Field trial GSPs

[mountaindogs]

Can you arrive at the same place by starting at two different places genetically?

You can and it happens all the time in nature. It is called "convergent evolution" and look it up. How many times did flight evolve? or why is a shark shaped very much like a killer whale and yet one is a mammal and one is NOT.

[Birddogz]

I understand about convergent evolution. I teach it. A Killer whale's fluke moves anterior to posterior. A shark moves laterally back and forth. Big difference. I can see the shape and structure being similar, but not the exact look of a dog. That I believe takes cross breeding. Not saying that it is a bad thing, just that it is my hunch that it has occurred. There are GSPs and Pointers that look almost identical. If the tail wasn't docked, they would look like litter mates.

[Crestonegsp]

This is how I understand it:
You have a litter and register it. It comes time to DNA a puppy and you send it off. The AKC sends back and says the sire has a DNA profile but the dam has no profile on record and you will need to have the dams DNA collected to complete the process. The dam has died since having the litter and you can not collect her DNA. The AKC says if that is the case you can have a DNA # for the pup but it will have a "Q" or limited registration because the parents can not be traced using their DNA.

[mountaindogs]

In the grand scheme of worldwide biodiversity - I would say they are quite similar considering the tremendous difference in their actual phylogeny. Two dog breeds on the other hand remain the same species, and are certainly not directly comparable anyway as domestication is not natural selection. But the point remains. You can get similar traits from different origins. You can also cross breed dogs since they are still the same species and similar enough to produce offspring. As to whether it was actually done? Are people honest? Are married couples faithful? Are breeders ethical?

[adogslife]

Breeding out the dish faced EP has help to cloud "type" in the breed.People will do what benifts their wallet and ego.

[markj]

Here ya go

My dogs are FT dogs look at the peds in my sig. I have heard it all from the clown pup being larger than the others in his litter to other "trailor" breedings.

As I said, who started these rumors? was it the guy that lost and is a poor looser? Know what you are buying and from who.

[Cajun Casey]

This is how I understand it:
You have a litter and register it. It comes time to DNA a puppy and you send it off. The AKC sends back and says the sire has a DNA profile but the dam has no profile on record and you will need to have the dams DNA collected to complete the process. The dam has died since having the litter and you can not collect her DNA. The AKC says if that is the case you can have a DNA # for the pup but it will have a "Q" or limited registration because the parents can not be traced using their DNA.

No. Q means a dog does not match parents on file. You do not have to have any ancestors profiled to obtain a DNA profile.

[ACooper]

Most of you must have missed it or just forgot about this very argument that one of the magazines run a few years ago about the looks of the two breeds. They run a series of head shots and then one of body shots and asked people to record which breed each picture was. Of course they had all of the people who could tell the difference respond and the funny thing was no one could tell. No one came close to getting the twenty I think it was right. The point is you can't tell anymore from just looking. But it was quite an eye opener though many of the diehards just couldn't come to grips with the fact that they couldn't tell which was which.

Ezzy

What if the gsps used were not of "pure" blood?

[ezzy333]

This is how I understand it:
You have a litter and register it. It comes time to DNA a puppy and you send it off. The AKC sends back and says the sire has a DNA profile but the dam has no profile on record and you will need to have the dams DNA collected to complete the process. The dam has died since having the litter and you can not collect her DNA. The AKC says if that is the case you can have a DNA # for the pup but it will have a "Q" or limited registration because the parents can not be traced using their DNA.

No.

Q means a dog does not match parents on file

. You do not have to have any ancestors profiled to obtain a DNA profile.

This doesn't sound right to me . The dogs are registered as a GSP and now they say the parents of the pup are not GSP's

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

It has nothing to do with breed. Ask Ferrell Miller. It is about putting the wrong dog down as a parent on the litter nomination/registration.

[slistoe]

This is how I understand it:
You have a litter and register it. It comes time to DNA a puppy and you send it off. The AKC sends back and says the sire has a DNA profile but the dam has no profile on record and you will need to have the dams DNA collected to complete the process. The dam has died since having the litter and you can not collect her DNA. The AKC says if that is the case you can have a DNA # for the pup but it will have a "Q" or limited registration because the parents can not be traced using their DNA.

No.

Q means a dog does not match parents on file

. You do not have to have any ancestors profiled to obtain a DNA profile.

This doesn't sound right to me . The dogs are registered as a GSP and now they say the parents of the pup are not GSP's

Ezzy

No, it would seem to be saying that the parents of the pup are not the parents of record. They could very well be GSP's.

Because of the ILP (?) provision it would be impossible to have these dogs excluded from competition, even at the highest levels. There is no reason right now why an ILP dog could not win the AKC Natl. Gun Dog Championship is there?

What I don't understand would be the AKC's waffling on the stud book issue and excluding the dog from the breed pool.

[slistoe]

It has nothing to do with breed. Ask Ferrell Miller. It is about putting the wrong dog down as a parent on the litter nomination/registration.

Seems to me that Ferrel Miller didn't misrepresent anything - his stud dog was confirmed as the sire of the dog in question.

[Cajun Casey]

It has nothing to do with breed. Ask Ferrell Miller. It is about putting the wrong dog down as a parent on the litter nomination/registration.

Seems to me that Ferrel Miller didn't misrepresent anything - his stud dog was confirmed as the sire of the dog in question.

I was referring to the fact that it is not breed of the parent being questioned, but individual identity.

[slistoe]

It has nothing to do with breed. Ask Ferrell Miller. It is about putting the wrong dog down as a parent on the litter nomination/registration.

Seems to me that Ferrel Miller didn't misrepresent anything - his stud dog was confirmed as the sire of the dog in question.

I was referring to the fact that it is not breed of the parent being questioned, but individual identity.

I realize that, but Don Wiggins would be the one to ask, wouldn't he?

[Cajun Casey]

Miller's name is on the dog. He gets the stigma.

Same thing here, you've got a NC called out on bad papers. Only difference is the dog has not been named.

[Dave Quindt]

There is no reason right now why an ILP dog could not win the AKC Natl. Gun Dog Championship is there?

ILP dogs are excluded from competing in competitive events, including field trials.

FWIW,
Dave

[Cajun Casey]

There is no reason right now why an ILP dog could not win the AKC Natl. Gun Dog Championship is there?

ILP dogs are excluded from competing in competitive events, including field trials.

FWIW,
Dave

That is incorrect. The particulars of what ILP/PAL dogs are allowed to compete in is available on the AKC site. You can get an OTCH or HC on a PAL. They are excluded from Conformation and both Pointing Breed and Retriever Field Trials.

[slistoe]

OK, hunt test only. Thanks. So what is the deal then? The Field certainly does/did not show such tolerance. Nor should they. There were a lot of folks who found themselves with unregistered dogs from the Online debacle.

[Cajun Casey]

OK, hunt test only. Thanks. So what is the deal then? The Field certainly does/did not show such tolerance. Nor should they. There were a lot of folks who found themselves with unregistered dogs from the Online debacle.

For starts, The Field does not have a DNA requirement for frequently used sires. As I mentioned previously, the vast majority of parental discrepancies are discovered when a stud dog falls under that requirement, which is three or more litters in a year or seven lifetime.

[slistoe]

OK, hunt test only. Thanks. So what is the deal then? The Field certainly does/did not show such tolerance. Nor should they. There were a lot of folks who found themselves with unregistered dogs from the Online debacle.

For starts, The Field does not have a DNA requirement for frequently used sires. As I mentioned previously, the vast majority of parental discrepancies are discovered when a stud dog falls under that requirement, which is three or more litters in a year or seven lifetime.

And how does that make the discrepancy any different? Dogs should be unregistered until proper parental documentation can be provided. Then they are re-registered with the correct information - or not if the correct information does not meet registration requirements.

[gittrdonebritts]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but it seems that many FT GSPs look very similar to EPs. In fact, take away the docked tail, and they would be almost identical. Have GSPs been crossed with EPs to make them run bigger, or is this just breeding? The Roman nosed GSPs of 30 years ago seem to be almost another breed. Just curious if GSPs are DNA tested as to their lineage. If they have been crossed, it doesn't make it a bad thing. A good dog is always a good thing.

Just Barley back and already siring up trouble ! come on !

[Cajun Casey]

OK, hunt test only. Thanks. So what is the deal then? The Field certainly does/did not show such tolerance. Nor should they. There were a lot of folks who found themselves with unregistered dogs from the Online debacle.

For starts, The Field does not have a DNA requirement for frequently used sires. As I mentioned previously, the vast majority of parental discrepancies are discovered when a stud dog falls under that requirement, which is three or more litters in a year or seven lifetime.

And how does that make the discrepancy any different? Dogs should be unregistered until proper parental documentation can be provided. Then they are re-registered with the correct information - or not if the correct information does not meet registration requirements.

I agree. If a dog is shown to be incorrectly registered, everything should be suspended which is associated with that dog's birth litter, that dog and its progeny.

It is, however, at the discretion of the governing body as to how to handle it.

[lvrgsp]

Here...........................
http://www.akc.org/reg/conditional_reg_info.cfm


And here......................
http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm


And one more time here.......
http://www.americanfield.com/Pages/DNA&FDSB.html


Enjoy

[Dave Quindt]

As I mentioned previously, the vast majority of parental discrepancies are discovered when a stud dog falls under that requirement, which is three or more litters in a year or seven lifetime.

That may be true across the entire AKC stud book, but based on the few dozen cases I'm aware of, I don't believe that's true of sporting breeds in general and GSPs in particular. In fact, I'm not aware of any cases where the frequently-used sire program resulted in finding a parentage issue.

[Cajun Casey]

As I mentioned previously, the vast majority of parental discrepancies are discovered when a stud dog falls under that requirement, which is three or more litters in a year or seven lifetime.

That may be true across the entire AKC stud book, but based on the few dozen cases I'm aware of, I don't believe that's true of sporting breeds in general and GSPs in particular. In fact, I'm not aware of any cases where the frequently-used sire program resulted in finding a parentage issue.

Maybe you ought to talk to AKC. The person I spoke with said over half their suspensions resulted from DNA being submitted under the frequently used stud requirement. That included both litters sired early in the dog's career and non-matching parents on the dog himself. I'd have to look in the Gazette, but I believe 10 - 12 litters a month are suspended.

[Dave Quindt]

Maybe you ought to talk to AKC.

Maybe I already have. And maybe to some much higher up than the CSR who answers the phone. Someone familiar with cases specific to field breeders in sporting breeds, for which there is not specific data calculated, much less published.

[Cajun Casey]

Maybe you ought to talk to AKC.

Maybe I already have. And maybe to some much higher up than the CSR who answers the phone. Someone familiar with cases specific to field breeders in sporting breeds, for which there is not specific data calculated, much less published.

I was not aware that AKC distinguished between "field" breeders and other breeders.