Let's hear about it ...

[LBH]

I have some interest in hearing about some of these dogs. PLEASE PM any negative comments, I don't want anybody getting offended.
Heide's Mighty City Slicker

HEIDE'S MIGHTY CITY SLICKER.gif

Slick Kessie Joe

SLICK KESSIE JOE.jpg

Tonelli's Rising Sun

TONELLIS RISING SUN.jpg

[LBH]

Chishom Creeks Riptide

CHISHOLM CREEK RIPTIDE.jpg

H's Hedge Rise Ignited

H'S HEDGE RISE IGNITED.jpg

Thanks. I would really appreciate some stories, info, opinions, etc.

[Cajun Casey]

Sonny is what Dixieland's Rusty has boiled down to in this century.

Slick II is overrated and overbred. His momma made him and she was truly a blue hen and a foundation bitch for what the field trial GSP has become. She produced greatness from every breeding made with her.

[Elkhunter]

I think its kinda hard to call Slick over-rated, especially considering what that line has done.

[Cajun Casey]

I think its kinda hard to call Slick over-rated, especially considering what that line has done.

I just think the credit should be given where it's due, and that would be to Heidi-Ho Pinehurst.

I've seen quite a few dogs with varying degrees of Slick II blood and I will say the same thing about him I say about Elhew in pointers - it mixes well. He is a regional phenomenon, in a way. I don't particularly dislike the dog, I just like his momma a lot more.

[Middlecreek]

Slick II is overrated and overbred. His momma made him and she was truly a blue hen and a foundation bitch for what the field trial GSP has become. She produced greatness from every breeding made with her.

Overrated an overbred.... Really???

Overrated- Since 1995 he or his progeny has had a piece of the national championship. A.K.C., NGSPA, or NGPDA just about every year. That's nationals where everybody shows up from all across the country, hardly regional I would say.

Overbred- He actually wasn't bred all that much for what he had accomplished. If there was a 5x national champion alive today I would think he would be a fairly desireable stud.

It is true that his momma made him, and she deserves credit without a doubt, but his sons/daughters and grandsons/granddaughters have gone on to compile one of the most impressive win lists and production numbers in the breed.

He and his momma are just another couple of dogs that have had a profound effect on alot of the great FT dogs we have today and the past. The best??? Don't know, that's a matter of opinion, but they are definately in the mix

[Cajun Casey]

Overrated an overbred.... Really???

Overrated- Since 1995 he or his progeny has had a piece of the national championship. A.K.C., NGSPA, or NGPDA just about every year. That's nationals where everybody shows up from all across the country, hardly regional I would say.

Overbred- He actually wasn't bred all that much for what he had accomplished. If there was a 5x national champion alive today I would think he would be a fairly desireable stud.

It is true that his momma made him, and she deserves credit without a doubt, but his sons/daughters and grandsons/granddaughters have gone on to compile one of the most impressive win lists and production numbers in the breed.

He and his momma are just another couple of dogs that have had a profound effect on alot of the great FT dogs we have today and the past. The best??? Don't know, that's a matter of opinion, but they are definately in the mix

I should clarify that it is his name that is overbred. He died an untimely death and was, as you mention, not bred excessively. If you look at those litter pedigrees, you will also see that he was selectively bred, and it was usually to strong female lines. The same cannot be said for several other well know stud dogs.

Regional? He was a MoKan dog and the Nationals to which you refer are Kansas and Arkansas based. The influence of his name on the general population of field bred GSPs is tremendous and there are a lot of poorly thought out breedings made based on "Slick" bloodlines. No one counts the hundreds, maybe thousands, of dogs that aren't champions derived from that base that are peddled on the internet.

Was he a great dog? Evidence would say so. But, I will stand by my statement that it was Heide's influence that made the line what it is. He was also, in my opinion only, a remarkably ugly dog from the pictures I've seen.

[CHJIII]

I don't believe enough can be said for Heidi Ho Pinehurst. Remarkable dog and most every good thing in a Slick dog comes from her.

[Cajun Casey]

Slick II produced twenty seven titled progeny in AKC. The most successful breedings were with his half sister from the top side and with Cajun's Burning Desire.

[ElhewPointer]

Overrated an overbred.... Really???

Overrated- Since 1995 he or his progeny has had a piece of the national championship. A.K.C., NGSPA, or NGPDA just about every year. That's nationals where everybody shows up from all across the country, hardly regional I would say.

Overbred- He actually wasn't bred all that much for what he had accomplished. If there was a 5x national champion alive today I would think he would be a fairly desireable stud.

It is true that his momma made him, and she deserves credit without a doubt, but his sons/daughters and grandsons/granddaughters have gone on to compile one of the most impressive win lists and production numbers in the breed.

He and his momma are just another couple of dogs that have had a profound effect on alot of the great FT dogs we have today and the past. The best??? Don't know, that's a matter of opinion, but they are definately in the mix

I should clarify that it is his name that is overbred. He died an untimely death and was, as you mention, not bred excessively. If you look at those litter pedigrees, you will also see that he was selectively bred, and it was usually to strong female lines. The same cannot be said for several other well know stud dogs.

Regional? He was a MoKan dog and the Nationals to which you refer are Kansas and Arkansas based. The influence of his name on the general population of field bred GSPs is tremendous and there are a lot of poorly thought out breedings made based on "Slick" bloodlines. No one counts the hundreds, maybe thousands, of dogs that aren't champions derived from that base that are peddled on the internet.

Was he a great dog? Evidence would say so. But, I will stand by my statement that it was Heide's influence that made the line what it is. He was also, in my opinion only, a remarkably ugly dog from the pictures I've seen.

When you say regional, are you wanting him to run on the East coast, down the path, throw down trials? As far as the Nationals go, that should be the best of the best no matter what state they are from. Booneville and Eureka are two totally different kind of trials with different kind of cover.

[Middlecreek]

But, I will stand by my statement that it was Heide's influence that made the line what it is

I'll agree with that statement, but she was bred to old man Slick I believe three times. Who else was she bred to that produced "pre-potent Heide" dogs? She may be the one that started it, but if you want her blood, what better way to get it than to breed through to her best producing son young Slick? I'm trying to figure out what it is you don't like about him other than his looks. It can't possibly be his performance record or the records from his get. He may not be easy on the eyes, but his get and grand get are some nice looing dogs.

Here's a quote from someone that probably knew him better than anyone else:"I've heard/read people bring up Slick (Heidi's Mighty City Slicker) a lot of people wouldn't breed to Slick because of his looks. It didn't matter that Slick threw more solid or almost solid liver headed pups out of almost all the litters we seen out of him, it didn't matter that he was a running son of a gun that loved birds and love the field trial game by winning the NGPDA (All Breed) National Championship twice, the NGSPA National Championship twice and the AKC National Championship once (he's the winningest National Champion in the history of the GSP breed) I haven't and don't remember anyone passing him on that, plus he was the NGPDA National Shooting Dog Champion, NGSPA National Shooting Dog Champion, Regional/Specie Champion and FC. Slicks grand get and great grand get are still bringing on their grand & great grand pa's traits."

LBH, sorry to get off topic. I have seen most of those dogs run except Sonny, which I know very little about other than what you probably already know. PM me on your specific questions about the dogs and I will be more than happy to tell you what I have seen.

[Cajun Casey]

When you say regional, are you wanting him to run on the East coast, down the path, throw down trials? As far as the Nationals go, that should be the best of the best no matter what state they are from. Booneville and Eureka are two totally different kind of trials with different kind of cover.

I'm referring to who goes where.

As far as the bloodline, I think the credit for that would fall to Ace. That was the foundation dog for many of the well known produce of the line, and that's doubling on Slick I. There are other sides to the equation, and I've seen some awfully nice dogs created from other breedings, particularly those going back to Heide. The BDK/CCK system has produced a great line, and created an empire, more or less. Just my observations on breeding, progeny and wins. I have seen a bunch of them, but don't have any. It's kind of like putting together a futures prospectus, looking at pedigrees.

[Cajun Casey]

But, I will stand by my statement that it was Heide's influence that made the line what it is

I'll agree with that statement, but she was bred to old man Slick I believe three times. Who else was she bred to that produced "pre-potent Heide" dogs? She may be the one that started it, but if you want her blood, what better way to get it than to breed through to her best producing son young Slick? I'm trying to figure out what it is you don't like about him other than his looks. It can't possibly be his performance record or the records from his get. He may not be easy on the eyes, but his get and grand get are some nice looing dogs.

Here's a quote from someone that probably knew him better than anyone else:"I've heard/read people bring up Slick (Heidi's Mighty City Slicker) a lot of people wouldn't breed to Slick because of his looks. It didn't matter that Slick threw more solid or almost solid liver headed pups out of almost all the litters we seen out of him, it didn't matter that he was a running son of a gun that loved birds and love the field trial game by winning the NGPDA (All Breed) National Championship twice, the NGSPA National Championship twice and the AKC National Championship once (he's the winningest National Champion in the history of the GSP breed) I haven't and don't remember anyone passing him on that, plus he was the NGPDA National Shooting Dog Champion, NGSPA National Shooting Dog Champion, Regional/Specie Champion and FC. Slicks grand get and great grand get are still bringing on their grand & great grand pa's traits."

LBH, sorry to get off topic. I have seen most of those dogs run except Sonny, which I know very little about other than what you probably already know. PM me on your specific questions about the dogs and I will be more than happy to tell you what I have seen.

I didn't say I didn't like his looks, I said he was ugly. If you really want to know my problem with him, let's just say about half the dogs that come into rescue from Kansas with papers have his name on them. Back to responsibility. I have also seen the same problem several times with "Slick" lines that I've experienced with Rusty, which is tiny females. Nothing wrong with them, they are just small. Really small. As far as the solid liver head thing, anyone who has studied the breed will see that favoring that is a fairly recent advent, with Tell being one notable example. Many GSPs have marked faces, going back decades. Now, masked clear whites may raise some eyebrows, but that's simply a matter of taste. My ugly boy has a nice little thumbprint in the middle of the white track down his head, but his DNA is good, so what the heck?

You didn't give credit for the quote, by the way.

[ElhewPointer]

When you say regional, are you wanting him to run on the East coast, down the path, throw down trials? As far as the Nationals go, that should be the best of the best no matter what state they are from. Booneville and Eureka are two totally different kind of trials with different kind of cover.

I'm referring to who goes where.

As far as the bloodline, I think the credit for that would fall to Ace. That was the foundation dog for many of the well known produce of the line, and that's doubling on Slick I. There are other sides to the equation, and I've seen some awfully nice dogs created from other breedings, particularly those going back to Heide. The BDK/CCK system has produced a great line, and created an empire, more or less. Just my observations on breeding, progeny and wins. I have seen a bunch of them, but don't have any. It's kind of like putting together a futures prospectus, looking at pedigrees.

I think Joe A. has said this a million times, and I agree. National Champions produce National Champions! To me it's pretty obvious where I would go if I wanted a National Champion. Everyone has different goals.

[Middlecreek]

Heide was bred to Sieg Hiel and produced Bluemax Spitfir v Greif. That breeding was half brother X half sister on Julson Jesse, so maybe Julson Jesse should get the credit for the other side of the equation.

I agree with you, Cajun, but all sides of the equation when talking about that line of dogs has been pretty hard to ignore for a long time no matter how you get to todays dogs

[Cajun Casey]

Heide was bred to Sieg Hiel and produced Bluemax Spitfir v Greif. That breeding was half brother X half sister on Julson Jesse, so maybe Julson Jesse should get the credit for the other side of the equation.

I agree with you, Cajun, but all sides of the equation when talking about that line of dogs has been pretty hard to ignore for a long time no matter how you get to todays dogs

I think you will also have to look at who is campaigning the line. Honestly, I don't know; has there been much NC success with them outside BDK/CCK? I know Jim West handled Joker to a double header at last year's AKC all breed and they are the foundation for some knockout MH dogs out west (although I'm giving credit to the Sliderock dogs' momma), but where else have they really shown?

Heide was a linebred dog, herself, I believe on Jigs.

[Cajun Casey]

I think Joe A. has said this a million times, and I agree. National Champions produce National Champions! To me it's pretty obvious where I would go if I wanted a National Champion. Everyone has different goals.

I think if I wanted a National Champion, I'd go to CLJ x On Line, but that's not my goal.

[ElhewPointer]

I think Joe A. has said this a million times, and I agree. National Champions produce National Champions! To me it's pretty obvious where I would go if I wanted a National Champion. Everyone has different goals.

I think if I wanted a National Champion, I'd go to CLJ x On Line, but that's not my goal.

Im a shooting dog guy, i'll stick with Elhew.

[Joe Amatulli]

I think you boys need to work on your facts. Slick was without a doubt a top producer, but his best was when he was combined with Saddle. I have seen it represented that Slick was the all time top producer, which is far from fact. He had 32 dogs with 253 wins, his mother had 16 dogs with 238 wins, Slick 1 had 20 dogs with 238 wins, so basically most of Hiedi’s winning get came from that one litter. Now Slick 2 was bred to Marsha’s Southern Affair which produced Tarkas and Damar’s Southern Comfort which was bred only one time, but produced 5 dogs that had 114 wins, so another words those 5 dogs had almost half as many wins as all of Slick’s get. Saddle had 66 dogs with 610 wins, but that number is still growing and is 2 years old.

So the statement about Slick’s mother is true, she should get most of the credit, but to say that Slick 2 was over rated, well he received and deserved the credit he got, but not as the all time top producer.

I would like to make the comment that when Saddle and Slick came together they seem to bring lots of run, first rate bird dogs, and dogs that were easy to train.

If I am not mistaken either Cutter or Ace was also a product of combining Saddle’s blood with Slick.

One of the finest all age performances I have ever seen was from Sunny, it was a shame that the judges did not recognize it. And I have seen some outstanding dogs from him.

I judged Kassie and gave him 3 at the AKC Nationals, he came right back and did it again the following year, nice dog on his birds.

And oh ya National Champions produce National Champions.

[Middlecreek]

Joe has once again hit the nail on the head... Saddle X Slick has been amazingly successful. The category young Slick is on top of is national championship wins. There are dogs with more championship wins and Joe your Selina is one of the best that ever ran. She's the winningest female in history right? Or is it winningest male and female? Either way, Selina, Tarkus, Jax, and the like are the reason I have some saddle blood running around here.

[ultracarry]

Joe.. are you going to judge the AKC nationals this year?

[Dave Quindt]

If there has ever been a thread that needs to be blown up because of the massive amounts of BS being posted, it's this one.

Looking at pedigrees and websites, and repeating what one hears from the rumor mill does not an expert make, regardless of their ability to regurgitate "facts" in post after post after post at breakneck speed.

Lantz, you're much better off asking for QUALIFIED responses, from guys who bred to those dogs, owned pups from those dogs, judged those dogs or at a minimum, saw those dogs go in championship stakes, preferably multiple times. "Seeing a dog" sitting on the stake-out or at some weekend AKC 30 minute stake doesn't cut it.

As to Slick dogs winning elsewhere with other handlers, I seem to remember Tarkus and Siren winning a time or two; maybe our resident Google expert can look that up for us.

Lantz, with all due respect, do your homework the right way. Pick up the phone and call the folks with experience, or drop them an email. Throwing out open-ended forum posts only creates confusion and misinformation, and you’ve been around this game long enough to know better.

JMO,
Dave

[Cajun Casey]

I'm looking at AKC Progeny Reports, but I did get them online, so I suppose that counts. The Field numbers are in the HOF bios on the three, father, mother and son. Heide is the first female GSP inducted.

[LBH]

I understand. Im sorry, this post was meant for fun. I hope to see some of the listed dogs with my own eyes one day, as well as talk to the people who train, handle, own, and breed them in person. Didn't mean to misinform and confuse anybody.

[Joe Amatulli]

Dave that is why you see me pop in and out of this forum, some of the posts are so far from fact that it just raises my blood pressure, and of course, as always you are 100% correct.

Middle no Selina was not the all time female championship winner she was THE ALL TIME CHAMPIONSHIP WINNER, any breed, any gender, and again she was a product of, not Saddle, but a Saddle litter mate and a Saddle bitch to Slick. I am trying to repeat that combo with Selina’s daughters.

[ElhewPointer]

Joe, I wish I could have seen her run.

Middlecreek, don't you have a nice saddle bred pup right now. And BTW, the Ace x double bred Slick female litter you have coming up should be Awesome stuff man.

[Middlecreek]

You guys are right, this thread is going in the wrong direction and I will get out of the way so the more experienced people that frequent this forum can add their thoughts. By the way the ones I pm'd the original poster about I have bred to, owned pups out of, watched in multiple championship stakes, as well as watched them in training. The advice is good though, if you want real answers call the people who owned the dogs.

[Hunter]

All of the dogs above are dogs you should find in your pedigrees. All of my dogs are Slick bred or Sonny bred and couldnt be happier. I have since took my slick bred female and bred her back to a Sonny son and the litter has produced some outstanding puppies with great style. The Gulledges run or have run most of the dogs you listed and thats where i bought 3 of mine from. Both Slick and Sonny have produced some great dogs and hopefully by breeding the two lines together like I did will be as good down the road or better.

[ElhewPointer]

If there has ever been a thread that needs to be blown up because of the massive amounts of BS being posted, it's this one.

Looking at pedigrees and websites, and repeating what one hears from the rumor mill does not an expert make, regardless of their ability to regurgitate "facts" in post after post after post at breakneck speed.

Lantz, you're much better off asking for QUALIFIED responses, from guys who bred to those dogs, owned pups from those dogs, judged those dogs or at a minimum, saw those dogs go in championship stakes, preferably multiple times. "Seeing a dog" sitting on the stake-out or at some weekend AKC 30 minute stake doesn't cut it.

As to Slick dogs winning elsewhere with other handlers, I seem to remember Tarkus and Siren winning a time or two; maybe our resident Google expert can look that up for us.

Lantz, with all due respect, do your homework the right way. Pick up the phone and call the folks with experience, or drop them an email. Throwing out open-ended forum posts only creates confusion and misinformation, and you’ve been around this game long enough to know better.

JMO,
Dave

Who is the "local Google expert"? Just curious. I think there are a few guys on this thread that are "QUALIFIED" to respond. I'm not one of them, but it's interestested to read all the information on these great dogs.

[ultracarry]

I believe the above is incorrect....

I would go with Blues rockin new creation (NEO) LARRY LOWELL is the owner.

[Elkhunter]

Slick stuff throws some of this..............only 8 months old, not too mention a wild bird!