!!! However, IMO, field trialing leads all breeds to a certain physical type---45-55lb, racier build, small to medium boned, white preferred (or lighter colored), etc. Breeds lose some of their individual characteristics..the sport tends to "Homogenize" the breeds, especially if you are going to compete at the top levels. There has been interbreeding but I think that is probably over stated...you can easily breed back to the original pointer type if desired..after all that is the physical type that is best suited for the sport. You will always have people for whom a breed means nothing...winning is everything....sneaking a Pointer into the mix is just a way to win.

Birddogz I don’t know where you are headed with this, but you still do NOT understand what range is and why it’s so important to breed for it.

I have a bit of a problem with this statement....how much?? 200yds, 500yds, a mile?? I see too many dogs that are out of kilter....independence is way out of balance with the dogs natural desire to maintain contact and work for the gun. I understand that dogs can show cooperation 1/2 mile in front of the horse but I bet not 1% of hunters in the country want or need that dog. We have a tendency to insist that everyone should want that big running dog or that folks are too dumb or too inexperienced to know that that's the dog they should want. I see too many folks struggling with tough, independent dogs (from all kinds of backgrounds...so don't get me wrong) ... such that range doesn't seem to be the major concern.

Maybe we shouldn't have breeds....call all dogs by their type and origins....GSP becomes the "German Pointer(EP-Foxhound-Prussian Pointer mix)" ...the GWP becomes the "Pointer, Wirehair(DK-Griffon-Stichelhaar-PudelPointer mix)...etc, etc, allow crossbreeding and kick out people who don't tell the truth. Isn't that the way it all started??

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:29 am

ezzy333 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Birddogz wrote: Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?
You are a self-professed intelligent individual so why question the obvious?
They all started at the same place genetically.
Form follows function.
Why do the competitive EP's not look like the dogs of the Show Ring?
Because they are bred to a different standard.

Ezzy

Thanks for answering the obvious.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:49 am

Ok we all know it has been done,pointers have been crossed into just about all the pointing breeds to a certain extint.Here is a little something to think about.Some would have us believe that it has been done so much that the so called American GSP is no longer a true GSP.We all have heard of the fatal skin disease (Lupoid Dermatosis) that is breed specific to the GSP breed.
If this crossbreeding has been done as much as some want us to think WHY hasn't LD shown up in the Pointer breed??
HMMMMMM!

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:52 am

slistoe wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
slistoe wrote: Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?
You are a self-professed intelligent individual so why question the obvious?
They all started at the same place genetically.
Form follows function.
Why do the competitive EP's not look like the dogs of the Show Ring?
Because they are bred to a different standard.

Ezzy

Thanks for answering the obvious.[/quote]
Thanks for asking the obvious. Those are the only questions I'm good on.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:14 am

ezzy333 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Because they are bred to a different standard.

Ezzy

slistoe wrote:Thanks for answering the obvious.
Thanks for asking the obvious. Those are the only questions I'm good on.

Ezzy

Glad I could help you. Now if we can figure out how to help Birddogz.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:50 am

JKP wrote:Interesting discussion. I don't see as much difference in the domestic GSPs as I do between the DK (original German) and many GSPs. This has to be the influence of the hunting needs here and the overriding influence of FT. PLEASE...I AM NOT SLAMMING FIELD TRIALING!!! However, IMO, field trialing leads all breeds to a certain physical type---45-55lb, racier build, small to medium boned, white preferred (or lighter colored), etc. Breeds lose some of their individual characteristics..the sport tends to "Homogenize" the breeds, especially if you are going to compete at the top levels. There has been interbreeding but I think that is probably over stated...you can easily breed back to the original pointer type if desired..after all that is the physical type that is best suited for the sport. You will always have people for whom a breed means nothing...winning is everything....sneaking a Pointer into the mix is just a way to win.

Birddogz I don’t know where you are headed with this, but you still do NOT understand what range is and why it’s so important to breed for it.
I have a bit of a problem with this statement....how much?? 200yds, 500yds, a mile?? I see too many dogs that are out of kilter....independence is way out of balance with the dogs natural desire to maintain contact and work for the gun. I understand that dogs can show cooperation 1/2 mile in front of the horse but I bet not 1% of hunters in the country want or need that dog. We have a tendency to insist that everyone should want that big running dog or that folks are too dumb or too inexperienced to know that that's the dog they should want. I see too many folks struggling with tough, independent dogs (from all kinds of backgrounds...so don't get me wrong) ... such that range doesn't seem to be the major concern.

Maybe we shouldn't have breeds....call all dogs by their type and origins....GSP becomes the "German Pointer(EP-Foxhound-Prussian Pointer mix)" ...the GWP becomes the "Pointer, Wirehair(DK-Griffon-Stichelhaar-PudelPointer mix)...etc, etc, allow crossbreeding and kick out people who don't tell the truth. Isn't that the way it all started??

Good post, and honest.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:54 am

I asked a question that you have not answered. Of course animals that do similar things will have similar body structure. What about their DNA? Did people breed GSPs and EPs to arrive at what they have now? A Rhea, Ostrich, and Emu all look very similar. Their DNA is far from similar. So smart guy, what is the answer? Science, not your opinion.

regarding DNA,

In AKC, you'll need it to enter a championship. In AF, you'll need it if you win a championship. For weekend trials, no.

Birddogz, how many "GSP's" were found not to be GSP's after entering or winning a championship? Answer this question and I believe you will have an answer to yours as well.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:59 am

slistoe wrote:
Birddogz wrote: Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?
You are a self-professed intelligent individual so why question the obvious?
They all started at the same place genetically.
Form follows function.
Why do the competitive EP's not look like the dogs of the Show Ring?

The same place? Do you understand genetics at all? A GSP and EPs genetics should not be close to the same. Do you understand that animals that look similar don't necessarily share genetics? That is my question, which is it? Is it shared genetics/crossing, or not. That is the question, nothing more, nothing less.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:04 pm

I don't think they have markers that are clear enough for generations in the rears...

...and it was a good post as were many others that you don't acknowledge because they don't fit your agenda. Why don'y you just take a position instead of slopping around with backhanded comments. You should have a background that affords you considerably greater efficiency to track down the answers to these questions than most of us here, I certainly put myself in that group. Take a stand Birddogz, what is your point? You know that human beings are flawed and that there has been an infusion of EP in the major pointing breeds, why ask questions like a pool hall hustler with nothing to gain from it.

Are you dissatisfied with the current GSP's and you wish to take the breeders on directly? Say so.

Do you wish to join a crusdae and there is one in insuring that breed lines are pure for field trial winners, keeping it fair in a sense? Then say so.

If you would state a purpose up front and accept answers from experience, and quit being argumentative, I believe your questions and participation would be interesting and constructive. As it is, you will repeat history and that is why people are going to react poorly.

jstpnt1 · Post by **jstpnt1** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:05 pm

Good question, and DNA was supposed to help take care of the situation, however it's only as good as the governing body that enforces the rules. Otherwise its and exercise in futility and nothing more than a donation to the parent club. Stay tuned, there's more in the wind on this very subject........

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:08 pm

The same place? Do you understand genetics at all? A GSP and EPs genetics should not be close to the same. Do you understand that animals that look similar don't necessarily share genetics? That is my question, which is it? Is it shared genetics/crossing, or not. That is the question, nothing more, nothing less.

It is both and you know it...it is an out and out falsehood for you to say nothing more and nothing less.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:16 pm

In spite of the variety of misinformation tossed out on this one, I find myself stuck trying to get past the idea of cutting the tail off a Miller pointer to make a field trial GSP?????

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:33 pm

What I was curious about was whether the GSP has arrived at this similar look through selective breeding of other GSPs or a little help from the EP. I notice when I look at Sharpshooter dogs that they look like a traditional GSP. They are a NAVHDA testing kennel, and don't need the range in their dogs as much as say a guy who wants to run AA Horseback FTs. My curiosity is whether the function of running that far and hard designs a dog to eventually look similar to another breed that does the same. Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?

Function follows form. In order to function a certain way a dog needs to be built a certain way. When the function of a dog changes, like to win FTs, the structure needs to be altered.and dare I say mentally altered?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:52 pm

A quote from one of the larger canine DNA companies on their website...

Will DNA test results from different companies be the same?

Each company developed its test independently, so there are a number of factors that can effect the results of any particular dog. During the research phase, each company must identify a set of DNA “markers” that characterize differences from breed to breed. Then these “markers” must be characterized in a set of dogs representing the pure breeds. Not only are these markers different across companies, but the number and source of the purebred dogs are different. No company can test every purebred dog representing a breed, and every company will have developed software that is used to compare these genetic markers across breeds.

The following are some scenarios that demonstrate these differences:

Some breeds are closely related because they were developed from the crossing of older, more established breeds. For example, Boston Terriers were developed from the crossing of the English Bulldog and English White Terrier. So, depending on the company’s software, the markers established for the purebreds and the population of breeds in each company’s database, the same dog may test “Boston Terrier” with one company and “English Bulldog” with another.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:01 pm

From another...so it seems that even those who understand DNA are retiscent in proclaiming things as fact... Birddogz, who were you asking if they knew anything about genetics at all?

Can Wisdom Panel™ Insights be used for a purebred dog?

Wisdom Panel™ Insights is intended for use on dogs that are mixed-breed to help determine their breed history. The test is specifically designed to look for the combination of ancestral breeds in mixed-breed dogs. Where pure breed dogs are concerned, most often the report will simply indicate the pure strain of the breed in question. However, although our sample database covers 185+ breeds and comprises more than 8,700 samples in total, there are several cases in which pure breed dogs may not be reported as such by Wisdom Panel™ Insights test. For instance, if the breed is not or was not bred within the continental US, then we may not pick up the breed signature, as foreign lines often have very different genetic signatures. In addition, if there has been a very isolated breeding line for the pure breed, then we may not have enough coverage of that breed's gene pool to identify the dog as purebred.

For these reasons, we do not advertise or recommend the use of Wisdom Panel™ Insights as a test for confirming the purity of a purebred dog. This is due to the fact that Wisdom Panel Insights is specifically designed to find multiple breeds in an analysis, under the assumption that the dog it is testing has more than one breed in its mix. A test to determine breed purity would need to be designed for that purpose and its accuracy validated

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:01 pm

Whenever the desire to win is greater than the pride in the breed, parentage can become less important. But that goes for the show people too....I know personally of folks who have bred fear biters and genetic disease because it wins....is that really any more or less dishonest???

Look at the people, at the integrity first...then look at the dogs....you find most folks are pretty honest....but probably unwilling to speak up about dishonesty.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:42 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:In spite of the variety of misinformation tossed out on this one, I find myself stuck trying to get past the idea of cutting the tail off a Miller pointer to make a field trial GSP?????

Well OK - You got a point there.

I suppose one would have to invest in a little dark brown hair dye also or maybe a couple of those fruniture repair markers from Home Depot. Just gotta hope it don't rain too hard.

RayG

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:46 pm

Chakar BAM THAT'S A HOME RUN!

Birddogz, STIKE 3 YOUR OUT OF HEAR!