Dog smarter than the handler???

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:31 pm

Has anyone had a field trial dog that knows the difference in trialing and training?? My problem is this---I have a pointer that points and honor perfect every time we're out in the field training. It doesn't matter if we go to a different place or not or if runs by himself or with another dog. He'll point and steady to wing and shot. On trialing days he'll be a completely different dog, as if he had never been trained. He find birds but then point for a few seconds and then begin to play with it...He knows not to kill it. When I come around the corner or see him, he'll stand on point as if he didn't do any thing wrong...Except that he forget to wipe the feathers off his mouth and move the birds farther away from him!!!!!! He has been doing this since he's 3 years old and now I'm running out of ideas. I've tried hiding in a bush or tree far away from the birds and him but some how he knows the training game.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:50 pm

Seems to me he is collar wise... have you tried running him without a collar and then doing an ear pinch when he screws up. Sounds to me he knows what he did wrong by the time you got to him. Unless of course you force fetched him with the ear pinch.. and he goes in for a retrieve lol. If you used the ear pinch for the FF send me a pm and ill tell you a different way....

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:57 pm

All of my dogs know the difference between trialing and hunting. If I'm hunting as soon as a bird is shot and it falls, they break on thier own. If trialing they stay broke for the most part. Or should I say they still screw up. It's a dog's world. If you are hunting they have a collar and know the difference, in a trial they still know it's not on them. If you can before you run. but don't get caught, try putting a shock collar on and make them pay attention. Then run them and see if it makes a difference.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:19 pm

Yep. They get trial wise and it is tough to break.
Yes, the rules say no training on the trial grounds, but this is one of the uses for a good scout.

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:41 pm

I've tried ear pinch and had run him without the collar also..And without success..I had also tried running him on trial grounds 1 or 2 days prior to the running but he seems to know we're training..I thought may be it was the commotion of the gallery or other activities so I've even gone to the extreme of having a crowd joining me on the training days..Still no success...I then thought if I laid him off for awhile it would mess up his thinking..Nope, he knew better and would do the same even after a year of no activity.

SHNOOL · Post by **SHNOOL** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:10 pm

So far 3 for 3... Yes training and trialing, 2 different things, and the dogs know.

madmurph · Post by **madmurph** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:08 pm

Birdman, are you sure you aren't running my male vizsla? Sounds like a carbon copy. Here are a couple more suggestions.

1) If the sanctioning body (AKC, AF, etc.) allows your dog to wear two collars (and assuming you leave a flat collar on him at all times), just before your brace starts, put a second flat collar on him. Put it high on his neck and cinch it fairly tight with the buckle on the bottom. This may possibly make him think that he is wearing the e-collar. This is of course assuming that the dog has become collar wise. If they only allow one collar, tighten up his regular collar high on his neck with the buckle on the bottom.

2) You mentioned that you have trained on the trial grounds a couple of days before the trial. Consider trying this also. Rather than enter him in a trial, just go to the trial for the day and bring the dog along so he is in that trial environment all day that he is so used to. Leave him in the kennel in your truck or stake him out or whatever it is you do with him at a trial prior to your brace. At the end of the day when the trial is over, then go out on the grounds and train. He will think that he is running a trial and will likely commit his "trial errors" and you will be able to get some good corrections on him. If possible run him with a bracemate and do whatever else you can to replicate an exact trial brace. I know it's hard to go to a trial and not compete, but it is worth trying and missing a few entries if it will help.

I understand your frustration. My male vizsla is rock steady in training with or without an e-collar, regardless of the grounds we train at. In a hunt test, he wants to break at the shot. This just doesn't cut it in Master Hunter. He needs two more qualifying scores for his Master Hunter title. These are a couple strategies that I am employing. Best of luck to you.

madmurph · Post by **madmurph** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:10 pm

Birdman, I just noticed after I posted my reply that you're from northeast Wisconsin. I'm in Sheboygan. Perhaps we could hook up for some training. Send me a PM. I will do the same.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:48 pm

2) You mentioned that you have trained on the trial grounds a couple of days before the trial. Consider trying this also. Rather than enter him in a trial, just go to the trial for the day and bring the dog along so he is in that trial environment all day that he is so used to. Leave him in the kennel in your truck or stake him out or whatever it is you do with him at a trial prior to your brace. At the end of the day when the trial is over, then go out on the grounds and train. He will think that he is running a trial and will likely commit his "trial errors" and you will be able to get some good corrections on him. If possible run him with a bracemate and do whatever else you can to replicate an exact trial brace. I know it's hard to go to a trial and not compete, but it is worth trying and missing a few entries if it will help.

I like this idea

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:35 pm

madmurph--i had tried both your suggestions too..sad to say neither of them succeeded..i even tried without any collar on him and he still steady to wing and shot. but the very next morning i'd trial him on the very same ground and he points but still picks the bird as if he had never been worked. i'll pm you.

huntcrazed · Post by **huntcrazed** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:35 am

I do not do trials only hunting but an old pro trainer I know told me once when he was hunting his trial dogs a lot is when you stopped winning .

Some dogs can not do best on both so is up for you to decide which is more important since this is what the dog should be doing the most of.

Mario

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:14 am

madmurph wrote:Birdman, are you sure you aren't running my male vizsla? Sounds like a carbon copy. Here are a couple more suggestions.

1) If the sanctioning body (AKC, AF, etc.) allows your dog to wear two collars (and assuming you leave a flat collar on him at all times), just before your brace starts, put a second flat collar on him. Put it high on his neck and cinch it fairly tight with the buckle on the bottom. This may possibly make him think that he is wearing the e-collar. This is of course assuming that the dog has become collar wise. If they only allow one collar, tighten up his regular collar high on his neck with the buckle on the bottom.

2) You mentioned that you have trained on the trial grounds a couple of days before the trial. Consider trying this also. Rather than enter him in a trial, just go to the trial for the day and bring the dog along so he is in that trial environment all day that he is so used to. Leave him in the kennel in your truck or stake him out or whatever it is you do with him at a trial prior to your brace. At the end of the day when the trial is over, then go out on the grounds and train. He will think that he is running a trial and will likely commit his "trial errors" and you will be able to get some good corrections on him. If possible run him with a bracemate and do whatever else you can to replicate an exact trial brace. I know it's hard to go to a trial and not compete, but it is worth trying and missing a few entries if it will help.

.

I'm in the same boat with my older male.

When you stake him out or whatever, strap on the collar hours before you put him on the ground. Sometimes they forget that they have the collar on. Also, don't nick him or anything for handling or whatever when you are running him. Just strictly when he messes up on birds like he does. Then get on him. But for nothing else.

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:27 pm

Here is a picture of the dog I'm talking about. Today, at training he was steady to wing and shot. He didn't even flinch when a quail flushed about a foot from him. I sure wish this would be the case during trial...I'm still praying!!!!!

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:31 pm

Here is another pix of him steady to wing and shot on planted quail. Again, this was during training.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:46 pm

We had an HTA Branscum nickle bred female that was pretty black hearted and if you added any level excitement into the picture we could never get her honest. Some dogs can be like that..even when they think someone else can correct them

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:31 pm

Have you ever thought of breaking the dog without modern day gadgetry?

At this point you have nothing to lose by using a check cord, and leg work to break the dog without an e-collar. This may keep him honest in his bird work.

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