Scout and hamdler

Hotchkiss · Post by **Hotchkiss** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:48 pm

What exactly does a scout do to help the handler? Think I know, but probably only 15% of what one actually does.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:44 am

The scout is an extra set of eyes for the handler when they are riding in the gallery or out to one side or the other where the handler's view might be limited.

The scout, by riding out to the side the dog is on, can increase the visual range of the handler to that side and by their presence, can tend to keep the dog out on an edge.

The scout can watch were the bird(s) flew, so that after a find, you don't release the dog right where a bird is running around.

The scout can watch the other scout to make sure nothing unsportsmanlike occurs out of sight of the judges.

The scout can go round up an errant dog and if it is not listening, can ride it down, give it a quick obedience lesson(out of sight and earshot of the judges and gallery) and return the dog to the handler.

The scout can bring a dog around, off course, and shoot the dog either back toward the handler from the front(without being observed doing so, of course) or at a place where the dog will join back up with the handler from a lateral postion.

A scout can find a dog on point and if it is not pointing with high style, can check to see if birds are present and can reposition the dog and style it up(all of course without being observed) before re-mounting and going out and calling point.

If the scout finds their dog on point to the front they can do all of the above and then fade into the scenery as the field trial party approaches.

These are just some of the things I can think of offhand.

RayG

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:10 am

As was posted in another thread, a trial is really a performance for the judges. The handler more or less rides the course with the judge the scout is not limited to the course or the path. They can ride out parallel and or behind the judges. (They aren't supposed to be in front, unless of course you have conveniently placed screens like mountains) with this freedom they help pretty much in the manner that Ray described. Now...he left out some important detail, the trial circuit is long and arduous. If you selectively choose a scout of the opposite sex, the benefits increase exponentially.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:00 am

Ray did a very good with scout job description . I could add two things.
1. If he is bringing dog to the front and time permits he could take him hunting. Most often this would be a hour stake.
2. Keep your mouth shut. Do not feel you have a need to tell everybody what a wonderful job and all the things you did to make the dog look good.

Hotchkiss · Post by **Hotchkiss** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:24 pm

Let me ask the obvious question - are the things Ray mentioned as taking place out of the site of the judges legal?????

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:31 pm

The judges know they go on. Some encourage it, some make pretend they're not happening, others try and prevent a scout from doing anything constructive...just depends on the judge and often times the venue. AF judges seem to turn a blind eye to scouts more than AKC judges, and especially new AKC judges in my experience.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:50 pm

The judges know they go on. Some encourage it, some make pretend they're not happening, others try and prevent a scout from doing anything constructive...just depends on the judge and often times the venue. AF judges seem to turn a blind eye to scouts more than AKC judges, and especially new AKC judges in my experience.

I won't get off on this...I'm going to make Ezzy happy and remain passive and an acceptable forum member....but....IF this goes on, how do these folks respect themselves. Sounds to me like dogs are being intimidated to the expected performance by a second handler...and y'all still say that this is the kind of dog for the weekend warrior??? WOW!!!....I put this post in my archives. Gotta get me a scout for my next UT....gonna station someone in the woods along that 350yd fox retrieve for my next VGP....a scout on the other side of the slough for the duck search....yeah...make for a real meaningful result.

I hope we're being put on....if folks pulled anything near this in NAVHDA or the JGHV, they'd be thrown off the grounds...could lose your membership...y'ould think the honest folk would clean house of this kind of stuff.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:57 pm

Ya and I can't believe that athletes use steroids!!! If you don't think cheating goes on in EVERY sport your crazy!! Let people play and they will find a way to cheat!!!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:15 pm

Ya and I can't believe that athletes use steroids!!! If you don't think cheating goes on in EVERY sport your crazy!! Let people play and they will find a way to cheat!!!

True...as always, first you have to flush out the cheaters to find out what dogs are real.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:20 pm

JKP wrote:
I hope we're being put on....if folks pulled anything near this in NAVHDA or the JGHV, they'd be thrown off the grounds...could lose your membership...y'ould think the honest folk would clean house of this kind of stuff.

Jon,

Considering you don't trial, I'm not sure why you feel your post adds any value to the thread.

Comparing field trialing to JGHV/NAVHDA isn't comparing apples to oranges, its comparing apples to pipe wrenches; it's a waste of your and our time.

The beauty of field trialing is that a dog isn't judged on 1 or 2 or 3 performances, but on dozens upon dozens of performances across a wide piece of the country across many years time. It is a marathon, not a sprint, and the dog is judged on his complete body of work. As a result, the law of averages tends to weed out the weak and incapable dogs; the actions and abilities of the handler and scout over the long term are pretty irrelevant.

The other great thing about this game, and unlike all others, is that anyone can ride any brace, sit literally feet away from the judges and see exactly what they see, or hang back in the gallery and see everything unfold from a different point of view. Trials are open to the public, locations and directions are widely disseminated, one doesn't need to be a member of any club to participate or watch. Results are openly discussed on this and many other boards; judging decisions are openly reviewed. Brace by brace recaps are usually available; often written by the judges themselves.

I hate to break it to you, but there's holding by offensive linemen on every snap and runners on 2nd try to steal signs as often as they can. It's part of the fabric of the game.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:26 pm

I agree with you Dave. Those are great analogies with holding and stealing signs. Its part of the game.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:38 pm

RayG, I applaud the honesty, especially when you knew the insults would begin. You could have chosen to keep your mouth shut and sugar coat the answer, instead you gave a real answer to the OP thank you.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:53 pm

Heh...I'm giving you a hard time but what has been described is a system of manipulation...ie...the scout serves to keep the dog out on the edge....can reprimand the dog, etc. Do you ever wonder what dog actually finished honest??

Considering you don't trial, I'm not sure why you feel your post adds any value to the thread.

Sounds like you need to hear an outside point of view.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:55 pm

Sounds like you need to hear an outside point of view.

No more than the VDD wants to hear an outside point of view.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:21 pm

JKP wrote:Heh...I'm giving you a hard time but what has been described is a system of manipulation...ie...the scout serves to keep the dog out on the edge....can reprimand the dog, etc. Do you ever wonder what dog actually finished honest??

Considering you don't trial, I'm not sure why you feel your post adds any value to the thread.
Sounds like you need to hear an outside point of view.

Given the fact that I was involved with NAVHDA and AKC hunt tests for well over 5 years before I ran my first trial, have chaired NAVHDA tests, training days, have been to NADKC tests, NSTRA trials, etc I'm pretty confident my views are pretty well-rounded and objective. Search my post history and you'll see dozens of posts where I question the status quo in every format.

Truthseeker · Post by **Truthseeker** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:24 pm

JKP, i dont get it? you dont trial, yet you make comments on every trial thread, usually thinnly veiled insults. if you are that obsessed with it, get some dogs that can do it and give it a try. I have no interest in VDD dogs so i dont read the threads or comment on them. why the obsession?

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:51 pm

Not an obsession....I guess I'm surprised that those dedicated to the sport don't comment...you're not?? I understand that its a game and that very good dogs play the game...but it would appear its about what you can get away with....that's not an option for me....I don't have someone out of sight to help me.

I'd really like to ask questions on the whole post but it would be seen as an attack. So how long do you let the newbies play before you let them in on the unwritten rules??

What happens if it is determined that a scout has overstepped his bounds? and does it ever happen?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:05 pm

I think some things are just difficult to explain. It is a judged event and not scored that moves fairly quickly over a lot of geography. Even with throw down birds the condition are not staged nearly as well as in a testing model. Somebody said, and I think it was you JKP, that the world is filled with shades of gray. Trials are no different than that. There are written rules that are largely subject to the judges discretion in any trial, and while the subjectiveness of this next statement makes it controversial, the rules are guidelines to make an imperfect field fair and broad enough that they are hopeful not to interfere with the performance of a dog.

I cannot tell you the number of times I have ridden a gallery (wait I probably could I have only done this two years) and heard fellow competitors watching a performance hopeful that a scout would get a dog that was laying it down back out front and in contention, the performance was just noticeably that good. I was third in an AF trial a few weeks back with a Britt running an hour stake against all pointers and setters. Going into the last brace I knew I was either 1 or 2nd, if I had been truly objective I bet I would have known it was second. The last dog was awesome running a buy (no bracemate) and the guy handled the dog to perfection, scout helped with some moves but trust me we were all watching the dog. We lost him at time. We set with the judges and with 4 minutes of contention left I pointed out the dog running a ridge two valley away, the handler fetched him up and he won the trial because he deserved it.

It is a show, and it takes consistency in the imperfect format and time to know who is the best. The rules are gray and we will all moan about them some time, but so far it appears to me that if you look past a single day, the best always end up being titled as such.

Truthseeker · Post by **Truthseeker** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:08 pm

go to a trial and find out for yourself, better yet, enter one and see how you measure up. Its not rocket surgery

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:18 pm

Based on what I just read, since a lot of this is being done out-of-site, merely attending a trial wouldn't necessarily help.

terrylndrs · Post by **terrylndrs** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:29 pm

From what I've seen. Anything is fair and legal as long as the judge doesn't see it

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:46 pm

terrylndrs wrote:From what I've seen. Anything is fair and legal as long as the judge doesn't see it

You're right. Out of sight out of mind. Can't judge what you can't see or know about. These things happen all the time and sometimes it doesn't happen at all. I just don't get how anyone can say anything about something they don't have a clue about. some of things people say about trials is just stupid, but they know everything about them.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:11 pm

All those things Ray mentioned are possibilities. However they are not everyday reality in any of the trials I have competed in or spectated at. I ran an AF Shooting Dog one time where the judge prefaced the trail with "This is a Shooting Dog stake. If you send your scout you are telling me your dog won't handle." Yes, they are possible. Yes some folks play that way. But no more so than the holding on the line in football. No more so than the hooking in hockey. In the end, real talent wins.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:37 pm

Truthseeker wrote:go to a trial and find out for yourself, better yet, enter one and see how you measure up. Its not rocket surgery

Might not even be brain science.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:42 pm

Guys -

I knew this would stir the pot some and generate some controversy, but isn't that how we all keep interested and keep learning?

A good scout can help a lot, but in the end...the dog's gotta do it in front of the judges. Besides, an experienced judge knows just what a scout can do and where they can do it, so they are waiting for it. For example, if you don't think most championship level judges don't know a game of pitch and catch when they see it, you are mistaken.

It is a fact that the scout has to be an accomplished rider and their mount has to be fearless, strong and FAST. The good scout has to know the course intimately and the best are almost able to think like a dog.

When all is said and done however, scouting is indeed one of those endeavors where it helps to have just a little larceny in your soul.

RayG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:02 pm

Chukar12 wrote:If you selectively choose a scout of the opposite sex, the benefits increase exponentially.

This didn't even draw a comment? Well it struck me funny!

I need a bigger running dog so I can get a scout!

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:08 pm

Coop I had a good laugh at that, then to add to it Ruth made another comment on another thread at the same time that should of been combined with it. I kinda was thinking Chucker might be the Tiger Woods of the trial circuit.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:39 pm

ACooper wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:If you selectively choose a scout of the opposite sex, the benefits increase exponentially.
This didn't even draw a comment? Well it struck me funny!

I need a bigger running dog so I can get a scout!

Just so you know, the judges are allowed to designate a handler for the dog when both the scout and handler go missing. :roll:

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:56 pm

Chukar didn't have any busted Windows or dents in his vehicle when I seen him.....

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:59 pm

When all is said and done however, scouting is indeed one of those endeavors where it helps to have just a little larceny in your soul.

Now that's the truest statement yet.

I can't say I agree with everything that I've seen scouts do, but ya know - it's part of the game, ya ain't gonna get rid of it, so no use worrying too much about it.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:50 pm

While some of the abuses attributed to scouts does go on, and I have done more than a few of them, it is very rare that those stunts are needed for the winning dogs.

When a dog is winning, the scout mostly just holds the handler's horse, sometimes sweeping up behind and to the sides to find the dog on point if ridden by.

In American Field open all-age, there is no written rules for the scout's role, it is up to the judges, so I resent the claim it is cheating. AFTCA has some written guidelines that are mostly followed. The AKC rules were written by people that had no idea about true field trials.

More simply put the scouts job is to find the dog on point, or see he makes it to the front.

Neil

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:37 pm

I don't understand why people get all poppy about scouts. A good scout scouting a good dog always works harder than the handler. Eyes, ears and hands. I was told once if you don't come back with a lathered horse after you scout a good dog....ya aint doin it right.

I tell scouts when I judge to do your job - I know what's cheatin and what's not. If I see it you're done. If I don't there's nothing I can do about it.

But then again, I see some pretty darned good scouts work all of the time.....

Justin

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:17 am

A good scout scouting a good dog always works harder than the handler

From what was posted, its only natural to ask....who is influencing the dog? is the handler handling? Does the scouts name go on the trophy too??

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:11 am

slistoe wrote:All those things Ray mentioned are possibilities. However they are not everyday reality in any of the trials I have competed in or spectated at. I ran an AF Shooting Dog one time where the judge prefaced the trail with "This is a Shooting Dog stake. If you send your scout you are telling me your dog won't handle." Yes, they are possible. Yes some folks play that way. But no more so than the holding on the line in football. No more so than the hooking in hockey. In the end, real talent wins.

A scout can and should be sent for more reasons other than a dog won't handle. If a dog is truely horseback material they wont be in sight the whole brace. If the dogs goes on point out on a limb find and your scout is not out there looking you will ride off and leave them. The problem I have with a judge that says stay in the gallery until the dog has been gone for a while is that you could be riding a long way backwards to go find the dog on point. Now you are way behind trying to catch the front because the other handler is moving on the whole time you are going backwards to the find.

As for the point that some of the other games not needing scouts.....you don't need a scout when your game is turning a dog loose in a 10-20 acre bird field. Any average dog can point birds in a heavily seeded small bird field.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:17 am

The first and most important duty of the scout is to be the eyes and ears of the handler where the handler cannot possibly be.

Here is a classic example...If the handler is following the field trial course and the dog is off to the right a hundred or two hundred yards away, on the opposite side of a hedgerrow(because that is the way the wind is blowing)... there is absolutely no way the handler is going to see their dog if it stops and points on the onther side of a twenty foot thick hedgerow. By the time the handler figures out the dog ain't out to the front, they are usually well out in front of the dog and need to go back and check.

That never looks good and if the dog is actually to the front, you may well end up with a lost dog because you chose to go back and check. Bad scene all the way around.

However, if the scout is riding that right edge on the other side of the hedge but roughly parallel(or even hanging back a ways to get a better field of view)to the field trial party, spotting the standing dog and calling point should be routine. This is all in order and a smart as well as totally proper use of a scout. Eyes and ears of the handler where the handler cannot be.

This allows the dog the freedom to use a much more expansive ground patterna nd application and the handler the assurance that the dog is still where it should be.

RayG

SHNOOL · Post by **SHNOOL** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:24 am

Ok I think Ray is being improperly blasted here. Honestly I am not sure he is saying what a scout SHOULD do, but rather what some do.

1. The scout is an extra set of eyes for the handler when they are riding in the gallery or out to one side or the other where the handler's view might be limited.
2. The scout, by riding out to the side the dog is on, can increase the visual range of the handler to that side and by their presence, can tend to keep the dog out on an edge.
3. The scout can watch were the bird(s) flew, so that after a find, you don't release the dog right where a bird is running around.
4. The scout can watch the other scout to make sure nothing unsportsmanlike occurs out of sight of the judges.
5. The scout can go round up an errant dog and if it is not listening, can ride it down, give it a quick obedience lesson(out of sight and earshot of the judges and gallery) and return the dog to the handler.
6. The scout can bring a dog around, off course, and shoot the dog either back toward the handler from the front(without being observed doing so, of course) or at a place where the dog will join back up with the handler from a lateral postion.
7. A scout can find a dog on point and if it is not pointing with high style, can check to see if birds are present and can reposition the dog and style it up(all of course without being observed) before re-mounting and going out and calling point.
If the scout finds their dog on point to the front they can do all of the above and then fade into the scenery as the field trial party approaches.
These are just some of the things I can think of offhand.
RayG

1. is extremely helpful - words of "Dog up front," or "Get on him" help the handler either locate their dog, or help the handler grab a dog at a crucial junction.
2. is mostly same as 1, however, if a dog isn't staying on an edge, it should not be a scout that forces that.
3. Is crucial, get the dog away from the relocated bird, its pointless to repoint the same bird, it wastes everyone's time (and doesn't mimic a real hunt)
4. Ok, like styling up a dog maybe?
5. I am sure it happens, but that isn't what I am doing scouting. Its different if we are having trial issues, that cannot be fixed at training, but it isn't going to happen then put the dog back on course... we'd be picking up, and I would hope others would be to.
6. I admit I have done this (alot). Honestly this happens mostly when the dogs run bigger than the handler/gallery rides.
7. God I hope doesn't happen a lot. Finding the dog on point when the gallery passed it is kinda cool, restyling them, ugh.

You missed a huge Scouting role though, and that is, helping critique the performance good, or bad to help make things more fluid for the next run. The communications should happen continually, before, during, and after the run to help improve the overall performance of the dog.

Chukar12 wrote:If you selectively choose a scout of the opposite sex, the benefits increase exponentially.

Done that, and I like your thinking.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:29 am

JKP wrote:
A good scout scouting a good dog always works harder than the handler
From what was posted, its only natural to ask....who is influencing the dog? is the handler handling? Does the scouts name go on the trophy too??

Actually, the scout usually gets a TON of credit. With THEE NATIONAL at Ames, you should see the gifts the scout gets from the winning dog. Usually at pointer trial the scout earns 15%+ of the winning dogs earnings.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:23 pm

Horses to keep up with the dogs,scouts who do things behind the judges back,GPS to locate dogs -

all I see is a sport that encourages self hunting.

I love the line - "you don't understand and you don't want to understand"

How much rationalization and denial is the average foot hunter supposed to put up with?

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:41 pm

adogslife wrote:Horses to keep up with the dogs,scouts who do things behind the judges back,GPS to locate dogs -

all I see is a sport that encourages self hunting.

I love the line - "you don't understand and you don't want to understand"

How much rationalization and denial is the average foot hunter supposed to put up with?

What does this thread have to do with the average foot hunter?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:48 pm

How much rationalization and denial is the average foot hunter supposed to put up with?

Is the purpose of a field trial to serve the foot hunter? If I am hunting my AA dog from horseback I ride where I darned well please rather than following the rules of a game. People who interject opinion with no first hand knowledge of things to the point of psychological diagnosis, subject themselves to recipricol comments about their intellect, ignorance and self-esteem, and it usually stings a bit more than the intial strike as it is far more accurate.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:18 pm

adogslife wrote:{
all I see is a sport that encourages self hunting.

This statement is obviously made out of ignorance. Show me a run off, self hunting dog in the field trial game and I will show you one that doesn't consistently win. The dog must handle as much or more than a foot hunting dog because their range is much bigger. A dog has to have the intelligence to know where the front is without seeing the handler.

I find it intresting that the same people that talk bad about field trial dogs are the same ones on here bragging of a pup they got from field trial champion "x" or are selling pups from those out of control run offs. Go to a trial and watch and learn then have an opinion from a point of experiene rather than wild speculation.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:26 pm

adogslife wrote:Horses to keep up with the dogs,scouts who do things behind the judges back,GPS to locate dogs -

all I see is a sport that encourages self hunting.

I love the line - "you don't understand and you don't want to understand"

How much rationalization and denial is the average foot hunter supposed to put up with?

Do you hunt with an E-collar? OHHHHH! There is your scout. Thats your way to say "get your "bleep" over here".

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:30 pm

adogslife wrote:Horses to keep up with the dogs,scouts who do things behind the judges back,GPS to locate dogs -

all I see is a sport that encourages self hunting.

I love the line - "you don't understand and you don't want to understand"

How much rationalization and denial is the average foot hunter supposed to put up with?

If you get caught using a GPS to locate a dog without judges permission, you not only get kicked out of the stake, but AKC and AF if either one is the format. It's been done and results are not what we look foward to.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:21 pm

delete

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:23 pm

From what you've posted, its only natural to ask....how intelligent are you? why do you ask as you don't care to learn?

We are all learning from this discussion...mostly that y'all are kidding yourself about how honest some of these dogs (and people) are....that a dog can be/will be handled by the scout....corrected....styled.....kept from leaving the course....we all have learned a lot about trials and trial dogs. All this while I though this was an honest sport. Never heard anyone say before that a dog is "dual handled" at trials but that is what has been described. I don't doubt that there are many very good, honest dogs....but I now understand why I see so many dogs from FT lines that are a real challenge for owners. I also know now that it's necessary to ask how a dog finished or if there was suspected double handling during a dog's career....and if the dog is really a 500 yd dog or if its the scout that keeps him out on the edge...and many other questions. I appreciate your passion for the sport but I think y'all have the rose colored glasses on. There's a whole lot that's been learned here....respect it for what it is but know the questions to ask....and for the lurkers and newbies I'm sure this has been valuable. We have heard many casual mentions of dogs being out of sight, having to be located by the scout, unseen by the judges. "two valleys over"....scout steering the dog back on the course.....this doesn't seem to be the description in the "mission" statement at Ames, for example where dogs should "be seen to be evaluated".
I'd be interested to know how long during a 1 hour stake a dog can be gone from view but still win/place. If the dog is unobserved for 50 minutes but is found twice on point to the front....does that work? Take away the scout and require the dogs to hunt to the terrain and remain in view such that the handler could quickly get to the bird and gun it, and this would interest me. Every time a dog is influenced by one of the "handlers", its not the dog that's doing it...can't see how you can see it any other way. If that's the case, the dog is not maintaining contact....the dog is not working for the handler. Dog didn't go to the edge....the scout gave the dog the confidence to go/stay out there....the dog didn't come back to the front/on the course...the scout corrected the dog....the dog's tail and head weren't held high....the scout corrected it out of sight of the judges. Sort of like the surgical wonder babe at the bar that says she's lookin "for a real man".

Sure I'm havin fun with this...but its interesting to me that not one of the died in the wool FT'ers thinks anything is wrong with this...sounds to me like winning at any cost is the rule of the road....and perception is more important than fact.

How much rationalization and denial is the average foot hunter supposed to put up with?

Guess I'm not the only one that noticed.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:24 pm

I'd be interested to know how long during a 1 hour stake a dog can be gone from view but still win/place. If the dog is unobserved for 50 minutes but is found twice on point to the front....does that work?

Are you interested enough to go read the rules or go observe? You know, I have questions about NAVHDA work, and opinions on the dogs. Know what they are?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:58 pm

How can you spout rules when a second handler can fix things and judges turn a blind eye?
And the iceing on the cake is : it's acceptable.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:13 pm

Because I read them and take the time to understand their practical application before offering an opinion or a suggestion on them. It has been remarkably successful and peaceful on a number of fronts.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:47 pm

JKP have you ever been to a FT?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:04 pm

How can you spout rules when a second handler can fix things and judges turn a blind eye?
And the iceing on the cake is : it's acceptable.

don't do alot of reading do you?