Gun Dog Forum

When I met the dame I didn't see much of an undercoat, I forgot to look when I met the sire. The pup has webs almost all the way to his nails. Retrieving is his best quality at 52 days. Well, that and his snoring. I guess I'm asking if anyone thinks I might have got a second tier GSP. He's an amazing pup, he will hunt great, and I'll love him no matter what. But if he doesn't get an undercoat do I need to keep him off ducks next fall?

Even if he had an undercoat, which he most likely won't, he would not have the waterproof haircoat of a coldwater retriever. Either commit to getting him a neoprene vest or keep him out of winter water. The GSP undercoat is fine and downy and retains water.

I don't understand. The undercoat is part of the GSP breed standard.

Webbed feet, does that confirm that all these solid liver and solid black gsps are a lab cross?

wills1235 wrote:I don't understand. The undercoat is part of the GSP breed standard.

As I thought the webbed paws were?

sckwest1 wrote:Webbed feet, does that confirm that all these solid liver and solid black gsps are a lab cross?

Charlie

GSPs have an undercoat?? Ive never seen one that had hair long enough for that!

All dogs have webbed feet. None of the shorthairs I've owned have had what I would call an undercoat. Frankly I wouldn't want them to.

Some GSPs are likely to have less of an undercoat compared to DKs and some GSP may not have one. GSP or DK, I would use a neoprene vest or towel dry them between retrieves.

The webbed feet feet help them climb trees when they get board waiting in the blind... I'm not saying a dog has done this just lol.

As for the lab cross:
I think this was done after the pointer strictly to bring the traditional color back into the breed.

ultracarry wrote:The webbed feet feet help them climb trees when they get board waiting in the blind... I'm not saying a dog has done this just lol.

As for the lab cross:
I think this was done after the pointer strictly to bring the traditional color back into the breed.

Don't you have a shih tzu to comb out or a Maltese who needs nail polish freshened or SOMETHING?

I would like to know what GSP breed standard specifies an undercoat, though.

Cajun Casey wrote:

ultracarry wrote:The webbed feet feet help them climb trees when they get board waiting in the blind... I'm not saying a dog has done this just lol.

As for the lab cross:
I think this was done after the pointer strictly to bring the traditional color back into the breed.

Don't you have a shih tzu to comb out or a Maltese who needs nail polish freshened or SOMETHING?

I would like to know what GSP breed standard specifies an undercoat, though.

Wow someone woke up this morning. Maybe you should go back into hiberation while you still have a large amount of fat stored as winter seems to be lingering.

As for coat in the breed standard there is not an undercoat..... per akc.

wills1235 wrote:I don't understand. The undercoat is part of the GSP breed standard.

I have never seen an under coat listed as part of the breed standard for GSPs or DKs. I have never owned a GSP, or even seen one, with an undercoat, although I am sure there could be some out there that have under coats.

Body mass will be a greater determinant of how well the dog will hold up in cold water. Although, tolerance for cold water will vary by dog, and probably by line. My advice would be to put a neoprene vest on the dog if you're going to waterfowl hunt with it when the water or air temps drop. That's what I do. By the time it gets too cold for my dog when it’s wearing a vest, it's too cold for me to be sitting in a duck blind anyway.

Nothing in the Standard mentions an undercoat....

Undercoat is not mentioned in any standard
pg 53 in der Deutsch Kurzhaar mentions the desireable coat

Boy, that "webbed feet" thing is old propaganda. When GSP's first came to this country that was a big selling point, at least we heard it alot in the 60's. Guess what, they all have webbed feet. All dogs everywhere. Check out a Pointer or Setter the next time you see one.

Same with the undercoat and the duck retrieving thing. GSP's just do not have cold water endurance, neither do any of the other "versatile" pointing breeds. Cold water endurance has next to nothing to do with coat, it has to do with body fat and body mass. Dogs such as the Lab simply have more of both.

We had a "versatile" GSP back in the 60's (webbed feet and all). You could take him out duck hunting. He would go into the water for pretty much anything. Then he would come back, sit in your lap, and shiver. You can send them all for a duck - once. But they just won't tolerate repeat, cold water retrieving. They do not have the body fat and mass for it.

GSP's just do not have cold water endurance, neither do any of the other "versatile" pointing breeds.

You are making a gross overstatement when you say neither do any of the other "versatile" pointing breeds.

Just not true.

The webbed feet thing was a myth in Britain back in the 60's too. The proud owners of the first 2 G.S.P.s I ever saw in the flesh informed me that not only did the breed have webbed feet but that their normal body temperature was a couple of degrees higher than that of any other breed in order to enable them to swim long distances in very cold weather . I was "impressed" enough to ask for a quick demo in a nearby small pond but I was told that neither dog had learned to swim yet !

I have had one G.S.P. with a very short, sparse and soft undercoat. It may have helped in cold weather if the dog was dry but didn't help keep out either the cold or the water when he had to swim for game in winter.
If duck hunting was my sport I'd much prefer a lab.

Bill T.

I have one GSP with no undercoat to speak of and one that does have a decent undercoat. Given my experience, hunting types and style, the thicker coat is more desireable.....not so much for cold weather or water work, but for durability.....less cuts and abrasions...

I've never seen an appreciable undercoat on most GSPs either.

No GSP coat is going to protect it fully in serious cold water retrieving conditions - use a vest. However, the desireable coat should be thick enough to give some insulation during cold weather, as well as protection from cuts and abrasions as Prairiegoat mentions. Thickness and density is probably more important than length of the hair, for warmth and protection. This has to be balanced, though, by a need for heat tolerance as well.

The desired coat texture and density tends to repel water, try giving such a GSP a bath! A coat like this is harsh to the touch, water tends to roll off of it rather than soak in, and the dog shakes the water off easily and dries quickly. The liver or black hair is usually softer and shorter than the white hairs, so on a solid or dark roan dog run your hand back against the lay of the coat to determine harshness and thickness. Length does not always translate into better - I've seen a couple of GSPs with a long, thick coat that never dried off - because of a softer texture it retained water rather than repelling it and these dogs stayed particularly cold in wet, cold conditions.

I think that was a fairly rude way to approach newer posters. Unless of course they actually were kidding. This forum seems to have gone awry latley. Sorry, but I don't want any feed back to that as I to am a newbie trying to learn more every time I visit.


I guess I just want to impress, be a little more open minded.................how long and how many mistakes did it take you to get where you are?

Not everything is a joke if you don't know any better...That attitude makes you seem pompus.

twofeathers wrote:I think that was a fairly rude way to approach newer posters. Unless of course they actually were kidding. This forum seems to have gone awry latley. Sorry, but I don't want any feed back to that as I to am a newbie trying to learn more every time I visit.


I guess I just want to impress, be a little more open minded.................how long and how many mistakes did it take you to get where you are?

Not everything is a joke if you don't know any better...That attitude makes you seem pompus.

It worries me that someone would feel the need to ask the original question because it makes me think they have been misled on the attributes and abilities of the breed.

Cajun Casey wrote:

ultracarry wrote:The webbed feet feet help them climb trees when they get board waiting in the blind... I'm not saying a dog has done this just lol.

As for the lab cross:
I think this was done after the pointer strictly to bring the traditional color back into the breed.

Don't you have a shih tzu to comb out or a Maltese who needs nail polish freshened or SOMETHING?

I would like to know what GSP breed standard specifies an undercoat, though.

So you would feel more comfortable making fun of the original post?

twofeathers wrote:
So you would feel more comfortable making fun of the original post?

I wasn't making fun of anything. UC has stated in the past that he has an anklebiter.

As far as the original post, I felt a little ill reading it. Rescues get in more than a few GSPs that are owner relinquishes because they won't do water retrieves.

Sorry I went over my info again, and there is indeed no mention of the undercoat in any breed standard. In the book "The German Shorthaired Pointer" by David Gowdey, the author addresses the issue of the undercoat and the lack of a breed standard starting on page 37. If anyone has any feedback on this passage I'd be interested in hearing it. And have no fear for insulting me as a newbie poster. After all, I know everything I read on the internet is the god's honest truth.

wills1235 wrote:Sorry I went over my info again, and there is indeed no mention of the undercoat in any breed standard. In the book "The German Shorthaired Pointer" by David Gowdey, the author addresses the issue of the undercoat and the lack of a breed standard starting on page 37. If anyone has any feedback on this passage I'd be interested in hearing it. And have no fear for insulting me as a newbie poster. After all, I know everything I read on the internet is the god's honest truth.

\

I actually have Dave's book. I'll dig it up and take a look.

I always wonder why people try to make waterdogs out of shorthaired dogs? If the air/water temps are not too severely cold, I can see someone using a shorthaired dog, but IMO if you'd try to put a GSP or one of my Pointers up against my Lab in MY duckboat in December or January, you'd be running the risk of freezing your dog to death.

I've heard people say (not particularly on here) that "I'd never send my dog on a water retrieve that I would'nt jump in myself" - Those people are either crazy, or fair weather waterfowlers.

My brother had a GSP that would retreive ducks. Heck, he'd retreive a refrigerator if he could find a way to drag it back. However I wouldn't risk taking him late season waterfowling. You could do it in the early teal season, & also probably in early November, Just depends. I understand not everyone can have as many dogs as I do, either. I am very fortunate and I also understand the norm is that most people only have 1 good dog and try to do the most they can with it. To those people I just say, be careful and use common sense for the sake of your hound.

The webbed feet feet help them climb trees

Sp thats why my 3 year old climbs trees. He gets way up there trying to get at the little tweety birds.


Old time Germany hunters had no guns, GSPs paced the shore and the ducks would come in, hunter would throw a net and catch them ducks so water retrieval wanst needed as in todays duck hunter. Heck many Germans cant even own a gun still today. Takes a few hoops to get thru, my cousins there love to come here and shoot up my ammo. One Uncle is a hunter/shooter, he likes to hunt hogs more than any other game. Dont own shorthairs tho.

My brother in law will tell you tales of hunting in Africa using spears and bows, no gun ownership there for the civilians. We are so very lucky here in this regard.

My brother in law will tell you tales of hunting in Africa using spears and bows, no gun ownership there for the civilians. We are so very lucky here in this regard.

And it is a constant fight to keep that right. IMO, too many of us take it for granted.

Charlie