No NSTRA Winnings On Pedigree?

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:16 pm

It's been stated that NSTRA dogs that go to the so called National level have to run multible times during a weekend and possibly an hour. It's a whole different game on foot to run an hour than on horseback. It takes alot of conditioning and heart in a really good dog to compete at that level. Most of these dogs can do it day after day if needed. That's a real dog.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:20 pm

"the so called National level"

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:23 pm

kensfishing wrote:It's been stated that NSTRA dogs that go to the so called National level have to run multible times during a weekend and possibly an hour. It's a whole different game on foot to run an hour than on horseback. It takes alot of conditioning and heart in a really good dog to compete at that level. Most of these dogs can do it day after day if needed. That's a real dog.

Ken..So Call?

that was uncalled for..it takes training and conditioning for any dog to run many of the National trials ..specially when there is a series of 30 minute stakes before you get to that final hour HB or Foot that kind of tone is demeaning to people that enjoy and spend lots of time and effort to go to these trials

We understand you think your venue is the end all..FYI it isn't that is why there are different formats for different people to enjoy.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:55 pm

kensfishing wrote:It's been stated that NSTRA dogs that go to the so called National level have to run multible times during a weekend and possibly an hour. It's a whole different game on foot to run an hour than on horseback. It takes alot of conditioning and heart in a really good dog to compete at that level. Most of these dogs can do it day after day if needed. That's a real dog.

Spoken like a fellow who has never been to a horseback trial, I understand you may need to get in shape. Were talking about a six mile course @ about 8 miles an hour, not a forty acre field. And your right all hour dogs need to be in condition and then some!!!

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:30 pm

myerstenn wrote:
kensfishing wrote:It's been stated that NSTRA dogs that go to the so called National level have to run multible times during a weekend and possibly an hour. It's a whole different game on foot to run an hour than on horseback. It takes alot of conditioning and heart in a really good dog to compete at that level. Most of these dogs can do it day after day if needed. That's a real dog.
Spoken like a fellow who has never been to a horseback trial, I understand you may need to get in shape. Were talking about a six mile course @ about 8 miles an hour, not a forty acre field. And your right all hour dogs need to be in condition and then some!!!

I was talking about NSTRA and Navda dogs. I field trial and judge both. AKC and AF. Finished four titles and a RU in an AF AA. Been riding horses for a long time. Way too long.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:11 pm

kensfishing wrote:
myerstenn wrote:
kensfishing wrote:It's been stated that NSTRA dogs that go to the so called National level have to run multible times during a weekend and possibly an hour. It's a whole different game on foot to run an hour than on horseback. It takes alot of conditioning and heart in a really good dog to compete at that level. Most of these dogs can do it day after day if needed. That's a real dog.
Spoken like a fellow who has never been to a horseback trial, I understand you may need to get in shape. Were talking about a six mile course @ about 8 miles an hour, not a forty acre field. And your right all hour dogs need to be in condition and then some!!!
I was talking about NSTRA and Navda dogs. I field trial and judge both. AKC and AF. Finished four titles and a RU in an AF AA. Been riding horses for a long time. Way too long.

Ok Your of the hook!!!!

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:53 pm

kensfishing wrote:
myerstenn wrote:
kensfishing wrote:It's been stated that NSTRA dogs that go to the so called National level have to run multible times during a weekend and possibly an hour. It's a whole different game on foot to run an hour than on horseback. It takes alot of conditioning and heart in a really good dog to compete at that level. Most of these dogs can do it day after day if needed. That's a real dog.
Spoken like a fellow who has never been to a horseback trial, I understand you may need to get in shape. Were talking about a six mile course @ about 8 miles an hour, not a forty acre field. And your right all hour dogs need to be in condition and then some!!!
I was talking about NSTRA and Navda dogs. I field trial and judge both. AKC and AF. Finished four titles and a RU in an AF AA. Been riding horses for a long time. Way too long.

Alot of class and knowledge going on here :roll: . True ambassadors and sportsmen :roll: .

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:25 pm

kensfishing wrote:It's been stated that NSTRA dogs that go to the so called National level have to run multible times during a weekend and possibly an hour. It's a whole different game on foot to run an hour than on horseback. It takes alot of conditioning and heart in a really good dog to compete at that level. Most of these dogs can do it day after day if needed. That's a real dog.

"I was talking about NSTRA and Navda dogs. I field trial and judge both. AKC and AF. Finished four titles and a RU in an AF AA. Been riding horses for a long time. Way too long."

There's no doubt the AF horseback dogs cover more ground and require a higher level of conditioning, but all the various trial and test venues have different focuses, and provide their own unique challenges. I'm curious if those "Navda" dogs you hold in such disdain qualify as "real" dogs, given that they must be able to track, perform blind water retrieves, double-marked water retrieves, and no-drop field retrieves that few, if any, AF dogs could cope with. I'm no horseback trialer, but I sure won't denigrate the sport or it's participants. If that's your thing, I hope have a great time with it.

It's worth noting that when someone is unable to correctly spell the name of an organization, he's probably less than qualified to criticize it.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:35 pm

I'm curious if those "Navda" dogs you hold in such disdain qualify as "real" dogs, given that they must be able to track, perform blind water retrieves, double-marked water retrieves, and no-drop field retrieves that few, if any, AF dogs could cope with. I'm no horseback trialer, but I sure won't denigrate the sport or it's participants.

hmmm......................................

Texasdogtrainer · Post by **Texasdogtrainer** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:59 pm

The other issue is with the AFTCA, one of there rules are solid barrel guns be permitted at an event. If the club is affiliated with AFTCA, which provide the insurance than we had to comply with the rule. I was ok with the rule change due to eventually there will be an issue with shooting birds in a competitive event. We might have to become a secret society like Pigeon shoots. I like the fact that NSTRA and other trials with a similiar format exist. They are for the good of the sport to have a range of usage for birddogs. We should support all aspects of birddog compeition, not as a hiearchy but as a continuation of birddog competition. MIller's Silver Bullet, the greatest dog running in my life time, would not win a NSTRA event, He would get embarrassed. Crow's little Joe, the greatest NSTRA dog, couldn't beat Silver Bullet in open all-age competition. This doens't mean one is better than the other because both carry the label "great."

Dave Quindt wrote:
Texasdogtrainer wrote:ABHA and NBHA also had to stop shooting birds. Both organization stopped and maintain being sanctioned by American Field.
The NGSPA continues to shoot birds at some of their championships, and they are AF sanctioned. There are a few hundred local AF trials every year where birds are shot; they are the AF trials dual-sanctioned with the AKC.

ElectricShorthairs wrote:
I just wish it would show up on pedigrees!
NSTRA titles do show up on offical pedigree; those issued by NSTRA. With a couple of quirky exceptions, organizations only display titled they award on the pedigrees they produce. So, AF titles show up on AF (aka FDSB) pedigrees, AKC titles show up on AKC pedigrees, NAVHDA titles show up on NAVHDA pedigrees, etc, etc. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Formal pedigrees issued by the various registries are not nearly as important, or useful, as they were as little as 10 years ago. Both NSTRA and the AKC allow you to look up a dog, and his awarded titles, for free. NSTRA allows you to see his entire placement history; AKC charges a nominal fee.

There are pedigree management programs available for those who want to create and distribute their own custom pedigrees that display whatever titles they choose. There are online pedigree databases. And of course, there is Google.

FWIW,
Dave

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:02 pm

I may be way wrong, but in my experience, the venue doesn't seem to matter to the dogs.

By the way, one of the reasons different sanctioning organizations do not recognize each others' titles on certified pedigrees is because that puts the burden of verification on the issuing body. Each group guarantees those titles. Without access to each others' data bases, that is a bit difficult. Ask anyone who runs Agility.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:35 pm

"There's no doubt the AF horseback dogs cover more ground and require a higher level of conditioning, but all the various trial and test venues have different focuses, and provide their own unique challenges. I'm curious if those "Navda" dogs you hold in such disdain qualify as "real" dogs, given that they must be able to track, perform blind water retrieves, double-marked water retrieves, and no-drop field retrieves that few, if any, AF dogs could cope with. I'm no horseback trialer, but I sure won't denigrate the sport or it's participants. If that's your thing, I hope have a great time with it. "

FYI if field trailers would train those dogs to do NAVHDA they would probably Excel at it. Where as you could train a high speed low drag dog to do what you want but if the dog does not have the speed or desire that is requiredat at field trial dog it could get through clean but would never place against the higher calibre dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:11 pm

ultracarry wrote:"There's no doubt the AF horseback dogs cover more ground and require a higher level of conditioning, but all the various trial and test venues have different focuses, and provide their own unique challenges. I'm curious if those "Navda" dogs you hold in such disdain qualify as "real" dogs, given that they must be able to track, perform blind water retrieves, double-marked water retrieves, and no-drop field retrieves that few, if any, AF dogs could cope with. I'm no horseback trialer, but I sure won't denigrate the sport or it's participants. If that's your thing, I hope have a great time with it. "

FYI if field trailers would train those dogs to do NAVHDA they would probably Excel at it. Where as you could train a high speed low drag dog to do what you want but if the dog does not have the speed or desire that is requiredat at field trial dog it could get through clean but would never place against the higher calibre dogs.

Sounds quite couldie and ifie to me to put much reliance on as fact. So I think we are back where we started. All dogs are required to play the game someone with little to do made up rules for and if they do well we are supposed to crown them as the best dogs in the world. Or would it be better and more accurate to say we all had fun playing one of the many games we have come up with so we can enjoy our dogs all year long.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:47 pm

There are if and could... the only thing set in stone is life and death and if I would grantee anything some might be dead before it happened.. you get it?

Some people in the field trial game would never do the V thing because they never use the dog for tracking and blind duck retrieves (isn't that why you use a lab).

If my dog slows down or does not have as much stamina or.drive or I run out of money I will be doing NAVHDA with her and she would do great. I would make a grantee but...( refer to paragraph one).

Back to the original topic...

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:04 pm

ultracarry wrote:"There's no doubt the AF horseback dogs cover more ground and require a higher level of conditioning, but all the various trial and test venues have different focuses, and provide their own unique challenges. I'm curious if those "Navda" dogs you hold in such disdain qualify as "real" dogs, given that they must be able to track, perform blind water retrieves, double-marked water retrieves, and no-drop field retrieves that few, if any, AF dogs could cope with. I'm no horseback trialer, but I sure won't denigrate the sport or it's participants. If that's your thing, I hope have a great time with it. "

FYI if field trailers would train those dogs to do NAVHDA they would probably Excel at it. Where as you could train a high speed low drag dog to do what you want but if the dog does not have the speed or desire that is requiredat at field trial dog it could get through clean but would never place against the higher calibre dogs.

Probably some truth to that, but I suspect you underestimate a lot of the NAVHDA dogs, particularly in the desire category. Pretty tough for a low-desire dog to get through a UT test, much less the Invitational. The goal there is obviously to have a "versatile" dog that can perform a multitude of functions in the field, so that you don't have to buy a lab. Wouldn't you prefer that your pointer be able to track cripples, or to be sent to retrieve a bird that it didn't see fall? Lots of practical hunting applications for everything in NAVHDA. It's a hoot to listen to someone who apparently knows so little about the organization to "grantee " that his dog would easily master it.

I'm sure I'd enjoy watching shooting dogs or all-age dogs do their thing, and I can understand why horseback guys enjoy their venue. Just don't agree with the philosophy that everything else is somehow inferior.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:29 pm

ckirsch wrote:
ultracarry wrote:"There's no doubt the AF horseback dogs cover more ground and require a higher level of conditioning, but all the various trial and test venues have different focuses, and provide their own unique challenges. I'm curious if those "Navda" dogs you hold in such disdain qualify as "real" dogs, given that they must be able to track, perform blind water retrieves, double-marked water retrieves, and no-drop field retrieves that few, if any, AF dogs could cope with. I'm no horseback trialer, but I sure won't denigrate the sport or it's participants. If that's your thing, I hope have a great time with it. "

FYI if field trailers would train those dogs to do NAVHDA they would probably Excel at it. Where as you could train a high speed low drag dog to do what you want but if the dog does not have the speed or desire that is requiredat at field trial dog it could get through clean but would never place against the higher calibre dogs.
Probably some truth to that, but I suspect you underestimate a lot of the NAVHDA dogs, particularly in the desire category. Pretty tough for a low-desire dog to get through a UT test, much less the Invitational. The goal there is obviously to have a "versatile" dog that can perform a multitude of functions in the field, so that you don't have to buy a lab. Wouldn't you prefer that your pointer be able to track cripples, or to be sent to retrieve a bird that it didn't see fall? Lots of practical hunting applications for everything in NAVHDA. It's a hoot to listen to someone who apparently knows so little about the organization to "grantee " that his dog would easily master it.

I'm sure I'd enjoy watching shooting dogs or all-age dogs do their thing, and I can understand why horseback guys enjoy their venue. Just don't agree with the philosophy that everything else is somehow inferior.

Thank you for a voice of reason.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:42 pm

FYI if field trailers would train those dogs to do NAVHDA they would probably Excel at it. Where as you could train a high speed low drag dog to do what you want but if the dog does not have the speed or desire that is requiredat at field trial dog it could get through clean but would never place against the higher calibre dogs.

I doubt if they would excel at it, I think being able to run big has nothing to do with being able to handle blind retrieves. If they it were easy to excel at it, every NFC would run over to NAVHDA just to prove it was.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:09 pm

]
I doubt if they would excel at it, I think being able to run big has nothing to do with being able to handle blind retrieves. If they it were easy to excel at it, every NFC would run over to NAVHDA just to prove it was.[/quote]

But extreme drive and determination has alot to do with it. I just do not think the people running dogs in that venue care much about versatile training...And visa versa....

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:14 pm

Every NFC would not run because which is a larger scale event? Also if you train a dog to do a blind retrieve and send it on command to do one it probably won't do a 700 yard cast and go hunting.

If you look at field trials and go watch them it is not all about how far a dog runs. It's about how that dog can handle at the range they are at and if you have trained your dog well enough you don't have to give them a command. They can read the terrain and look in the spots that will most likely hold birds.

The field trial champions and national champions should.not have a problem being versatile dogs. If you know what drives them you would know it is greed. If you have a greedy dog you can teach them that to get the bird they have to do what ever you tell them. If they don't well they don't get their greed fed.

You can teach a dog that is capable and get results. If you are judged against a standard then you can pass with that. If you are judged against other dogs you have to beat them. There is a reason why national champions are admired and looked at in a different light.

If a dog performs decent and passes everything in a utility, NA or VC can They get the title? Try looking for a national field champion that could get the title by just getting by. The judges in field trials can withhold all placements if they do not think the dogs performed well enough.

Edit for Android auto spelling.....

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:33 pm

People forget that GSP's have web feet are are at home in the water. All my dogs love water and swim, not just stock tanks. They retrieve ducks or what ever is shot over them, just the way they're trained. I will not have a dog break ice or even get in water that's too cold to cause health problems. If I won't go in I won't make them go in. Rabbits, I don't hunt them so we break them from hunting the furry little creatures. Not saying a racoon or some other creature gets in front of them they won't kill it or attempt to. Too many skunks around here and racoons also. Blind retrieves, how many times are you going to make blind retrieves with a dog. Not me, don't like eating the ducks or geese so why kill them. We want dogs to go an hour or more as hard at the end as the beginning. That's what I meant our training and conditioning is as hard as it is. The amount of ground these dogs cover in that time will scare most foot hunters. I still hunt all my field trial dogs, every day hunting season is open can get out. Just my two cents for what it's worth. Everyone has the right to play their own games, I just choose horseback trials.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:49 pm

I think it is odd that dogs can't adjust to trial conditions but they can always adjust to hunting conditions. I am yet to see a good dog that can't adjust to its environment and the birds in it.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:56 pm

gpblitz wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Also if you train a dog to do a blind retrieve and send it on command to do one it probably won't do a 700 yard cast and go hunting.
Maybe you should go try the NAVHDA game before passing judgment. A dog knows the differance between a blind at the water and casting in the field. No different then a trial dog worked off foot or horse back Or a dog adjusting from the prairie the the grouse woods.

Ya and where in my post did I say a VC or any NAVHDA dog would not do a blind water retrieve??? If you would like I can get a hurt feelings card and fill it out for you. I apologize for being honest and not sugar coating that some dogs can not make.it in field.trial games. Where NAVHDA will pass a dog that's not as good because it met the standard. It's two separate judging objectives. Why do you feel that's an attack when it is fact.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:59 pm

ultracarry wrote:There is a reason why national champions are admired and looked at in a different light.

Only by those that follow that game and give value to it. I support others in what they choose to do with their time, money, & dogs--but I don't have a clue who the national champions are and I won't be googling it any time soon. Whenever I see posts denigrating others pastimes, I think to myself--I guess someone needs to feel good about themselves today. :roll: Yes, your dog is better than my dog. Happy now?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:07 pm

If you look on the website for NAVHDA you can see with your own two eyes where they are judged against a standard. If you look on the AKC you can see where field trials are judged based upon performance 1-4 place.

If you do not have the best dog that day you will not win a field trial even if your dog gets through clean if it does not physically perform to the judges standard.

If you play NAVHDA or NSTRA or Hunt tests you can win or pass if your dog performs to the written standard. The dog does not have to stand out but has to pass or score the highest points.

I did not say any event was better. I just said a dog can pass in NAVHDA that could never place in field trials and it wouldn't be hard for a FT dog to learn because of the desire and drive they possess by being greedy.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:10 pm

gpblitz wrote:Ultracarry, Do you spell your name with a capital P ? Man that's the message I get. lighten up!!! :roll:

No I don't ugh. I'm actually having fun.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:23 pm

ultracarry wrote:I did not say any event was better. I just said a dog can pass in NAVHDA that could never place in field trials and it wouldn't be hard for a FT dog to learn because of the desire and drive they possess by being greedy.

The lack of objectivity and generalities are unreal...

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:54 pm

wems2371 wrote:
ultracarry wrote:There is a reason why national champions are admired and looked at in a different light.
Only by those that follow that game and give value to it. I support others in what they choose to do with their time, money, & dogs--but I don't have a clue who the national champions are and I won't be googling it any time soon. Whenever I see posts denigrating others pastimes, I think to myself--I guess someone needs to feel good about themselves today. :roll: Yes, your dog is better than my dog. Happy now?

No doubt..some are daily

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:58 pm

Sorry I asked. :roll:

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:59 pm

Just to return to the original question with a redundant bit of trivia regarding National Champions. The reigning National Champion is Touch's Whiteout, a son of Lester's Snowatch. Back on his pedigree is a dog named Crow's Little Joe. I've not seen the pedigree, but if Joe has a Ch designation, it was earned (a score plus times over) in NSTRA. And that's all I have to say about National Champions.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:04 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
wems2371 wrote:
ultracarry wrote:There is a reason why national champions are admired and looked at in a different light.
Only by those that follow that game and give value to it. I support others in what they choose to do with their time, money, & dogs--but I don't have a clue who the national champions are and I won't be googling it any time soon. Whenever I see posts denigrating others pastimes, I think to myself--I guess someone needs to feel good about themselves today. :roll: Yes, your dog is better than my dog. Happy now?

No doubt..some are daily

Hey Knine you forgot to make the last sentence bold.....

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:06 pm

ACooper wrote:
ultracarry wrote:I did not say any event was better. I just said a dog can pass in NAVHDA that could never place in field trials and it wouldn't be hard for a FT dog to learn because of the desire and drive they possess by being greedy.
The lack of objectivity and generalities are unreal...

Please explain how that is incorrect. I would like to know your thinking behind that statement.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:30 pm

ultracarry wrote:]
Hey Knine you forgot to make the last sentence bold.....

I'll give you bold

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:35 pm

That dogs not a britt

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:10 am

ezzy333 wrote:I think it is odd that dogs can't adjust to trial conditions but they can always adjust to hunting conditions. I am yet to see a good dog that can't adjust to its environment and the birds in it.

Ezzy

Ezzy, you know very well that a dog that won't/can't go 400 yards on a cast can be very serviceable as a Hunt Test Dog, NAVHDA Dog, NSTRA dog, Hunting dog but it will never be a Horseback Shooting Dog no matter how much you try to "adjust" it. But a dog that can and will handle on 400 yard casts can be easily "adjusted" to any of the aforementioned activities.
Of course NSTRA may be a little tougher than the others since you cannot get by there by merely being serviceable either - you must be able to WIN.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:16 am

And I thought I was the only one on this forum...

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:19 am

It is late here too.....

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:38 am

I would like to see more horse-back shooting dogs show versatility in a test situation. Thats why I said they do not care about it...I would have alot of respect for any gun dog or shooting dog that proves he can adjust to versatile venue. Rick's Fritz did it and I am going to try.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:07 am

Ultracarry claims to be a hunter, but fails to recognize any application for a dog being able to make a blind retrieve, or track a cripple? If your hunting partner (assuming you can find one capable of tolerating your ego) knocks a pheasant or grouse down in a field across a creek while your "real" dog is in the middle of one of those highly-useful 700-yard casts, how are you going to choreograph that retrieve?

The hunting vs trials / tests threads surface often on bird dog forums. Condescending attitudes such as ultra ego's fuel much of the anti-trial / test sentiments, and that snobbiness obviously discourages newbies from becoming involved. After reading his posts in this thread, how many of us would drive across a state or two in order to spend a weekend rubbing elbows with ultra?

You indicate that nearly any dog can waltz through NAVHDA, while the truth of it is that the organization has registered over 40,000 dogs, with just over 400 getting through the Invitational in the past twenty-some years, so it could be a dog has to be just a little bit better than average to earn a VC. In NSTRA, the dog with the most finds, and typically the best style, handling, and run wins. (Sounds a little like AF trials, albeit with less ground covered, and complete steadiness traded for retrieving.) I suppose it could also be said that there is but one Invitational each year, so the dog has to be "on" that day to earn that title, while over that same time frame a trial dog can have a dozen or more opportunities to win. The merits of each venue could be argued forever. Deciding which one is best for any of us probably comes down to the owners' priorities and pocketbook, along with the accessibility of the events. Your horseback game is a great one, with a storied tradition and some great dogs, but it's one of many venues, and no better and no worse than any of the others.

Firemedic · Post by **Firemedic** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:37 am

ckirsch wrote:Ultracarry If your hunting partner (assuming you can find one capable of tolerating your ego)

I thought I was the only one to notice. Wierd.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:41 am

snips wrote:I would like to see more horse-back shooting dogs show versatility in a test situation. Thats why I said they do not care about it...I would have alot of respect for any gun dog or shooting dog that proves he can adjust to versatile venue. Rick's Fritz did it and I am going to try.

Why should my pointer show versatility? They aren't a versatile breed. We don't claim to be. We know who we are, and are quite fine with it.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:43 am

snips wrote:I would like to see more horse-back shooting dogs show versatility in a test situation. Thats why I said they do not care about it...I would have alot of respect for any gun dog or shooting dog that proves he can adjust to versatile venue. Rick's Fritz did it and I am going to try.

Do we see another alphabet dog coming soon

Getting the cheering section together

Firemedic · Post by **Firemedic** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:45 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
snips wrote:I would like to see more horse-back shooting dogs show versatility in a test situation. Thats why I said they do not care about it...I would have alot of respect for any gun dog or shooting dog that proves he can adjust to versatile venue. Rick's Fritz did it and I am going to try.
Why should my pointer show versatility? They aren't a versatile breed. We don't claim to be. We know who we are, and are quite fine with it.

Agreed. That is probably the best post on this thread.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:56 am

Shoulda worded it better, GSP's. (altho my last EP would give any dog a run for the money in the water!)

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:19 am

gpblitz wrote:
ckirsch wrote:I suppose it could also be said that there is but one Invitational each year, so the dog has to be "on" that day to earn that title
Wasn't that long ago the invitational was held every other year.

And at last year's event in Iowa there was one of those non-versatile Pointers that earned it's VC Title.......congrats Ckirsch!

Coveyrise64

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:28 am

For those of you inclined to minimize the dogs and sport of others shame on you...I hope that you are either young and immature, or that in some way this internet forum is validation enough for you and your exploits to fill the void that has left you with the inferiority complex that drives you. If it is then it has served a purpose and maybe you can get on with a productive life of dog work that can only be enriched and furthered with an open mind. You have all read, (or should have if you are as learned as your rather pointed specific posts would want others to believe) Bill Tarrants accounts of Delmar Smith watching the circus trainers to learn about critters. Maybe you respect him, maybe you don't but it's tough to argue his credentials, he thought he could learn by watching people teach elephants to balance on balls.

I believe versatile dogs are a more complete package when trained for most hunters (not all but most) and the more diverse your training is the more complicated it gets. There are traits in a field dog that I prefer to see cultivated to their highest level, style, ground coverage, manners all are things conducive to horseback Ft's. So that's where I go. However, I can assure you when time permits, I watch and pick the brain of the real players in any other venue I can. I apologize for the broad brush, but there are a couple of statements in this thread that are really silly.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:35 am

It is what it is ,we all play the game we like, so lets get on with it ! All the venues are good for the sporting dog world. Divided we fall, United we might be able to stop all those folks that want to shut us down and that includes your local state DNR. And thats my speech on the above named topic......

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:17 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
snips wrote:I would like to see more horse-back shooting dogs show versatility in a test situation. Thats why I said they do not care about it...I would have alot of respect for any gun dog or shooting dog that proves he can adjust to versatile venue. Rick's Fritz did it and I am going to try.
Why should my pointer show versatility? They aren't a versatile breed. We don't claim to be. We know who we are, and are quite fine with it.

Who's demanding that your pointer show versatility? Might not be a priority for you, and that's fine. On the other hand, why would it bother you that I like to see some versatility out of mine? I enjoy tests and NSTRA, but the number one reason I own the dog is to hunt. For me, the dog games are just off-season entertainment. And while I enjoy my pointer's style and athleticism, I value a dog's ability to track cripples and make retrieves in a variety of circumstances, things that I assume most hunters would find very useful. I also duck and goose hunt once in a blue moon, and I get a kick of my pointer being able to perform some early-season work in that regard. While I'm sure he'd rather be making casts for sharptails on the grasslands, I've no doubt that he'd rather retrieve ducks than sit in his kennel.

We've acknowledged the talent of horseback dogs, understand the unique challenges they are presented with, and admire what they can do, but that doesn't diminish what the top dogs in other venues accomplish.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:48 am

Makes me wonder sometimes just what does go through a persons head that allows them to always think what they like or think is better than everyone else's likes. Seems on these threads we always start with a good question, then read a lot of garbage till the people with some common sense say enough and finally speak up. Takes too long most of the time but thanks that you all finally do.

Page three and finally several well thought out post from people who have had enough experiences to know what is important in our world and are able to state it in a reasonable manner.

Thank you,

Ezzy

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:05 pm

ckirsch wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:
snips wrote:I would like to see more horse-back shooting dogs show versatility in a test situation. Thats why I said they do not care about it...I would have alot of respect for any gun dog or shooting dog that proves he can adjust to versatile venue. Rick's Fritz did it and I am going to try.
Why should my pointer show versatility? They aren't a versatile breed. We don't claim to be. We know who we are, and are quite fine with it.
Who's demanding that your pointer show versatility? Might not be a priority for you, and that's fine. On the other hand, why would it bother you that I like to see some versatility out of mine? I enjoy tests and NSTRA, but the number one reason I own the dog is to hunt. For me, the dog games are just off-season entertainment. And while I enjoy my pointer's style and athleticism, I value a dog's ability to track cripples and make retrieves in a variety of circumstances, things that I assume most hunters would find very useful. I also duck and goose hunt once in a blue moon, and I get a kick of my pointer being able to perform some early-season work in that regard. While I'm sure he'd rather be making casts for sharptails on the grasslands, I've no doubt that he'd rather retrieve ducks than sit in his kennel.

We've acknowledged the talent of horseback dogs, understand the unique challenges they are presented with, and admire what they can do, but that doesn't diminish what the top dogs in other venues accomplish.

What part of making a retrieve make your dog a versatile dog? I mentioned nothing of the sort. All my hunting dogs retrieve. Do I feel they need to water retrieve. NO! Or sit in a duck blind? NO! Or make a blind retrieve? NO! If so, id own a "pointing" lab. ha

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:15 pm

I have yet to see where any of my posts have stated one event is better then the other. The only thing I read was people jumping to conclusions about me bashing hunt tests and NAVHDA.

Sorry to burst your bubble and not justify you having hurt feelings but I do hunt tests. If you look you.can see that I train for them and actually run my own dog when I can. I'm sorry I haven't done NAVHDA yet but I assure you I will train for it in the future.

I also never said I would not do NSTRA. I also plan on making an event as I know people who are involved it it and would not mind hanging out.with a.good group of guys. I was never taking away from a versatile dog accomplishments and if I did please post it in a quote without selecting a partial sentence as I would like to see it.

Again sorry for the hurt feelings. Those who have hurt feelings may want to check them at the front door. And please stop thinking you are victimized by mean people on the web over a event.