Have foot hunting dogs changed?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:59 am

All I was saying is that if you look at traditional foot hunting breeds whether here or in Europe you will find larger, more relaxed, longer-gaited dogs. That is all. My perspective is the Northeast...which in many ways is much like Europe terrain-wise.

Running fast here is not a benefit.
mcbosco

From my experiece I think you are exactly right.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:53 am

So we have a difference between Cover Dogs and Prairie Dogs. Is this a new revelation?

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:28 am

Yes, but over a hundred years of cover trials have proven European dogs don't make good grouse dogs.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:25 pm

Yes, but over a hundred years of cover trials have proven European dogs don't make good grouse dogs.

Didn't realize that. What kind of numbers of Euro dogs have run in these trials??

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:31 pm

Grouse Dog Guy wrote:Yes, but over a hundred years of cover trials have proven European dogs don't make good grouse dogs.

But 100 years of cover trials have also failed to prove that you actually need a dog to hunt grouse.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:32 pm

JKP wrote:
Yes, but over a hundred years of cover trials have proven European dogs don't make good grouse dogs.
Didn't realize that. What kind of numbers of Euro dogs have run in these trials??

Why don't you enter one and show them your best Charlie Sheen.

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:07 pm

JKP wrote:
Yes, but over a hundred years of cover trials have proven European dogs don't make good grouse dogs.
Didn't realize that. What kind of numbers of Euro dogs have run in these trials??

I have no idea how many European breeds have run in cover trials in the last hundred years only that none have been named a champion. They have won on most other birds, maybe all but never in a cover dog championship on ruffed grouse and woodcock.

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:14 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grouse Dog Guy wrote:Yes, but over a hundred years of cover trials have proven European dogs don't make good grouse dogs.
But 100 years of cover trials have also failed to prove that you actually need a dog to hunt grouse.

Don't need a dog to hunt grouse or any other bird but it does save the hunter some walking.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:38 pm

I guess I'd need to know what kind of attempt has been made by the Euro breeds before I'm ready to pronounce them as poor grouse dogs. Hope you're not in statistics....

huntcrazed · Post by **huntcrazed** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:11 pm

birddogger wrote:Very nice post Mario.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie.

Interesting comment on grouse.

I always start the season with blues and beepers on pointing dogs.

The Ruffs at the bottom of the creeks where i hunt are totally tame and you can hunt them with an airgun...actually we do.

The blues get wild after a few days in the season and are a lot of fun....only problem they seem to be where the bears are also.......

I have no experience with Ruffs in the east coast ,I understand they are awesome there , my question is what should a pointing dog should have to be good at them besides what they need in all other game like being methodical ,no creeping after pointing, great nose,and of course experienced on the particular terrain and bird....but would being slow help?
A fast steady dog for example is great on chukar because chukar that sees the dog coming at a high rate of speed holds and if the dog slams a point and never moves or creeps it makes the birds hold and not run if the point happened far enough from the birds ....so now all the hunter has to do is come on the birds going down hill and they hold.
I have hunted with the same type of dogs on blues successfully because they were very steady but ruffs in the east suppose to need a slow setter type of dog and I wonder why?

Mario

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:53 pm

huntcrazed wrote: A fast steady dog for example is great on chukar because chukar that sees the dog coming at a high rate of speed holds and if the dog slams a point and never moves or creeps it makes the birds hold and not run if the point happened far enough from the birds
Mario

This is exactly the same for Pheasants, Sharptail and Huns where I hunt them. I have also found that the same dogs work very well on Ruffed Grouse working is such a manner. Our Ruffies are not so tame as yours, but a good hunter can take them with an air gun if he wanted (I have hunted late season Sharptail, Huns and Pheasants by stalking within 25 yards as well). Better or worse than a slower dog? How do you tell? The faster dog is usually there first so a side by side comparison in identical conditions is not possible. Are the Eastern Grouse any different? Seems the Cover Dog Trial folks don't seem to think that a slower dog is required to get the grouse found and pointed. I think there are a considerable # of them that hunt grouse and a bigger # of folks that hunt with dogs from the same breedings as the competitors run. But..... Can you shoot grouse effectively over a slower dog? Well, given that you can shoot grouse effectively without a dog I would think you should be able to hunt grouse effectively with most any dog that does not intentionally chase the birds away. So someone goes out hunting with a German Shepherd, shoots a limit of grouse on four consecutive outings and declares that the GSD is the ultimate grouse hunting dog. Who is to argue?

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:18 pm

This is probably a dumb question, but what are some of the non-European breeds which dominate the grouse trials? All of the dogs I can think of are English this, German that, or Spanish this, Hungarian that.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:42 pm

huntcrazed wrote:
birddogger wrote: I have no experience with Ruffs in the east coast ,I understand they are awesome there , my question is what should a pointing dog should have to be good at them besides what they need in all other game like being methodical ,no creeping after pointing, great nose,and of course experienced on the particular terrain and bird....but would being slow help?

In my opinion no a slower dog would not help one bit. I've found that a faster moving dog is more successful on pinning a ruffed grouse than a slower moving dog. The later you get in the season the slower the dog the more the grouse will run. I love a larger ranging (within reason) fast moving dog for ruffed grouse. They can't be beat.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:55 pm

Kmack wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but what are some of the non-European breeds which dominate the grouse trials? All of the dogs I can think of are English this, German that, or Spanish this, Hungarian that.

English Setters are far and away the most successful breed in terms of winning cover dog championships. In second place are Pointers. I would say that those positions would hold true for the # of placements in cover dog trials also Setters first, pointers, second.

There really is no breed that is in third place. No other breed of dog competes or places in any meaningful way in cover dog trials.

At least that is how it appears to me.

This is not to say that dogs from several other breeds cannot and do not make excellent grouse dogs. Of course they do. They just do not compete in cover dog trials.

RayG

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:12 pm

Contact local guides in your area. I have found if you want to find the best medicine for a quarry, ask a local person whose living depends on it. There are no prejudices, they use what works best. They may have a different opinion of what best is, but they have no reason to tell you anything but what they see as the truth. Their foot dogs are normally outstanding.
Think about it like fishing. When you show up to a local lake, you ask local guides what is working. They do it for a living, and if they don't produce, they don't sell trips. Capitalism/evolution all in one.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:27 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Kmack wrote:This is probably a dumb question, but what are some of the non-European breeds which dominate the grouse trials? All of the dogs I can think of are English this, German that, or Spanish this, Hungarian that.
English Setters are far and away the most successful breed in terms of winning cover dog championships. In second place are Pointers. I would say that those positions would hold true for the # of placements in cover dog trials also Setters first, pointers, second.

There really is no breed that is in third place. No other breed of dog competes or places in any meaningful way in cover dog trials.

At least that is how it appears to me.

This is not to say that dogs from several other breeds cannot and do not make excellent grouse dogs. Of course they do. They just do not compete in cover dog trials.

RayG

I guess I am confused about the term "European Breed". I consider English Setters and English Pointers to be European Breeds. I am assuming that in this thread European, Continental, and Versatile breeds are interchangeable terms.

I have always considered any breed which was imported from Europe to the US as a European Breed.

I think I learned something new...

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:28 pm

I've tried a few European imports, while they were dogs you could hunt grouse with I could never have called them grouse dogs. :roll:

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:40 pm

I've tried a few European imports

Yeah..I tried a few setters too...all soft, run-off kind of dog

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:48 pm

JKP wrote:
I've tried a few European imports
Yeah..I tried a few setters too...all soft, run-off kind of dog

and they all have that long silky coat that gets tangled all the time....

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:03 pm

I love my english setter, but she does get stuff stuck in her hair when in the grouse woods. Yesterday I spent a couple minutes picking out a 3 foot long raspberry stem from her hind quarter hair. But considering She got that raspberry stem caught in her hair because she tore through the woods at Mach 1 and hit a gorgeous point (I've got the picture to prove it) about 140 yards out, spending a couple minutes of picking stuff out of her hair is a fair trade off.

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:06 pm

JKP wrote:
I've tried a few European imports
Yeah..I tried a few setters too...all soft, run-off kind of dog

I guess you know you have to talk to them in english or they won't understand. :roll:

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:30 pm

I was just responding to one generalization with another. I can't find one Euro kennel that is even interested in Cover Trials, so the generalization that therefore they are all second class grouse dogs struck me as sort of empirically weak logic. But heh...if folks need to think that...no problem.

You got scouts handling the dog in Cover Dog Trials too

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:47 pm

Grouse Dog Guy wrote:I've tried a few European imports, while they were dogs you could hunt grouse with I could never have called them grouse dogs. :roll:

I have hunted over a French Britt that was bar none the best grouse dog I have ever seen. It was a grouse guide's dog. The other grouse guide I know hunts with a Short hair.

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:20 pm

When i tried to enter my Gsp in a cover trial over the phone.The guy running the event said i did't even stand a chance if my dog didn't have a tail.I live in northern PA near marionville.. So i go thier and shoot all the grouse.That is why you go birdless at your trials. I avg. about 10 finds in 1hr and half.I have 5 GSP and One is a DK .

huntcrazed · Post by **huntcrazed** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:18 am

rschmeider wrote:When i tried to enter my Gsp in a cover trial over the phone.The guy running the event said i did't even stand a chance if my dog didn't have a tail.I live in northern PA near marionville. So i go thier and shoot all the grouse.That is why you go birdless at your trials. I avg. about 10 finds in 1hr and half.I have 5 GSP and One is a DK .

I would like to ask ......what do you think about the Dks of today in comparison to most Gsps?

Mario

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:10 am

Lived for years in Germany....the DK tends to be a physically different animal than many GSPs. ....these were big, strong dogs that most folks here wouldn't want. Have seen them run walking brace trials in Denmark and they seem more similar to the domestic dogs. I think FT has had a huge affect on GSPs, favoring a smaller, lighter boned dog....I think there has been some "re-introduction of the Pointer. But, the GSP as Vdog has been very successful in the US...it is the dominant breed in NAVHDA. Many lines have used DK in their breeding. Overall, having seen and hunted over both either here or in Europe, except for the size and substance difference, I see no difference in ability save for the range and speed of some domestic dogs which seems to be often confused with hunting ability.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:01 am

rschmeider wrote:When i tried to enter my Gsp in a cover trial over the phone.The guy running the event said i did't even stand a chance if my dog didn't have a tail.I live in northern PA near marionville.. So i go thier and shoot all the grouse.That is why you go birdless at your trials. I avg. about 10 finds in 1hr and half.I have 5 GSP and One is a DK .

The only thing you will win sitting at home is a beer from the fridge to cry in. There are some Brittany folks who don't believe the bunk, and when they do show up with a dog that is good enough they have gone home with the ribbons. The problem is most folks don't go, therefor they don't really understand what it actually takes to win. This results in them showing up with what they thought was a good dog, not having the right performance to win it, and then blaming the tail because it is the easy out and don't return. Instead they should look at what the winning dogs are doing, decide if they have a dog that they are capable of handling in that manner, and if they do come prepared to win it the next time, and the next, and the next etc.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 am

Slistoe, you know all that coolaid isn't good for you.

I have talked with several people who have run into the same bias. They were in KS at the time. If you don't think there is a biased towards longer tails in field trials, you are living under a rock.
Why do you suppose that GSPs and Britts are owned by so many hunters, but don't do as well in trials? Either hunters don't like shooting birds or there is a real problem. Acting as if the bias doesn't exist only makes you look even more silly. Look at what kind of dogs wild bird guides use. There will not be near the difference as in trials.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:53 am

Birddogz wrote:Slistoe, you know all that coolaid isn't good for you. I have talked with several people who have run into the same bias. They were in KS at the time. If you don't think there is a biased towards longer tails in field trials, you are living under a rock.
Why do you suppose that GSPs and Britts are owned by so many hunters, but don't do as well in trials? Either hunters don't like shooting birds or there is a real problem. Acting as if the bias doesn't exist only makes you look even more silly. Look at what kind of dogs wild bird guides use. There will not be near the difference as in trials.

I run Brittanys. I have been to the trials and competed against the longtails. I have won a few placements against them. I think I know why I did and didn't win. You however have never been away from your computer and have the gall to tell me why I shouldn't have gone.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:06 am

Slistoe, I think it is more than clear that I hunt more days in a season than you do in 3.

So the whole step away from the computer thing is ridiculous. If you like to field trial, great. To think that there is no bias towards long tails is insane. Longtail owners will tell you there is. :roll: Not saying you can't win, but come on! You tow the company line with this stuff. Why do you think they have all-Britt competitions? Why is it you seem to argue points that 95% of people take as being a given?

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:12 am

Why do you think they have all-Britt competitions?

Just explain it to us why we still to this day hold Brittany only trials??????????????

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:15 am

rschmeider wrote:When i tried to enter my Gsp in a cover trial over the phone.The guy running the event said i did't even stand a chance if my dog didn't have a tail.I live in northern PA near marionville.. So i go thier and shoot all the grouse.That is why you go birdless at your trials. I avg. about 10 finds in 1hr and half.I have 5 GSP and One is a DK .

You must have been hunting somewhere else in Pa the trials are run near Marienville. Which club trial was that?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:18 am

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:
Why do you think they have all-Britt competitions?
Tell me O great, one just explain it to us why we still to this day hold Brittany only trials??????????????

2 reasons. To judge the Britt to its own standard, and because they wouldn't be given a fair shake by long-tail FT judges. I know guys who trialed Britts and changed to EPs so they could win some. Not because the EPs were any better either, in fact, a guy I know in KS thought he won with dogs that weren't as good as his Britts.

Trials with EPs and hunts his Britts. Not to say that EPs are not great dogs, because they are. Just saying that bias is there.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:22 am

Birddogz wrote:
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:
Why do you think they have all-Britt competitions?
Tell me O great, one just explain it to us why we still to this day hold Brittany only trials??????????????
2 reasons. To judge the Britt to its own standard, and because they wouldn't be given a fair shake by long-tail FT judges. I know guys who trialed Britts and changed to EPs so they could win some. Not because the EPs were any better either, in fact, a guy I know in KS thought he won with dogs that weren't as good as his Britts.

I like how your stories go as, "a guy I know" or "I talked to a guy"!!! Come back and talk to us when you've learned something first hand!!!! I know this guy that lives in North Dakota and shot a million pheasants, 100,000 sharptails, and 75,000 huns last season. I know its the truth cause he said so.....

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:32 am

Birddogz wrote:Slistoe, you know all that coolaid isn't good for you. I have talked with several people who have run into the same bias. They were in KS at the time. If you don't think there is a biased towards longer tails in field trials, you are living under a rock.
Why do you suppose that GSPs and Britts are owned by so many hunters, but don't do as well in trials? Either hunters don't like shooting birds or there is a real problem. Acting as if the bias doesn't exist only makes you look even more silly. Look at what kind of dogs wild bird guides use. There will not be near the difference as in trials.

I guided for many years and tried the European dogs for grouse and woodcock but my clients didn't like paying to hunt chipmunks, squirrels, skunks, possums, rabbits, porcupines, deer, house cats, and all the other trash European dogs were developed to hunt. I had to go back to bird dogs to stay in business.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:36 am

Wow so how does all this have anything to do with Have foot hunting dogs changed?

So let's get back to the foot hunting dog

How about maybe the dogs have changed ...How about many areas where we hunt not having the space or the birds to hunt anymore or places where birds use to be abundant are no longer that way

Where can one hunt on foot and go all day one direction and get into birds the whole time maybe a person here and there might find something but bottom line out of the hunters maybe .01% have access to anything close to this

How about that you have 2 mind sets at hunting One is filling a Bag limit the other is more about watching a dog hunt and only shooting birds over pointed birds

Some measure success by what their dogs did over how full their game bag is and since filling a game bag in todays age doesn't mean the family will go hungry if the game bag isn't filled point is the different mind set about hunting

as for the trials ...One of my breedings I did with my female to a 2x NAFC FC AFC 5x American field champion stud dog one of my puppy purchasers i strictly a wild bird hunter says his female has done better then his other dogs have done she covers ground and on a days hunt will find more birds then his other more average bred dog

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:39 am

Birddogz wrote:
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:
Why do you think they have all-Britt competitions?
Tell me O great, one just explain it to us why we still to this day hold Brittany only trials??????????????
2 reasons. To judge the Britt to its own standard, and because they wouldn't be given a fair shake by long-tail FT judges. I know guys who trialed Britts and changed to EPs so they could win some. Not because the EPs were any better either, in fact, a guy I know in KS thought he won with dogs that weren't as good as his Britts.

Trials with EPs and hunts his Britts. Not to say that EPs are not great dogs, because they are. Just saying that bias is there.

To be judged against other brittanys limited stakes are so that breed is insured that the breed gets the points which there still has to be a dog that the judges will put up Judges can elect to with hold a placement(s)..so you should have stopped there, as many trials judges, judge more then one breed

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:43 am

How many dogs OTHER than long tails win AA events? Ames? Etc.? Then go see what hunters use in the field and tell me there is no bias.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:46 am

AA Events....

Brittanys, Shorthairs, Setters......

Again you have NO idea what the heck you are talking about!!! I'll edit my post after somebody points it out that I'm full of ...it.... HA HA HA!!

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:51 am

Birddogz wrote:How many dogs OTHER than long tails win AA events? Ames? Etc.? Then go see what hunters use in the field and tell me there is no bias.

What are you talking about???????????

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:53 am

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:AA Events....

Brittanys, Shorthairs, Setters......

Again you have NO idea what the heck you are talking about!!! I'll edit my post after somebody points it out that I'm full of ...it.... HA HA HA!!

Answer me then. How many Britts compared to say Pointers win big AA events? Why are Britts so in the minority in FTing winners, when they go head to head with other breeds, yet they are so popular with hunters? The answer is 2 fold, one most Britts don't run big enough AND there is a bias against them.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:00 am

Birddogz wrote:How many dogs OTHER than long tails win AA events? Ames? Etc.? Then go see what hunters use in the field and tell me there is no bias.

I don't have the figures in front of me but I would guess there are mor Brittanys and GSP's winning AA events than any other breeds no matter how long their tails are. As for Ames, don't know who all trials there but if you are refering to the 3 hr National Championship then the pointers are on top of that one even though the setters were predominant back when they started.

When we talk about bias, I think you are right. The owners of every breed tend to be bias towards their own. As far as judges go, many of the different breed trials hire the same judges. Good judges look for good dogs. Most complaints about judges come from people who have lost. And most complaints about bias come from people who need an excuse to not try.

Ezzy

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:03 am

Birddogz wrote:Answer me then. How many Britts compared to say Pointers win big AA events?

Those kind of competitions are what pointers were bred for, thus they excell. Comparing britts to pointers in terms of AA trials is asking a britt to be a pointer wich is unfair IMO. It's more ability than bias. Both are great hunting dogs though. My dogs have tails and they are not going to do well at AA trials either.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:04 am

yet they are so popular with hunters?

I'd call that more important...sounds like they're holding their own where it counts...congratulations!!!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:05 am

Birddogz wrote:How many dogs OTHER than long tails win AA events? Ames? Etc.? Then go see what hunters use in the field and tell me there is no bias.

Not as many people will run and put the effort..Sure when it comes to trying to run all breeds in an AF trial specially the "long Tails " are going to out number other breeds and it will take a special dog to get the attention of the judges enough to be looked at much less placed..but there are a few that go any ways

as for national trials such as Ames it will be a big uphill try for anything other then a pointer or setter to be there as it takes a dog to win two national qualifying championship trials to even get there

Very few Brittanys,GSP's and other have the ability to run but who knows maybe some day a different breed may stand a chance to qualify to get there on their own merits of getting enough judges attention and willing to place the dog that they see fit that is not of the norm dog to put up

But FYI there are some trials where though dominated by long tails that a brittany won the stake from derby on up

I have posted a couple times where the Ames used to be dominated by setters when it forst began and them in i think 1911 the pointers started to take over and have since a certain point dominated it...Why..breeding programs and the build which quickly made the pointer harder to beat...No big secret there ..that is why there are different breeds also as personal preference of what each breed is about ...then there is personal preferences with in the breed as to what each person prefers as there are closer working and bigger going dogs with in all breeds

maybe that is why there are different stakes at a trial

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:12 am

Very few Brittanys,GSP's and other have the ability to run but who knows maybe some day a different breed may stand a chance to qualify to get there on their own merits of getting enough judges attention and willing to place the dog that they see fit that is not of the norm dog to put up

I think you will find that the percentage of winners pretty much duplicate the percentage of entrants of each breed. This pretty much does away with the bias arguement. If you enter you will have a chance to win.

Ezzy

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:19 am

I'd call that more important...sounds like they're holding their own where I think it counts...congratulations!!!

FIFY. :roll:

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:26 am

Grouse Dog Guy wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Slistoe, you know all that coolaid isn't good for you. I have talked with several people who have run into the same bias. They were in KS at the time. If you don't think there is a biased towards longer tails in field trials, you are living under a rock.
Why do you suppose that GSPs and Britts are owned by so many hunters, but don't do as well in trials? Either hunters don't like shooting birds or there is a real problem. Acting as if the bias doesn't exist only makes you look even more silly. Look at what kind of dogs wild bird guides use. There will not be near the difference as in trials.

I guided for many years and tried the European dogs for grouse and woodcock but my clients didn't like paying to hunt chipmunks, squirrels, skunks, possums, rabbits, porcupines, deer, house cats, and all the other trash European dogs were developed to hunt. I had to go back to bird dogs to stay in business.

Clueless

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:33 am

Ron R wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Answer me then. How many Britts compared to say Pointers win big AA events?
Those kind of competitions are what pointers were bred for, thus they excell. Comparing britts to pointers in terms of AA trials is asking a britt to be a pointer wich is unfair IMO. It's more ability than bias. Both are great hunting dogs though. My dogs have tails and they are not going to do well at AA trials either.

I think you are right about the ability, but there is bias as well. So many on here try to act as if it doesn't exist in trials.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:35 am

Grouse Dog Guy wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Slistoe, you know all that coolaid isn't good for you. I have talked with several people who have run into the same bias. They were in KS at the time. If you don't think there is a biased towards longer tails in field trials, you are living under a rock.
Why do you suppose that GSPs and Britts are owned by so many hunters, but don't do as well in trials? Either hunters don't like shooting birds or there is a real problem. Acting as if the bias doesn't exist only makes you look even more silly. Look at what kind of dogs wild bird guides use. There will not be near the difference as in trials.

I guided for many years and tried the European dogs for grouse and woodcock but my clients didn't like paying to hunt chipmunks, squirrels, skunks, possums, rabbits, porcupines, deer, house cats, and all the other trash European dogs were developed to hunt. I had to go back to bird dogs to stay in business.

Man, I hope you are joking.