Trial competition question?

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:11 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:I think I understand where DG is coming from the best.

Go to the trials with the most competitive dogs and run against the Champions of the sport and then you have a valid excuse why you lost.

That sounds pretty logical for some reason.

So much easier to be successful with low expectations!!

Actually I thought my dog Bugs might grab a piece of one a couple weeks ago at the Nat'l Am. Chukar AA, posting a dang nice run in the first brace of the dang thing, watched brace after brace bobble/get lost/come up short/etc. for two days until the last brace of the deal rocked it, producing the Ch & RU. Dang near blew my "no bar too low" strategy out of the water - gotta get Bugs hip with the program!!

Fieldmaster · Post by **Fieldmaster** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:01 am

Walking wins or placements should say just that and be listed as walking. Winning a 20 dog walking stake is a far cry from winning a Horseback stake with 20 dogs with multiple pros with championship caliber dogs. Alot of difference in the dogs.

Robert

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:41 am

Fieldmaster wrote:Walking wins or placements should say just that and be listed as walking. Winning a 20 dog walking stake is a far cry from winning a Horseback stake with 20 dogs with multiple pros with championship caliber dogs. Alot of difference in the dogs.

I've seen 20 dog horseback stakes with multiple pros with championship dogs where they struggle to find useable dogs because everyone blows up, and 20 dog stakes at walking trials where they had to use the callback to decide on placements because they had 3 dogs worthy of first.

I ran (and won) a gundog stake at a walking trial where the judge told me that my dog's performance would have won the same stake at the horseback trial the previous weekend; one attended by multiple pros with championship dogs.

I've been to walking trials with more finished dogs in attendance than the horseback trial being run 60 miles away.

If a dog who wins an American Field walking championship gets the same title as one that wins a major circuit all age championship, then it's good enough for me.

Fieldmaster · Post by **Fieldmaster** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:48 am

If a dog who wins an American Field walking championship gets the same title as one that wins a major circuit all age championship, then it's good enough for me.

Dave,
As you know the caliber of dog is a whole lot different in these venues. Little differnt also, alot of Horseback dogs can win in Walking Stakes , not many walking dogs can win Horse back stakes with pros and championship caliber dogs.

Robert

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:04 am

Fieldmaster wrote:
If a dog who wins an American Field walking championship gets the same title as one that wins a major circuit all age championship, then it's good enough for me.
Dave,
As you know the caliber of dog is a whole lot different in these venues. Little differnt also, alot of Horseback dogs can win in Walking Stakes , not many walking dogs can win Horse back stakes pros and championship caliber dogs.

Robert

You keep mentioning pros so is it the "pros" that win the trial or the dogs?

An old "pro" once told me you have a better chance as an amateur to show up and win with your well trained dog than a pro that shows up with 30 dogs because you've spent your time working on just one dog instead of 30...

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:26 am

my other half dedicates to being a volunteer firefighter EMT.

Hey, my wife is one of them

went thru the schooling and made it. She has a Masters already in the medical world so this is her way to give something to our community. I am too old now, I robbed a cradle

I go to Branched Oaks once in a while and I see a lot of amatuer trainer and handelers running with the pros, all seem to be nice and friendly to each other. All will say howdy and spend a minute shooting the breeze and this is a great thing.

Some folks buy a dog, give it to a trainer, pay the costs of training and trialing and only see the dog a few months of the year. Owner keeps trophys for his room, trainer gets paid and gets to work the dog. Nothing wrong with that, a pro has built up a life time of knowledge on how to trsain the dog, how to over come problems and get the absolute best out of the dog. So when you pay the person, you pay for all of that expirience and knowledge. Not a bad deal for a lot of folks.

Will a pro get the job done sooner? Maybe, he also has run the trials he knows the ins and outs, how to make the dog look its best on a find. A person has to decide which way to go and if it is affordable.

Either way, going to a trial is a fun event just to go and see all of the dogs and the guys running them. Also a good place to buy a horse at times, some of these guys break horses and tune em up for trialing.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:04 am

Adam wrote:
Fieldmaster wrote:
If a dog who wins an American Field walking championship gets the same title as one that wins a major circuit all age championship, then it's good enough for me.
Dave,
As you know the caliber of dog is a whole lot different in these venues. Little differnt also, alot of Horseback dogs can win in Walking Stakes , not many walking dogs can win Horse back stakes pros and championship caliber dogs.

Robert
You keep mentioning pros so is it the "pros" that win the trial or the dogs?

An old "pro" once told me you have a better chance as an amateur to show up and win with your well trained dog than a pro that shows up with 30 dogs because you've spent your time working on just one dog instead of 30...

Lot of truth in that statement...

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:30 am

Fieldmaster wrote:
If a dog who wins an American Field walking championship gets the same title as one that wins a major circuit all age championship, then it's good enough for me.
Dave,
As you know the caliber of dog is a whole lot different in these venues. Little differnt also, alot of Horseback dogs can win in Walking Stakes , not many walking dogs can win Horse back stakes pros and championship caliber dogs.

Robert

Robert,

Based on my experiences running walking and horseback trials from MN to TX, from MI to KS, I disagree. Maybe it's different elsewhere. The quality of an AKC Gundog stake depends on the dogs entered, the judges and the grounds. Whether or not the handlers are on horseback and/or the open dogs are handled by big name pros is generally irrelevant at the weekend gundog level. Forward running broke dogs win, regardless of handler or method of transportation.

Give me a "walking dog" (whatever that means) who is winning walking gundog stakes regularily, against quality competition, and I can take that dog to any weekend horseback trial and be competitive.

Championships and hour stakes are a whole other matter.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:37 am

According to a good friend of mine from this forum whose name I will not mention, about the only difference between a big running walking dog and a horseback dog is about 200 yards.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:46 am

tommyboy72 wrote:According to a good friend of mine from this forum whose name I will not mention, about the only difference between a big running walking dog and a horseback dog is about 200 yards.

I'd be willing to bet the difference isn't even that much.

Reech · Post by **Reech** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:51 am

snips wrote:
Adam wrote:
Fieldmaster wrote: Dave,
As you know the caliber of dog is a whole lot different in these venues. Little differnt also, alot of Horseback dogs can win in Walking Stakes , not many walking dogs can win Horse back stakes pros and championship caliber dogs.

Robert
You keep mentioning pros so is it the "pros" that win the trial or the dogs?

An old "pro" once told me you have a better chance as an amateur to show up and win with your well trained dog than a pro that shows up with 30 dogs because you've spent your time working on just one dog instead of 30...

Lot of truth in that statement...

which Statement?

Me

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:12 pm

snips wrote:
Adam wrote:
You keep mentioning pros so is it the "pros" that win the trial or the dogs?

An old "pro" once told me you have a better chance as an amateur to show up and win with your well trained dog than a pro that shows up with 30 dogs because you've spent your time working on just one dog instead of 30...

Lot of truth in that statement...

There's kernel of truth in that statement. But the pro is going to have multiple chances to take the blue...and those chances will come at various times of the day. Some when the birds are active, some when they're not. Some when it's nice and cool, some when it's hot as heck. And not to mention that the pro will probably have a dog that is the style that the judges like on that given day...the amateur runs what he/she brought...and if it isn't the "type/style" the judges like....bummer. And if it is the "type", the pro probably has one too, now ya gotta beat it.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:26 pm

[quote="Adam"] An old "pro" once told me you have a better chance as an amateur to show up and win with your well trained dog than a pro that shows up with 30 dogs because you've spent your time working on just one dog instead of 30...[/quote]

That's one of the "old wives tales" of the game. Retriever pro Mike Lardy said it best - "If more time meant a better dog all of us pros would lose to the guys who can focus all of their energy on one dog. When was the last time any of us lost to a guy with one dog?"

There is training "not to lose" and then there is training "to win"; the former can get you through hunt tests and local trials with average competition. The later is what's needed to compete at the larger trials and particularly at the championship level. The guy with one dog usually doesn't have the experience to know what it takes to train to win; by the time they do they've got a string of dogs.

FWIW,
Dave

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:28 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:According to a good friend of mine from this forum whose name I will not mention, about the only difference between a big running walking dog and a horseback dog is about 200 yards.

And about 6 mph more. You need a lot more dog.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:44 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
Adam wrote: An old "pro" once told me you have a better chance as an amateur to show up and win with your well trained dog than a pro that shows up with 30 dogs because you've spent your time working on just one dog instead of 30...
That's one of the "old wives tales" of the game. Retriever pro Mike Lardy said it best - "If more time meant a better dog all of us pros would lose to the guys who can focus all of their energy on one dog. When was the last time any of us lost to a guy with one dog?"

There is training "not to lose" and then there is training "to win"; the former can get you through hunt tests and local trials with average competition. The later is what's needed to compete at the larger trials and particularly at the championship level. The guy with one dog usually doesn't have the experience to know what it takes to train to win; by the time they do they've got a string of dogs.

FWIW,
Dave

FWIW as gospel, Dave - and for saying horsefeathers to the "lot of truth" in the "old pro's" account.

Mike (or Ray V.) (or Pat B.) may have lost to a guy or gal with one dog, but they would've had 15-20 bullets for an all-day siege against his single-shot, and it would've been the rarest of days for them to be outgunned.

MG

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:54 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:According to a good friend of mine from this forum whose name I will not mention, about the only difference between a big running walking dog and a horseback dog is about 200 yards.

Nah. It's twenty years.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:56 pm

Just a question I would like to pose. Are pro trainers really that good or do you think they are guys that have better dogs to start with because the owners wanted the best. For instance any school teacher could look amazing if all the pupils they taught had an IQ of 180 to start off with unfortunately that is not the case. Do you think that part of the reason that many pro trainers are so successful is that the owers had the means to buy the most well bred dogs to start off with and sent them to a trainer right off the bat? If you start off with the best genetics money can buy I am sure it is a heck of a lot easier to develop that dog into a champion field trial dog. Sometimes I am sure that many of the most successful field trialers are people who have developed their own particular bloodlines and know that line inside and out including the weaknesses and strenghts of that particular line and how to work around and to compensate for those weaknesses but for the most part I am sure they are dealing with other people's dogs. I would like to see a pro take a genetically inferior dog and turn it into a champion field trial dog. That would truely impress me. JMO

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:01 pm

The ones that win consistantly are WAY better! As far as a dog with avg pedigree, look at Ch. Sir Lancelot.

Reech · Post by **Reech** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:18 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
snips wrote:
Adam wrote:
You keep mentioning pros so is it the "pros" that win the trial or the dogs?

An old "pro" once told me you have a better chance as an amateur to show up and win with your well trained dog than a pro that shows up with 30 dogs because you've spent your time working on just one dog instead of 30...

Lot of truth in that statement...
There's kernel of truth in that statement. But the pro is going to have multiple chances to take the blue...and those chances will come at various times of the day. Some when the birds are active, some when they're not. Some when it's nice and cool, some when it's hot as heck. And not to mention that the pro will probably have a dog that is the style that the judges like on that given day...the amateur runs what he/she brought...and if it isn't the "type/style" the judges like....bummer. And if it is the "type", the pro probably has one too, now ya gotta beat it.

I wonder how many "Gas Dogs" he has?

Me

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:28 pm

Reech wrote:
I wonder how many "Gas Dogs" he has?

Me

If you get an answer, you gonna move the goalposts again?

Define "Gas dog"

Have you spent much time around any pros? AKC pros in particular? I have, and I know that these pros have sent dogs home because they couldn't beat any dog on their string. Yet the owner insists they "give'em another try", or "I really want him out, and I trust you to do it.", or "I'll just put him with somebody else, so he might as well be with you." So the conscientious pro, one that tried to send the dog home, may very well have that dog on their string. Does that make it a "gas dog"?..because the owner has been told and knows, but chooses to spend the money anyway. And really, the successful pro sees the sub-par dog as a drain on their available time. They'd much rather work dogs that are talented...because it's easier in two ways....mentally and from a time standpoint.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:34 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Reech wrote:
I wonder how many "Gas Dogs" he has?

Me
If you get an answer, you gonna move the goalposts again?

Define "Gas dog"

Have you spent much time around any pros? AKC pros in particular? I have, and I know that these pros have sent dogs home because they couldn't beat any dog on their string. Yet the owner insists they "give'em another try", or "I really want him out, and I trust you to do it.", or "I'll just put him with somebody else, so he might as well be with you." So the conscientious pro, one that tried to send the dog home, may very well have that dog on their string. Does that make it a "gas dog"?..because the owner has been told and knows, but chooses to spend the money anyway. And really, the successful pro sees the sub-par dog as a drain on their available time. They'd much rather work dogs that are talented...because it's easier in two ways....mentally and from a time standpoint.

It way different in AF than AKC imo.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:52 pm

ElhewPointer wrote: And about 6 mph more. You need a lot more dog.

Is Thunderbird Punch Buggy a walking dog or a horseback dog? Or just a smart dog?

Reech · Post by **Reech** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:57 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Reech wrote:
I wonder how many "Gas Dogs" he has?

Me
If you get an answer, you gonna move the goalposts again?

Define "Gas dog"

Have you spent much time around any pros? AKC pros in particular? I have, and I know that these pros have sent dogs home because they couldn't beat any dog on their string. Yet the owner insists they "give'em another try", or "I really want him out, and I trust you to do it.", or "I'll just put him with somebody else, so he might as well be with you." So the conscientious pro, one that tried to send the dog home, may very well have that dog on their string. Does that make it a "gas dog"?..because the owner has been told and knows, but chooses to spend the money anyway. And really, the successful pro sees the sub-par dog as a drain on their available time. They'd much rather work dogs that are talented...because it's easier in two ways....mentally and from a time standpoint.

No I am not going to move the goal posts again. You Deleted a quote from my original question and then answered and It in a totally different context. Which by your own words is moving the goal post. The question was Directed at Brenda. It was directed at her because it was something she replied to in quotes. If she choses to answer it then that is her choice. Obviously you have heard the term "Gas Dog" and it's meaning or else you would not have been so defensive. And the answer to your first question, Yes I have been around this game long enough to form my own opinions on what goes on.

Me

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:02 pm

In many cases wouldn't the difference between a horseback and walking dog be dependent on the stake chosen by the owner than actual abilities of the dog?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:14 pm

In many cases wouldn't the difference between a horseback and walking dog be dependent on the stake chosen by the owner than actual abilities of the dog?

i thought it was the other way around. if you had a dog that didn't range out far enough for a horseback trial you still might be okay for walking stakes? so, the stakes you choose to enter is based on the dog's ability/range.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:15 pm

Is Thunderbird Punch Buggy a walking dog or a horseback dog? Or just a smart dog?

Or is Travis a "bleep" good trainer/handler? He's got Wynot Ace on his string too that he told me has been in the winner's circle in about every AF venue there is as well - I think he was minus the cover dog ch. that Punchy has...something like that...my eyes glazed over and I started daydreaming when he started talking about the winner's circle.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:12 pm

David I am having a very difficult time believing that you believe, walking trials are comparable to horseback, I know you know better. Are there dogs that can and have excelled in both, absolutely, but like Robert said, many horseback dogs can compete in walking, but the reverse is rarely true. Just to add one more point it takes a smart dog to figure out the difference, but also the trainer needs to understand that he must train for walking as well as horseback. I also think you will find that a number of, what we call “our cream of the crop” competitive dogs have also won walking stakes, but good luck trying to find a dog that predominantly competes in walking that has won a few horseback championships. Not say that it's never done, but rarely done.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:38 pm

Hey Reech, sorry, I missed your question. Lota truth in some one showing up with 1 or 2 dogs and doing very well...I was running 1 trial with someone (very well known pro) who has big strings of dogs and every dog of his I ran against interferred with the dog I was running. I run Walking Trials primarily because I prefer them...But I can switch from horse back to walking with any dog I run and feel secure. I think dogs adjust to handling from foot or horse.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:01 pm

Reech wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
Reech wrote:
I wonder how many "Gas Dogs" he has?

Me
If you get an answer, you gonna move the goalposts again?

Define "Gas dog"

Have you spent much time around any pros? AKC pros in particular? I have, and I know that these pros have sent dogs home because they couldn't beat any dog on their string. Yet the owner insists they "give'em another try", or "I really want him out, and I trust you to do it.", or "I'll just put him with somebody else, so he might as well be with you." So the conscientious pro, one that tried to send the dog home, may very well have that dog on their string. Does that make it a "gas dog"?..because the owner has been told and knows, but chooses to spend the money anyway. And really, the successful pro sees the sub-par dog as a drain on their available time. They'd much rather work dogs that are talented...because it's easier in two ways....mentally and from a time standpoint.
No I am not going to move the goal posts again. You Deleted a quote from my original question and then answered and It in a totally different context. Which by your own words is moving the goal post. The question was Directed at Brenda. It was directed at her because it was something she replied to in quotes. If she choses to answer it then that is her choice. Obviously you have heard the term "Gas Dog" and it's meaning or else you would not have been so defensive. And the answer to your first question, Yes I have been around this game long enough to form my own opinions on what goes on.

Me

Here's the deal...try quoting a post that contains three quotes already (and the quote makes four)...see if the system allows that and get back to me. Here's a clue, it doesn't. So I had to remove one quote in order to post the reply.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:05 pm

I've won walking trials and horseback trials with the same dog. Beat six pros on the ground in an Open Stake with one dog in a horseback trial. I've also run hour championships with the same dog in AA and have a RU on him. The dogs make most of the difference. As far as pros, they have alot more dogs to run than an Amt. so the odds are in their favor. It's still rush just to watch.

Reech · Post by **Reech** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:53 pm

snips wrote:Hey Reech, sorry, I missed your question. Lota truth in some one showing up with 1 or 2 dogs and doing very well...I was running 1 trial with someone (very well known pro) who has big strings of dogs and every dog of his I ran against interferred with the dog I was running. I run Walking Trials primarily because I prefer them...But I can switch from horse back to walking with any dog I run and feel secure. I think dogs adjust to handling from foot or horse.

Brenda,

Thanks, for your responce. I agree with you I don't see any difference between Walking and riding. I am sure the dog could care less also. The dog will adjust. I think I have one that will be able to do both also. KInda funny that interference thing happening.

Have a nice day

Reech

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:25 pm

dockgsp wrote:In the GSPCA world, to earn amateur GSP gun dog of the year, points are earned in both amateur and amateur limited stakes. If you are campaigning your dog for this title, you must run an AFC in both ama and ama limited.

I just pulled this quote from the other thread on trialing. Is there truth in this? Or do people not do this due to the unwritten rule? I am not being wise I am truly curious?
JEN

Texasdogtrainer · Post by **Texasdogtrainer** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:34 pm

Fieldmaster wrote:
If a dog who wins an American Field walking championship gets the same title as one that wins a major circuit all age championship, then it's good enough for me.
Dave,
As you know the caliber of dog is a whole lot different in these venues. Little differnt also, alot of Horseback dogs can win in Walking Stakes , not many walking dogs can win Horse back stakes with pros and championship caliber dogs.

Robert

Walking dogs not being able to win HB Championship is simply untrue. There is a laundry list of dogs that we call great has done just that. I am only going to name two. Island Grove Brute won his first championship in US Complete and won 5 championships with Shawn. Elhew Texas Snakeyes, won a walking regional championship and went on to win 2 major shooting dog championships with Dean Lord.

Fieldmaster · Post by **Fieldmaster** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:31 am

Walking dogs not being able to win HB Championship is simply untrue. There is a laundry list of dogs that we call great has done just that. I am only going to name two. Island Grove Brute won his first championship in US Complete and won 5 championships with Shawn. Elhew Texas Snakeyes, won a walking regional championship and went on to win 2 major shooting dog championships with Dean Lord.

Correct me if I am wrong but I would venture to say that these dogs were Horseback dogs first that were handled in a walking championship. I never said a Horseback dog couldn't win a walking stake.

Robert

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:47 am

While I'm not sure that the Brittany requirement of winning a major stake at a Brit trial is the answer, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in the requirement for an FC for GSPs to ensure that the broke dog wins come against competition that's representative of what the GSP breed has to offer. I'd also like to see a change in the requirements for the DC to include a placement in an hour stake.

JMO,
Dave[/quote]

So, would that mean a dog placing in an hour stake require a major in the show ring?
Or a NFC reguire, say 6 show points?

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:04 am

Brenda I’ll go one better, I totally agree that it has become way too easy finish a GSP, but I believe it’s the fault of the AKC/GSPCA, we have some clubs in the northeast that have no business running a trail. The grounds they run on are extremely small and what’s worse the course is set up in such a way that it is impossible to get a national caliber dog around. Personally I believe that some of these trials should be closed. Four of the clubs run on grounds that are surrounded by fast roads, no fence, and for years did not allow tracking colliers. Along with that not a one of the dogs that run at these trials could ever compete at the nationals, it seems to me WHAT’S THE POINT.

Fieldmaster · Post by **Fieldmaster** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:08 am

I'd also like to see a change in the requirements for the DC to include a placement in an hour stake.

Guess we would have to go as far to say that the requirement for a FC or AFC to include an hour placement as well. Be a whole lot more untitled dogs.

Robert

Texasdogtrainer · Post by **Texasdogtrainer** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:14 am

Fieldmaster wrote:
Walking dogs not being able to win HB Championship is simply untrue. There is a laundry list of dogs that we call great has done just that. I am only going to name two. Island Grove Brute won his first championship in US Complete and won 5 championships with Shawn. Elhew Texas Snakeyes, won a walking regional championship and went on to win 2 major shooting dog championships with Dean Lord.
Correct me if I am wrong but I would venture to say that these dogs were Horseback dogs first that were handled in a walking championship. I never said a Horseback dog couldn't win a walking stake.

Robert

These dogs where walking dog first, 6 x RU All-age Champion started off his a career as a walking dog and went on the win 6 major circuit all-age runner - up championships. Chicklah Chief, 2 x Horse back champion, was texas walking shooting dog derby of the year, was sold and won 2 open shooting dog championships. Therapy was NBHA futurity winner. Rock-n-Roller was walking dog and went on to win Shooting dog championship. Gigolo Cruz was a walking dog that won the Sunflower Ch., Barker's Blue Jet was 3 walking ch and 2 HB runner Ch. Go for Broke won walking championship and runner HB championship. I think there is a very thin line between Shooting dog and walking shooting dog.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:18 am

Fieldmaster wrote:
I'd also like to see a change in the requirements for the DC to include a placement in an hour stake.
Guess we would have to go as far to say that the requirement for a FC or AFC to include an hour placement as well. Be a whole lot more untitled dogs.

Robert

Or we could go a step further and just exclude all FC's thru half hour stakes :roll: Or make them water retrieve, or heel off birds....Or, heaven forbid, make them honor before receiving a FC......

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:10 am

So I'm confused now according to joe the only dogs that should recieve a FC are dogs that could compete at a national level???

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:25 am

Texasdogtrainer wrote:
Fieldmaster wrote:
Walking dogs not being able to win HB Championship is simply untrue. There is a laundry list of dogs that we call great has done just that. I am only going to name two. Island Grove Brute won his first championship in US Complete and won 5 championships with Shawn. Elhew Texas Snakeyes, won a walking regional championship and went on to win 2 major shooting dog championships with Dean Lord.
Correct me if I am wrong but I would venture to say that these dogs were Horseback dogs first that were handled in a walking championship. I never said a Horseback dog couldn't win a walking stake.

Robert

These dogs where walking dog first, 6 x RU All-age Champion started off his a career as a walking dog and went on the win 6 major circuit all-age runner - up championships. Chicklah Chief, 2 x Horse back champion, was texas walking shooting dog derby of the year, was sold and won 2 open shooting dog championships. Therapy was NBHA futurity winner. Rock-n-Roller was walking dog and went on to win Shooting dog championship. Gigolo Cruz was a walking dog that won the Sunflower Ch., Barker's Blue Jet was 3 walking ch and 2 HB runner Ch. Go for Broke won walking championship and runner HB championship. I think there is a very thin line between Shooting dog and walking shooting dog.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:28 am

Texasdogtrainer wrote:
Fieldmaster wrote:
Walking dogs not being able to win HB Championship is simply untrue. There is a laundry list of dogs that we call great has done just that. I am only going to name two. Island Grove Brute won his first championship in US Complete and won 5 championships with Shawn. Elhew Texas Snakeyes, won a walking regional championship and went on to win 2 major shooting dog championships with Dean Lord.
Correct me if I am wrong but I would venture to say that these dogs were Horseback dogs first that were handled in a walking championship. I never said a Horseback dog couldn't win a walking stake.

Robert

These dogs where walking dog first, 6 x RU All-age Champion started off his a career as a walking dog and went on the win 6 major circuit all-age runner - up championships. Chicklah Chief, 2 x Horse back champion, was texas walking shooting dog derby of the year, was sold and won 2 open shooting dog championships. Therapy was NBHA futurity winner. Rock-n-Roller was walking dog and went on to win Shooting dog championship. Gigolo Cruz was a walking dog that won the Sunflower Ch., Barker's Blue Jet was 3 walking ch and 2 HB runner Ch. Go for Broke won walking championship and runner HB championship. I think there is a very thin line between Shooting dog and walking shooting dog.

You neglected to mention Jet was also a ProClub cover model.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:58 am

I would be all in for AKC to change to 1 hour stakes

won't ever happen but I'm for it.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:06 am

I think it might be in order to remember that not all AKC pointing breeds fall in the big running, long running category. Spins, griffs, and some of the likely new breeds are still eligible for competitive field titles, but are not going to go at the pace of a Moesgaard bred GSP.

It would be a shame to exclude them from the opportunity to title.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:51 pm

Wow, this trial thing is confusing/intimidating. Hard to figure out, without being involved. I hunt tested my previous dog, and am interested in branching out, but man, its tough to understand? All of the terms and abbreviations are tough to follow. I subscribed to Filed trial mag, so I hope that helps, cuz Im baffled. lol

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:06 pm

Bailey just go to one of your local trials and it will be easy. Especially if you run in trials on the east coast they don't have big fields and you will probably finish in 20 min

The competition is nothing like the west where we have hills and mountains and tough competition and when your 30 min are up you may have a 10 min ride back..

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:15 pm

ultracarry wrote:Bailey just go to one of your local trials and it will be easy. Especially if you run in trials on the east coast they don't have big fields and you will probably finish in 20 min The competition is nothing like the west where we have hills and mountains and tough competition and when your 30 min are up you may have a 10 min ride back..

In AKC stakes are 30 minutes. Any thing else and they can get wrote up for it. Most trials are an out and back or loop. I've run them out west it's the same everywhere.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:27 pm

I tend to ride slower coming back...tough to balance with a dog on the saddle with me..

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:50 pm

kensfishing wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Bailey just go to one of your local trials and it will be easy. Especially if you run in trials on the east coast they don't have big fields and you will probably finish in 20 min The competition is nothing like the west where we have hills and mountains and tough competition and when your 30 min are up you may have a 10 min ride back..
In AKC stakes are 30 minutes. Any thing else and they can get wrote up for it. Most trials are an out and back or loop. I've run them out west it's the same everywhere.

Last time I checked there weren't as many high desert locations on the east coast, as well as mountains, hills and open spaces... maybe I'm wrong but green grass and tree lines don't seem to harsh. If put in those situations a dog should be able to flat out run for hours. Now put them around rocky hills and cactus and watch them work. Two different types of trials to me.

Chukar12 wrote:I tend to ride slower coming back...tough to balance with a dog on the saddle with me..

But you look so cute doing it.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm

I think you're confusing the east coast with the mid west. A good dog can adapt to any terrain.