No NSTRA Winnings On Pedigree?

bhairhoger · Post by **bhairhoger** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:28 pm

If you look on the website for NAVHDA you can see with your own two eyes where they are judged against a standard. If you look on the AKC you can see where field trials are judged based upon performance 1-4 place.

If you do not have the best dog that day you will not win a field trial even if your dog gets through clean if it does not physically perform to the judges standard.

Ok after reading this I have 1 question. With NAVHDA being a judged event, if they run 10 dogs and all 10 dogs do poor no one gets a prize. What happens if they hold a field trial and all dogs that day do extremely poor do they still give someone 1st place? If so, do you think that is a true representation to the dogs ability?

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:34 pm

bhairhoger wrote:
If you look on the website for NAVHDA you can see with your own two eyes where they are judged against a standard. If you look on the AKC you can see where field trials are judged based upon performance 1-4 place.

If you do not have the best dog that day you will not win a field trial even if your dog gets through clean if it does not physically perform to the judges standard.
Ok after reading this I have 1 question. With NAVHDA being a judged event, if they run 10 dogs and all 10 dogs do poor no one gets a prize. What happens if they hold a field trial and all dogs that day do extremely poor do they still give someone 1st place? If so, do you think that is a true representation to the dogs ability?

No! They are being judged to a standard in both venues and then in the field trial they are placed as to which dog that passed the standard did the best. They just run the dogs two at a time so they can get more run in a day. Really not a lot of difference in the results but just a different procedure to get to the final rating.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:38 pm

if they hold a field trial and all dogs that day do extremely poor do they still give someone 1st place? If so, do you think that is a true representation to the dogs ability?

No they do not. They withold placements a great deal if dogs do not perform well enough, it could be any one of the four placements, a combination, or all of them in an AKC event. I will guess that 50% of the trials I attend end up with a placement or multiple placements witheld.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:26 pm

ultracarry

I have yet to see where any of my posts have stated one event is better then the other. The only thing I read was people jumping to conclusions about me bashing hunt tests and NAVHDA.

FYI if field trailers would train those dogs to do NAVHDA they would probably Excel at it. Where as you could train a high speed low drag dog to do what you want but if the dog does not have the speed or desire that is requiredat at field trial dog it could get through clean but would never place against the higher calibre dogs.

If my dog slows down or does not have as much stamina or.drive or I run out of money I will be doing NAVHDA with her and she would do great. I would make a grantee but...

Sounds to me like your saying you can take your old dog and have success in NAVHDA, I believe people who play that game would consider that an insult. I believe these full paragraphs written by you would lead people to believe that your game is better than the other.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:51 pm

Sounds to me like your saying you can take your old dog and have success in NAVHDA, I believe people who play that game would consider that an insult. I believe these full paragraphs written by you would lead people to believe that your game is better than the other.

or is he saying that currently he chose FT and his dog does well in them, but if something were to change, he would look to NAVHDA for another avenue his dog could to well in?

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:50 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:What part of making a retrieve make your dog a versatile dog? I mentioned nothing of the sort. All my hunting dogs retrieve. Do I feel they need to water retrieve. NO! Or sit in a duck blind? NO! Or make a blind retrieve? NO! If so, id own a "pointing" lab. ha

The components of a retrieve that make my dog versatile include the ability to perform blind retrieves, and the ability to deal with water. The tracking required in NAVHDA also fortifies a trait that is pretty valuable for hunting. You might have different expectations of your dogs, and that's fine. Why would you object to what I ask of mine? If someone in my hunting party knocks a bird down, away from my dog, it is helpful to be able to line the dog up on the spot and send him out for the blind retrieve. I would think any hunter would find that a useful trait. The handful of dams I jump for ducks and geese each year don't merit feeding a lab all year, so if I want my pointer to be able to jump in the water and fetch a duck or two, where's the harm in that? To be very honest, there are very few practical applications for seven hundred yard casts where I hunt here in South Dakota, but you've not heard me denigrate horseback guys about that. Do whatever you want with your time and your dog, then extend that courtesy to the rest of us.

Ultra; I doubt any of us are worried about the "hurt feelings" you seem so anxious to take credit for. We were just letting you know that you come across as a bit obnoxious. You lamented our "jumping to conclusions" that you were insulting the venues that you admitted you've no experience with. Take another run at your own posts. "If my dog slows down or does not have as much stamina or.drive or I run out of money I will be doing NAVHDA with her and she would do great. I would make a grantee but..." You know very little about the venues some of us participate in, but you're willing to "grantee" that your dog will clean up on them when she's too old and worn out to continue trialing. Are you actually surprised that anyone might interpret that as negative? I would guess that legitimate AF guys must cringe when they read your posts, as you don't serve as a very effective ambassador for the sport.

dockgsp · Post by **dockgsp** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:17 pm

Some of these posts sound like bar talk after too many adult, amber colored beverages.

I do AKC horseback and walking trials. Also hunt tests. I don't do AF because they don't include retrievng stakes and that's their call. I've done NAVHDA also.

Never did NASTRA, there no events reasonaly close. All of these venues are great. They all have their own standards. Pick one or two and jump in with both feet. Have a great time, life is too short to rag someone over the way they drink their coffee. Pick one and work to be on top of that game or just participate for the for the pure fun of it. I even like to watch an agility event on TV, even though I would never get into it.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:23 pm

Lol sorry but I can no longer post on this topic.... I will no longer be posting anything that can be deemed inappropriate to some people. I will also not post in a topic where I do not agree with people.
Thanks,
Tyler

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:06 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:I went to my second NSTRA trial, just as a spectator, last Sunday. The president of the club asked me if I would plant birds at the next trial. $320 for 2 days of planting birds, why not? I'm engaged and mind as well get money while I can .

They offered to pay you $320 to plant birds :roll: . Do you know how to plant/sleep birds so they will stay down and not walk around and make sure that you cover the whole field and run loops to attempt to shake the tracking dogs. IMO, the bird planter is the most important person at a trial. I for one can't stand it when planters just make an arch and give the trial away or have birds walking out of the field.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:10 am

Ron R wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:I went to my second NSTRA trial, just as a spectator, last Sunday. The president of the club asked me if I would plant birds at the next trial. $320 for 2 days of planting birds, why not? I'm engaged and mind as well get money while I can .
They offered to pay you $320 to plant birds :roll: . Do you know how to plant/sleep birds so they will stay down and not walk around and make sure that you cover the whole field and run loops to attempt to shake the tracking dogs. IMO, the bird planter is the most important person at a trial. I for one can't stand it when planters just make an arch and give the trial away or have birds walking out of the field.

Do they always put them to sleep? How does that simulate wild bird hunting? Might as well run BDC. lol

Doug

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:20 am

We had a trial out here where some dudes from GA were out there running, and they said that back east the bird planters have to do all sorts of circles and figure eights to try and confuse the four wheeler tracking dogs! Crazy!

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:33 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:How does that simulate wild bird hunting?

NSTRA trials has nothing to do with wild birdhunting...Hence open fields and stay out of the woods. Anybody that has ran NSTRA would never compare it to hunting. It's just a game that I enjoy along with NAVHDA and NBHA. Nothing's like wild birdhunting IMO.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Might as well run BDC.

Not hardly...NSTRA has a scoring system, not just a race against the clock. BDC has a 5 acre field with every bird replaced in the same location.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:25 pm

You have to drive a very different pattern after every brace so dogs can't just follow the 4 wheeler. It was all explained to me last time I went to a trial and I read the rule book on it. The regional championships had the top bird planter in the state and there was a 12 year old GSP that they said literally creeped on the ground and followed the 4 wheeler tracks through the entire course. Nothing simulates real wild bird hunting, nothing. This is just something to pass the time by until I can get out and hunt again.

Firemedic · Post by **Firemedic** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:38 pm

ElectricShorthairs wrote:You have to drive a very different pattern after every brace so dogs can't just follow the 4 wheeler. It was all explained to me last time I went to a trial and I read the rule book on it. The regional championships had the top bird planter in the state and there was a 12 year old GSP that they said literally creeped on the ground and followed the 4 wheeler tracks through the entire course. Nothing simulates real wild bird hunting, nothing. This is just something to pass the time by until I can get out and hunt again.

320 is a lot! we pay 75 a day in our region. However, this "creeping" issue with this dog will for sure get a horrible ground coverage score.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:49 pm

Firemedic wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:You have to drive a very different pattern after every brace so dogs can't just follow the 4 wheeler. It was all explained to me last time I went to a trial and I read the rule book on it. The regional championships had the top bird planter in the state and there was a 12 year old GSP that they said literally creeped on the ground and followed the 4 wheeler tracks through the entire course. Nothing simulates real wild bird hunting, nothing. This is just something to pass the time by until I can get out and hunt again.

320 is a lot! we pay 75 a day in our region. However, this "creeping" issue with this dog will for sure get a horrible ground coverage score.

Maybe at twelve he was doing good to creep?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:02 pm

Firemedic wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:You have to drive a very different pattern after every brace so dogs can't just follow the 4 wheeler. It was all explained to me last time I went to a trial and I read the rule book on it. The regional championships had the top bird planter in the state and there was a 12 year old GSP that they said literally creeped on the ground and followed the 4 wheeler tracks through the entire course. Nothing simulates real wild bird hunting, nothing. This is just something to pass the time by until I can get out and hunt again.

320 is a lot! we pay 75 a day in our region. However, this "creeping" issue with this dog will for sure get a horrible ground coverage score.

nothing like seeing a dog that looks horrid on their bird come out with 6 bird 6 retrieves and loose out to a dog that had 5 birds and 5 retrieves

One dog I was judging I told the owner if the dog took anymore steps he would owe me points

Agree on Nothing truly emulates real hunting where we release pen raised birds..Every place has different hunting conditions so you can hunt in trees or be in flat grass lands to stop and have pure wild birds come out of the grass under your feet

Trials are for our amusement. nt everyone is going to find the same game fun..so we make different games up to play

Kinda like the Coke and Pepsi or Budweiser and Coors or Millers Full or Light or even schafer beer...They are all making money because each one of us enjoy a certain flavor. At least we have the choice to to choose from as I sure would hate to have to be forced to drink schafers

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:17 pm

ElectricShorthairs wrote:You have to drive a very different pattern after every brace so dogs can't just follow the 4 wheeler.

More importantly, ride the entire field every brace, go deep into the corners, and use the middle of the field and try not to be predictable because you are being closely watched. Good Luck

.

Firemedic wrote:320 is a lot! we pay 75 a day in our region.

Us too.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:59 pm

Firemedic wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:You have to drive a very different pattern after every brace so dogs can't just follow the 4 wheeler. It was all explained to me last time I went to a trial and I read the rule book on it. The regional championships had the top bird planter in the state and there was a 12 year old GSP that they said literally creeped on the ground and followed the 4 wheeler tracks through the entire course. Nothing simulates real wild bird hunting, nothing. This is just something to pass the time by until I can get out and hunt again.

320 is a lot! we pay 75 a day in our region. However, this "creeping" issue with this dog will for sure get a horrible ground coverage score.

Heck even at 75 that's a deal. I got a prime rib dinner and was tickled over getting that usually its just a thank you and that works!!!

Firemedic · Post by **Firemedic** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:04 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:
Firemedic wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:You have to drive a very different pattern after every brace so dogs can't just follow the 4 wheeler. It was all explained to me last time I went to a trial and I read the rule book on it. The regional championships had the top bird planter in the state and there was a 12 year old GSP that they said literally creeped on the ground and followed the 4 wheeler tracks through the entire course. Nothing simulates real wild bird hunting, nothing. This is just something to pass the time by until I can get out and hunt again.

320 is a lot! we pay 75 a day in our region. However, this "creeping" issue with this dog will for sure get a horrible ground coverage score.
Heck even at 75 that's a deal. I got a prime rib dinner and was tickled over getting that usually its just a thank you and that works!!!

I try to plant one day, and run the next. It cost 280 to run 2 dogs in a weekend trial, so planting one day helps!

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:35 pm

I plant for my club trials and all I get is a thank you.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:38 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
ultracarry wrote:]
Hey Knine you forgot to make the last sentence bold.....

I'll give you bold

I love that laugh of Mutley's!!!

Thanks, I needed that!!

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:39 pm

myerstenn wrote:It is what it is ,we all play the game we like, so lets get on with it ! All the venues are good for the sporting dog world. Divided we fall, United we might be able to stop all those folks that want to shut us down and that includes your local state DNR. And thats my speech on the above named topic......

My thoughts exactly!!

Charlie

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:04 am

I asked if I could plant one day and compete the next and they said it wasn't allowed. Cause I'd know where a bird build up might be, but shouldn't I be able to compete the first day and plant the second?

Firemedic · Post by **Firemedic** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:11 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:I asked if I could plant one day and compete the next and they said it wasn't allowed. Cause I'd know where a bird build up might be, but shouldn't I be able to compete the first day and plant the second?

Our region runs mostly double/doubles. Meaning, you run 2 fields, once each day, both days. They are all considered separate trials. I see no reason you couldn't run a day, plant/judge the next.

As far as "bird build up", our region cleans the fields right after the trial is finished for the day, and the next morning before it starts.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:42 am

Firemedic wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:I asked if I could plant one day and compete the next and they said it wasn't allowed. Cause I'd know where a bird build up might be, but shouldn't I be able to compete the first day and plant the second?
Our region runs mostly double/doubles. Meaning, you run 2 fields, once each day, both days. They are all considered separate trials. I see no reason you couldn't run a day, plant/judge the next.

As far as "bird build up", our region cleans the fields right after the trial is finished for the day, and the next morning before it starts.

Yes you can plant birds one day and run your dog the next or visa verse same with judging

You can not plant and run your dog the same day

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:04 am

Firemedic wrote:As far as "bird build up", our region cleans the fields right after the trial is finished for the day, and the next morning before it starts.

That's how it works in all of the regions that I have ran in (MSM,NI,IL,MoKan,IN) but I'm pretty sure it's common practice through out all of NSTRA.

Electric Shorthairs, alot of the details that you have mentioned just doesn't add up from $320 paid to the bird planter, and this;

ElectricShorthairs wrote:I asked if I could plant one day and compete the next and they said it wasn't allowed. Cause I'd know where a bird build up might be,

Alot of people will judge or plant one day and run the other. In fact, rarely will you have the same judges/planter for a weekend trial jugde/plant both days unless they are not running a dog or thier dog came into heat/got injured. Are you sure that you're understanding this person that your speaking to correctly? I'm guesing that the $320 is in fact $32 or the entry fee per field planted. So if you're planting a double you would get $64 per day. Like I stated before, every trial chairman makes sure that the fields are cleaned thoroughly before the first brace is ran.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:11 am

All Fields are supposed to be run and cleaned before and after the trial officially begins...

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:37 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
Ron R wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:I went to my second NSTRA trial, just as a spectator, last Sunday. The president of the club asked me if I would plant birds at the next trial. $320 for 2 days of planting birds, why not? I'm engaged and mind as well get money while I can .
They offered to pay you $320 to plant birds :roll: . Do you know how to plant/sleep birds so they will stay down and not walk around and make sure that you cover the whole field and run loops to attempt to shake the tracking dogs. IMO, the bird planter is the most important person at a trial. I for one can't stand it when planters just make an arch and give the trial away or have birds walking out of the field.
Do they always put them to sleep? How does that simulate wild bird hunting? Might as well run BDC. lol

Doug

I don't believe there is a "Non-planted" trial around that does not dizzy/sleep the birds.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:20 pm

I was told a planter got paid $100 for a day of planting and $60 if you had your own 4 wheeler, per day. So $160 per day. that is just my understanding of it. I spoke with the president this morning and he confirmed it. I've been to 3 NSTRA trials and they've had the same bird planter every time and only once did a judge switch out. I'm a newbie at this so very well could be wrong. But that is what I was told.

Ron R wrote:
Firemedic wrote:As far as "bird build up", our region cleans the fields right after the trial is finished for the day, and the next morning before it starts.
That's how it works in all of the regions that I have ran in (MSM,NI,IL,MoKan,IN) but I'm pretty sure it's common practice through out all of NSTRA.

Electric Shorthairs, alot of the details that you have mentioned just doesn't add up from $320 paid to the bird planter, and this;
ElectricShorthairs wrote:I asked if I could plant one day and compete the next and they said it wasn't allowed. Cause I'd know where a bird build up might be,

Alot of people will judge or plant one day and run the other. In fact, rarely will you have the same judges/planter for a weekend trial jugde/plant both days unless they are not running a dog or thier dog came into heat/got injured. Are you sure that you're understanding this person that your speaking to correctly? I'm guesing that the $320 is in fact $32 or the entry fee per field planted. So if you're planting a double you would get $64 per day. Like I stated before, every trial chairman makes sure that the fields are cleaned thoroughly before the first brace is ran.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:32 pm

Regardless, I'm glad that you are enjoying NSTRA and I wish you the best of luck

.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:29 pm

Thanks. I'm not competing until next fall, gives me a good off-season to work on some training issues. Lol :roll:

Drifter Saver · Post by **Drifter Saver** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:02 pm

On a more important note, check out the new link established for monitoring national trials:

www.NATIONALTRIALS.com

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:31 pm

Drifter Saver wrote:On a more important note, check out the new link established for monitoring national trials:

http://www.NATIONALTRIALS.com

Very Cool

.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:13 am

Ron R wrote:
Drifter Saver wrote:On a more important note, check out the new link established for monitoring national trials:

http://www.NATIONALTRIALS.com
Very Cool .

Great website! Very nice and well done!

BirdDogJoe · Post by **BirdDogJoe** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:35 am

slistoe wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I think it is odd that dogs can't adjust to trial conditions but they can always adjust to hunting conditions. I am yet to see a good dog that can't adjust to its environment and the birds in it.

Ezzy
Ezzy, you know very well that a dog that won't/can't go 400 yards on a cast can be very serviceable as a Hunt Test Dog, NAVHDA Dog, NSTRA dog, Hunting dog but it will never be a Horseback Shooting Dog no matter how much you try to "adjust" it. But a dog that can and will handle on 400 yard casts can be easily "adjusted" to any of the aforementioned activities.
Of course NSTRA may be a little tougher than the others since you cannot get by there by merely being serviceable either - you must be able to WIN.

I disagree that a Horseback shooting dog can run NSTRA without an issue. I wanted to get into the bird dog game so I purchased a dog bred with AKC FC AFC lines (Sire is a FC AFC, and Dam is a past #1 derby dog). Being new to the game and without a lot of disposable income or time to travel, AKC or AF trialing aren't for me. I joined a local club, and run my dog in club trials that follow the NSTRA format. It is an absolute blast. My problem is that my dog runs so big, that upon release he takes off to the back of the field. In the last trial, I watched the bird planter plant a bird 15 yards from the front of the field in the brace before mine that was not found. After my dog got to the back of the field I whistled him back. He pointed that bird and another as we covered the ground he already ran over.

I will admit I am not a good trainer, but my experience tells me that your statement about "adjusting" a big running dog to the NSTRA format is not as easy as you make it sound. He is still young, and I am a novice so a lot of that is probably my fault. I am open to your advice, and I am sure my training mistakes will be pointed out, but remember I play this game purely for the love of the dogs and hunting. I could not care less about championships. I love the NSTRA format because I can watch beautiful dogs doing what they were bred to do without having to find a way to get a horse to ride in a gallery. I can stand on an observation deck with binoculars and watch dogs point all day.

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