Black GSP/DK FC #2? A DK to boot....

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:30 pm

Just finished reading an email from a good friend, Ron Schmeider, up in Western PA and he finished his "Dolph's" FC this Spring. Dolph is a Black Roan DK founded from Hege-Haus, Wassershiling and Hiller Moor blood.

Throwing this out there for those interested in and following the progress of the "Black dogs" competing in the Trial venues.

A HUGE CONGRATS to Ron and Dolph!

Crystal kennels · Post by **Crystal kennels** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:21 pm

Wow that is great news Bruce!! Picture???

Judy

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:00 pm

founded from Hege-Haus

20 years ag I bought a female out of this line was imported here to USA, guy was using them as show dogs and putting MH on them. The name was Dutches Von Ossie but I have yet to find this kennel again. It was in central city NEbraska.

Good going for that dog, now if they can get to the show ring we will have some DC in black?

Quill Gordon · Post by **Quill Gordon** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:02 pm

Excellent Bruce. My ole lady wants a Blk roan pup next.
Hey who am I to argue?

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:56 pm

Love to hear this!!!!!!!!!! Keep them coming!! Congrats to all... Hopefully their will be another one soon.....

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:19 am

+1 on pic?
I'd love to own a black GSP!

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:49 am

Were these dogs finished at GSP trials, or Wiem trials, or any other off breed trials?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:38 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:Were these dogs finished at GSP trials, or Wiem trials, or any other off breed trials?

Here is the dogs FT record, could be missing a recent trial or two. Just curious why you ask?
http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=47617

JimJackson · Post by **JimJackson** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:15 am

Does he really need to answer, it’s not exactly a list of who’s, who in the field trial world, but if that makes you happy, I’m happy for you.

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:23 pm

So what you are saying is there are Field champs and there are field champs?

I just dont get it

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:46 pm

2¢.

The first black GSP to earn a competitive field venue title was a black and white, patched and ticked dog from Oklahoma.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:58 pm

markj wrote:So what you are saying is there are Field champs and there are field champs?

I just dont get it

That's what he's sayin'

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:22 pm

ACooper,

Thanks for the link. It's a fast way to check out what dogs won which events. Even though they only track points for red dogs.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:31 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Were these dogs finished at GSP trials, or Wiem trials, or any other off breed trials?

This statement (or question) is pretty uncalled for IMO. I run all different breed trials and see no difference if it is an open stake.....I have run Britt trials where there were only 3 Britts there....This is the kind of attitude that gives FTers a bad rap.....

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:45 pm

My next GSP will definitely be black, i wish they could compete in the show ring..are there any other events that the blacks cant compete in or is it just in confirmation?..it would be nice to see some black GSP's that are DC...ruth

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:58 pm

snips wrote:
Joe Amatulli wrote:Were these dogs finished at GSP trials, or Wiem trials, or any other off breed trials?
This statement (or question) is pretty uncalled for IMO. I run all different breed trials and see no difference if it is an open stake.....I have run Britt trials where there were only 3 Britts there....This is the kind of attitude that gives FTers a bad rap.....

I too run different breed trials have have seen a TON of difference. An ABSURD amount of difference. There was a Weim trial held up here where they'd run an all age stake, on grounds we had trouble getting 30 minutes of gun dog out of. Stake was won once by a GSP who was foot-handled!

Why do you think the Brittany folks require Brits to win a major at a Brittany trial as part of the requirement for an FC or AFC? If you want to talk about something that's uncalled for, start with that one, the institutional bias.

While you might have the decorum to not ask the question in public, are you saying that you've never checked into a dog's performance record to see where he was running and what he was running against?

Joe, being Joe, asked the question publically that all of us ask privately when something unusual is accomplished.

JMO,
Dave

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:37 pm

I don't think FT'ers give themselves a bad name. Actually I have never met a person at a ft who was not friendly or offered help. The only person at a ft who was not nice was a secretary for a britts club who I will not name. The only thing that gives FT'ers a bad name is people that are afraid to try something new.

As far as judges there are some who will place dogs who don't do as good because they like the dog or a specific club will pick one who had a bias for the breed. That's fine but in the year I have been in I have only one judge on my list who I won't run under unless there is a good judge with.

Another ridiculous thing that happens out here is the britt trial doesn't offer a limited stake. So you have all of the FC and AFC britts running in open and amature gun dog. Now if they had half a brain they would have a limited stake so you don't have the finished dogs competing for the britt clubs major. (just an opinion)

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:56 pm

If someone only runs in a specialty breed events, will they still need to get a win in an all breed stake to get titled?

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:07 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Were these dogs finished at GSP trials, or Wiem trials, or any other off breed trials?

:roll:

This is FC AFC Wolf Plain Brooks Sally, MH placements and trials. She is the first known FC AFC that is black

Pretty USELESS isn't she. Her trials have been GSP trials as well as some off breed trials. Some walking and some horseback. Wish people had more of an open mind and better sportsmanship and held their negative comments to themselves. It is just a color RIGHT? :roll: BIG CONGRATS to Ron and Dolph.

http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=24832

Sally AGD.jpg

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:20 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
Why do you think the Brittany folks require Brits to win a major at a Brittany trial as part of the requirement for an FC or AFC?

Because the level of competition at Brit FT's is that much superior to every other breed FT? Wouldn't want to lower the bar.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:21 pm

nikegundog wrote:If someone only runs in a specialty breed events, will they still need to get a win in an all breed stake to get titled?

Only the Brits have a requirement to win at a Brit FT.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:25 pm

CONGRATS to Ron Schmeider and his accomplishments!!!!! Way to Go!!!!

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:46 pm

nikegundog wrote:If someone only runs in a specialty breed events, will they still need to get a win in an all breed stake to get titled?

Only the Brits have a requirement to win at a Brit FT.

Can you get titled if you only ran Brit only trials?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:48 pm

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:52 pm

gpblitz wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:he first black GSP to earn a competitive field venue title was a black and white, patched and ticked dog from Oklahoma.
Was this a NSTRA title or AKC Title?

NSTRA

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:57 pm

ultracarry wrote:ACooper,

Thanks for the link. It's a fast way to check out what dogs won which events. Even though they only track points for red dogs.

Thank Ted Meyer (vzkennels) I got it from him and it is a nice little tool.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:45 pm

Congratulations to Dolph and his owner! I would enjoy seeing a picture as well.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:51 pm

I don’t care if they are black, white, pink, fuchsia, or any other color you want. I do have a problem when people run off breed trials to finish a dog and then claim to have a so called FC that is equal to the dogs that people work hard to breed, work hard to train and go out of their way to compete against the finest dogs in the country. As far as I am concerned we are trialing to improve the breed, how on earth is it improving GSP’s by running them against Wiems? But again, if that is what winds your clock, good for you. I am sensitive to this because I have seen how trials get manipulated to exclude, what I call National caliber.

Hey Dave what do you mean Joe is just being Joe?

Snips I don’t see how you could have interpreted what I wrote as negative. I simply asked how was it done, I guess I must have hit a raw nerve, and how you finish your dogs.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:10 pm

Joe
I am not saying you have not accomplished alot... Because you have. I have watched your dogs work and have appreciated what they do.
Looks like you to attend and run your dogs at some off breed trials.....See some red dog trials and wirehair trials listed here.......Not trying to argue Joe but just saying......

http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=5111

http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=5110

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:14 pm

Ohh not trying to start anything and you go digging by name? Watch out I heard you ran a finished dog in an am. stake and it wasn't even an all age.. or limited.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:24 pm

Well she is a useless black dog anyone should be able to beat her right???? My wife was supposed to handle her just for experience, but was running a puppy for me instead... Conflict of time...Should know the facts first Ultracarry....and is there any rule against this..... See lots of FC AFC competing in AGD and OGD. We ran against FC/AFC dogs to get her her titles. Makes the title more worthwhile doesn't it?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:42 pm

gpblitz wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Watch out I heard you ran a finished dog in an am. stake and it wasn't even an all age.. or limited.
What's wrong with running a finnished dog in Amtr. Stake? I see it done lots.

It's, like, how a FC gets to be an AFC, also, I believe.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:46 pm

They are trials, not shows...run em all I say, nobody want to back in...do they?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:54 pm

by Wyndancer » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:20 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:

Why do you think the Brittany folks require Brits to win a major at a Brittany trial as part of the requirement for an FC or AFC?
Because the level of competition at Brit FT's is that much superior to every other breed FT? Wouldn't want to lower the bar.

Hey...I just caught this...we will settle this argument in Idaho, just as we did when the AKC was in Reno...Dan and you other naysayers...

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:02 pm

Around here there are Breed clubs that host trials are mostly open to all breeds...If all breeds do not participate they would never have the numbers to put on a trial...So I guess it has to be a GSP Club to have any credibility? (if you are competing a GSP)....I guess I don't get it....If I snuck a GSP in a stake that was closed to Weims, or Gordons, ect, I could see what you are saying...

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:38 pm

I have to agree with Brenda on this one. The dog won the necassary points to complete it's title.
Now, if you want this dog to go and compete in NGSPA events? That's a different story.
Joe, you came and ran your dogs in a lowly GWP trial, and took home points if I remember correctly? Did they count toward whatever title you were seeking for her? Or did you just discount them?
If a trial or stake is open to all breeds, run your dog, and if it wins, be proud of it. Who cares what club is hosting the event. There are more then GSP's out there.

Fuzz

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:49 pm

I asked about how the pointer trials titled their dogs because I had recently read about retriever trials. In their trials I believe you could accumulate points in a specific breed trial but you had to have a least one win against all breeds to get titled.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:26 pm

Sorry to say it but there is nothing to gain by getting a major win over dogs that have not accomplished a FC or AFC if your dog already has the title for which the stake is being run. Now limited stakes and AA are against a higher caliber dog. Once you get the FC and AFC run your dog in championships or go to American field.and run with the big boys.

You don't see MH dogs running in SH or JH braces unless there is a kid handling them. Do as you wish but there is nothing to gain.

Casey the dog was finished on FC and AFC..... so what was the point again?

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:40 pm

Ultracarry
All I can say is WOW!!!! If you had a string of dogs and a finished dog, would you just not run her? .... my wife wanted to run a dog... Should that be held against the dog? AMATEUR TRAINED AND AMATEUR HANDLED to boot....do I need to explain myself to you?... A win is a win. Isnt it the best dog on the ground at the time on any given day?. And your telling me it is not worth a brag to win against 24 VERY capable dogs. I put her against one of our own dogs that day who wasn't finished. I wasn't bragging as much on her win in the" BRAG SECTION" as I was that all our dogs did well in a weekend. This is a thread pertaining to A BLACK FC /BLACK DOG PROGRESS not your chance to prove a point.. and don't give congrats on another thread"BRAG SECTION" if you are just trying to start an argument. Looks like your doing great with your bitch. CONGRATS to you! Were they all Shorthair trials?

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:46 pm

Simply amazing. I always thought dog people were above such arrogance, guess I was wrong.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:50 pm

ultracarry wrote:Sorry to say it but there is nothing to gain by getting a major win over dogs that have not accomplished a FC or AFC if your dog already has the title for which the stake is being run. Now limited stakes and AA are against a higher caliber dog. Once you get the FC and AFC run your dog in championships or go to American field.and run with the big boys.

You don't see MH dogs running in SH or JH braces unless there is a kid handling them. Do as you wish but there is nothing to gain.

Casey the dog was finished on FC and AFC..... so what was the point again?

GSPCA ranks by dogs defeated. If you want finished dogs excluded, you have to have classes, like Conformation.

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:07 pm

I agree, that all of the comments that question the dogs ability or the fact that he received a FC as uncalled for.

It is not everyones goal or desire to send a dog off and have it campaigned all over the country to get a title. A lot of people enjoy playing this game and love going out to a weekend trial within a reasonable drive of where they live for a fun weekend of seeing dogs work and meeting other people in the same situation.

To demean the title as something less, would probably say that most of the FC titles out there are not deserved. It is people like the owner of that dog that make your the FT's that you attend possible. That is the way clubs fill up these events, not all of the pros that show up.

What title is more deserved the one where a guy tries at all of the local trials that he can for a 2 or 3 year period or more to get a title or the person that sends there dog off to compete in what ever trial and competes in 10 or 12 a year. Pros also know what trials to go to, to get a dog finished as well, for that dog that is on the border of really making it or not.

Congrats to all involved with the dog.

brandon

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:23 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
Hey...I just caught this...we will settle this argument in Idaho, just as we did when the AKC was in Reno...Dan and you other naysayers...

Yes. Yes we will. I'll be there.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:53 pm

Sorry if it was my comments that were offending people. It was not my intent to demean anyone's dog, I was trying to gain an understanding of the process. I should of asked my questions at another time on another thread because I can see how you could perceive otherwise. I think its impressive to have a dog compete at that level, Congrats.

aidankirbywilliams · Post by **aidankirbywilliams** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:05 pm

Ill be happy to offer you a very big congrats...i think its great, and there appears to be some envy around here too.

Interesting that a German dog (DK) could best so many other capable dogs it ran against, I didnt think that was possible! (sarcasm)

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:37 am

Alright well let me see if I understand what some of you people are saying. It does not matter how the title was acquired, even if it’s at the limited competition, the fact that the dog has the title is enough.

Well than I will ask the question, does this do anything to improve the breed and what does this say about the difficulty of working to get that title?

One more point, I think it’s great that he has accomplished this, we did not all start by winning nationals and championships and this dog is most likely a nice dog, all dogs are nice dogs. But just keep things in context, unless you work to elevate the dogs and your game, it’s meaningless!

Raven are you questioning the competitiveness and quality of my dogs? If so buddy come out and play with me, Region 2 is in 2 weeks, let’s see what you have. Just curious, how are you able to get those records, I have never seen it before.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:51 am

Joe
If you read my post CAREFULLY I did give you and your dogs a WELL DESERVED compliment. Like I said, not looking to argue with you. You have played this game ALOT longer than I, but the point being is you too have competed at SOME non GSP trials.
I believe in a prior post someone gave info on how to access the field trial database where you can get placements.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:00 am

I wouldn't have a problem with the unsolicited questioning of how this FC was attained...but I don't believe I have EVER seen this come up before, with a liver colored dog. If you're gonna publicly question one, you better question all. And if off breed competitions don't count, than why enter them yourselves, and shouldn't you discount the points on your own dog...if they came from those FTs.

Seen it quite a few times on here, where folks say you've got to see a dog run, and not judge it on paper (or color in this case). Who was actually there, to see how this dog ran, and who his competition was? Everything else is speculation...

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:53 am

Just curious if the issue is because the dog is black or a DK?

Dirtysailor · Post by **Dirtysailor** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:58 am

Congrats to Ron and Dolph. Thanks for posting Bruce. I called Ron and told him congrats myself. I know them both and both are good examples on how most of you questioning folks should act. Go top someone elses thread.

As far as the rest of your bickering...you folks are the reason I don't trial. And to think I was gonna give it a whirl this year then these type folks rear there heads again and let me know to just stay in the woods hunting and stay out of the mine is better hen house.