No NSTRA Winnings On Pedigree?

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:42 pm

I went to my second NSTRA trial, just as a spectator, last Sunday. The president of the club asked me if I would plant birds at the next trial. $320 for 2 days of planting birds, why not? I'm engaged and mind as well get money while I can

. I rode with a judge a few time and we started talking about pedigree's etc. Why don't NSTRA Ch. show up on pedigrees? According to him it was and is a money issue. Just wondering! Thanks for any and all info!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:04 pm

ES there are others here more qualified to answer your question,but I do believe they are listed if you get your ped from the NSTRA registry.AKC,FDSB,NSTRA,all have there own registries & only keep track of list & recognise titles from their own registries.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:15 pm

It wasnt a money issue, the Field and NSTRA couldn't agree on the awarding of titles ( CH ) , so NSTRA decided to award their own titles and go it alone, thier titles are just not recognized by any other registry at this time and consequently dont show up on the major registeries pedigrees

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:31 pm

What exactly couldn't they agree on? Is there ever hope of it changing anytime soon?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:03 pm

NSTRA Championships did use to be recorded till american field wanted Nstra to stop shooting birds and stop the scoring system. This the cause for the final split off. As for records one can go to the www.Nstra.org site and see all said dogs winnings and how many times they chmapioned. But it was about 10.years ago the AF placemnts stoppedand then a couple years later the championship. Wins stopped even though they were held by the at regulations of a 1 hour final stake as prescribed by american field. Was a sad day as how many different names can you run one format

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:02 pm

My 15 month old brittany whose pedigree is below but not pictured to the right won a 2nd place in a NSTRA in Lubbock two weeks ago.....so proud.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:31 pm

Redfishkilla wrote:My 15 month old brittany whose pedigree is below but not pictured to the right won a 2nd place in a NSTRA in Lubbock two weeks ago.....so proud.

http://www.nstra.org/Members/detail.asp?idnum=23160

Looks like you got a 4th place in Amarillo also http://www.nstra.org/Members/trial.asp?idnum=23160

nice start..

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:41 pm

Why would the AF want them to stop shooting birds etc? What does that have to do with it?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:48 pm

they tried to blame it after a while on Insurance was the final excuse..which NSTRA has always had their own Insurance

What gets me is as much as we bird dog people trialers of Any kind really need to band together we let our Egos of what each little group thinks is the best and only way drive a wedge down and divided we will ALL lose but the Antis are trying to take advantage of it

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:45 am

So if someone were to have a NSTRA Ch and someone else had an AKC FT Ch, is the AKC CH thought of in higher regards? If that makes sense?

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:07 am

Depends on who gets it.....If you get a NSTRA Ch you would probably look at it in higher regards...Same for AKC.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:16 am

I guess I was speaking in a more general term, how does the majority of the bird dog FT world look at it?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:32 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:I guess I was speaking in a more general term, how does the majority of the bird dog FT world look at it?

If it is a pointer or English or Irish setter the American Field FDSB pedigree is what is looked at by most.

If it is a Brittany, GSP. Wirehair, Vizsla, Weimaraner, Gordon setter the AKC pedigree is what is looked at by most.

I do not know the ins and outs of what caused the split between NSTRA and the Am. Field .

Even though NSTRA is not my game, I thnk it is a unfortunate, and a loss, that the top winners in NSTRA, the dogs that have survived multiple eliminations in National and regional competitions, are not recognized on FDSB pedigrees.

The very best of NSTRA competitors are most certainly very worthy dogs and that should be recognized for the betterment of the breed, I think.

RayG

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:50 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:I guess I was speaking in a more general term, how does the majority of the bird dog FT world look at it?

NSTRA trials do not require the dogs to be steady to the level required in AKC and American Field. The same dogs can and are doing all types and the same pedigrees afe found in all.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:09 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:I guess I was speaking in a more general term, how does the majority of the bird dog FT world look at it?

JMO, and it isn't right or wrong. But a NSTRA Ch. means nothing to me personally. Im not saying that there aren't good dogs that play that game.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:I guess I was speaking in a more general term, how does the majority of the bird dog FT world look at it?
JMO, and it isn't right or wrong. But a NSTRA Ch. means nothing to me personally. Im not saying that there aren't good dogs that play that game.

I'm the opposite, but could say the exact same thing you did.

I learned to hunt from guys that had dogs that were from NASTRA bloodlines, and some who run NASTRA. I liked the dogs, and while I don't FT (yet, we have a member here that has about convinced me to try it with this new pup) I've stuck with the same bloodlines.

I don't think there is a general consensus, there are the different games for a reason. Kinda like asking what is "better" drag racing or circle track?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:43 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:I guess I was speaking in a more general term, how does the majority of the bird dog FT world look at it?
NSTRA trials do not require the dogs to be steady to the level required in AKC and American Field. The same dogs can and are doing all types and the same pedigrees afe found in all.

So because the training maybe a bit different does it make a dog less worthy...A dog has to maintain for every bird being fully worked and many dogs get washed out because they can't handle the pressure and loose it in the field as they do have to remain on point till the flush ..But most all of the people train till shot at least

also when we have a marked bird the dog needs to come off of that bird for 3 minutes and then come back and Point that very bird...That is huge pressure as many dog will give chase because they are wanting to retrieve that bird at first and then a lot of dogs have a problem pointing a bird they already know about ...That is huge pressure on a dog.

Thing is people enjoy it ..Look at the National dog attendance our Dog of the Year gets filled with 192 dogs every year...The trial of champions this year only had 112 dogs enter
http://www.nstra.org/champion.htm

here is the performance standings http://www.nstra.org/current_standings_New.htm this is only regular weekend trial points that are counted to Maximum pts for each trial won is 3 pts for first ,2pts for second and 1pt for third

http://www.nstra.org/members/search.asp here you can go and find any dog http://www.nstra.org/members/detail.asp?idnum=3996 then you can click view activities and see all the trials that the dog placed in which lets you know what Trial Name Format Location Date Dogs Place Points Score http://www.nstra.org/members/trial.asp?idnum=3996

Again everyone can find something in venues they don't run to look down on knock and jab at...it serves no purpose other then to come across as a my venue is better then yours and sorry it isn't it is different and in this case it is what I enjoy and I enjoy what I do just as much as you enjoy what you do...and besides if all games have to be played by the same rules and regulations then why have different organizations almost sounds socialist to me and i like having freedom of choice to do and play at what I enjoy...and Hey I used to look down my nose at tournament hunts but you know what I have since grown up and realized that the people who work hard and play at that venue have the same rights to be happy and not have to defend their game as I do mine and You do yours

also in any venue to have a dog that excels takes a good dog ...to have a dog that wins and wins and wins takes a dog that gets out and does what needs to be done. it also takes a dog that won't burn out. Takes a dog to work and be a team. run offs will not excels at any venue.soured out dogs will not work in any venue dogs that do not want to work birds will not work in any venue.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:09 am

kninebirddog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:I guess I was speaking in a more general term, how does the majority of the bird dog FT world look at it?
NSTRA trials do not require the dogs to be steady to the level required in AKC and American Field. The same dogs can and are doing all types and the same pedigrees afe found in all.

So because the training maybe a bit different does it make a dog less worthy...A dog has to maintain for every bird being fully worked and many dogs get washed out because they can't handle the pressure and loose it in the field as they do have to remain on point till the flush ..But most all of the people train till shot at least

also when we have a marked bird the dog needs to come off of that bird for 3 minutes and then come back and Point that very bird...That is huge pressure as many dog will give chase because they are wanting to retrieve that bird at first and then a lot of dogs have a problem pointing a bird they already know about ...That is huge pressure on a dog.

Thing is people enjoy it ..Look at the National dog attendance our Dog of the Year gets filled with 192 dogs every year...The trial of champions this year only had 112 dogs enter
http://www.nstra.org/champion.htm

here is the performance standings http://www.nstra.org/current_standings_New.htm this is only regular weekend trial points that are counted to Maximum pts for each trial won is 3 pts for first ,2pts for second and 1pt for third

http://www.nstra.org/members/search.asp here you can go and find any dog http://www.nstra.org/members/detail.asp?idnum=3996 then you can click view activities and see all the trials that the dog placed in which lets you know what Trial Name Format Location Date Dogs Place Points Score http://www.nstra.org/members/trial.asp?idnum=3996

Again everyone can find something in venues they don't run to look down on knock and jab at...it serves no purpose other then to come across as a my venue is better then yours and sorry it isn't it is different and in this case it is what I enjoy and I enjoy what I do just as much as you enjoy what you do...and besides if all games have to be played by the same rules and regulations then why have different organizations almost sounds socialist to me and i like having freedom of choice to do and play at what I enjoy...and Hey I used to look down my nose at tournament hunts but you know what I have since grown up and realized that the people who work hard and play at that venue have the same rights to be happy and not have to defend their game as I do mine and You do yours

also in any venue to have a dog that excels takes a good dog ...to have a dog that wins and wins and wins takes a dog that gets out and does what needs to be done. it also takes a dog that won't burn out. Takes a dog to work and be a team. run offs will not excels at any venue.soured out dogs will not work in any venue dogs that do not want to work birds will not work in any venue.

Someone got a little defensive there...

I didn't read her post as bashing NASTRA at all.

It's a FACT, the level of steadiness required in NASTRA is less than that in AKC/AF. That is a whole different debate, the same bloodlines and dogs can do both/either. She acknowledged that.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:17 am

Maybe just a little..Over stated on part...

at least I can admit going a little over board ..knee jerk reaction...

Comes from to many times of defending what I enjoy..PS not that I do not enjoy when a dog or pup of mine does good in another venue

I am just as happy

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:33 am

NSTRA is a good venue. Just not mine of choice. The expectations and demands of AF or AKC Champions, IMO, is a higher level of difficulty. Not only the mental aspect of being broke, but the endurance that has to be there to compete in an hour championship, an hour and a half endurance trial or the 3 hour national. It is not a jab at all at NSTRA. I am friends with a lot of NSTRA folks and we can talk dogs all day long. We agree on some and disagree on others.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:41 am

kninebirddog wrote: Maybe just a little..Over stated on part... at least I can admit going a little over board ..knee jerk reaction...

Comes from to many times of defending what I enjoy..PS not that I do not enjoy when a dog or pup of mine does good in another venue

I am just as happy

I was just trying to jump in before it got sidetracked.

I think I'm gonna try the NASTRA game, I also want to train this one to release on command, not on flush/shot. (Don't tell CC

)

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:45 am

ElhewPointer wrote:NSTRA is a good venue. Just not mine of choice. The expectations and demands of AF or AKC Champions, IMO, is a higher level of difficulty. Not only the mental aspect of being broke, but the endurance that has to be there to compete in an hour championship, an hour and a half endurance trial or the 3 hour national. It is not a jab at all at NSTRA. I am friends with a lot of NSTRA folks and we can talk dogs all day long. We agree on some and disagree on others.

Actually if you want to win at a state Regional trial or a National trial you dog better be in good enough condition to run on the final day to run a few 30 minute qualifying braces and then if your dog wins those elimination braces and makes the top two dogs it better be ready to finish with a full hour brace to be classified as Champion and Runner Up

but yes just like the bulk of regular weekend trials are full 30 minute stakes

And Agree it isn't like the Ames 3 hours trial or other major set the bar type trials. Those are special trials with in themselves ,not everyone wants to run or can get there but at least everyone should have a high respect for the dogs that do win those trials. it is a true test of what a dog has in them to go be in shape and the ability to be in shape for it and the desire to do the entire brace and keep the judges looking at them to even be considered

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:52 am

displaced_texan wrote:
kninebirddog wrote: Maybe just a little..Over stated on part... at least I can admit going a little over board ..knee jerk reaction...

Comes from to many times of defending what I enjoy..PS not that I do not enjoy when a dog or pup of mine does good in another venue

I am just as happy
I was just trying to jump in before it got sidetracked.

I think I'm gonna try the NASTRA game, I also want to train this one to release on command, not on flush/shot. (Don't tell CC )

PS I have a couple friends and people I know that do that one guy I finally had to tell him to pick a venue till the dog had that one down fully as it is a young dog he was trying to run in the AKC retrieve stakes and then NSTRA and it was proving to be to much to go from a course to a field for the dog the NSTRA trials had to much bird work and the dog would loose his marbles where in the AKC being a course and a bird here or there was much easier for the young dog to handle and remain broke to those aspects of what the owner wanted

also
If you train for that many people question what you are allowed to do after you shoot the bird, YES you can advance to your dog to release for the retrieve but FYI where ever you are when your dog releases for the retrieve you must stay there till the dog retrieves the bird to you so if the dog breaks before you get to it for the retrieve stop and don't move till you have your bird in hand.

Looking forward to hearing how your dogs does

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:00 am

It just seems like most view NSTRA as second rate behind AF or NBHA etc. I'm just wondering if later on down the line if I were to have a few NSTRA Ch. (boy is THAT a stretch) and I were to breed them if anyone outside of NSTRA would find them to be second rate dogs. And it seems that NSTRA doesn't get brought up nearly as much as AF etc. Just like the BDC. I know it's comparing apples and oranges, but for instance on te best trial GSP's ever thread no NSTRA dog was brought up.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:01 am

displaced_texan wrote:
kninebirddog wrote: Maybe just a little..Over stated on part... at least I can admit going a little over board ..knee jerk reaction...

Comes from to many times of defending what I enjoy..PS not that I do not enjoy when a dog or pup of mine does good in another venue

I am just as happy
I was just trying to jump in before it got sidetracked.

I think I'm gonna try the NASTRA game, I also want to train this one to release on command, not on flush/shot. (Don't tell CC )

You just need to come up for some TBDC club trials and learn whose cooking to not eat before you get too ambitious! They throw together some nice roadtrips, too. I think Minnesota grouse and Louisiana woodcock in addition to the usual phez junkets.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:08 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:It just seems like most view NSTRA as second rate behind AF or NBHA etc. I'm just wondering if later on down the line if I were to have a few NSTRA Ch. (boy is THAT a stretch) and I were to breed them if anyone outside of NSTRA would find them to be second rate dogs. And it seems that NSTRA doesn't get brought up nearly as much as AF etc. Just like the BDC. I know it's comparing apples and oranges, but for instance on te best trial GSP's ever thread no NSTRA dog was brought up.

The reason, IMO, for this is because "stuff goes downhill". When people look for a pup, they will either look in their venue or one step up. NSTRA guys will look within NSTRA or go to AF dogs. Walking dog guys either stay within themselves or look to Shooting dogs or AA. Shooting Dog guys will either look for Shooting dog or AA. And AA guys will most likely stay withing themselves. Very rarely will you see an AA guy looking in the Walking dog line. Demands on these dogs are higher with the different venues. Not saying that a few of the dogs couldn't do it. But since it hasn't been proven, why would they risk time and money on a pup that you have no idea if the sire or dam could get the job done.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:11 am

kninebirddog wrote: also
If you train for that many people question what you are allowed to do after you shoot the bird, YES you can advance to your dog to release for the retrieve but FYI where ever you are when your dog releases for the retrieve you must stay there till the dog retrieves the bird to you so if the dog breaks before you get to it for the retrieve stop and don't move till you have your bird in hand.
Looking forward to hearing how your dogs does

I was actually about to PM you and ask about that!

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:16 am

Not trying to start a debate or argument, just curious as to how a venue that I'm considering getting into is viewed by the world of bird doggers. Cajun was right about the level of steadiness but IMO that is because NSTRA is a the closest venue to actual hunting, I wouldn't want my dog steady to shot out the field, steady to flush yes, but not shot. Thts just my dumb opinion on it. Feel free to go after it

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:19 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:Not trying to start a debate or argument, just curious as to how a venue that I'm considering getting into is viewed by the world of bird doggers. Cajun was right about the level of steadiness but IMO that is because NSTRA is a the closest venue to actual hunting, I wouldn't want my dog steady to shot out the field, steady to flush yes, but not shot. Thts just my dumb opinion on it. Feel free to go after it

I guess I don't know what more you want?.? Do what you want and who cares. If you want your dog a certain way and you want to get involved in competition. Then pick the venue that most resembles your style. Enough said.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:32 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:It just seems like most view NSTRA as second rate behind AF or NBHA etc. I'm just wondering if later on down the line if I were to have a few NSTRA Ch. (boy is THAT a stretch) and I were to breed them if anyone outside of NSTRA would find them to be second rate dogs. And it seems that NSTRA doesn't get brought up nearly as much as AF etc. Just like the BDC. I know it's comparing apples and oranges, but for instance on te best trial GSP's ever thread no NSTRA dog was brought up.

In the Pointing dog world there are some who speak of Crows Little Joe..he and his son Stephens Bright Copper are the 2 second most winning dogs in NSTRA both being 25x Champions I do not hear anyone bash them or if they do it isn't any where as close as you will see the brittany people Bash Nolans Last Bullet for being a 32x NSTRA champion..Pretty sad

Our foundations go back to the same dogs people get on me for saying that a dog who achieved his NSTRA titles before going on to AKC and achieving an FC AFC but his foundations again are the same many work off of

As for the GSP did Gambles Odyssey Fritz commonly refered to as the Alphabet dog as he has more titles then he does name

did he come up...If so see where he started off and what all he accomplished...All about training and the breeding and the dogs desire and most important after that what an Owner can afford to do..that is the biggest key to how far a dog if it has the capabilities can go
You can't become a champion in Many different venues and be the all time most titles achieved in one venue by trying to do it all takes devoting any an all weekends and winning to do anything So for NLB to be a 32 x NSTRA champion it took about 8 years of him running almost very weekend at any trial that Nolan could drive to and for the dog to win and win and win

For Rick and Brenda to get Fritz to being a NSTRA Ch Navdha Prize II MH DC AFC and I believe there is another title I am missing it took getting Fritz to different trials and help from friends to get Fritz there I am sorry Like me I just don't see Brenda or Rick for that fact parading around the Show Ring

I realize most look at NSTRA like the red headed step child

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:36 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:Not trying to start a debate or argument, just curious as to how a venue that I'm considering getting into is viewed by the world of bird doggers. Cajun was right about the level of steadiness but IMO that is because NSTRA is a the closest venue to actual hunting, I wouldn't want my dog steady to shot out the field, steady to flush yes, but not shot. Thts just my dumb opinion on it. Feel free to go after it

When I get to go wild bird hunting or any thing where I am going to shoot a bird I want my dog to go on the shot and come off if the bird continues to fly off ..Here in the deserts I want my dog to get to that bird before it can crawl off in a hole or cactus..this is preference has nothing to do with a dogs real ability to be trained to WSF

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:13 am

ElectricShorthairs wrote:Not trying to start a debate or argument, just curious as to how a venue that I'm considering getting into is viewed by the world of bird doggers. Cajun was right about the level of steadiness but IMO that is because NSTRA is a the closest venue to actual hunting, I wouldn't want my dog steady to shot out the field, steady to flush yes, but not shot. Thts just my dumb opinion on it. Feel free to go after it

I believe after this past February, folks look at NSTRA and the dogs and competitors a little differently. Ike Todd's da man!

A

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:24 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:Not trying to start a debate or argument, just curious as to how a venue that I'm considering getting into is viewed by the world of bird doggers. Cajun was right about the level of steadiness but IMO that is because NSTRA is a the closest venue to actual hunting, I wouldn't want my dog steady to shot out the field, steady to flush yes, but not shot. Thts just my dumb opinion on it. Feel free to go after it
I believe after this past February, folks look at NSTRA and the dogs and competitors a little differently. Ike Todd's da man!

A

That was a great win I bet he is still floating over that

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:45 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ElectricShorthairs wrote:Not trying to start a debate or argument, just curious as to how a venue that I'm considering getting into is viewed by the world of bird doggers. Cajun was right about the level of steadiness but IMO that is because NSTRA is a the closest venue to actual hunting, I wouldn't want my dog steady to shot out the field, steady to flush yes, but not shot. Thts just my dumb opinion on it. Feel free to go after it
I believe after this past February, folks look at NSTRA and the dogs and competitors a little differently. Ike Todd's da man!

A
That was a great win I bet he is still floating over that

Explanation? LoL I guess I'm behind.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:25 pm

@electricshorthairs http://www.amesplantation.org/field-tri ... winner.asp

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:02 am

kninebirddog wrote:here is the performance standings http://www.nstra.org/current_standings_New.htm this is only regular weekend trial points that are counted to Maximum pts for each trial won is 3 pts for first ,2pts for second and 1pt for third

There is a whole lot of IL dogs in the top 10. Four IL an two Northern IL. Tough region.

The reason behind the NSTRA and AF falling out is because NSTRA stopped wasting ALOT of money advertising in the field because they were'nt having any trouble filling their trials. Therefore AF said that if you don't continue to pay and advertise all your trials your Championships will not be reconized. That is the fact, it had little to nothing to do with shooting birds and everything to do with money. NSTRA saving money and AF losing money.

As far as NSTRA or any venue simulating real hunting, well that just is a joke. There is nothing like wild bird hunting.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:16 am

I'll throw in my two cents' worth.....

I come from a NAVHDA background, and tried my luck in NSTRA for the first time a few weekends ago, in Savage, MT. I had a great time at the trial, learned a bunch, met some fine folks, and saw some good dogs run. I've noticed on the forums that some do seem to look down their noses upon NSTRA , which is unfortunate, as we bird doggers should all be sticking together a little more than we do. NSTRA would seem to be somewhat unique in it's inclusion of the retrieve as a scored component, it doesn't require a horse, and from what I gather is less expensive than many other venues. Like any of the dog games, luck plays a large role, but a dog needs to have speed, some manners on birds, intelligence, and a good nose to consistently place. Style, obedience, and the fore-mentioned retrieve also play a part. The NSTRA scoring system impressed me as being well thought-out, as fair as possible, and consistent in promoting the traits that most of us look for in a canine hunting companion. There were thirty or more handlers at the Savage trial, and I didn't encounter one that was not an avid hunter.

It seems a shame that the various registries are apparently too insecure to give dogs credit for any title they receive, regardless if it comes from within their own ranks or not. At the end of the day, any event that provides us with an opportunity to get our dogs on birds, and meet like-minded people, sure beats sitting at home.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:21 am

ckirsch wrote:I'll throw in my two cents' worth.....

I come from a NAVHDA background, and tried my luck in NSTRA for the first time a few weekends ago, in Savage, MT. I had a great time at the trial, learned a bunch, met some fine folks, and saw some good dogs run. I've noticed on the forums that some do seem to look down their noses upon NSTRA , which is unfortunate, as we bird doggers should all be sticking together a little more than we do. NSTRA would seem to be somewhat unique in it's inclusion of the retrieve as a scored component, it doesn't require a horse, and from what I gather is less expensive than many other venues. Like any of the dog games, luck plays a large role, but a dog needs to have speed, some manners on birds, intelligence, and a good nose to consistently place. Style, obedience, and the fore-mentioned retrieve also play a part. The NSTRA scoring system impressed me as being well thought-out, as fair as possible, and consistent in promoting the traits that most of us look for in a canine hunting companion. There were thirty or more handlers at the Savage trial, and I didn't encounter one that was not an avid hunter.

It seems a shame that the various registries are apparently too insecure to give dogs credit for any title they receive, regardless if it comes from within their own ranks or not. At the end of the day, any event that provides us with an opportunity to get our dogs on birds, and meet like-minded people, sure beats sitting at home.

Texasdogtrainer · Post by **Texasdogtrainer** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:14 am

ABHA and NBHA also had to stop shooting birds. Both organization stopped and maintain being sanctioned by American Field.

kninebirddog wrote:they tried to blame it after a while on Insurance was the final excuse..which NSTRA has always had their own Insurance

What gets me is as much as we bird dog people trialers of Any kind really need to band together we let our Egos of what each little group thinks is the best and only way drive a wedge down and divided we will ALL lose but the Antis are trying to take advantage of it

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:17 am

Very true! I just wish it would show up on pedigrees!

ckirsch wrote:I'll throw in my two cents' worth.....

I come from a NAVHDA background, and tried my luck in NSTRA for the first time a few weekends ago, in Savage, MT. I had a great time at the trial, learned a bunch, met some fine folks, and saw some good dogs run. I've noticed on the forums that some do seem to look down their noses upon NSTRA , which is unfortunate, as we bird doggers should all be sticking together a little more than we do. NSTRA would seem to be somewhat unique in it's inclusion of the retrieve as a scored component, it doesn't require a horse, and from what I gather is less expensive than many other venues. Like any of the dog games, luck plays a large role, but a dog needs to have speed, some manners on birds, intelligence, and a good nose to consistently place. Style, obedience, and the fore-mentioned retrieve also play a part. The NSTRA scoring system impressed me as being well thought-out, as fair as possible, and consistent in promoting the traits that most of us look for in a canine hunting companion. There were thirty or more handlers at the Savage trial, and I didn't encounter one that was not an avid hunter.

It seems a shame that the various registries are apparently too insecure to give dogs credit for any title they receive, regardless if it comes from within their own ranks or not. At the end of the day, any event that provides us with an opportunity to get our dogs on birds, and meet like-minded people, sure beats sitting at home.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:20 am

Texasdogtrainer wrote:ABHA and NBHA also had to stop shooting birds. Both organization stopped and maintain being sanctioned by American Field.

kninebirddog wrote:they tried to blame it after a while on Insurance was the final excuse..which NSTRA has always had their own Insurance

What gets me is as much as we bird dog people trialers of Any kind really need to band together we let our Egos of what each little group thinks is the best and only way drive a wedge down and divided we will ALL lose but the Antis are trying to take advantage of it

Yep ..I saw the letter American Field wrote to NSTRA. Was a sad day for us bird hunters as Personally I feel that gave in to the Antis Agenda in the long run. Sure Glad AKC still has Retrieve stakes in the venues they sanction.

UKC may be the next line of defense for us Bird dog and Hound people

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:25 am

kninebirddog wrote:
Texasdogtrainer wrote:ABHA and NBHA also had to stop shooting birds. Both organization stopped and maintain being sanctioned by American Field.

kninebirddog wrote:they tried to blame it after a while on Insurance was the final excuse..which NSTRA has always had their own Insurance

What gets me is as much as we bird dog people trialers of Any kind really need to band together we let our Egos of what each little group thinks is the best and only way drive a wedge down and divided we will ALL lose but the Antis are trying to take advantage of it

Yep ..I saw the letter American Field wrote to NSTRA. Was a sad day for us bird hunters as Personally I feel that gave in to the Antis Agenda in the long run. Sure Glad AKC still has Retrieve stakes in the venues they sanction.

UKC may be the next line of defense for us Bird dog and Hound people

What does it matter anyway? NSTRA now has their own wins data base, so it really doesn't matter. I think it was a money issue and the fact of how a "champion" was named, more than killing birds.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:49 am

Texasdogtrainer wrote:ABHA and NBHA also had to stop shooting birds. Both organization stopped and maintain being sanctioned by American Field.

The NGSPA continues to shoot birds at some of their championships, and they are AF sanctioned. There are a few hundred local AF trials every year where birds are shot; they are the AF trials dual-sanctioned with the AKC.

ElectricShorthairs wrote:

I just wish it would show up on pedigrees!

NSTRA titles do show up on offical pedigree; those issued by NSTRA. With a couple of quirky exceptions, organizations only display titled they award on the pedigrees they produce. So, AF titles show up on AF (aka FDSB) pedigrees, AKC titles show up on AKC pedigrees, NAVHDA titles show up on NAVHDA pedigrees, etc, etc. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Formal pedigrees issued by the various registries are not nearly as important, or useful, as they were as little as 10 years ago. Both NSTRA and the AKC allow you to look up a dog, and his awarded titles, for free. NSTRA allows you to see his entire placement history; AKC charges a nominal fee.

There are pedigree management programs available for those who want to create and distribute their own custom pedigrees that display whatever titles they choose. There are online pedigree databases. And of course, there is Google.

FWIW,
Dave

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:51 am

What does it matter anyway? NSTRA now has their own wins data base, so it really doesn't matter.

Until I started reading this Website 6 months ago I had know idea what NSTRA was. I would have never thought of going to another website to look up titles. I think that the average hunter that does not trial, looks at only the AKC pedigree. So I believe it is a HUGE deal.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:57 am

nikegundog wrote:
What does it matter anyway? NSTRA now has their own wins data base, so it really doesn't matter.
Until I started reading this Website 6 months ago I had know idea what NSTRA was. I would have never thought of going to another website to look up titles. I think that the average hunter that does not trial, looks at only the AKC pedigree. So I believe it is a HUGE deal.

Same here.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:05 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
Texasdogtrainer wrote:ABHA and NBHA also had to stop shooting birds. Both organization stopped and maintain being sanctioned by American Field.
The NGSPA continues to shoot birds at some of their championships, and they are AF sanctioned. There are a few hundred local AF trials every year where birds are shot; they are the AF trials dual-sanctioned with the AKC.

ElectricShorthairs wrote:
I just wish it would show up on pedigrees!
NSTRA titles do show up on offical pedigree; those issued by NSTRA. With a couple of quirky exceptions, organizations only display titled they award on the pedigrees they produce. So, AF titles show up on AF (aka FDSB) pedigrees, AKC titles show up on AKC pedigrees, NAVHDA titles show up on NAVHDA pedigrees, etc, etc. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Formal pedigrees issued by the various registries are not nearly as important, or useful, as they were as little as 10 years ago. Both NSTRA and the AKC allow you to look up a dog, and his awarded titles, for free. NSTRA allows you to see his entire placement history; AKC charges a nominal fee.

There are pedigree management programs available for those who want to create and distribute their own custom pedigrees that display whatever titles they choose. There are online pedigree databases. And of course, there is Google.

FWIW,
Dave

Unfortunately the certs that they send out from NSTRA do not show titles Or at least when they first started they didn't as I have a few...But from anyone I sell pups to none are interested in triple registering their pups and Mostly do the AKC and or the FDSB
also I don't worry about it as I have a pedigree program where I can make a 5 generation Pedigree for their pup and include all titles from all venues

At least NSTRA does offer a person to find dogs they are interested in online and trial activity where the said dogs have placed for free

Another thing with the Cyber Info highway any dogs that is doing something that is note worthy they are posted about and word of mouth gets a round so that helps a lot about what a dog offers in a pedigree

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:10 pm

ElectricShorthairs wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
What does it matter anyway? NSTRA now has their own wins data base, so it really doesn't matter.
Until I started reading this Website 6 months ago I had know idea what NSTRA was. I would have never thought of going to another website to look up titles. I think that the average hunter that does not trial, looks at only the AKC pedigree. So I believe it is a HUGE deal.
Same here.

Well, I guess its a good thing you found this website. And just to prove you wouldn't have found them anyway. NSTRA wasnt running with AKC anyway. They were with the AF.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:15 pm

nikegundog wrote:
What does it matter anyway? NSTRA now has their own wins data base, so it really doesn't matter.
Until I started reading this Website 6 months ago I had know idea what NSTRA was. I would have never thought of going to another website to look up titles. I think that the average hunter that does not trial, looks at only the AKC pedigree. So I believe it is a HUGE deal.

The "average hunter who does not trial" is going to look at the pedigrees and information provided on web forums, personal websites, dog for sale ads, etc. That content is usually generated by those who want to promote a dog and his accomplishments; all titles regardless of issuing organization will be displayed. Very, very few "average hunters who do not trial" are going to independently go purchase an AKC pedigree to check the accomplishments of a particular dog.

For both good and bad, the registry and organization of sporting dog events in the US is somewhat unconsolidated. Looking up an AKC pedigree or looking for AKC titles if one is interested in an English Pointer or English Setter is usually a waste of time, as the AKC is not the primary registry for those breeds. There are quirks in this sport, just like every other, particularly those that have not become fully commercialized. While this may result in a bit of confusion for the newbie, the resulting lack of bureaucracy and diverse number and styles of birddog organizations is, at least IMO, a good thing.

kninebirddog wrote:Unfortunately the certs that they send out from NSTRA do not show titles..

So we're having a discussion about why NSTRA titles don't show up on other organizations' pedigrees when they don't show up on their own?

FWIW,
Dave

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:32 pm

ElectricShorthairs wrote:Why would the AF want them to stop shooting birds etc? What does that have to do with it?

Yeah, Heaven forbid you would actually mimic or simulate an actual hunting situation... :roll:

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:41 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
What does it matter anyway? NSTRA now has their own wins data base, so it really doesn't matter.
Until I started reading this Website 6 months ago I had know idea what NSTRA was. I would have never thought of going to another website to look up titles. I think that the average hunter that does not trial, looks at only the AKC pedigree. So I believe it is a HUGE deal.
The "average hunter who does not trial" is going to look at the pedigrees and information provided on web forums, personal websites, dog for sale ads, etc. That content is usually generated by those who want to promote a dog and his accomplishments; all titles regardless of issuing organization will be displayed. Very, very few "average hunters who do not trial" are going to independently go purchase an AKC pedigree to check the accomplishments of a particular dog.

For both good and bad, the registry and organization of sporting dog events in the US is somewhat unconsolidated. Looking up an AKC pedigree or looking for AKC titles if one is interested in an English Pointer or English Setter is usually a waste of time, as the AKC is not the primary registry for those breeds. There are quirks in this sport, just like every other, particularly those that have not become fully commercialized. While this may result in a bit of confusion for the newbie, the resulting lack of bureaucracy and diverse number and styles of birddog organizations is, at least IMO, a good thing.

kninebirddog wrote:Unfortunately the certs that they send out from NSTRA do not show titles..
So we're having a discussion about why NSTRA titles don't show up on other organizations' pedigrees when they don't show up on their own?

FWIW,
Dave

:roll: Yep

But the registration papers on gets from FDSB doesn't show titles either you have to get a pedigree to show that

NSTRA has a cert/Ped combo
Sorry about pic but this is a NSTRA Cert of Reg/Ped