Trial competition question?

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:52 am

First I want to make it clear that I do not trial. I live too far away from any venue to trial and can't afford the overhead costs. I am just curious as to what opinions are on deliberately running against weaker competition in order to put titles and wins on a dog. I am not accusing anyone of doing it and not judging anyone. I am just asking how often it is done and what people's opinions on doing this are? Is this something that is just a part of the trial world or just something that happens randomly? This stems from another thread that was locked about the time it got interesting. Someday I do hope to trial and am giving some pups to a friend who intends to trial in the northeast. He will be new to trialing and I will be living vicariously through him and his trialing exploits and would like to know what is accepted and what is frowned upon so that I may pass it on to him. Thanks to everyone for their input. Ezzy please give this thread a chance to develop before you lock it. I am sincerely interested in this subject and am not trying stir anything up.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:10 am

I am just curious as to what opinions are on deliberately running against weaker competition in order to put titles and wins on a dog. I am not accusing anyone of doing it and not judging anyone. I am just asking how often it is done and what people's opinions on doing this are?

"Say it ain't so, Joe...sat it ain't so!!!" People are people everywhere...you're not surprised are you??? Judge the people as well as the dogs...the serious folks don't stack the deck...they take their licks no matter what the venue. They don't trial where they train, pick their friends as judges and they don't "pick" the competition....which could be hard to do anyway.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:21 am

I have been told that in AKC RETRIEVER TRIALS you can not get a title on your dog without a win in a all dog competition. So basically you can hide behind your dogs breed to collect some points, however you will have to go out to get a win against the big boys.

vols fan · Post by **vols fan** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:24 am

Tommyboy,i am new to trialing and after reading the post you mention i went back to see who i was running against.I placed in 9 of 12 stakes in 4 different states.Best i can tell that of the 33 or 34 dogs i was placed with, 20+ were already champions.Many more were competing that were trying to finish up one or the other.I didn't go to a trial because i thought it was less competition. I usually look for a trial that will show my dogs ability, more south ga or n fla. than a trial that a dog has to run an adge.These trials are locale and that may be what some folks were talking about.i am a few pts away from finishing a champion and i will be thrilled if taht happens.If someone else don't like it or thinks it's cheap then that's their oppinion and all have one. Just like some pics i put up a few days ago, most liked them but one guy called me and told me i shouldn't pose my dog for pics.No posing, that's how he hit the birds . Good luck if you try it,it can be fun and with good compitition. Thanks,Tony

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:44 am

I believe that the vast majority of folks run with the motto "Go where you can, and run what you brought."

As for the concept of going to a particular trial for the "easy points", all it takes is one other dog entered that is of similar calibre to your dog and the win is no longer easy, regardless of how many other dog may be entered.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:07 am

I dont know about entering vs lesser competition, but I have seen first hand (retriever hunt tests in Bemidji MN) that judges definately play favorties. I was not running in the Master, I was in the senior, and was asked to help in the master, and I happily did,fun to watch/learn. What I learned is, at least at that test, it was a "good ol boys club" Now, I have gone to others and participated in other Masters and it wasnt that way at all, but this one, from a guy who knew absolutely nobody running, was a joke and a bit disturbing.

There was 2 "trainers" running multiple dogs, who could run whenever they wanted basically. Never had to wait in blinds as they had the excuse "I ave too many dogs so Im jumping right in". Which led some guys who were there with 1 dog, trying to have fun, and have a good experience, wait in the blinds for 2 or 3 dogs longer than they should have. It was 90 degress.

Then, once between dogs, the gunners needed birds, so a kid brought them a crate of ducks, and part way there, he set it down to rest. After about a minute, finished bringing it the rest of the way. A young kid with one dog ran next and, to me, looked like he should have passed, found out at the end, he didnt. The next guy was one of the pro "trainers" Well, his dog got hung up, supposedly, where the duck crate was set down and wouldnt leave. He was allowed to actually take his dog into the blind, let the next guy run, then proceed to run again. He passed.

Not one dog, other than dogs with the 2 trainers with many dogs, passed. And they were given special treatment, undoubtedly. On Sunday, they actaully made the judges "reset" a blind retrieve stating it was too difficult, claiming it would be too difficult. It was ridicolous. Im sure doesnt happen often, but it does happen.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:29 am

Ive got to be the least knowledgable person on this forum when it comes to trailing so excuse my ignorance but i want to get my pup into it one day just as i want to get her into anything else to get titles and watch her work, keep her fresh, train her along side of other bird dogs and meet lots of people with the same passion.. but ive been following alot of the posts and what im confused about is this..why does it matter if your dog is entered against dogs with less titles under its belt or other breeds..are they always necessarily "weaker"?..are the dogs not there because not only are you trying to win and title the dog but also to make them stronger in the sport and keep them fresh by running them?..i mean could it not be your dog won on a day not only because of its abilities but because it had a good day?..could the same thing not be said for the same dog who loses on a day with the same abilities to win but just had a bad day?..why not more support for eachother and enjoy the dogs and the company?...ruth

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:36 am

When I started doing all this I didn't care who did what and other things I couldn't control. 4 years into it and I still don't care what Tom, "bleep", or Harry is doing. I go and do what I'm going to do and am happy at the end of every trial regardless of how things go! Point is don't worry about all this crap!!!!!!!!!!!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:43 am

Tommyboy, do you mean northeast Oklahoma? If so, let me know and I can make sure your friend knows about any walking dog events that come up, if that's what y'all are looking for. We also have non-sanctioned STR at the dog club and I can tell you whose cooking not to eat there.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:24 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:When I started doing all this I didn't care who did what and other things I couldn't control. 4 years into it and I still don't care what Tom, "bleep", or Harry is doing. I go and do what I'm going to do and am happy at the end of every trial regardless of how things go! Point is don't worry about all this crap!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely!!

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:59 pm

Thanks Casey but I meant NE as in he lives where Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey sort of converge. He is originally from Oklahoma and his wife is originally from right outside New York City so when they got married out here in Oklahoma they moved back there with their kids where her job as a nurse paid big dividends and he got his electronics engineering degree and they both make over six figures a year now. With all that said he is still just a good ole boy redneck from Oklahoma that I grew up with and always will be. He still wears boots and jeans and has a PU truck on top of his Subaru Outback work car. He is still one of the best friends a person could ever ask for and I am sending him a couple of Pointers and he is sending me a Teacup Yorkie for my wife.

Gotta make the wife happy.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:12 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Thanks Casey but I meant NE as in he lives where Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey sort of converge. He is originally from Oklahoma and his wife is originally from right outside New York City so when they got married out here in Oklahoma they moved back there with their kids where her job as a nurse paid big dividends and he got his electronics engineering degree and they both make over six figures a year now. With all that said he is still just a good ole boy redneck from Oklahoma that I grew up with and always will be. He still wears boots and jeans and has a PU truck on top of his Subaru Outback work car. He is still one of the best friends a person could ever ask for and I am sending him a couple of Pointers and he is sending me a Teacup Yorkie for my wife. Gotta make the wife happy.

I hope he does well. Your pedigrees are nice.

Sorry about the TYT. Not a fan of killer hairballs.

Do yourself a favor and order some NutriCal. Those little boogers are hypoglycemic. I see a lot of them where I work. Not sure any of them have ever touched the ground.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:15 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Thanks Casey but I meant NE as in he lives where Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey sort of converge. He is originally from Oklahoma and his wife is originally from right outside New York City so when they got married out here in Oklahoma they moved back there with their kids where her job as a nurse paid big dividends and he got his electronics engineering degree and they both make over six figures a year now. With all that said he is still just a good ole boy redneck from Oklahoma that I grew up with and always will be. He still wears boots and jeans and has a PU truck on top of his Subaru Outback work car. He is still one of the best friends a person could ever ask for and I am sending him a couple of Pointers and he is sending me a Teacup Yorkie for my wife. Gotta make the wife happy.

Smart man Tommy, when mama's happy everybody's happy

.....ruth

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:20 pm

When ever I put my dog down all I am asking for is the judges opinion and I have never failed to get it, win or lose. The days I win all of the other dogs were part of the weaker competition and the days I lose I am part of the weaker competition. That changes from day to day, stake to stake, and is impossible to predict.

Ezzy

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote:When ever I put my dog down all I am asking for is the judges opinion and I have never failed to get it, win or lose. The days I win all of the other dogs were part of the weaker competition and the days I lose I am part of the weaker competition. That changes from day to day, stake to stake, and is impossible to predict.

Ezzy

That pretty much answers my question ezzy and confirms my thoughts on it thanks..and the other things i want to know is if you enter your dog in these trials and your dog wins what kind of cash is 1st prize?..is that any part of the reason folks get angry at a guy/gal entering a dog that they feel shouldnt be there cause then they turn around and win to claim the cash prize?..the anger doesnt come down to the money does it?.....ruth

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:47 pm

AKC does not offer cash premiums and you are not allowed to accept money as a premium in Field sanctioned stakes if you are running as an amateur. Yes, it is about money at some levels and pros must win to keep clients happy, but it's more about self-righteous ego than anything else when it comes to unpleasantness.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:04 pm

If someone were to travel the country seeking the trials that they considered the easiest, I would consider the title less deserving than someone who went to all the trials in their local area (say 200 miles), and competed at every event even if they considered some events easier.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:37 pm

I don’t think you understanding what Tommy is asking.

A number of years ago when I was just getting started there was a first rate GSP that was very tough to beat. She had just won the nationals and the owner ran her in a Wiem trial, which was on his pros training grounds. I saw it as a complete dishonor to the national title and when I asked, the answer was “a win is a win”. That truly left me thinking, what an insult to the dog and the title and it seemed to me that maybe that dog did not deserve the title NFC. Well of course she deserved the title, the owner did NOT deserve that outstanding animal. Well do you think this was ethical and basically, do you believe it’s morally correct to run, let’s say a GSP in a walking Wiem trial, or an AF pointer in a Visla trial and so on. I don’t want to make it sound like I am picking on Wiems, or Vislas, I am not. How about running your FC in a gun dog stake rather than the limited stake, because the competition is not as severe, how does that make you feel.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:45 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote: How about running your FC in a gun dog stake rather than the limited stake, because the competition is not as severe, how does that make you feel.

No, you run your FC in a Gun Dog stake because it is somewhere to run your dog and it does the trial community a great service by keeping the level of competition high so that lesser dogs cannot squeak easy wins. Not running an NFC in weekend trails, Weim trials, etc. etc. is a disservice to the dog and to the sport. Everyone deserves to be able to see what a top shelf dog is and where the bar should be. If everyone followed your advice there really and truly would be a bunch of cheap FC titles around because all the good dogs stayed home.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:48 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:AKC does not offer cash premiums and you are not allowed to accept money as a premium in Field sanctioned stakes if you are running as an amateur. Yes, it is about money at some levels and pros must win to keep clients happy, but it's more about self-righteous ego than anything else when it comes to unpleasantness.

Thanks for the info cc....ruth

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:53 pm

Not a problem in my book. If your odg is eligible to run then you have as much right to be there as anyone else. And if my dog is lucky enough to win a NFC that doesn't in any way say I shouldn't run anyplace else, since there is no dog that is lucky enough to winn everytime out. They don't disqualify the winner of the Kentucky Derby from other races or Jimmie Johnson fron any NASCAR races, or any show of any type of livestock because it has won before. And as you will note some of those horses, cars, or dogs, never win again. Take your win with humility, be happy you were lucky enough to win, and then get back with the crowd that is hopig to win next week where you all start out equal again.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:01 pm

In that model, an AKC NFC should not be allowed to return to competition to earn an AFC unless it was in National competition.

That's silly.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:22 pm

Just a question

If you were trying to see where your dog ranked at the end of the year regardless if your dog is an FC/AFC for GSP's I thought you needed to enter both Gundog and Limited stakes. Is this correct or not? I am not sure that many people would enter a gundog stake just because the competition was LESS but for a reason like I just stated OR to run a dog in a stake that was convenient for the handler...
I have run against many FC/AFC in gundog stakes and I never thought twice about this.
Jen

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:23 pm

Joe, remember you have a breed where you have a Championship or Classics almost every weekend in some neck of the US. So the GSP guys have choices. They can choose to finish a dog and then move onto NGSPA events and run championships and only Championships if they want to stay active.

Britts also have these choices and they also have Britt only weekend trials everywhere, every single weekend. Many of us don't have those options and if we want to run our dogs, it has to be in weekend trials, where and when we can. The GWP club is having our first Classic in Nebraska in May and we hope others around the US will jump in and have one in their neck of the country. Other than our Nationals... this is the only "name" event for our breed.

I wish there were more all breed Ch's to go to. Right now we have the AKC event and the All Breed- nothing else that I can think of? We had all intentions of going to the All Breed this year, but unfortunately the judging panel didn't appear to be open to an "off" breed having any shot of even getting looked at. Too bad, maybe next year. If that organization would like to see more participation of breeds other then Shorthairs they need to look at the judges they choose. Give us an even playing field... and we'll be there. Guess it's like any dock tailed dog thinking they will get a shot at a pointer trial, probably not gonna happen.

I digress.... I agree with the others who say.. Bring em on! Run those Ch's and NFC's... make us beat you. When they/we do it just makes us/them look better! I don't like to run my finished dogs in Gun Dog stakes, but if it's the only stake open to us.... why not? Im not looking for lesser competition to run against... just looking for trials to run in period!
Fuzz

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:32 pm

Just exactly what is a "pointer trial?"

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:39 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Just exactly what is a "pointer trial?"

The kind you run your dogs in!

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:48 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Just exactly what is a "pointer trial?"

I would assume AF Open stakes. Just my opinion. But I run my AF bred pointer in any stake that I can, cause they are close. But I do plan on hitting the hour stuff this fall.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:52 pm

ACooper wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Just exactly what is a "pointer trial?"
The kind you run your dogs in!

Funny, I didn't know pointers came with long hair and short tails. Guess they do and that's how my boys snuck in. Should have caught me with the dark dog, though. Maybe they figured he was just there to clear the course of deer.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:52 pm

Look at page two on this premium
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... y=CJHij8oF

Talk about cheapening a Title sorry but if you can't place your dog against a good dog maybe you should re evaluate what you are doing

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:02 pm

fuzznut wrote:We had all intentions of going to the All Breed this year, but unfortunately the judging panel didn't appear to be open to an "off" breed having any shot of even getting looked at. Too bad, maybe next year. If that organization would like to see more participation of breeds other then Shorthairs they need to look at the judges they choose. Give us an even playing field... and we'll be there. Guess it's like any dock tailed dog thinking they will get a shot at a pointer trial, probably not gonna happen.
Fuzz

Well, I can guess where you placed in the All-Breed when you didn't show up!
Personally I have never came across a judge that wasn't genuinely interested in putting up the best dog of the day. From what I have seen, if you want to run in a pointer trial with a dock tailed dog you better bring a lot of dog because it takes a lot of dog to win. If you don't show up on a presupposed idea that you have no chance then you are admitting you don't believe you have enough dog IMO.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:16 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:AKC does not offer cash premiums and you are not allowed to accept money as a premium in Field sanctioned stakes if you are running as an amateur. Yes, it is about money at some levels and pros must win to keep clients happy, but it's more about self-righteous ego than anything else when it comes to unpleasantness.

From the AFTCA Guidelines -
Can an amateur accept a cash purse in an amateur stake?
—It is permissible for an amateur to accept a cash purse in an amateur stake conducted by a member
of the A.F.T.C.A., provided he is the owner of the winning dog. It is not permissible for an amateur
handler to accept a cash purse in an amateur stake if he is not the owner of the winning dog. Such
acceptance would be grounds for declaring him a professional. If a cash purse is accepted by the
owner of a winning dog in an amateur stake, an A.F.T.C.A. certificate cannot be issued for that win.
7
If the cash purse is refused, an A.F.T.C.A. certificate will be issued if the club attests that the purse
was refused.
Amateurs Accepting Cash Purses In Open Stakes
Can an amateur accept a cash purse in an open stake?
—It is permissible for an amateur owner to accept a cash purse in an open stake. It is not permissible
for an amateur handler who is not the owner of the winning dog to accept a cash purse. Such
acceptance would be grounds for declaring him a professional. If an amateur owner refuses a cash
purse in an open stake conducted by a member club of the A.F.T.C.A. (All-age, Shooting Dog, or
Derby), an A.F.T.C.A. certificate will be issued for such win, provided the win is reported by the club
and the club attests that the purse was refused.

Sometimes in AKC trials there are money stakes - not usually set amounts of money but more likely percentages of the entry money for that stake.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:54 pm

And in 99% of the cases if a pro is handler is handling the dog he will keep the cash prizes.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:00 pm

ezzy333 wrote:And in 99% of the cases if a pro is handler is handling the dog he will keep the cash prizes.

Ezzy

That's usually in the contract. They couldn't survive on client fees alone. It's not a profitable career.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:06 pm

ezzy333 wrote:And in 99% of the cases if a pro is handler is handling the dog he will keep the cash prizes.

Ezzy

Really?..so whats in it for you as the owner if you are paying for the dogs entry, campaigning, fees to leave it will the trainer, not training or handling your own dog AND you dont even get the cash prizes?..is it common for people to own and handle their own dogs or is it more common for pro's to handle them?....thanks...ruth

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:13 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:And in 99% of the cases if a pro is handler is handling the dog he will keep the cash prizes.

Ezzy
That's usually in the contract. They couldn't survive on client fees alone. It's not a profitable career.

Not sure you are right about that either as there are a lot of them that seem to prosper quite well with just training and don't even get handler fees. But I am sure it helps the ones that do.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:20 pm

That's usually in the contract. They couldn't survive on client fees alone. It's not a profitable career.

What is the going rate for trainers? How many dogs do most trainers handle? I guess a profitable career depends on interpretation.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:37 pm

Four to Five hundred a month plus all expenses they incurr. The number of dogs they have at anyone time varies considerably but some may have ten or more. One of the Brit trainers I know probably has twenty or more much of the year.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Four to Five hundred a month plus all expenses they incurr. The number of dogs they have at anyone time varies considerably but some may have ten or more. One of the Brit trainers I know probably has twenty or more much of the year.

Ezzy

I would really like to know where there is a trial dog slot at $400/month + exp. Have you seen the price of fuel and feed lately? That price won't get you puppy intro where I live.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:35 pm

Personally I have never came across a judge that wasn't genuinely interested in putting up the best dog of the day. From what I have seen, if you want to run in a pointer trial with a dock tailed dog you better bring a lot of dog because it takes a lot of dog to win. If you don't show up on a presupposed idea that you have no chance then you are admitting you don't believe you have enough dog IMO.
slistoe

Slistoe, most times I agree with you and it's pretty rare that I've run into judges that are outwardly biased. But we all know there are times when there is someone in the saddle either we don't respect, or know are pretty breed blind. No sense spending $175 in entry fees and expenses if you are pretty darn certain your dogs won't even get watched.

"Pointer trial"- American field pointer trial. You can enter, but chances are pretty slim of getting anything. Just the way it is.
Fuzz

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:39 pm

My trainer is $450 a month no handling fees,no bird fees,& no contract & he wins on the Nat Level!!He does keep any money prises though as do all the trainers I know of he also divides the fuel bill between his clients.I couldn't buy the gas to travel the trials for that. Oh I almost forgot the more dogs you have the cheaper it is the 2nd dog is half price not sure after that.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:47 pm

If you have a dog that will lay it down and get the judges attention it can be done
December 2-5
California Bird Dog Championship
Host: Fresno BDC
Grounds: Setter Springs Ranch, Maricopa, CA
Judges: B. Sullivan, J. Gilbertson – 30 starters
CH – Youngstown Thrill Seeker – PF – N Mason/R Robertson
RU-CH – Bust-N-Out – PM – J Hignite/R Robertson
Open Shooting Dog
Judges: E. Mayhew, B. Sullivan – 18 Starters
1st – Waygoing Hoot – PM - M Stephens
2nd – Waygoing Tizzy – PF – M Stephens
3rd – Bitter Creek Roxie – SF – W Owen
Open Derby (All-Age standards)
Judges: E. Mauck, W. Owen
1st – Gertrude – SF – H Meyer/S Twer
2nd – Tucalota's Ruby – PF – E Mayhew
3rd – K Nine Tucalota Chance – BF – E Mayhew
Open Derby (Shooting Dog Standards)
Judges – J Shultz, S. Johnson – 11 starters
1st – Barbara's Investment – S Twer
2nd – Erin's Rough River – M Leadbetter/S Twer
3rd – Tucalotta's Hullabaloo – E Mayhew
-------------------------------------------------
Bill West Derby Classic
1st Place: K-Nine Tucaluta Chance
Ed Mayhew Owner/ Handler
Reg # 1616435 Brittany Male
Sire: Maxwell’s blew By You
Dam: K Nine’s Peek-a-boo

2nd Place; Cash’n In
Jim Schultz Owner/ Handler
Reg # 1621604 Eng Pointer Male
Sire: No Limit Rebuy
Dam: No limit Belle

3rd Place: Sand Creek Holly
Dr. C A Hjerpe Owner/ Handler
Reg # 1620804 Eng Pointer F
Sire: Wells Fargo First Dude
Dam: Wells Fargo Mollie

------------------------------------------------
http://www.ruidosonews.com/ruidoso-sports/ci_17693412

The winners of the New Mexico Open Derby Classic were Jim Schultz of Arizona with his pointer male, Cash'n In, Runner-up was Ed Mayhew of California with his Brittany male, Knine Tucalota Chance, third place went to professional dog trainer, Bill Gibbons and his setter female, Magma's Cactus Wren from Arizona.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:58 pm

fuzznut wrote: "Pointer trial"- American field pointer trial. You can enter, but chances are pretty slim of getting anything. Just the way it is.
Fuzz

Like the time I ran under a judge that runs All Age Pointers and ran in the All Age Invitational once. My bracemate was his brother. I believe I placed second in that stake with my Brittany. The brother was left out. My dog had a great day and outdid her average performance.
Chances are slim because what most of us consider great dogs of GSP, GWP, Brittany simply cannot hang with the average competitive pointer in speed, nose, style and application, not because of some conspiracy of judging.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:00 pm

fuzznut wrote:
"Pointer trial"- American field pointer trial. You can enter, but chances are pretty slim of getting anything. Just the way it is.
Fuzz

If you have a dog that can find birds, handle them impeccably and finish strong and tight, you will stand as good a chance of placing as anyone. I've seen as many as five different breeds at NBHA events, although a GWP was not one of them. Things won't change until those who desire change participate.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:15 pm

I know a trainer in my area who used to trial and won big with setters both red and english all over the country but now just trains. I once took one of my setter females to him to be bred by his personal gundog and he took me out to his huge metal barn where there were about 30 dogs staked out because he was finishing pouring concrete for his kennel pads and he said, Look at all these young dogs. I looked around and stated that they were all nice looking dogs and there were a lot of them. He stated to me that all of their owners made over six figures a year. I know he charged around $500 a month just to train them as trial dogs. There were Weims, Setters, Pointers, GSP's, GWP's about every breed of bird dog you could imagine and he made a very good living at what he did which is why he gave up trialing himself and handling dogs at trials to just train dogs for other owners and handlers. Please do not tell me there is no profit to be made by just training dogs because I know different. As has been stated I guess profit and success is subjective and in the eye of the beholder. By the way $15,000 a month for anywhere from 3 to 6 months of training to break a dog for the way that trainer did amounts to $45,000-$90,000 for just those 30 dogs over a 3-6 month period- subtract a $35 bag of dog food per dog each month which comes out to $3150-$6300 for those dogs in that same 3-6 month period also subtract about $50 a month for the water bill to water the dogs and clean the kennels and you come out with a $150-$300 for that bill. Let's figure the dogs have their shots when they arrive and you will worm them once while they are there with Safeguard Horse Paste Wormer as most large operations do and you can figure getting 5 adult dogs wormed out of each tube of wormer at $8 a tube and you have an expense of roughly $50 for that same period of 3-6 months. So you can figure your expenses are going to be anywhere from $3350-$6650 for that 3-6 month period. Lets not nitpick with gas expenses here because the trainer I know lives right at his training grounds and owns the ground he trains on so that is going to be a non factor. So on the low side you are looking clearing $41,650 for 3 months and $83,350 for 6 months and you can do this twice a year if you have the clientele to back it up. You can figure in the price of pen raised birds and that is going to increase you overhead as well but not so much that it isn't profitable. Wow that is hardly worth the effort is it?

steamer · Post by **steamer** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:32 pm

im as green they come but some day i would like to run in the local club trials or local nstra trials and would love the chance to run my backyard/ beanfield trained mutt against some big name pro trained dogs. JMHO but i dont think the dog would know the other dog is an FC and unless the dog just lays down you should score a few a points and brag a little that your dog did ok against the big boys

Texasdogtrainer · Post by **Texasdogtrainer** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:45 pm

Tommy,

Don't be fooled about all the money in dog training. Most full time dog trainer don't retire in a deep wealth and supporting a family on a dog trainers income is not advisable. There is alot of expense that exist in dog training and many trainers that talks about the money they make is typically not making much. When it comes to field trialing and putting titles on dogs in not an easy thing in any capacity. When someone wins a Championship, Classic or weekend placement there is several people that didn't win but before the start of the trial, everyone thought they are going to win. Save your cash and go run in a trial, the experience with help shape your ideas of field trialing.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:58 pm

Texasdogtrainer wrote:Tommy,

Don't be fooled about all the money in dog training. Most full time dog trainer don't retire in a deep wealth and supporting a family on a dog trainers income is not advisable. There is alot of expense that exist in dog training and many trainers that talks about the money they make is typically not making much. When it comes to field trialing and putting titles on dogs in not an easy thing in any capacity. When someone wins a Championship, Classic or weekend placement there is several people that didn't win but before the start of the trial, everyone thought they are going to win. Save your cash and go run in a trial, the experience with help shape your ideas of field trialing.

Nice jump off the diving board.

Speaking as a business owner, not dog related, taxes and insurance alone will eat up a chunk of change. Thirty dogs on a one man operation wouldn't get much time per dog, either.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:14 pm

Don't get me wrong, Im not afraid of the competition, I have one that happens to be as good as any dog out there right now and he's done quite well against all comers in some pretty stiff company. And I don't believe in conspiracy theories... if I did I wouldn't be in the breed I'm in.
Glad to hear you are all entering the big pointer championships. I'll be looking for your names on the brace sheets. Hope to see you all in the ribbons on a regular basis!
Congrats to those of you who have.
Fuzz

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:32 pm

No one mentioned bird costs..It is huge. There is also many other things. Ammo, blank and live...Guns, blank pistols, kennel supplies, hauling suppplies, kennel licenses, insurance, vet, repairs and maintance, blah, blah blah. I just did my taxes, so it is all fresh in my head

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:36 pm

Tommy, think you may have forgotten a couple of costs for trainers....
land
taxes
mortgage
maintence on house and kennels
fencing and other such goodies
health insurance
auto insurance
auto/truck
horses
horse trailers
insurance for above
liability insurance for dogs, horses, guns etc
vets
food for humans
kids bills
etc. etc. etc.

Some trainers do make a decent living. But it's a 24/7 job and then you have all us goofy owners to deal with. God Bless and Good Luck. They have to love what they do, to do it!