Is letting a pup chase and catch birds a must?

[GUNDOGS]

i was just curious why it is so recommended for bird intro to allow a pup to chase and catch the bird?..i have heard this method recommended by the best of the best so im not questioning the knowledge of VERY experienced trainers this is only my 4th bird dog pup so i am NOT in anyway saying what these pro's are doing is wrong so please dont get that from my post cause it is NOT what my post is about, i have trained with and watched others who like my hubby and i dont intro birds this way(chase, catch, play) i just would like to see if folks really feel having the pup chase and catch birds is a must?..my hubby and i trained with a guy in michigan about 8 years ago that told us something i thought made sense and that is '"why allow your pup to do something you will have to break them of later"..which i feel makes sense, yet i see folks give a pup a bird all the time..i understand its for bringing out desire ect but dont pups have enough desire to find birds already?..my pup is 4 months old and is (most of the time) steady on the flush and has been shot over and retrieves (most of the time) so i feel she is where she needs to be and doing well without having been allowed to chase and catch birds so im really curious as to why it is so recommended..thanks...ruth

[Karen]

We let them chase, get a good distance away, and fire a blank pistol. We make sure to use good flying birds so they don't catch them.

[slistoe]

I know of one pro who is quite successful that says he will not even start training with a new dog in the field unless they will eat a bird. I guess it depends on what you consider to be "enough" motivation by the dog for the bird.
I think it is a definite plus for the after shot work to build the dogs desire to actually have the bird in the mouth, as opposed to simply finding it.

[dlfl]

Some trainers say why start something you will have to break a dog from doing. It depends on the trainer as to how to start a dog. May be no right or wrong way. :roll:

[V-John]

I want my pups to know that they have complete power over that bird. I want them to know what they feel like, taste like, and to feel that birds are the greatest thing in the world. I want NO question in that pup's mind that birds are the best thing ever.

[cmc274]

Ruth,

I am not sure if you are questioning the chasing and the catching or just the catching portion. I cannot offer enough experience for a meaningful reply, however I can relay some stuff that I have read. I think the theory is that you only allow your dog to catch a bird or two when they are young to develop the predator / prey relationship (Bill Gibbons explanation below from an interview he did). After that, you want good flying birds they can chase and never catch. Or when they can catch good flying birds, you introduce the CC.

Bill Gibbons Magic Man Interview
One of the biggest things, I feel, when you're starting out a young puppy, is to let him catch a bird, He needs to know he's got power over that bird. That bird isn't going to hurt him. Now there's some dogs that are so birdy and so bold that it doesn't matter, but there's some of them that will come up to a bird and stand there trying to decide. "Now, I know I like the smell of this thing, but is it going to get me or what?" Well, once he finally chases that bird down and catches him, then he knows, "I like the smell of this thing and I can get him."

Once he does that, then he starts to come along. I've had dogs that would go a month and a half sometimes and then catch that bird. And from then on that dog just came on. It wasn't that he didn't like birds, he just had been scared.

[kninebirddog]

When puppies are very young by putting a bird out fr them to play bump and chase you are helping awake what is inside that pup they can chase it builds desire and drive...letting them catch it builds more desire and the retrieve

it is kinda like giving a young child crayons and a coloring book allowing them to do what they want crossing the lines go all over the page ..if you go getting on them for crossing the lines when they first start out they will quickly not want to color anymore but help them see and figure out that staying in the lines make a better picture and that is a good thing you then bring out the best in that kid

[larry]

I feel it depends on the dog. If he lacks prey drive I would let him catch a few birds. I let my pups chase good flying birds, thats when I intoduce gun shots, but prefer they do not catch. It isn't the end of the world if they happen to catch a few.

[Cajun Casey]

We let them chase, get a good distance away, and fire a blank pistol. We make sure to use good flying birds so they don't catch them.

Ditto for gunbreaking. We do not ever let them catch birds on purpose. Playing with or mauling them is out of the question.

[V-John]

When puppies are very young by putting a bird out fr them to play bump and chase you are helping awake what is inside that pup they can chase it builds desire and drive...letting them catch it builds more desire and the retrieve

it is kinda like giving a young child crayons and a coloring book allowing them to do what they want crossing the lines go all over the page ..if you go getting on them for crossing the lines when they first start out they will quickly not want to color anymore but help them see and figure out that staying in the lines make a better picture and that is a good thing you then bring out the best in that kid

Totally agree. Good analogy Ma'am!

[Prairie Hunter]

I will usually introduce a young pup (8 – 10 weeks) to quail in a small cage, just for 30 – 60 seconds or so to see how they react to it, and not long enough for them to get bored. Some bold pups will go right after the bird, some will be cautious. But, this can help trigger the prey drive, and also give them the scent of game birds. This works to my advantage later when I start exposing them to birds in the field. If I have a very bold, aggressive pup, there is no reason to let them chase. They are going to be aggressive on birds anyway, and it may create a problem I have to fix later. If the pup is luke-warm on birds, I will let them chase some, and I might let them actually have a wing-clipped quail, but I usually tease them with the bird and give it to them rather than let them chase it down and catch it. Bottom line, each pup is different, and you have to be able to evaluate how much motivation a particular pup needs to get them excited about birds.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

GunDogs,
Ruth there are many different ways to train, as a matter of fact Hickox has a good article about how he and many other trainers start young dogs, in the March/April SSM.
He does a good job of explaining it in the article, Guaranteeing the Outcome. There is a sequence to all this that we use and it works, if your dog has the correct genetics,
the use of training birds builds boldness in a young dog. Further many of the old time German trainers believe a young dog should always be started in this manner.
RGD/Dave

[birddog1968]

I sometimes even go so far as to feed the pup bird parts (legs and heads) if they've done a good job ending the day on the highest note possible....haven't yet seen it have anything but a very positive effect.

[snips]

There are limitations to all things, birds is one of them...Using common sense is utmost...I do not feel it is bad for a pup to chase and catch a few birds. But overdoing is where you might get in trouble. I allow my young dogs (up to about 7 mo) the world. I take them on puppy walks and let them find, point, and chase birds. Maybe once every week or 2...After about 7 mo a pup gained strength and confidence and that is when I pull them off birds if I see the level of confidence I want...Pup will get to run then off of birds until time to steady them. Of course my pups have access to birds here from birth on...Pups that come in for Puppy camp get a month of birds at around 7 months old then I think they really do not need birds after that til trained. Wild birds are different, but I do not have them here....

[birddogger]

Ruth, I may not have the knowledge of some others but when you ask "is it a must?", my simple answer would be no, as long as the prey drive is there.

Charlie

[Ron R]

I'm going to have to dis-agree with ever letting a pup catch or eat birds. It makes no sense to me and if I feel that I have to build drive in a dog I will not own it. I'm sorry but I don't see any simularities with pups catching and eating birds and kids coloring. Here's another analogy that makes more sense to me, I don't let pups catch and or eat birds and I don't let kids play in the street. Reason being, both activities can get you hurt(spanked) and possibly killed (run over or put down). I'm not saying anyone is wrong I'm just saying that I definately don't agree .

[snips]

I do not allow bird eating either.

[birddog1968]

Allowing a 12 week old to rough up a bird or feeding a 6 month old a quail leg is akin to letting kids play in the street

I'd say your analogy is slightly flawed too Ron

But as you eluded too, To each their own.

[Ron R]

I'd say your analogy is slightly flawed too Ron

For sure...I just went the other way .

[Trekmoor]

I allow my pups to chase the birds they've found but these are all wild birds. The pup has no chance of ever catching any. I would be very unhappy if one of my pups ever caught and killed a bird. Since I've done O.K. in trials with these dogs , Brittanies and G.S.P.'s , I don't think I'm going too far wrong.

Bill T.

[nitrex]

I'll let a 8 week old pup "catch" the first few birds. I introduce a pup to a locked wing first, then a clipped wing, then on to a flushed bird. I don't want to take any chance that a young pup may be frightened by an aggressive flush on the first few bird contacts. I don't let them "catch" any birds after those initial few birds as we want to encourage the pointing instinct.

Nitrex

[birddogger]

I do my best to keep my pups from catching birds and I would never, knowingly, let them eat one. I am not saying it is right or wrong, just what works best for me.

Charlie

[slistoe]

Interesting story on the chasing wild birds. This was the fourth bird dog I had trained, third of my own and was just getting into some of the "techno" aspects of training. After a few wrecks with carded and hosed pigeons I invested in some manual launchers and had a couple of wrecks with those too. I was talking with an old time dog man who owned a summer cabin in some training grounds where he invited me down. His idea was that we would get my dog running some wild birds because they would be impossible to catch and she would soon unlearn the goofs I had made with the pigeon nonsense. As I was heading there I was a mile from his place when I came across a covey of sharptail in the ditch of the road. Not wanting to waste a training opportunity I turned the dog loose and worked her up towards the covey. She hooked out into the field, cast forward and cut back across catching the upwind side of the birds and spooking a few on the edge of the covey in the tall alfalfa. Not being able to see the dog at this point I was awaiting the ensuing chase and flush of the remainder of the birds. Nothing. I continued walking up all the while becoming more elated that she was standing for a stop to flush or even pointing other birds in the field. As I approached the remainder of the covey left and still no dog moving. I called for her and she immediately came to me - proudly carrying a very much alive Sharptail in her mouth. I really wish I had a camera at that point as I released the bird to fly away and when I finally arrived a mile down the road and relayed the story to the 70 yr. old Earl his only response was "Bullshit!"

[kninebirddog]

I do not let my pups eat birds or parts either

My deal is under 12 weeks old a pup can't do wrong..they are learning the field if they catch a bird or two and they carry it around they are learning to hold a bird and retrieve..though it may be directionally impaired on the retrieve..If they are toting their bird around I just play a game of bait and switch..I will pick the pup up and will hold them I will pet them gently and will not try and take their bird away I do not want them worrying about that when they first get to me.

After they are 10-12 weeks of age and had their free bird chase it is on to a check cord for little point and backs and then free runs in the field and play go with me games with me changing directions and let them figure out which way I am going

again it isn't a must but I enjoy watching a little pup one under 12 weeks old get that first stage light turn on