Watering down a Title

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:14 pm

I was told about a premium sent out which I couldn't even believe would be allowed to be sent out but sure enough my friend forwarded me the premium he was sent for a trial and there it was highlighted in green.

This one Kinda left me speechless. If you can't beat a titled dog then you better get or breed a better dog or better training This stuff does nothing but hurt the breed as a whole and cheapen the whole picture. To think there are some dogs out there with DC's on them earned in such a manner.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:07 pm

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:14 pm

It is a part of the structure of the rules in the Conformation Show world - some folks must think it is the way it should be. More ribbons for everyone.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:30 pm

I think it is done this way Arlette because, in Open anyway there are points awarded only for 1st place. (unless it goes to a 5 pt, which there are not many around here). So it is just an unwritten courtesy to move to Limited Stakes when you are finished. That is how it was explained to me..Never seen it written tho. Same in shows, once finished you go to the BOB competition.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:55 pm

I'm with Brenda - that's pretty much the unwritten rule as I've always heard it. I've never seen anyone actually put it in a premium, though.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:02 pm

I think you missed reading what is highlighted in Green They are asking that the dogs that already have TITLES do not enter

This has nothing to do with limited stakes

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:16 pm

Sorry but again if a dog can't win with any real competition then what good is that title...makes it worthless in my book I don't care about the show I know dogs that are rushed through when they are young to get titled before they go out or dogs that are taught to stack in and I understand selecting judges that will look and put up field dogs over total show bred...Bottom line the fundamental being of our dogs is FIELD and this sullies that

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:01 pm

kninebirddog wrote:I think you missed reading what is highlighted in Green They are asking that the dogs that already have TITLES do not enter

This has nothing to do with limited stakes

Well, no, I can read it. I think it's pretty inappropriate to put verbage like that in your premium, unwritten rule or not.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:05 pm

phermes1 wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:I think you missed reading what is highlighted in Green They are asking that the dogs that already have TITLES do not enter

This has nothing to do with limited stakes
Well, no, I can read it. I think it's pretty inappropriate to put verbage like that in your premium, unwritten rule or not.

I agree very inappropriate ..

I think it hurts trials and breeds to dummy down trials like that. I thought trials were about the best dogs or dogs doing their best showing their best.... maybe I missed something :roll:

TexasAggie09 · Post by **TexasAggie09** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:08 pm

Looking at it from a different perspective.....maybe it is to encourage new people to the sport.

Think about it. Alot of new people are hesitant to trial because they are intimidated by it. They think their dog has no chance against seasoned trial competition. So they just don't attend the trial. This little caveat may encourage those people to enter the trial.

A gun dog stake is not judged to the standards as a broke shooting dog or all age stake. Thus it is a stake a new person (unsure about trials) would most likely enter. I think they are catering to the new field trialer in hopes to increase the participation in the sport. This is at the expense of veterans such as you and I, but oh well.

Once again, I am not saying i agree with it (I don't agree with it), but I can see some good intentions behind it.

TA'09

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:05 pm

TexasAggie09 wrote:Looking at it from a different perspective.....maybe it is to encourage new people to the sport.

Think about it. Alot of new people are hesitant to trial because they are intimidated by it. They think their dog has no chance against seasoned trial competition. So they just don't attend the trial. This little caveat may encourage those people to enter the trial.

A gun dog stake is not judged to the standards as a broke shooting dog or all age stake. Thus it is a stake a new person (unsure about trials) would most likely enter. I think they are catering to the new field trialer in hopes to increase the participation in the sport. This is at the expense of veterans such as you and I, but oh well.

Once again, I am not saying i agree with it (I don't agree with it), but I can see some good intentions behind it.

TA'09

Gundog stake is only about the range the dogs run they still have to do same work on birds

The Derby and Puppy stakes are ones that are not judged to adult stakes levels.
.

and sorry I do not see any benefits from it and I just don't get why anyone would want to lower the standards by taking out the titled dogs it defeats the whole purpose of trials. Trials are to show our dogs where they are judged by their performances and sorry if a dog can't win against a titled dog then it doesn't deserve to win and I would sincerely hope that the judges of those trials if performances were not up to a winning dogs standards they would withhold those placements which counted for points.
And if a new person can't understand that Sorry but hopefully after learning what trials are for they would soon understand and agree.

If we constantly lower the standards why have any at all..might as well give everyone a title just for registering their dogs

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:59 pm

I think there is confusion of the meaning of "Gun Dog" between AKC and AF walking stakes here.

Onk · Post by **Onk** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:34 pm

This is the "everyone is a winner" theory. Same as kids not being allowed to play dodge ball in schools because there is only one winner and the slower "big boned kids", insert picture of me in 8th grade, are not fast enough to win and always get creamed. Or maybe it is more like the everyone finished so you get a medal/ribbon theory. Don't know much about trials, but I was always taught " if you want to be the best, you have to beat the best" theory. This is just IMHO!

BillGraves · Post by **BillGraves** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:44 am

Sounds a little like *cough* share the wealth *cough* socialism there! It happens with our kids these days too...everyone gets a trophy regardless if they won or not.

Bill

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:38 am

That's really inappropriate. Who cares what the club prefers?
I wonder if they also inform their judges as to what kind of dog they 'prefer' to win?
And what would they do with a dog that goes in OGD with nine points on Saturday, wins, but is entered in AGD on Sunday?

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:05 am

I guess that would be acceptable, he could still go for his amateur field champion title.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:34 am

What I see in the Premium is they do not want finished dogs entering in OGD, or a finished dog entered in AGD. It says nothing about them entering Limited Stakes, which is where most finished dogs enter...Why do you think NSTRA developed the Amateur division Arlette...So people did not have to run against already finished dogs...It was not for people Am, but dog Am.....I never thought NSTRA needed that, but that is why they did it. You could imagine how NSTRA people would feel running against 5x CH's if their were points only in 1st pl....

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:54 am

I can honestly see both sides of this discussion.......... really, I can.

I will offer up the following for consideration:

If your dog is already an AFC, what does it have to prove/gain by running in an (AKC) AGD stake if an ALGD stake is being run at the same trial? Wouldn't the ALGD stake be the stake where such a dog would continue to prove it's mettle? Now, if there isn't an ALGD stake being run at the trial in question- that's a different story.

Same goes if your dog is already a FC, what does it have to prove/gain by running in an (AKC) OGD stake if an OLGD stake is being run at the same trial? Wouldn't the OLGD stake be the stake where such a dog would continue to prove it's mettle? Now, if there isn't an OLGD stake being run at the trial in question- again that's a different story.

Just to be clear- I don't feel that language like that should ever be printed in a FT premium. It's just a courtesy that was explained to me some time ago that I simply took for granted.

Rob

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:08 am

I agree Arlette. That's friggin' sad.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:16 am

A little more to chew on

Does keeping competition to a minimum make a mediocre dog any better?

Wouldn't a proven finished dog be a preferable bracemate to a green dog, instead of another God-Knows-What-It'll-Do bracemate? Is it an advantage for a less expereinced handler to have savvy handler as a bracemate as opposed to someone who may be equally green?

Where does a finished dog go when there are very few limited stakes offered? Should he be left in the dog box in deference to the ones chasing points?

Should NFCs/NAFCs avoid local trials altogether, especially breed restricted trials?

Do finished dogs never blow up, bobble, or have a bad day?

In addition to the tradition that finished dogs stick to limited stakes, there is also the unwritten tradition that limited dogs are held to a higher standard although there is only one written gundog standard (with the exception of range in walking stakes). Should green dogs be 'preferred' from limited stakes so as not to lower their quaility?

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:23 am

shags wrote:Should green dogs be 'preferred' from limited stakes so as not to lower their quaility?

If a dog has qualified to run in a Limited stake- I'd argue that they aren't "green" any more.

Rob

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:32 am

GrayDawg wrote:
shags wrote:Should green dogs be 'preferred' from limited stakes so as not to lower their quaility?
If a dog has qualified to run in a Limited stake- I'd argue that they aren't "green" any more.

Rob

A derby win q's a dog for limited....green as grass.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:02 am

snips wrote:What I see in the Premium is they do not want finished dogs entering in OGD, or a finished dog entered in AGD. It says nothing about them entering Limited Stakes, which is where most finished dogs enter...Why do you think NSTRA developed the Amateur division Arlette...So people did not have to run against already finished dogs...It was not for people Am, but dog Am.....I never thought NSTRA needed that, but that is why they did it. You could imagine how NSTRA people would feel running against 5x CH's if their were points only in 1st pl....

As for the NSTRA I like you jumped in head first, I felt pretty darn good when I came off the field and beat my brace mate I also strived harder in training when I was beat over some thing my dog didn't do or learned to do better when it was a handling error that I did. It is called Stepping up to the plate and what I did go out and won the brace or placed when I was braced against a known Good handler or dog those placements really Meant something to me..I flat out earned those placements.

But then I come from the age if you want something get out there and EARN IT

Post by BillGraves » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:44 am
Sounds a little like *cough* share the wealth *cough* socialism there! It happens with our kids these days too...everyone gets a trophy regardless if they won or not.

Bill

If this wasn't so true this would have been funny

As for why dogs already titled dogs are continue to trial...They go for other things then just that FC AFC ..there is performance points where they garner points for the trials they win then there is qualifying for national trials which this very premium is asking those TITLED dog's to give up so now a lessor dog is qualified to go to the national trial where that should be the better dogs running but then I guess we should drop our standards for those trials also

When you look up a dogs record for a potential to breed to your dog which one do you rather breed to? a dog that could only win when the real competition was asked to stay out or the dog that could go to any trial and win.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:07 am

Wyndancer wrote:
GrayDawg wrote:
shags wrote:Should green dogs be 'preferred' from limited stakes so as not to lower their quaility?
If a dog has qualified to run in a Limited stake- I'd argue that they aren't "green" any more.

Rob
A derby win q's a dog for limited....green as grass.

If they're broke and ready to run in any GD stake (Open or Amateur) and they have a Derby win- I'll again submit that they aren't as green as some would like to purport.

Rob

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:10 am

Here's even a little more to think about.

A Brittany is required to requalify to run at their breed Nationals every single year. This means they have to get a 1st in an OGD stake with 13 starters at a Brittany club trial, a 2nd in an OGD stake with 20 starters...more placements qualify in hour stakes...well, you see where this is going.

If they prefer an FC not run in an OGD stake, then that FC has no way to requalify for gun dog nationals. Not really fair, and not really supporting the breed.

So there is no unwritten rule about champions running at weekend trials in only limited stakes in Brittanys. There for a while, every single time I put my dog on the ground, I had to beat 2 NGDC's (NGDC FC/AFC Buck's Hit The Road Jack and NGDC FC/AFC Hit's for Pete's Sake), and a dozen other FC's.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:13 am

Karen wrote:If they prefer an FC not run in an OGD stake, then that FC has no way to requalify for gun dog nationals. Not really fair, and not really supporting the breed.

Couldn't these dogs run in an OLGD stake, win & qualify?

Rob

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:21 am

When you're trying to qualify a dog, you enter it when and where you can to do so. Two shots per weekend at the qualification is better odds than one, especially when the stakes have 30 or more dogs entered.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:35 am

shags wrote:When you're trying to qualify a dog, you enter it when and where you can to do so. Two shots per weekend at the qualification is better odds than one, especially when the stakes have 30 or more dogs entered.

Shags is absolutely right. We HAVE to qualify at a Brittany trial. There are MAYBE 2 or 3 OLGD stakes a season at Brittany trials in our region (northeast)....and half of those are hour stakes held during the week...not something us working folk can get to all the time. Our gundog stakes are always 25+ entries, so when you win one, you KNOW you got something done. It's just the way it is. But I have to tell you, when you're young dog goes out there and wins a 31 dog stake against 2 National Champions and a dozen other FC's, it's quite a feeling!

When we go to an off-breed trial, we enter where we need points since we can't qualify there.

I just don't think dumbing down the competition so more titles are given out is the right approach.

dlfl · Post by **dlfl** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:47 am

In 1996 at a AKC lure coursing event in Georgia over Easter weekend my titled dog, call name, Brady was moved into an open stake to make it a major. I was not asked and it pissed me off. I pulled him and re-entered him into the field champion stake. ( If they had asked I would of helped them out.) He went on too not only win the breed event but the best in event over all the other breeds.

At the next AKC Georgia event the man in charge of AKC’s lure coursing program was there and approached me. He had a stack of computer print out pages, of all the events held so far that year, listed by the dog names. He asked me to check my dog’s points and if I missed anything that was wrong I could not ask to have it corrected in the future. I didn’t have anything to check against the list and was trying to keep up on the current events going on at that time.

That cost Brady the number 1 ranking in AKC for that year. He was listed as #2 dog. The points from the Easter field trial were missing and he lost the #1 ranking by 3 points. And like the man promised, my appeal did not change anything let alone being answered by any person!

It is my opinion from this, that AKC back then was a crooked and corrupt organization ran by the same type of people. ( I changed this line to reflect to 1996 not now.)

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:50 am

These arguments can get really convoluted, especially as we have two parallel thoughts working in seperate threads. In the example Arlette gave above, it was the intention of a select few, who are more familiar and active in the Brittany show dog realm, and limited in the geopgraphic trials they can reach, to eliminate some competition. When they chose to make the staement in the premium they did add an OLGD stake. In the western Brittany club circuits there are only three active pros, maybe four if you add in one that handles multiple breeds, (that I know of,) three have 1 to say 5 britts to run; and 1 has 20-25. A trial is made or broke by the attendance of a single pro, and a club's decision of which stakes to open to multiple breeds.

So, it is easy to see that there are many points of view. A pro with 25 dogs is trying to qualify as many as he/she can to get to the nationals for their clients and their business, that is their job. The club is trying to keep up the interest of the passionate amateurs and especially the fringe trialers who cannot get to 5-6 states in a season to run a dozen trials.

I believe naturally competitive people with dogs who are truly capable of winning on a bigger stage seperate themselves eventually from the pack. Their behavior and interactions with people is the same as it is with their superior ability with a dog. deal with the situation or behavior and move on without carrying a bunch of emotion as heavy baggage, and expect to be disappointed so that when it happens it doesn't ruin your day. (eh Doc?) What does a title really mean? It will have some marketing value when you are selling puppies to the casual hunter market, but the hard core hunters and field trialers arent going to be impressed by a title squeaked out in 30 minute stakes over a number of years.

I don't believe rules, regulations or restrictions solve any of these issues. Frauds, fakes and know-it-alls are part of the fabric of field trial culture just like any other walk of life; and it really doesn't matter how they dress themselves its always clear, especially when they look in the mirror. Let them run where they want, soon enough we know a little about the dog and a whole lot about the person.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:02 am

I am not saying I agree with any of it....Just that it has always been told to me that is how it is...I will not run a finished dog in anything but Limited....I am not going to be the one under scrutiny for taking the points on a finished dog....That certainly does not mean there still aren't very nice dogs running in Open...or Am....

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:44 am

Onk wrote:This is the "everyone is a winner" theory. Same as kids not being allowed to play dodge ball in schools because there is only one winner and the slower "big boned kids", insert picture of me in 8th grade, are not fast enough to win and always get creamed. Or maybe it is more like the everyone finished so you get a medal/ribbon theory. Don't know much about trials, but I was always taught " if you want to be the best, you have to beat the best" theory. This is just IMHO!

Post by BillGraves » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:44 am
Sounds a little like *cough* share the wealth *cough* socialism there! It happens with our kids these days too...everyone gets a trophy regardless if they won or not.

Bingo!!!!!!!

Charlie

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:56 am

Hilarious - even by pointing breed "standards" for earning FC titles. (Which, even before the "please don't enter your FC" plea, was already the equivalent of playing 12 intrasquad games to qualify for the BCS "national championship game.")

nike, you were right in the other thread about retriever titles being earned only against all comers, as was Dave Quindt about the competition retrievers play against, if a little shy of actual numbers. Never run a stakes with fewer than 55 dogs (and that one occasion) and gone as high as 110. And there's only one NFC amongst all the retriever breeds per annum - and the dog wins that against all comers (qualifiers) too.

MG

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:04 am

crackerd wrote:Hilarious - even by pointing breed "standards" for earning FC titles. (Which, even before the "please don't enter your FC" plea, was already the equivalent of playing 12 intrasquad games to qualify for the BCS "national championship game.")

nike, you were right in the other thread about retriever titles being earned only against all comers, as was Dave Quindt about the competition retrievers play against, if a little shy of actual numbers. Never run a stakes with fewer than 55 dogs (and that one occasion) and gone as high as 110. And there's only one NFC amongst all the retriever breeds per annum - and the dog wins that against all comers (qualifiers) too.

MG

Shouldn't that say, "usually a black Lab wins that against all comers?"

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:06 pm

"Usually" would work, and would work even better alongside "black Lab male" - which makes for an even greater appreciation for handlers who get in there and compete against 100 other dogs (and occasionally earn AFC/FC) with goldens and Chessies and the lighter-colored Labs, especially females and those bred elsewhere and imported for running trials.

MG

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:20 pm

I read recently that there are about 11 Goldens with the title FC, seven were still competing and a few of those were 9 and 10 year old dogs.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:36 pm

Even more appreciation, nike - since the average age of retrievers running the all-age stakes is 6 1/2 - 7 years. For some lines of field-bred goldens, that's almost their life expectancy. A 12-year-old chocolate Lab won one of the opens I ran not too long ago - and qualified for the NRC. From which the NFC emerges, the only NFC for retrievers.

MG

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:42 pm

BillGraves wrote:Sounds a little like *cough* share the wealth *cough* socialism there! It happens with our kids these days too...everyone gets a trophy regardless if they won or not.

Bill

EXACTLY. I think everyone should get a participation ribbon so there are no feelings hurt. HAHAHA.

raven34 · Post by **raven34** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:23 pm

As I am reading the two threads discussing trials and competitions, I am very interested in the different opinions out there. Another question popped into my head. Seeing that some are opposed to the FC and the AFC running in non-limited stakes if they are offered then what is the opinion of a puppy/derby dog that the owner choses to keep running even though that puppy/derby dog has obtained its maximum points on both Amateur and Open sides. I have seen lots of people keep running pups/derby dogs until they age out even though those points won are useless to them, unless they were going for an end of year ranking.
On another note, I can see both sides of the running a FC/AFC in a non-limited stake, however all that must be achieved to be eligible for limited stakes, is a placement in a gundog stake or a DERBY WIN. The trials I have been to, which have mostly been horseback and some walking the same dogs are competing throughout the day . In Open with their pros and in amateur with their owners/amateur handlers. Some in all 4 stakes(OGD OGDL AGD AGDL). Many FC/AFC's are competing. Some already titled and others working on one or the other. When I see that we are braced with a titled dog I am actually pleased. How many of you have seen a green broke derby dog shag a bird in front of your dog and just hoped that your dog remained in position. Sometimes that more experienced refined dog brings out the best in your dog and allows it to show its stuff too. Perhaps I never thought twice about this because I thought it was just the way it was. Always learning something.....

Jen

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:08 pm

Seeing that some are opposed to the FC and the AFC running in non-limited stakes if they are offered then what is the opinion of a puppy/derby dog that the owner choses to keep running even though that puppy/derby dog has obtained its maximum points on both Amateur and Open sides.

once/if my puppy gets all her puppy/derby points she won't be run in those stakes anymore. i wouldn't want to pay $40-$50 a pop for something that doesn't count. as far as the "experience" part, well, again why pay $40-$50 to "train" when a weekend with friends or training day with a local club is cheaper.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:19 pm

raven34 wrote:. Seeing that some are opposed to the FC and the AFC running in non-limited stakes if they are offered then what is the opinion of a puppy/derby dog that the owner choses to keep running even though that puppy/derby dog has obtained its maximum points on both Amateur and Open sides. I have seen lots of people keep running pups/derby dogs until they age out event though those points won are useless, unless they were going for an end of year ranking,but never did I think twice about this. Jen

Sometimes those folks pay a B-I-G price down the road for doing that. That's why there are Derby Wonders who never hit the ground as broke dogs.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:17 pm

Seeing the breed club on the premium it surprises me not. If a FC or AFC is not allowed in open stakes the same should be true for a non titled dog to compete in the limited stake.

They got to beat em all IMO

What's next...................A honorary FC/AFC/NFC title if you play/support X amount of years ? Whole deal sounds like a jim jam setup crooked bunch of horse pooh to me.

dockgsp · Post by **dockgsp** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:03 pm

In the GSPCA world, to earn amateur GSP gun dog of the year, points are earned in both amateur and amateur limited stakes. If you are campaigning your dog for this title, you must run an AFC in both ama and ama limited.

shets114 · Post by **shets114** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:51 pm

If the champion doesn't win shouldn't they be degraded? Jeez they can't beat a non titled dog what good are they?

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:27 am

shets114 wrote:If the champion doesn't win shouldn't they be degraded? Jeez they can't beat a non titled dog what good are they?

You're being facetious, I hope.
If titled dogs always win, there wouldn't be any new champions, would there?

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:42 am

raven34 wrote:what is the opinion of a puppy/derby dog that the owner choses to keep running even though that puppy/derby dog has obtained its maximum points on both Amateur and Open sides. I have seen lots of people keep running pups/derby dogs until they age out even though those points won are useless to them, unless they were going for an end of year ranking.

Jen, I had to deal with this exact situation last fall once Katy pointed out in Derby by the middle of October (still lots of trials left on the schedule- mind you). I decided to only run her in Open Derby stakes so Katy could get more experience being handled by me from horseback). I figured we'd be running against more pros with dogs who had better manners to boot. This decision resulted in Katy & I not going to a few trials altogether as the OD stake was running on Saturdays- which conflicted with family commitments. But the 3-day trials that ran OD on Fridays we did attend and she was used by the judges more often than not. My reasoning for doing this was that Katy didn't need any more Derby points on the Amateur side, so I felt it was the right thing to do to leave the points for a dog that still needed them.

Then came the CVVC trial the first week of December- the last trial of the season for us. I couldn't run Katy in the OD as I was returning from a business trip the day the OD was being run (Sat). So at the last minute (day of closing) I entered her in the AD that was running on Sunday. She won that stake with 5 finds in 20 minutes and it was a bittersweet win. I still question whether or not I should have entered her at all.

Having gone through that- I can say with confidence that if I'm ever lucky enough to put an AFC on Katy, the only Amateur stakes I'll run her in at a weekend trial would would be ALGD. Again- if she's lucky enough to ever attain her FC, the only Open stakes she'll run in at weekend trials will be OLGD. AKC Regional Championships & NGSPA events are obviously a different story.

What I have learned about this discussion though is that Britts & GSP's are apples & oranges as far as any commonalities regarding qualifying for each respective breed's Nat'l Championship. I certainly understand now why the Brit folks do what they do regarding entering finished dogs in non-limited broke dog stakes.

Rob

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:20 am

GrayDawg wrote: I certainly understand now why the Brit folks do what they do regarding entering finished dogs in non-limited broke dog stakes.

It tells me that I shouldn't really care if I enter a FC, or a multiple NFC, in a Brit OGD stake. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Perhaps we should look at entering finished dogs like this. If your an Amateur running 1-2 dogs....run the dog where ever you want, when you want. But if you finished pooch is out with a pro, ask your pro to enter the finished pooch in OLGD.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:43 am

Wyndancer wrote:
GrayDawg wrote: I certainly understand now why the Brit folks do what they do regarding entering finished dogs in non-limited broke dog stakes.
It tells me that I shouldn't really care if I enter a FC, or a multiple NFC, in a Brit OGD stake. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Wyndancer, that's a very good point which escaped me up to this point. I guess I'd be willing to run a finished dog in a non-limited broke dog stake at a Brit trial, because such a stake should be littered with FC's/AFC's trying to qualify for their Nat'l Championship. So what's fair is fair. But still not at GSP trials though.............

Rob

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:55 am

GrayDawg wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
GrayDawg wrote: I certainly understand now why the Brit folks do what they do regarding entering finished dogs in non-limited broke dog stakes.
It tells me that I shouldn't really care if I enter a FC, or a multiple NFC, in a Brit OGD stake. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Wyndancer, that's a very good point which escaped me up to this point. I guess I'd be willing to run a finished dog in a non-limited broke dog stake at a Brit trial, because such a stake should be littered with FC's/AFC's trying to qualify for their Nat'l Championship. So what's fair is fair. But still not at GSP trials though.............

Rob

So you'd be willing to keep a Brittany from competing at their National Championship why?

If I go to a GSP trial with my Brittany DC, I don't run in the open. I run in the amateur, where we still need points because I can't qualify for to run at the nationals winning a GSP trial.

I don't care who enters what....we run against Matt Basilone's string of GSP's all the time up in CT...I say bring it on, but I'm just wondering WHY you'd avoid entering an FC in an OGD stake at one of your breed trials, clearing the way for someone else to earn points, yet you wouldn't hesitate to enter your FC at a Brittany trial, in an attempt to keep a Brittany from qualifying to compete at their national level. Apples and oranges? Really?? Or do you all just not give a darn because its not your breed and its not your nationals?

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:57 am

This whole discussion really drives home exactly why I don't tell people how or where they are allowed to compete their dog.