Is it the nose or is it genetic?

[huntcrazed]

I have a year old female shorthair that has some traits I have never seen before on a dog.
Here is a little background info followed by the big dilemma.....

She has been hunted on wild birds from last Sept through Feb of this year and she was an one year old dog at that point
Her exposure to wild birds has been tremendous ....almost daily all season from a few minutes a day to hours at a time.
She started on blue grouse, then quail and tons of wild chukar, then mearns quail and finished the season with Gambels.

With the exception of flagging on point I would not shoot birds over her unless she was doing certain things right like holding her point as long as it took for me to get there and ahead of her and never shot birds she retrieved without her finding them and holding point.
We had many limits of birds shot over her of every species hunted except mearns which was at the rate of one to four or five birds max per hunt(poor year)

She will do awesome looking points on Javelina with a high tail(no flagging) and lots of intensity.
She has been trained to stay on point till I arrive and not relocate on her own much if the game moves on and she is on point a long time.
When she points birds she will freeze the same way as on the little pigs or a cat or a sight point on a back yard squirrel but on birds and I mean all birds she flags her tail violently while she is standing there steady for many minutes if needed....... but the flagging is always there.
After I get there and she relocates she flags in a different manner......like when she is searching and hunting but as soon as she points again she always flags the same way.....much faster and very strongly with the whole base of the tail moving with it.

She has had enough exposure to learn quite early in age to hunt and find birds with a great search pattern and objectives but all through her experiences it was obvious she had trouble with single birds not being able to smell them, but on big coveys and ideal conditions she would slam on a frozen pointing stance but always flag.
She has trailed a wounded bird 100 yards a couple of times and find it and retrieve but she can not smell single chukar and on mearns she would literally almost touch the birds when she pointed them with the nose straight down to the ground.

She is smart ,easily trainable with great memory for a dog.

I was told by some it is obvious she has a very weak nose not capable of picking up single birds and that is why she flags.
On javalina scent, domestic cat once with out seeing it ,and anything she can see she looks perfect on point with no flagging what so ever.

While she flags on feathers and on point she will have a high head position just like a dog with a good nose but on singles or on Mearns quail she will point with her nose towards the ground......on sight or fur always up.

I would welcome any opinions on the matter .....is it a genetic trait or not?
Is it that she just does not have a good nose even though she is smart and has had tons of exposure on wild birds where she has learned to use it properly but is not sensitive enough for a normal dog nose?

There have never been signs of her having scent and keep on moving into it with out stopping after she got enough birds under her belt after a couple of months of hunting after she quit chasing for good and even before that she always flash pointed or stopped for a while on point but flagging before she would dive in.


Mario

[remmy]

I don't know if that is genetic. I do know that a lot of times flagging is caused by too much pressure on the dog. Pup just turned a year old and I think you've been asking a lot of it up to this point. I would just let her relax a little bit and then start the breaking process, if she is ready for it, all with single planted birds. Then move on to wild covies.

JMO.

[Gordon Guy]

To answer your question "Is it the nose or is it Genetic?" IMO the scenting ability of the dog "nose" IS Genetic, it's both.

I deal with Setters which are generally a softer dog than most GSP's.

You said your dog is a year old, how do you handle her when she points? Is there too much pressure applied?

You say she pointed off game well but when she points feathers she flags. To me she feels your stress level increase when on birds and is reacting to you.

My $.02

[ultracarry]

Have you ran your dog without finding birds? What do you do when your dog is on the bird? how old is the dog now? After you flush do you empty your gun as fast as possible. Does she break on flush or shot. What lines are your dog from... how much work before the season did you do? Those will help people give you advice.

If your board and want to try something different run the dog for about a month with no bird contact. Dog should be happy with out birds. In a few weeks throw on fat stinkie pigeon in a bush. The dog might be expecting birds right now and just happy she found it again for you. Which makes her happy and wages her tail.

Now if you have a dog you are calling while she is working and giving her direction all day she might be afraid she is going to mess up. Then when she is on point you constantly whoa her adding more and more pressure on her she would be afraid of screwing up and flagging again.

[huntcrazed]

The dog was let to run on wild birds since it was seven months with no training what so ever while hunting.

She did have planted bobwhite prior and she looked like she had trouble picking them up unless she was on top of them

I do not do much training on my dogs until the get past a year old after they get a full season of hunting first and develop all they were born with before any pressure gets applied to them.

She has been on point and stopped flagging while I was there when the birds become visible.

If it has something to do with me why does not flag when she can see the game or it has too much scent like a javelina?

I have had many great dogs in my life and I have never seen this before.......I am hoping someone has seen it and can tell me what they know by actual experience.

Not wanting to be confuse anyone here ,any opinion has its value and I really appreciate them all but hands on with the specific issue would be very educational for me here.

Is there a genetic trait in flagging on point in this world of dogs besides man made by bad handling?

On the web I came across an article that said the man made flagging has a dog flag with the end of the tail where the born one does what my dog does ...the whole rear end is moving around with the tail and it can not be fixed.
Never found anything else.

The breeder feels the dog can pass her testing (german ) and they will not disqualify the dog for being a flagger since there is nothing in the rules that says a pointing dog can not move its tail!

To me a flagger is not a pointer

Thank you all for your responses so far .

Mario

[Modi]

Mario,

I have to tell you, I bet most everyone on this site would gladly take that dog off your hands. At one year old she has had daily wild bird contact, and you have shot many limits over her. You can tell what animal she is pointing by her posture, and she is smart and steady. I will respectfully suggest that it is your standards that need to change rather than the dog. Other than some invented image of what a point is supposed to look like, who says that a moving tail is a fault? Maybe the very best dogs in those old oil paintings were flagging. Who knows? They are paintings.

I would love to see a high head and tail on all of my points, but to be honest if my dog finds and holds birds like yours does, I don't care if he rolls on his back and puts all 4 feet in the air. To each his own, and if style is that important to you, I won't judge you, but let me know if that dog needs a new home.

JB

[huntcrazed]

Mario,

I have to tell you, I bet most everyone on this site would gladly take that dog off your hands. At one year old she has had daily wild bird contact, and you have shot many limits over her. You can tell what animal she is pointing by her posture, and she is smart and steady. I will respectfully suggest that it is your standards that need to change rather than the dog. Other than some invented image of what a point is supposed to look like, who says that a moving tail is a fault? Maybe the very best dogs in those old oil paintings were flagging. Who knows? They are paintings.

I would love to see a high head and tail on all of my points, but to be honest if my dog finds and holds birds like yours does, I don't care if he rolls on his back and puts all 4 feet in the air. To each his own, and if style is that important to you, I won't judge you, but let me know if that dog needs a new home.

JB

Thank you for your criticism and your assumptions.

You seem to be biased and favorable towards a flagger being a good thing since you believe the dogs you have seen in old paintings could be flagging while they pointing!

The subject is what has been written in detail and if you have any personal experience in regards to this I would be glad to learn something from it.

I am not a breeder and never will be and I will not disclose where this dog comes from other that it is a Kurzhaar from the German club breeding not a GSP.

I believe most people like pointing dogs to fit certain criteria and I am sure most members here know what they are.

I invested a lot of time expense and effort for this dog to get the exposure it has so I would really appreciate anyones opinion on the subject of flagging and how it relates to nose or anything else

Mario

[tommyboy72]

Mario I do have experience first hand with this. My EP flagged in tight little 360 degree circles on every point she made till she was in her second season of hunting birds. I don't trial, only hunt but it was a bit annoying. She stopped doing it on her own her second season on wild birds. Chances are the dog doubts her own nose and abilities and until she gains confidence in herself there is nothing you can do about it. I did not pressure my dog at all. I just run my dogs on wild birds year round and let them figure things out for themselves with a bit of guidance here and there. My dog would hold point like a statue and never move except that tight little circle with her tail and then when I walk in front of her for a flush she would just stop the flagging and stand perfectly still. Now she goes on point and never flags because she learned how close she can get to birds before crowding them and she learned that if she stays on point and doesn't move then neither will the bird. Your dog is still young and will probably stop this with age or at least mine did.

[huntcrazed]

Mario I do have experience first hand with this. My EP flagged in tight little 360 degree circles on every point she made till she was in her second season of hunting birds. I don't trial, only hunt but it was a bit annoying. She stopped doing it on her own her second season on wild birds. Chances are the dog doubts her own nose and abilities and until she gains confidence in herself there is nothing you can do about it. I did not pressure my dog at all. I just run my dogs on wild birds year round and let them figure things out for themselves with a bit of guidance here and there. My dog would hold point like a statue and never move except that tight little circle with her tail and then when I walk in front of her for a flush she would just stop the flagging and stand perfectly still. Now she goes on point and never flags because she learned how close she can get to birds before crowding them and she learned that if she stays on point and doesn't move then neither will the bird. Your dog is still young and will probably stop this with age or at least mine did.

Thank you

I hope she does it will be an experience I would like to have.
360 circles sounds interesting also ,I have only seen that on a hound before flashing a hare back in Europe.

She was never a very bold dog,just middle of the road but not too soft.

Never had any pressure on her, just like you I like to let them develop on their own the first season just lots of birds.

Problem is the amount of birds I come across in a season is the equivalent of a life time for other dogs and hunters and nothing has changed from the beginning with flagging.......where when it comes to finding birds she went from a not promising pup at all to a dog that others found great in locating birds.

I have been used to seeing dogs come out with no major issues after that much exposure and almost a handful of them at a years age or even younger where finished dogs .....now those guys amazed everyone when another season went into them.....so this is what I am used too and I am looking .........I am down to this pup only.......I lost a great dog a couple of years ago and last year I also lost another real wonder dog in an accident.

There has been more in the past and there will be more in the future but it is so hard when you loose a line that worked great to find another.....in any breed......so many dogs and so many breeders that can sell but do not know what a good dog is ......heck most do not even hunt and the rest just breed what they can sell........

If anyone knows of a good line or litter and want to have them get experience on wild birds contact me please....I love to run good dogs on wild birds only.
I will shoot a thousand rounds on wild game a year and i do not shoot unless the dogs do what they suppose to.

I do not handle more than two and max three dogs through the season and I do not see a benefit to a dog unless they get the full experience of one season.

Mario

[tommyboy72]

Believe it or not we have tons of wild pheasant and quail out here where I live as well, 2 species of quail. This year was a bit of a down year compared to past years. This does not have as much to do with exposure to birds and handling them as much as it does psychological maturity in the individual dog. Take our wives for instance. You and I can tell our wives they are pretty every single day or our lives but until they think they are pretty or someone besides us thinks they are pretty they are still going to think what they want. It has to do with self confidence. Same thing with the dog. You can put as little pressure on her as you want and let her learn at her own pace and you can expose her to as many wild birds and different scenarios as you want but until she gets her self confidence up she is going to flag. She has to believe in and trust her nose like you do and that comes with not just experience but also age. I bet by next year or shortly into the next season she stops flagging. Good luck with her.

[peregrine]

Nose is genetic you can select and breed for it.And if you are careful keep it in your lines!! That kind of quirk sounds pressure related.
If your dog is well bred it will have all the necessary, let it grow up over the first year. By all means do yard work but the field must be so much fun that the steadiness pressure later is overridden by the sheer desire to hunt.
Watch out for too much pressure on a young dog, I have learn't the hard way. It can manifest itself later in stickiness,blinking etc.
The lessons learn't when young stick for life!!!

[kensfishing]

It's called confidence. alot of young dogs will do it. They're just not trusting they're nose yet. She see everything she's pointing and knows it. See can't see what she's pointing with her nose and not sure. Let her grow up.

[Modi]

Mario,

Absolutely no criticism intended my friend. I was just offering a different perspective. If style is that important to you than that is what you should concentrate on.

I was not suggesting that flagging was a desirable trait, just that it would be way down on my list of problems in a one year old dog and that if it never went away, you could look for the silver lining. That's just me. I did not mean to imply that you should feel the same way. The oil painting thing was tongue in cheek.

I did not mean to belittle your problem. I am sorry if it sounded like that.

Also, I have limited experience with it but I agree that it does sound like a lack of confidence. I wonder if you hunted her in an area without large coveys where she is likely to only encounter singles if it would make a difference. Perhaps she is so used to large coveys that she is tuned in to that amount of scent. If all she had to go on was the small amount of scent a single puts out, perhaps she would gain some confidence. Just a thought. I don't even know if that is possible where you are.

Good luck

[ezzy333]

If the dog can smell a covey it can smell a single. When you ask about it being nose or genetic they often are the same thing. One of the questions I don't think can be answered by humans is how good a nose does a pup have. Yours is a case. Smells coveys says it has a good nose so I automatically rule out your question of nose. What we don;t know is how does the pup react to what it smells. Some stop and point, some run into flush, and some just try to sneak closer. The real question is what do we do to get the pup to stop on first scent and stay ridged. I think the answers you have received are mostly right. No pressure experience and time should solve it though it is possible the pup will always do it and that can be genetic too.

Ezzy

[Chukar12]

She is only a year old and I would believe it is confidence and too much pressure. Expecting a dog to be dead broke at a year that is being gunned over requires pressure. You state that she is trained not to relocate on moving game without you, that is all stuff that requires pressure. You did ask for opinions and what we have seen from experience. I believe that the dog is flagging because it is over exposed, and probably over trained base on the information I am reading.

[birddogger]

I think it is what most of the others have said....Confidence and/or pressure. You said you have used little pressure but you stated that the dog was trained to hold point until you got there and walked out in front. How did you train her to do this? Additionally, I agree with Ezzy that it is not the nose. I also agree with tommyboy that with age and confidence she will probably grow out of it. A continued flagging problem can be genetic but is usually man made IMO.

Good luck,
Charlie

[huntcrazed]

Thank you all for your responses I really appreciate it and I understand the common knowledge and verdict on this dog is pressure and young age should be the reason for for the flagging on point.

The dog learned through lots of repetition that if she flashes the birds by moving when I get in front of her there is no shooting and she does not get to retrieve .

It is interesting with daily exposure how long it took to do it right to start and how fast we got to a limit in a day after that.

If it is pressure why is it that she points other creatures than birds with no flagging even if she never smelled them before.
For example....after she became a great dog for a puppy on chukar we go to Arizona and we first hit the field after scalies.
On the first mile she gets in a wash with cover and locks on point on a heard of Javelina........I took me a while to find her because of the way the beeper sounded in the multiple little hills of the wash and she would be right there on solid point ,no flagging!!! ....she had never being on Javelina before......she sees me and brake point flags like a birdy dog does tracks for a while and then slams a point again with no flagging on one of the little pigs which took off shortly and at that point she wanted to run after it.

Later in the hunt we found the first scaled quail she has ever seen she tracked them first with head down for some distance and she dove in the covey when she got to them after a short point I could hardly see from the distance .....I looked at the covey and where they went and I went there.
She comes over with me starts hunting around finding and loosing running bird scent and suddenly she slams on point head pointing at her feet and tail shaking with her whole "bleep" together violently but the rest of her body and head is right there drilling the ground for ten seconds or so......two scallies hit the air and I shoot one for her....she retrieved ...it was the first time she smelled these birds.

Why did she not flag on the Javelina?????

I do not expect a pup to be finished ever in a year or have high expectations I just had them happen in the past.

Did I train this dog much and put pressure on her?

In the yard she has learned to whoa...she has to do this when her food gets served while I do other things and she will eat when I say ok.
I have never used the command around birds ever.

She has had a training collar and an e collar on her in the yard and she is used to both as well as getting snake broke with the e collar before she ever hunted wild birds.
My philosophy is no pressure on a pup with lots of wild birds and basic training in the yard.
Lots of training if they can take it after a year.

I was always so lucky before they did not need much after a year.

I tried to style her on point for the first time on mearns at 11 months but I can not make the tail stop wacking when on point.

Do I have high expectations?

No I do not ....all dogs get born what they are...we can only work on what they get born with and call it training.

I am 54 and I hunt full time since I retired at 39.

I do not expect a pup to be a finished dog at one years age....it is just that I had dogs being that way in the past and I knew a lot less then than now and I look forward to all I will be learning always the rest of my life.

I am objective with my dogs and I do not get blinded with ego about mine regardless if they are great or in between...they are all different and special every single one of them.

I wish I can get some breeders to do this for me and judge what it should be the next breeding from a season of hunting not money or personal ego or an individual man made test or two.

I am glad I found this forum it is amazing how much stuff I have been learning reading every bodies posts and I look forward to a lot of dog talk in the future.

I really appreciate everyones willingness to share their thoughts and knowledge considering I am a pup here.

Sorry for the lengthy notes I get always too excited when it comes to dogs

Mario

[Chukar12]

With all due respect, only you know your dog. My advice or that of anybody else is limited to our interpretation of the written word that describes a problem, this is a highly inconsistent way to eavaluate a dog. With that disclaimer in mind, if it was genetic the dog would flag everything it points. I believe it only flags on birds because that is where it has been over exposed too early and pressured to be broke. Some will argue that you cannot have too many wild birds, I do not agree. Hunting and training are not congruent activities especially early on. The difference between pros and amateurs in the dog world is assessment and timing, these two things are a product of education and experience. If you are considering shooting a bird you cannot be reading a puppy, and while later the behaviors we are after have been secured by repitition and maturity, it is highly unlikely that a dog can be considered reliable between 6 and 18 months old. I think the problem will solve itself if you don't press too hard. Again, this is only my opinion and experiences.

[Elkhunter]

If it makes you feel better I had an EP that acted like he could not smell a bird till he was two.

[huntcrazed]

Thank you all for your input .

Lets see what happens with time....I will post again on this if a change happens.

Mario